[vundy33]

Here's my thinking. If Israel does decide to go it alone, I think you're statement goes in reverse. I think it is the United States that does not have the balls NOT to help them. Whomever it may be can talk all the big talk in public they want, there is way too much at stake for the US to let Israel go down the tubes. The US simply will not let that happen. Mark that one down.

I can see that...

[vundy33]

I don't get aggravated that Israel hasn't helped us out in these wars...the reason is obvious, they're Jews. It would be even worse on us if they helped.

I just hope if there is conflict, we don't have to commit any ground troops. Iran has the power to inflict quite a bit of damage. They've been propping up the Taliban for years, even though some of their special forces took a few Afghan towns with our guys in 2001 and 2002. Just tired at us being at war is all. Not to mention the fact that I'd try everything I could to get back in to help out, and I don't want back in.

If this war happens, it will have very, very far reaching consequences. I want to enjoy life a bit and let our country fix itself some before then.

[TheRealThing]

Israel wasn't part of the coalition in the first gulf war. they patrolled northern iraq for about a day unilaterally, before withdrawing at the request of bush. and i'm not sure that they've ever backed up since. or prior for that matter.

After checking the sources, looks like Israel has never backed the United States in battle.

Oh really? per Mitchell Bard;

The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait dramatically illustrated the potential of regional states to threaten vital U.S. interests. Israel again demonstrated its reliability as it maintained a low profile and absorbed the Scuds.

Israel's posture reflected a deliberate political decision in response to American requests. Nevertheless, Israel did aid the United States' successful campaign to roll back Iraq's aggression.

- The IDF was the sole military force in the region that could successfully challenge the Iraqi army. That fact, which Saddam Hussein understood, was a deterrent to further Iraqi aggression.

- By warning that it would take military measures if any Iraqi troops enter Jordan, Israel, in effect, guaranteed Jordan's territorial integrity against Iraqi aggression. Jordan's continued existence as a buffer state between Iraq and Israel is indispensable for the maintenance of regional stability.

- The United States benefitted from the use of Israeli-made Have Nap air-launched missiles on its B-52 bombers. The Navy, meanwhile, used Israeli Pioneer pilotless drones for reconnaissance in the Gulf.

- Israel provided mine plows that were used to clear paths for allied forces through Iraqi mine fields.

- Mobile bridges provided by Israel were employed by the U.S. Marine Corps.

- Israel Aircraft Industries developed conformal fuel tanks that enhance the range of F-15 aircraft. These were used in the Gulf.

- Israeli recommendations, based upon system performance observations led to several software changes that make the Patriot a more capable missile defense system.

- General Dynamics has implemented a variety of Israeli modifications to improve the worldwide F-16 aircraft fleet including structural enhancements, software changes, increased capability landing gear, radio improvements and avionic modifications.

- An Israeli-produced helicopter night-targeting system was used to increase the Cobra helicopter's night-fighting capabilities.

- Israel also produced the canister for the highly successful Tomahawk missile.

- Night-vision goggles used by U.S. forces were supplied by Israel.

- A low altitude warning system produced and developed in Israel was utilized on Blackhawk helicopters.

- Other Israeli equipment provided to U.S. forces included flack vests, gas masks and sand bags.

- Israel offered the United States the use of military and hospital facilities. U.S. ships utilized Haifa port shipyard maintenance and support on their way to the Gulf.

- Even in its low-profile mode, Israeli cooperation was extremely valuable: Israel's military intelligence has focused on Iraq much more carefully over the years than has the U.S. intelligence community. Thus, the Israelis were able to provide Washington with detailed tactical intelligence on Iraqi military activities. Defense Secretary Cheney said, for example that the U.S. utilized Israeli information about western Iraq in its search for Scud missile launchers.

During a visit to Israel May 30, 1991, Defense Secretary Cheney said: "We think that the cooperation that we were able to engage in during the war in the Gulf...emphasizes how important the [U.S.-Israel] relationship is and how well it works when put to the test."

[vundy33]

One thing is for sure about Israel, they sure do know how to make good weapons.

[ronald reagan]

Oh really? per Mitchell Bard;

The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait dramatically illustrated the potential of regional states to threaten vital U.S. interests. Israel again demonstrated its reliability as it maintained a low profile and absorbed the Scuds.

Israel's posture reflected a deliberate political decision in response to American requests. Nevertheless, Israel did aid the United States' successful campaign to roll back Iraq's aggression.

- The IDF was the sole military force in the region that could successfully challenge the Iraqi army. That fact, which Saddam Hussein understood, was a deterrent to further Iraqi aggression.

- By warning that it would take military measures if any Iraqi troops enter Jordan, Israel, in effect, guaranteed Jordan's territorial integrity against Iraqi aggression. Jordan's continued existence as a buffer state between Iraq and Israel is indispensable for the maintenance of regional stability.

- The United States benefitted from the use of Israeli-made Have Nap air-launched missiles on its B-52 bombers. The Navy, meanwhile, used Israeli Pioneer pilotless drones for reconnaissance in the Gulf.

- Israel provided mine plows that were used to clear paths for allied forces through Iraqi mine fields.

- Mobile bridges provided by Israel were employed by the U.S. Marine Corps.

- Israel Aircraft Industries developed conformal fuel tanks that enhance the range of F-15 aircraft. These were used in the Gulf.

- Israeli recommendations, based upon system performance observations led to several software changes that make the Patriot a more capable missile defense system.

- General Dynamics has implemented a variety of Israeli modifications to improve the worldwide F-16 aircraft fleet including structural enhancements, software changes, increased capability landing gear, radio improvements and avionic modifications.

- An Israeli-produced helicopter night-targeting system was used to increase the Cobra helicopter's night-fighting capabilities.

- Israel also produced the canister for the highly successful Tomahawk missile.

- Night-vision goggles used by U.S. forces were supplied by Israel.

- A low altitude warning system produced and developed in Israel was utilized on Blackhawk helicopters.

- Other Israeli equipment provided to U.S. forces included flack vests, gas masks and sand bags.

- Israel offered the United States the use of military and hospital facilities. U.S. ships utilized Haifa port shipyard maintenance and support on their way to the Gulf.

- Even in its low-profile mode, Israeli cooperation was extremely valuable: Israel's military intelligence has focused on Iraq much more carefully over the years than has the U.S. intelligence community. Thus, the Israelis were able to provide Washington with detailed tactical intelligence on Iraqi military activities. Defense Secretary Cheney said, for example that the U.S. utilized Israeli information about western Iraq in its search for Scud missile launchers.

During a visit to Israel May 30, 1991, Defense Secretary Cheney said: "We think that the cooperation that we were able to engage in during the war in the Gulf...emphasizes how important the [U.S.-Israel] relationship is and how well it works when put to the test."

For the vast majority of the things mentioned, we bought or obtained from Israel. For instance, in Afghanistan, medicine and medical supplies are manufactured in Israel. Nearly all of the gear and supplies were obtained over a 10 year period and from private companies, not the Israeli government. Its not as if they were all airdropped in over baghdad during a bombing run.This does not equate with them being an ally or coalition partner. Israel is all about Israel. And we should be all about them, defending theirselves.

[TheRealThing]

For the vast majority of the things mentioned, we bought or obtained from Israel. For instance, in Afghanistan, medicine and medical supplies are manufactured in Israel. Nearly all of the gear and supplies were obtained over a 10 year period and from private companies, not the Israeli government. Its not as if they were all airdropped in over baghdad during a bombing run.This does not equate with them being an ally or coalition partner. Israel is all about Israel. And we should be all about them, defending theirselves.

Spin it any way you want, combat is not the only beneficial means of aid. Israel is our ally and they can be counted on. Our own state department has framed the level of assistance they were willing to accept from the nation of Israel as I have mentioned. You not much of a fan of the nation Israel?

There is one country over there that shares our ideas of freedom and you just want to cut them loose. There is coming a time in the relatively near future when the bombs will fly and troops will be called on. We will need all the help we can get. With our treasury empty, (large parts of which are in the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood and other world haters) and our capacity to wage war erroded and with the crosshairs of sequestration drawing a bead on the integrity of our armed services we can't have too many friends of the caliber of Israel.

[vundy33]

Our forces are just fine, and would do great in any war I think. They're just tired.

A little fun fact for you all...we, the U.S., are hardly ever allowed to go on an operation in Afghan without Afghan forces. That's not all that bad...what is bad though, is our military isn't aloud to sneak up on a target. We have to assault directly. Things like that are the main reason our military is so tired.

I'm not worried a bit about our ability to wage war...our military can do it, and can wipe anyone on earth out. What I am worried about though is losing more troops and the constant deployments they've endured over the last decade. It's been tough on our forces, especially the most important, special operations. That's our strongest weapon I think, and they're tired...but they can and will do anything our civilian leadership asks them to do, and do it better than anyone else. Just don't want to lose more young people, and I don't think we should get involved in conflict unless we are absolutely forced to.

[Ballers]

Scary stuff to even think about.

[RunItUpTheGut]

Since Vietnam, wars havent been the same.
Were not fighting head to head with enemies. We would destroy anyone if a war broke that was similar to the world wars.

The reason were having troops die now is because of cowardice radical freaks who hide in civilian clothing.

[vundy33]

The enemy isn't as cowardly as ya think. Usually, the higher up you go, the bigger the cowards are. The young ones, and guys who just need money, will fight in a second, and die...but the commanders are usually huge cowards that only think of themselves. It's not as easy for them to blend in in Afghanistan as it is in Iraq...it's more country fighting, and a bad guy is pretty easy to point out. If he has sneakers on, you can almost guarantee he's a bad guy, lol. Just little things like that. But they'll fight, but always either die or run. They can't win. In my opinion, Al Qaeda is usually made up of many more cowards than the Taliban. Arabs tend to be like that...Pashtuns in Afghan, not so much.

Our boys still destroy them, bad....it's just tough these days because our boys have one hand tied behind their backs.

Also, there has been a huge rise in green on blue attacks, which is Afghan National Police and Afghan Army attacking our guys. It's usually over something little, but in some cases it can be attributed to the Taliban. It's a huge problem, and this has been the worst year for it by far. It's usually ANP that do the backstabbing, but Afghan Army do it too. It's a bitch, because our guys take those idiots on every operation now.

Iran has historically had problems with the Taliban, but they've supported them while we've been fighting them. There's been countless weapon caches, intel, IED ingredients, ect., that has shown Iranian involvement over the years, it just doesn't make the news these days. I think it was a mistake that we didn't really do anything when we found proof of Iran helping the Taliban out...but hell, the Paki's have been giving them aid for just as long, and we still send millions to them.

This shit never ends dudes...

[vundy33]

And don't forget about Jordan guys...they've been a hell of an ally through all of this.

[Deathstar 80]

I forgot to tell everyone, but I was watching Fox News a few days ago and I saw a segment where I think it was a retired general said that Iran was probably making threats of World War III in order to discourage anyone (more specifically, us) from helping Israel.

Also, I wanted to tell everyone about President Ahmedinejad's speech at the United Nations a few days ago. I didn't watch his entire speech, but I read some of his speech. He didn't talk much about the United States or Israel like he usually does, but he did talk about the twelfth Imam quite a bit.

Our forces are just fine, and would do great in any war I think. They're just tired.

A little fun fact for you all...we, the U.S., are hardly ever allowed to go on an operation in Afghan without Afghan forces. That's not all that bad...what is bad though, is our military isn't aloud to sneak up on a target. We have to assault directly. Things like that are the main reason our military is so tired.

I'm not worried a bit about our ability to wage war...our military can do it, and can wipe anyone on earth out. What I am worried about though is losing more troops and the constant deployments they've endured over the last decade. It's been tough on our forces, especially the most important, special operations. That's our strongest weapon I think, and they're tired...but they can and will do anything our civilian leadership asks them to do, and do it better than anyone else. Just don't want to lose more young people, and I don't think we should get involved in conflict unless we are absolutely forced to.

I completely agree with you vundy33 with this. But we can't avoid war when the people who want to kill us are trying to build a nuclear weapon. If we set "a red line" as Prime Minister Netanuahu mentioned in his United Nations speech, it would greatly discourage Iran from trying to build a nuclear weapon. And if Iran continues to build a nuclear weapon past that "red line", that gives us just cause to attack Iran and prevents Iran from claiming "innocence" in the matter.

And by the way, I also wanted to add what I said about destroying the mindset of radical Islam. I've been thinking and have realized that it would probably be very difficult for Christianity to destroy radical Islam simply because it's difficult to try and talk to someone about the bible when they have been raised to passionately hate you and be completely ignorant in their own radical beliefs. Billy Graham talked about how there's a limit that an individual can reach in that if that individual sins enough, their heart becomes hardened enough to where the gospel has no effect on them and, therefore, they have no hope of being saved. It's sad to mention that, but I personally believe at least some of these radical Islamists are in that condition since they have so much hatred for others and they're so obsessed and closed-minded about their radical religion. Therefore, preaching the gospel to them would have little to no chance of converting them. I've never met a radical Islamist, but judging the "savage beasts" who are willing to kill others for their own religious beliefs, that's how I would judge them.

[vundy33]

I forgot to tell everyone, but I was watching Fox News a few days ago and I saw a segment where I think it was a retired general said that Iran was probably making threats of World War III in order to discourage anyone (more specifically, us) from helping Israel.

Also, I wanted to tell everyone about President Ahmedinejad's speech at the United Nations a few days ago. I didn't watch his entire speech, but I read some of his speech. He didn't talk much about the United States or Israel like he usually does, but he did talk about the twelfth Imam quite a bit.



I completely agree with you vundy33 with this. But we can't avoid war when the people who want to kill us are trying to build a nuclear weapon. If we set "a red line" as Prime Minister Netanuahu mentioned in his United Nations speech, it would greatly discourage Iran from trying to build a nuclear weapon. And if Iran continues to build a nuclear weapon past that "red line", that gives us just cause to attack Iran and prevents Iran from claiming "innocence" in the matter.

And by the way, I also wanted to add what I said about destroying the mindset of radical Islam. I've been thinking and have realized that it would probably be very difficult for Christianity to destroy radical Islam simply because it's difficult to try and talk to someone about the bible when they have been raised to passionately hate you and be completely ignorant in their own radical beliefs. Billy Graham talked about how there's a limit that an individual can reach in that if that individual sins enough, their heart becomes hardened enough to where the gospel has no effect on them and, therefore, they have no hope of being saved. It's sad to mention that, but I personally believe at least some of these radical Islamists are in that condition since they have so much hatred for others and they're so obsessed and closed-minded about their radical religion. Therefore, preaching the gospel to them would have little to no chance of converting them. I've never met a radical Islamist, but judging the "savage beasts" who are willing to kill others for their own religious beliefs, that's how I would judge them.

I don't think Iran would hit us...it would be the end of them. I don't think a nuclear Iran would hit Israel either, no matter how much they say they will. Iran makes alot of threats, but hardly ever go through with them, even when we dare them too. But, I'm sure that Israel wouldn't want to take the chance and I don't blame them. Nothing good could come out of a nuclear Iran.

On the last paragraph...would you listen to a Muslim trying to bring you over to their side, and "save" you? No, you wouldn't...and they're not going to listen to any Christian. Christianity, and white people in general, have brought these people nothing but bad things...most never see any of the aid we give them because it's all sucked up by the wealthy few. But they care about their god as much as you care about yours...and alot of them, especially uneducated, are easy to manipulate..a lot like what's happening in our own country right now. The problem isn't with their religion, it's with their leadership who know better...look at Jordan. It's as Muslim as any other country, but their leadership isn't only looking out for themselves, and now that country is one of the hottest vacation spots on earth. The people are the same everywhere...the problem is the few behind the scenes pulling the strings.

The worst thing you could do to a Muslim is treat them like they're stupid animals and talk down to them...it's been proven over and over, it doesn't work with any group of people, not just them. Trying to convert them wouldn't do any good because they are not going to change. Fix their leadership, don't make them feel like they're just pawns in a foreigners game, and boom...a lot of problems will end. No group of people on earth will put up with a foreigner coming into their land and giving them orders...just because Muslims don't like it doesn't make them evil.

All I'm saying is, watch what you wish for. This country can't handle another conflict, it just can't. It will be the end of us. A lot of people who asked for these wars we're just now getting out of ate their words real quick. This isn't the America of old...we are not on top anymore, and we don't represent the best of the best anymore. We can't just go to war anytime we want and rebound from it like nothing happened. These actions have consequences, and if we become another occupier, we're so screwed. God knows Israel won't be able to chill in Iran.

Hopefully Israel hits Iran's nuclear capability hard, and ends it. Because if we have to intervene on the ground, it's going to get messy, fast. It'll make the bloodiest times in Afghan and Iraq look like a weekend vacation. I just dread it.

[TheRealVille]

I don't think Iran would hit us...it would be the end of them. I don't think a nuclear Iran would hit Israel either, no matter how much they say they will. Iran makes alot of threats, but hardly ever go through with them, even when we dare them too. But, I'm sure that Israel wouldn't want to take the chance and I don't blame them. Nothing good could come out of a nuclear Iran.

On the last paragraph...would you listen to a Muslim trying to bring you over to their side, and "save" you? No, you wouldn't...and they're not going to listen to any Christian. Christianity, and white people in general, have brought these people nothing but bad things...most never see any of the aid we give them because it's all sucked up by the wealthy few. But they care about their god as much as you care about yours...and alot of them, especially uneducated, are easy to manipulate..a lot like what's happening in our own country right now. The problem isn't with their religion, it's with their leadership who know better...look at Jordan. It's as Muslim as any other country, but their leadership isn't only looking out for themselves, and now that country is one of the hottest vacation spots on earth. The people are the same everywhere...the problem is the few behind the scenes pulling the strings.

The worst thing you could do to a Muslim is treat them like they're stupid animals and talk down to them...it's been proven over and over, it doesn't work with any group of people, not just them. Trying to convert them wouldn't do any good because they are not going to change. Fix their leadership, don't make them feel like they're just pawns in a foreigners game, and boom...a lot of problems will end. No group of people on earth will put up with a foreigner coming into their land and giving them orders...just because Muslims don't like it doesn't make them evil.

All I'm saying is, watch what you wish for. This country can't handle another conflict, it just can't. It will be the end of us. A lot of people who asked for these wars we're just now getting out of ate their words real quick. This isn't the America of old...we are not on top anymore, and we don't represent the best of the best anymore. We can't just go to war anytime we want and rebound from it like nothing happened. These actions have consequences, and if we become another occupier, we're so screwed. God knows Israel won't be able to chill in Iran.

Hopefully Israel hits Iran's nuclear capability hard, and ends it. Because if we have to intervene on the ground, it's going to get messy, fast. It'll make the bloodiest times in Afghan and Iraq look like a weekend vacation. I just dread it.

Thank you. You are one that actually knows what war is doing to us, and that we can't afford anymore right now.

[vundy33]

We're coming up on a world that is dominated by Russia and China, and if we keep going the route we have been, like policing the world (even when most of the time it's because there's just no one else who will step up to the plate and do it), we are going to deliver it right into their hands. It's just inevitable, I never thought I'd see the end in my lifetime, but with how the world is now, and us being in so much debt, I don't see us getting out of it, I really don't. And we have no one else to thank but ourselves.

[Deathstar 80]

I don't think Iran would hit us...it would be the end of them. I don't think a nuclear Iran would hit Israel either, no matter how much they say they will. Iran makes alot of threats, but hardly ever go through with them, even when we dare them too. But, I'm sure that Israel wouldn't want to take the chance and I don't blame them. Nothing good could come out of a nuclear Iran.

On the last paragraph...would you listen to a Muslim trying to bring you over to their side, and "save" you? No, you wouldn't...and they're not going to listen to any Christian. Christianity, and white people in general, have brought these people nothing but bad things...most never see any of the aid we give them because it's all sucked up by the wealthy few. But they care about their god as much as you care about yours...and alot of them, especially uneducated, are easy to manipulate..a lot like what's happening in our own country right now. The problem isn't with their religion, it's with their leadership who know better...look at Jordan. It's as Muslim as any other country, but their leadership isn't only looking out for themselves, and now that country is one of the hottest vacation spots on earth. The people are the same everywhere...the problem is the few behind the scenes pulling the strings.

The worst thing you could do to a Muslim is treat them like they're stupid animals and talk down to them...it's been proven over and over, it doesn't work with any group of people, not just them. Trying to convert them wouldn't do any good because they are not going to change. Fix their leadership, don't make them feel like they're just pawns in a foreigners game, and boom...a lot of problems will end. No group of people on earth will put up with a foreigner coming into their land and giving them orders...just because Muslims don't like it doesn't make them evil.

All I'm saying is, watch what you wish for. This country can't handle another conflict, it just can't. It will be the end of us. A lot of people who asked for these wars we're just now getting out of ate their words real quick. This isn't the America of old...we are not on top anymore, and we don't represent the best of the best anymore. We can't just go to war anytime we want and rebound from it like nothing happened. These actions have consequences, and if we become another occupier, we're so screwed. God knows Israel won't be able to chill in Iran.

Hopefully Israel hits Iran's nuclear capability hard, and ends it. Because if we have to intervene on the ground, it's going to get messy, fast. It'll make the bloodiest times in Afghan and Iraq look like a weekend vacation. I just dread it.

Iran has already made it clear that they want to destroy Israel. President Ahmadinejad believes in the coming of the Twelfth Imam, and if you study that, it means he wants to create as much chaos as possible to bring the Islamic end-times. Ahmadinejad hates the Jews and wants to "wipe Israel off of the map". If you don't take him seriously, we will live through the second holocaust. You're acting like the Israeli leadership before Prime Minister Netanyahu, when they thought Ahmadinejad was just kidding. Thankfully, Netanyahu knows Iran isn't kidding.

Vundy33, you don't understand the average radical Islamist in the Middle East. You're treating them like they're an average innocent person, when they're not. Their beliefs require them to hate non-radical Muslims. I'll mention it again that I've provided in the past plenty of evidence that the average Islamist in the Middle East isn't what us Americans are used to - a peaceful Muslim - but are instead very anti-Jewish. Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham, said that Islam is a very violent religion, and he's right to point that out. Again, it's not known here in America because we thankfully have peaceful Muslims. But in the Middle East, there are Muslims who torture Christians, Jews, and anyone else to death who aren't radical Islamists. That's what makes the Islamists in the Middle East evil.

If you remember Vundy33, I was the first one who was pointing out the coming economic collapse. I know what our country is facing financially right now. However, all we have to do to prevent Iran from becoming a threat is to bomb their nuclear facilities. That's it. We don't have to do anything else. By all means, bring our troops home after that and never fight another battle in Iran again.

[vundy33]

Iran has already made it clear that they want to destroy Israel. President Ahmadinejad believes in the coming of the Twelfth Imam, and if you study that, it means he wants to create as much chaos as possible to bring the Islamic end-times. Ahmadinejad hates the Jews and wants to "wipe Israel off of the map". If you don't take him seriously, we will live through the second holocaust. You're acting like the Israeli leadership before Prime Minister Netanyahu, when they thought Ahmadinejad was just kidding. Thankfully, Netanyahu knows Iran isn't kidding.

Vundy33, you don't understand the average radical Islamist in the Middle East. You're treating them like they're an average innocent person, when they're not. Their beliefs require them to hate non-radical Muslims. I'll mention it again that I've provided in the past plenty of evidence that the average Islamist in the Middle East isn't what us Americans are used to - a peaceful Muslim - but are instead very anti-Jewish. Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham, said that Islam is a very violent religion, and he's right to point that out. Again, it's not known here in America because we thankfully have peaceful Muslims. But in the Middle East, there are Muslims who torture Christians, Jews, and anyone else to death who aren't radical Islamists. That's what makes the Islamists in the Middle East evil.

If you remember Vundy33, I was the first one who was pointing out the coming economic collapse. I know what our country is facing financially right now. However, all we have to do to prevent Iran from becoming a threat is to bomb their nuclear facilities. That's it. We don't have to do anything else. By all means, bring our troops home after that and never fight another battle in Iran again.

Man, I understand every kind of Muslim you can think up, hell I speak their language. You and most other here act like every Muslim is a killer, when they're not. Most of the fighters that actually pick up a weapon and fight us in Afghanistan just do it to make money, not out of this evil hate for America.

How can you criticize them for being anti-Jewish when you're anti-Islam yourself?! They will always hate Israel, and Israel will always hate them, it's just how it is.

Iran has made every threat in the book, and hasn't carried any of them out besides killing their own people. You are talking about the same Israel that hands over hundreds of prisoners for one or two Israelis. No matter how much you think you know these people, you don't. Like I said, Israel shouldn't think Iran won't hit them even though they bullshit about everything.

It's easy to say we can just bomb their sites, but it's not that easy to pull off. They've prepared for years against just that kind of attack. If we could do it with bombs alone, then great, I'm all for it, but we can't. It will just have to be addressed later on.

[vundy33]

The thing that fuels the hate people have for us, which is quite a lot of people and not just Muslims, is the way we roll into countries and start calling the shots, in addition to the rest of our foreign policy...this makes people want to hurt us more than any religion does. If there were as many evil radical Muslims as you think there is, and if the entire Middle East is just plain evil, then why are we so successful in fighting them? Why do quite a few of Middle Eastern countries let us establish military bases?

There's just no need to lump all the good people into the same group as the bad...you start doing that, and you're on their level. We are better than that. You have to know your enemy to beat them, and assuming they are all bad screws us. Like I said, once you start grouping them all together, you're doing the same thing that they do. It's just a waste of time.

It's easy to talk about bombing Iran's nuclear facilities, but it's another thing to pull it off. How do we get into their airspace and get back out without losing aircraft? Will our bombs even be strong enough to get the job done? What will their retaliation be? If we hit them, will they hit us back in Afghanistan? If they did decide to do that, they could hit some huge bases and rack up a lot of casualties before we could get our aircraft up and going. The questions go on and on. Once we get involved, there is no getting out. There is so much at stake here, it's worth the time that the Israelis and our government has given it. Especially since the Straight of Hormuz is one of the most important areas on Earth to us. Iran is dangerous...and I am worried what they can do when and if they're backed into a corner.

I just hope Israel takes the lead, like they should. They are the people who are in the most danger when it comes to a nuclear Iran, therefore I think they should take care of it on their own as much as they possibly can. I think the power of Israel's military is really, really underestimated by most...and that's just how they like it. I really think they would be able to pull an air operation off with not much help needed from us...we'd be pretty useful when it comes to intel and our naval forces, but other than that, I don't see us needing to help them out that much. I just wish if they were going to do it, they'd get it done already. The close they get to getting the bomb, with the knowledge that we or Israel could hit at any time, the harder it gets for us to pull it off successfully and it gives them more time to prepare. Hopefully, the ordnance we or Israel uses can get the job done without having to put in troops.

[Deathstar 80]

Vundy33, I want to apologize to you. I personally thought it was the normal culture of the Middle East to have radical Islamic beliefs. However, now that I think about it, I admit that I'm wrong. Because of the way things have been in the Middle East recently with the protesting at American embassies, my perception towards Middle Eastern Muslims has changed quite a bit because of that. But you can't deny that there are groups of people in the Middle East who hate Israel simply because they were taught to hate Israel. Here is some proof that I've found:







Egypt Demonstrators: "The Gas Chambers are Ready"

http://www.bluegrassrivals.com/forum/sho...p?t=117181
^In this link, refer to what I posted on post #14.


We should also find out if Iran is truly serious about attacking Israel. First, I would like to point out that it's common sense to know that Iran is creating a nuclear weapon. They're not getting uranium to make a nuclear power plant. They obviously don't need a nuclear power plant. They have tons of oil in their country.

Therefore, we should ask if Iran would be willing to attack Israel. That's what we should be asking. But if this is the case, why can't we go ahead and create a "red line" as Prime Minister Netanyahu proposed and prevent Iran from having a nuclear weapon? By what you've said vundy33 in that Iran never follows through on threats, they would immediately stop making nuclear weapons and this entire mess would be over. But I think Ahmadinejad will continue to create nuclear weapons no matter what. I think the reason why Ahmadinejad has been willing to back away from other threats is because he doesn't want to risk his one major goal - which is to create a nuclear weapon. And if Ahmadinejad is a radical Islamist, then he would be fully willing to attack Israel. Do you guys think Ahmadinejad is a radical Islamist?

[TheRealVille]

Religion has killed more innocent people than anything else ever has.

[ronald reagan]

Religion has killed more innocent people than anything else ever has.

ummm, no.

Disease has killed more innocent people than anything else.

[TheRealVille]

ummm, no.

Disease has killed more innocent people than anything else.

I'll give you that one, then religion. The point is, religion kills innocents.

[ronald reagan]

religion kills innocents.

So does inhaling water? :moon:

[RunItUpTheGut]

Im hoping aliens come in and put us all out of our misery

[judgementday]

In assiting the ROTC twice a year with their FTX events and playing the roll of the OPFOR, our goal is to make each simulation as real as possible for when they are over seas. We dress as insurgents, some of us have even take on their accents when in the role, etc... Even though I have never been overseas, I have studied their culture and spoke with soldiers, and middle eastern students to try and understand where these people are coming from.

The event is broken into "lanes" in which the cadets have an objection and we are there to cause as much confusion as possible whether it is with weapons or just giving them the run around. Since we bagan participating in this, to my surprise, the lane evaluators get pissed the most when the cadets screw up during a non-shooting lane where it is just public relations. Just making the wrong body movement can turn off a tribal leader or spark a gun fight. So it is imparative whether they like it or not, that they learn their customs while they are in their country.

The point that I am trying to make as Vundy has eluded to is that we have made a bad habit of grouping all muslims into the same group. From what I have been told and learned, one on one interactions with these people is what is most important. Showing them that we are not "evil" is what, IMO, will keep WWIII at bay.

We are hated over there because of their media, just as ours here show only the rioting.

[Benchwarmer]

President Oblamo has everything under control.

[Deathstar 80]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10/08/...e-warhead/