[The Urban Sombrero]

I'm sorry to hear that your company is floundering, I hope you do much better soon. However, national defense is the primary responsibility of the federal government and I am grateful for same. If this is a Military-Industrial complex argument not only am I not interested in pursing, I do not accept that it has anything to do with the poor.

Amos does refer to poor people being mistreated by a godless society, but America bears no faint similarity to the people of Amos' day. We go the extra mile in this country, citing Christian values I might add, to help the poor. Many of those who are getting help, don't need help. Now, they may well need an attitude adjustment, but free everything is an altogether different situation and God never suggests a free ride for the able bodied. In fact, it is quite the opposite; 1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV)
"8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

The liberal argument is absurd. First they say only heartless Republicans would stand in the way of who knows how many illegals pouring in here to find jobs, which they always find BTW. Second, they say those who were born and raised here can't find work because there are no jobs. Anybody else see an inconsistency with the two talking points? I know a lot of people think they're too good to do many of the jobs that illegal immigrants hold, but there are jobs.

It is an economic justice argument. It is a "third seal" argument, a rider on a black horse holding a pair of scales saying, "a quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine" argument.

[TheRealThing]

It is an economic justice argument. It is a "third seal" argument, a rider on a black horse holding a pair of scales saying, "a quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine" argument.

So you've returned to the position in which you stated all of the foment is at the Lord's hand and He is leveling the playing field for the sake of the poor again? The horsemen all appear during The Great Tribulation, which is the "time of Jacob's trouble," not the time when rich folks get their comeuppance. And BTW, those who do get wealth honorably, do so as the result of God's blessing.

As I have mentioned to you with some complexity in the past. Man, as was determined by God Himself, had only so much time to use up here on this earth and that time frame is outlined with certainty in Scripture. We refer to that time frame in historical and prophetic terms. The reason for that is because contrary to the contentions of Barack and the liberal crowd, man is not evolving towards loftier planes of existence. Rather as is clear both in Scripture and current events, man is deteriorating into various abuses decay.

Conservatives argue with liberal/progressives at the secular level and that is understandable. And because as liberals love to point out government is not Church, we Christians should strive to keep moral principles a deciding factor in our national law and policy debate. But the real fight is between the forces of evil, (which are the enemies of God and are at the root of man's fall as revealed in Genesis) and the forces of God, the Creator and Giver of all Truth, but Who will ultimately prevail (as is revealed in the books of Daniel, Timothy and Revelation to name a few).

The passages you cite depict a day in which the present world system will have but months to exist. And though I agree they will certainly happen and in relative short order, God says that were it not for the fact that He will step in to end the conflict by His own hand, man would at that time totally erase himself from off the face of the earth. In other words an ELE, extinction level event. All men and I mean all, will be terrified for their own lives in that time and rightfully so. Hardly a leveling of the playing field for the poor, it is the prelude to "The great and the terrible day of the Lord." Judgment Day.

[The Urban Sombrero]

So you've returned to the position in which you stated all of the foment is at the Lord's hand and He is leveling the playing field for the sake of the poor again? The horsemen all appear during The Great Tribulation, which is the "time of Jacob's trouble," not the time when rich folks get their comeuppance. And BTW, those who do get wealth honorably, do so as the result of God's blessing.

As I have mentioned to you with some complexity in the past. Man, as was determined by God Himself, had only so much time to use up here on this earth and that time frame is outlined with certainty in Scripture. We refer to that time frame in historical and prophetic terms. The reason for that is because contrary to the contentions of Barack and the liberal crowd, man is not evolving towards loftier planes of existence. Rather as is clear both in Scripture and current events, man is deteriorating into various abuses decay.

Conservatives argue with liberal/progressives at the secular level and that is understandable. And because as liberals love to point out government is not Church, we Christians should strive to keep moral principles a deciding factor in our national law and policy debate. But the real fight is between the forces of evil, (which are the enemies of God and are at the root of man's fall as revealed in Genesis) and the forces of God, the Creator and Giver of all Truth, but Who will ultimately prevail (as is revealed in the books of Daniel, Timothy and Revelation to name a few).

The passages you cite depict a day in which the present world system will have but months to exist. And though I agree they will certainly happen and in relative short order, God says that were it not for the fact that He will step in to end the conflict by His own hand, man would at that time totally erase himself from off the face of the earth. In other words an ELE, extinction level event. All men and I mean all, will be terrified for their own lives in that time and rightfully so. Hardly a leveling of the playing field for the poor, it is the prelude to "The great and the terrible day of the Lord." Judgment Day.

What I am suggesting is that a great deal of wealth, not all, and I am talking about power elite wealth, not "did great in a small town" wealth, is arrived at, at least to a degree, through "dishonest scales." I am here not speaking about using government as some sort of legislative Robin Hood. The economic injustice decried by the rider of the black horse is foreshadowed prophetically many, many times.

[The Urban Sombrero]

⬆⬆ There is a wealth and power in this world that can make a call and speak personally to Senators and Presidents and Czars and dictators. That's what I am talking about.

[TheRealThing]

What I am suggesting is that a great deal of wealth, not all, and I am talking about power elite wealth, not "did great in a small town" wealth, is arrived at, at least to a degree, through "dishonest scales." I am here not speaking about using government as some sort of legislative Robin Hood. The economic injustice decried by the rider of the black horse is foreshadowed prophetically many, many times.

Well a legislative Robin Hood is exactly what you argue for. And no, the black horse rides only once, during The Great Tribulation, and the Scripture never refers to him in any other context.

[The Urban Sombrero]

Well a legislative Robin Hood is exactly what you argue for. And no, the black horse rides only once, during The Great Tribulation, and the Scripture never refers to him in any other context.

Economic injustice is a constant theme in Scriprure. Thus, the prophets foreshadow the black rider's message. I did not suggest the black horse or rider was mentioned.

I will say that standing in line behind folks buying groceries with government cards does not erode my belief in progressive taxation; however, believing in progressive taxation does not mean I support cycles of dependency that actually erode human dignity.

[TheRealThing]

Economic injustice is a constant theme in Scriprure. Thus, the prophets foreshadow the black rider's message. I did not suggest the black horse or rider was mentioned.

I will say that standing in line behind folks buying groceries with government cards does not erode my belief in progressive taxation; however, believing in progressive taxation does not mean I support cycles of dependency that actually erode human dignity.

Sombrero the only message the black horse conveys is the coming famine associated prophetically with The Great Tribulation. There will be a time of false peace, as in the white horse and his rider the anti-Christ, the false peace will be shattered nearly as soon as it is conceived with the emergence of the red horse, War. famine always follows war as in the black horse, then the pale horse comes and with him comes pestilence or disease.

You mentioned the balances in the hand of the rider on the black horse. He had a scale in his hand because the scarcity of food will make it precious enough to weigh and ration with great care. No inequality, no message, just judgment which is in the case you mentioned comes in the form of famine.

[The Urban Sombrero]

Sombrero the only message the black horse conveys is the coming famine associated prophetically with The Great Tribulation. There will be a time of false peace, as in the white horse and his rider the anti-Christ, the false peace will be shattered nearly as soon as it is conceived with the emergence of the red horse, War. famine always follows war as in the black horse, then the pale horse comes and with him comes pestilence or disease.

You mentioned the balances in the hand of the rider on the black horse. He had a scale in his hand because the scarcity of food will make it precious enough to weigh and ration with great care. No inequality, no message, just judgment which is in the case you mentioned comes in the form of famine.

"But don't touch the oil and the wine." Scarcity, famine, ...common people starve...the wealthy? "Oil and wine." Surely you have seen this? It's fairly standard commentary on 6:6.

[TheRealThing]

"But don't touch the oil and the wine." Scarcity, famine, ...common people starve...the wealthy? "Oil and wine." Surely you have seen this? It's fairly standard commentary on 6:6.

You said economic injustice, not even remotely the same thing.

The rich will fare better for a little while, more so than everybody else. That happens in every war and has nada to do with the balances you mentioned and the fact that the black horse means simply that famine is coming. Another portion of 'standard commentary' mentions the fall of Babylon, or the financial system of the whole world, which will crash in the space of one hour.
Revelation 18:10-11 (KJV)
10 Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

[The Urban Sombrero]

You said economic injustice, not even remotely the same thing.

The rich will fare better for a little while, more so than everybody else. That happens in every war and has nada to do with the balances you mentioned and the fact that the black horse means simply that famine is coming. Another portion of 'standard commentary' mentions the fall of Babylon, or the financial system of the whole world, which will crash in the space of one hour.
Revelation 18:10-11 (KJV)
10 Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

The rich man did fare better than the beggar placed at the mansion's gate. True enough.

The bounty and consolation of this earth's treasures don't spend beyond this temporality, unless they are used in ways consistent with the kingdom beyond. Economic injustice is a big deal in Scripture. I'm not moving from that. I'm also not suggesting that "white people" as a monolithic group are responsible for poverty amongst black people. The ways and systems of Babylon are more complex than that, in my view.

[Pick6]

I've had week to calm down from the events of last week. While the ambush of police in Dallas needs to be condemned, I did watch videos of the police shooting in Baton Rouge. I have to admit that if that were my son pinned by two officers and shot and killed at point blank range I may well have been driven to violence against the officer who pulled the trigger.

[TheRealThing]

The rich man did fare better than the beggar placed at the mansion's gate. True enough.

The bounty and consolation of this earth's treasures don't spend beyond this temporality, unless they are used in ways consistent with the kingdom beyond. Economic injustice is a big deal in Scripture. I'm not moving from that. I'm also not suggesting that "white people" as a monolithic group are responsible for poverty amongst black people. The ways and systems of Babylon are more complex than that, in my view.

Not for the reason you contend.

God says the following about money; 1 Timothy 6:10 (KJV)
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1 Timothy 3:3 (KJV)
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

Matthew 6:24 (KJV)
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I don't believe there is such a thing as economic injustice at the national level. Frankly, most people cannot handle money as is amply demonstrated by those who win hundreds of millions of dollars playing lotto, only to sail through once again to povery/bankruptcy in 2 or 3 short years. Though possibly once anti-Christ takes control, it may well exist at that point for a little 'season.' Your last two attempts to attach economic injustice to Scripture were unsuccessful as I have pointed out. And in past postings on the matter, you said God would someday or today, be leveling the economic playing field and I totally disagree that is forecast to happen this side of Armageddon. However, you'll enlist my support on the matter if you can demonstrate it to be a valid teaching within Scripture.

[Pick6]

Statistical refutation of BLM. This is really good.

https://twitter.com/Trump_World/status/7...6689788930

[Demarcus ware]

Statistical refutation of BLM. This is really good.

https://twitter.com/Trump_World/status/7...6689788930

nicker: If there is one person BLM hates, it's Milo...

[The Urban Sombrero]

Not for the reason you contend.

God says the following about money; 1 Timothy 6:10 (KJV)
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1 Timothy 3:3 (KJV)
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

Matthew 6:24 (KJV)
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I don't believe there is such a thing as economic injustice at the national level. Frankly, most people cannot handle money as is amply demonstrated by those who win hundreds of millions of dollars playing lotto, only to sail through once again to povery/bankruptcy in 2 or 3 short years. Though possibly once anti-Christ takes control, it may well exist at that point for a little 'season.' Your last two attempts to attach economic injustice to Scripture were unsuccessful as I have pointed out. And in past postings on the matter, you said God would someday or today, be leveling the economic playing field and I totally disagree that is forecast to happen this side of Armageddon. However, you'll enlist my support on the matter if you can demonstrate it to be a valid teaching within Scripture.

Just an example: Ford Motor did a cost-benefit analysis and decided it was cheaper to settle lawsuits than recall the Pinto and fix a little problem (when rear ended, it had a tendency to blow up). That is a form of economic injustice, in that silver and gold is counted more dear than flesh and blood.

"Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
"Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied." Before spiritualizing these words...

"Woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
"Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will grow hungry."

I do not believe, actually, the Great Reversal will take place in this temporality, though in Acts 2: 42-45, a certain reversal of attitude has already taken place.

In sum, I am not suggesting that a hard working person who is successful should be taxed at 40% so that those who won't work can have big screen tv's, or that hard work and financial success are to be frowned upon. That is ridiculous. I am suggesting the power elite on Wall Street and in board rooms should tread carefully, as the God who spared not for flesh and blood will not spare those who honor silver and gold above flesh and blood.

[TheRealThing]

Just an example: Ford Motor did a cost-benefit analysis and decided it was cheaper to settle lawsuits than recall the Pinto and fix a little problem (when rear ended, it had a tendency to blow up). That is a form of economic injustice, in that silver and gold is counted more dear than flesh and blood.

"Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
"Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied." Before spiritualizing these words...

"Woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
"Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will grow hungry."

I do not believe, actually, the Great Reversal will take place in this temporality, though in Acts 2: 42-45, a certain reversal of attitude has already taken place.

In sum, I am not suggesting that a hard working person who is successful should be taxed at 40% so that those who won't work can have big screen tv's, or that hard work and financial success are to be frowned upon. That is ridiculous. I am suggesting the power elite on Wall Street and in board rooms should tread carefully, as the God who spared not for flesh and blood will not spare those who honor silver and gold above flesh and blood.

Once again, there is no doctrine of economic injustice in Scripture. Men covet money in just the same way they do all their possessions. Heck, some guy's whole lives are tied up in a boat, or even a really nice lawnmower for than matter.

I don't know what the Great Reversal is supposed to be, it isn't to be seen anywhere in Scripture. But I'm not going to keep arguing with you on this. You're conclusions about the rich are all wrong, as are yet again, the Scripture verses you misapply in your attempts to validate the tenets of the liberal/progressive viewpoint under which you have evidently been subjected. God does not hate the rich, most of them come by their riches honestly. As I told you, this world's system of finance was conceived centuries ago. Money is a blessing when it comes time to pay the electric bill. It is in the 'LOVE' of money, that we find the root of all evil, not the possession of it. Are there movers and shakers on Wall Street? I hope so, it wouldn't do them or the US a lot of good if they worked digging a ditch somewhere.

The evil of this world is not just the misuse of money, it is in all sin. Sin is attractive. Wine, women and song which we call partying these days, possessions too. Every one of the Trillions of souls ever born on the face of this planet had/have a choice to make. Most, like Satan, just cannot give up control of their own life, they are instead hopelessly compelled to judge what is right in their own eyes. Men deciding they know better than God what is right. Cain did it when he slew Able. And America does it when they pass laws which legalize homosexuality and other sin.
Isaiah 14:12-14 (KJV)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Satan couldn't bow before God and he actually, at one point before being cast out, lived in heaven and saw reality of it with his own eyes. Men are the same, they either surrender to the call of the Lord, or they play it their way, telling themselves all the while that they're just as good as anybody else. They're right about that but then, 'all have fallen and come short of the glory of God.' No, the question men must face is not that of money, it is whether or not they will bow before Him in repentance, or, if they will 'reject so great a salvation.'

And BTW, the tests in which the Ford Pinto exploded during rear impacts and the resultant decisions made by Ford executives may well have shown a disgusting disregard for human life, I agree. However, like a typical lib, you're continually up on that soap box about some abstraction you have named economic injustice, which as it turns out in the case you cited involved 27 unfortunate people. While at the same time, you luxuriate in the comfort of a warm fuzzy blanket afforded by Roe v Wade, feeling good about 60 million slaughtered innocents just because that version of the Supremely misguided Court ruled women could legally get abortions. Forgive me but I find that to be incredible.

Satan was tossed out of heaven for doing that which he already wanted to do in his heart. Then he used guile to talk Eve into doing something he perceived she already wanted to do in her heart. Car salesmen talk people into buying cars they already want to buy, in fact, men always do what they want and let's be honest, women want to get rid of their mistakes (children) because they already want to do it in their heart. So you see, it is a question of the heart, which in the case of man's heart according to God, 'is desperately wicked.' Money is just one of the baubles out there on planet earth to dazzle the eye, as it (the world) provides a reasonable alternative to God, for those to make who cannot choose to live in humility before the Him. In other words, we were put here to make a choice, for or against God. And that applies equally to the rich and the poor.

The whole notion of economic injustice flies in the face of the pronounced curse which God placed on the earth back in Genesis. Genesis 3:13-19 (KJV)
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

There is no way around this, God cursed the ground, what you call economic injustice, Romans 8:22 calls part of the curse;
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

[The Urban Sombrero]

Once again, there is no doctrine of economic injustice in Scripture. Men covet money in just the same way they do all their possessions. Heck, some guy's whole lives are tied up in a boat, or even a really nice lawnmower for than matter.

I don't know what the Great Reversal is supposed to be, it isn't to be seen anywhere in Scripture. But I'm not going to keep arguing with you on this. You're conclusions about the rich are all wrong, as are yet again, the Scripture verses you misapply in your attempts to validate the tenets of the liberal/progressive viewpoint under which you have evidently been subjected. God does not hate the rich, most of them come by their riches honestly. As I told you, this world's system of finance was conceived centuries ago. Money is a blessing when it comes time to pay the electric bill. It is in the 'LOVE' of money, that we find the root of all evil, not the possession of it. Are there movers and shakers on Wall Street? I hope so, it wouldn't do them or the US a lot of good if they worked digging a ditch somewhere.

The evil of this world is not just the misuse of money, it is in all sin. Sin is attractive. Wine, women and song which we call partying these days, possessions too. Every one of the Trillions of souls ever born on the face of this planet had/have a choice to make. Most, like Satan, just cannot give up control of their own life, they are instead hopelessly compelled to judge what is right in their own eyes. Men deciding they know better than God what is right. Cain did it when he slew Able. And America does it when they pass laws which legalize homosexuality and other sin.
Isaiah 14:12-14 (KJV)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Satan couldn't bow before God and he actually, at one point before being cast out, lived in heaven and saw reality of it with his own eyes. Men are the same, they either surrender to the call of the Lord, or they play it their way, telling themselves all the while that they're just as good as anybody else. They're right about that but then, 'all have fallen and come short of the glory of God.' No, the question men must face is not that of money, it is whether or not they will bow before Him in repentance, or, if they will 'reject so great a salvation.'

And BTW, the tests in which the Ford Pinto exploded during rear impacts and the resultant decisions made by Ford executives may well have shown a disgusting disregard for human life, I agree. However, like a typical lib, you're continually up on that soap box about some abstraction you have named economic injustice, which as it turns out in the case you cited involved 27 unfortunate people. While at the same time, you luxuriate in the comfort of a warm fuzzy blanket afforded by Roe v Wade, feeling good about 60 million slaughtered innocents just because that version of the Supremely misguided Court ruled women could legally get abortions. Forgive me but I find that to be incredible.

Satan was tossed out of heaven for doing that which he already wanted to do in his heart. Then he used guile to talk Eve into doing something he perceived she already wanted to do in her heart. Car salesmen talk people into buying cars they already want to buy, in fact, men always do what they want and let's be honest, women want to get rid of their mistakes (children) because they already want to do it in their heart. So you see, it is a question of the heart, which in the case of man's heart according to God, 'is desperately wicked.' Money is just one of the baubles out there on planet earth to dazzle the eye, as it (the world) provides a reasonable alternative to God, for those to make who cannot choose to live in humility before the Him. In other words, we were put here to make a choice, for or against God. And that applies equally to the rich and the poor.

The whole notion of economic injustice flies in the face of the pronounced curse which God placed on the earth back in Genesis. Genesis 3:13-19 (KJV)
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

There is no way around this, God cursed the ground, what you call economic injustice, Romans 8:22 calls part of the curse;
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

I am surprised "the sweat of your brow" means to you economic injustice is just part of the plan.

The Pinto example was not used because of magnitude, but because it shows a kind of covetousness, of ruthless pursuit of bottom line and self interest that is a theme biblically in warning the rich, though I am personally speaking of the power elite.

We disagree on the application of those Scriptures, as I believe "the first shall be last, and the last shall be first" is a Great Reversal.

[TheRealThing]

I am surprised "the sweat of your brow" means to you economic injustice is just part of the plan.

The Pinto example was not used because of magnitude, but because it shows a kind of covetousness, of ruthless pursuit of bottom line and self interest that is a theme biblically in warning the rich, though I am personally speaking of the power elite.

We disagree on the application of those Scriptures, as I believe "the first shall be last, and the last shall be first" is a Great Reversal.

Strongly disagree.

But, I would think if you hope to convince anybody else to join in with you on that one, you'll have to be able to prove it in Scripture, but then you can't prove something that isn't there.

[The Urban Sombrero]

⬆⬆When blindfolded, one does not see what is there. That blade cuts both ways.

[TheRealThing]

⬆⬆When blindfolded, one does not see what is there. That blade cuts both ways.

Not in this case pal.

[The Urban Sombrero]

Not in this case pal.

"We but see through a glass darkly," so I try to never get all bent out of shape when discussing Bible with folks who know personally why Christ referenced looking up at the serpent on the pole in Mose's day.

[TheRealThing]

"We but see through a glass darkly," so I try to never get all bent out of shape when discussing Bible with folks who know personally why Christ referenced looking up at the serpent on the pole in Mose's day.

We see through that glass darkly when peering into our eternal future, or in the perception of how the people we think we know, really are in their heart. When God looks at us He sees now, what we will see when we go to be with Him, the true character of the person with no façade. Now, where correctly interpreting God's Word and how it applies to life on this earth is concerned, there we ought to have clarity. It's a matter of diligence, we are to "study to show ourselves approved." We all will be held accountable and justifiably so, because understanding and knowing the truth is the Scriptural norm for the average Joe who seeks Him, not the elite state of the seminary chancellor.

It is certainly ok even legitimate in my view for one to cite the ultimate authority in these matters, but we must get it right. Agreed?

[The Urban Sombrero]

⬆⬆"In essentials, unity...in non-essentials, brotherhood." -John Wesley

I would consider a debate about whether or not economic justice is a biblical theme a non-essential. I would consider a debate about exact matching today's events and nations with end times prophecy important, but not "can't fellowship together" important.

I absolutely agree that the Word and the Word made flesh and the Word made flesh become Spirit are gifts given to us by which we might know the Father and ourselves. Total agreement.