[charlie22]

The beginning of this thread used the words common sense. I put it to all of you. Champions do uncommon things. You are confusing individual talent with the ability to be a cog in a great TEAM. Champions are more often not just the collection of the most individual talent. You do not have to have the "horses" to platoon, platooning eventually creates the "horses". You have to have 6 quality coaches to split up and develop kids at the positions and you have to have some cogs to go in the machine. Its a chicken and egg problem. I'm telling you the 6 coaches and platooning comes first.
I'm trying to give you guys the secrets on a silver platter here and people are rejecting the truth for some reason. This misunderstanding about individual talent is why people constantly accuse winners of cheating or recruiting.

You raise a great point when you say that platooning eventually creates the horses. I've watched many a frosh or sophomore at Highlands, that quite frankly didn't look like they'd ever be a varsity player, turn into very, very good varsity football players by their junior or senior years. Part of that is due to the conditioning and commitment. Part of it is also due to the coaching. And if a kid only has to learn one position taught to him by a coach that only has to coach on one side of the ball, logic should lead one to conclude that the player will become a better player than if he had to learn positions on both sides of the ball taught to him by coaches that coached on both sides of the ball. At least that seems logical to me anyway.

Sometimes, no matter how well your team is coached, no matter how good your players are, you get beat. It happens. It happened to not only Highlands but Trinity also this year. Hell, it happened to Alabama this year! Perhaps instead of debating about whether the two platoon system caused Highlands to lose this year, we should just tip our hat to Collins for the outstanding team they had.

[sstack]

You raise a great point when you say that platooning eventually creates the horses. I've watched many a frosh or sophomore at Highlands, that quite frankly didn't look like they'd ever be a varsity player, turn into very, very good varsity football players by their junior or senior years. Part of that is due to the conditioning and commitment. Part of it is also due to the coaching. And if a kid only has to learn one position taught to him by a coach that only has to coach on one side of the ball, logic should lead one to conclude that the player will become a better player than if he had to learn positions on both sides of the ball taught to him by coaches that coached on both sides of the ball. At least that seems logical to me anyway.

Sometimes, no matter how well your team is coached, no matter how good your players are, you get beat. It happens. It happened to not only Highlands but Trinity also this year. Hell, it happened to Alabama this year! Perhaps instead of debating about whether the two platoon system caused Highlands to lose this year, we should just tip our hat to Collins for the outstanding team they had.

I think most HHS fans have, but it is still fun for us sports nuts to discuss the what ifs.

[charlie22]

I think most HHS fans have, but it is still fun for us sports nuts to discuss the what ifs.

A good point also!

[oneijoe]

For SURE, it would be wonderful to have a team 2-deep everywhere with no both-ways players. What school wouldn't like that ?!?

The problem is the math. Not counting special teams, a minimum of 44 players are required to field a team with that much depth. This makes no allowance for players who move away, quit, or are injured. This also assumes the breakdown of those 44 players fit the position needs of the offense and defense.

When one considers more than 1/2 the teams in the state don't field 44 to begin, it's easy to see what a pipe-dream a two-way, two-deep team is. (lolol...if I'd known this thread was intended as yet another Highlands 'what we did wrong' discussion, I wouldn't have entered it - many of you HHS ppl don't realize how good you have it)

With all that said, there ARE positions which demand competent depth more than others. As much running as WRs and DBs do (more with pass-heavy play), it is -still- not as physically demanding as pushing >200lb guys each and every play. I submit the OL and DL are THE most important positions in which fresh players are needed (with FB/LB not far behind).

[Iam4thecats]

NOBODY has what you are talking about. So I can see why you're against platooning. What you have decided is the minimum requirement to do it is impossible to achieve. Its a logical non-starter

[sstack]

[quote=oneijoe]For SURE, it would be wonderful to have a team 2-deep everywhere with no both-ways players. What school wouldn't like that ?!?

The problem is the math. Not counting special teams, a minimum of 44 players are required to field a team with that much depth. This makes no allowance for players who move away, quit, or are injured. This also assumes the breakdown of those 44 players fit the position needs of the offense and defense.

When one considers more than 1/2 the teams in the state don't field 44 to begin, it's easy to see what a pipe-dream a two-way, two-deep team is. (lolol...if I'd known this thread was intended as yet another Highlands 'what we did wrong' discussion, I wouldn't have entered it - many of you HHS ppl don't realize how good you have it)

With all that said, there ARE positions which demand competent depth more than others. [COLOR="blue"] As much running as WRs and DBs do [/COLOR](more with pass-heavy play), it is -still- not as physically demanding as pushing >200lb guys each and every play. I submit the OL and DL are THE most important positions in which fresh players are needed (with FB/LB not far behind).

Injuries were a big problem for Highlands this year; you already have your top talent divided between O and D so when you have injuries you are dipping in to what is essentially 3 or 4th string talent, and in Highlands case this year, it really showed on the field. The went all in with the 2 platoon and stuck with it regardless of injuries and it bit them in the behind.
It always cracks me up when people talk about WR/RB's getting tired. I can not speak for linemen as I was WR, but the average play is 3 seconds and then a nice rest between plays. These are young kids who can go all day long. I ran CC and track so maybe I had more endurance than some, but I was never winded in football and thought football practice was a piece of cake compared to CC and track.

[oneijoe]

Injuries were a big problem for Highlands this year; you already have your top talent divided between O and D so when you have injuries you are dipping in to what is essentially 3 or 4th string talent, and in Highlands case this year, it really showed on the field. The went all in with the 2 platoon and stuck with it regardless of injuries and it bit them in the behind.
It always cracks me up when people talk about WR/RB's getting tired. I can not speak for linemen as I was WR, but the average play is 3 seconds and then a nice rest between plays. These are young kids who can go all day long. I ran CC and track so maybe I had more endurance than some, but I was never winded in football and thought football practice was a piece of cake compared to CC and track.

It isn't about getting "winded" as much as it is muscle fatigue later in a game. I'm not talking about how a player feels, but how he performs.

Put 200-300lbs on a wooden sled, then push it as hard and as far as you can for 8 secs (the more accurate time of each play). Rest for 30 secs. Push again. Repeat 50 times (number of plays run; 100 reps for two-way players). Chart the distance the sled moved each time. Invariably the sled's distance will decrease as reps increase.

In track terms, top performance in football is all about sprint output (short distance at max output) kept at a high level throughout the game. It is simply impossible for any player who is maxing output each play to have the same ability at the end of a game. Going back to my primary point, linemen are working the hardest AND never get to take a play off (like wideouts and corners on inside runs).

[insideinfo]

You have to do what your talent will let you do. If you just start putting warm bodies out there you will be looking for a job real quick. Maybe you have enough talented linemen to platoon and not skill players, just got to do what your talent will let you do. This is what makes the difference between a good coach and a great coach.

[oneijoe]

NOBODY has what you are talking about. So I can see why you're against platooning. What you have decided is the minimum requirement to do it is impossible to achieve. Its a logical non-starter

To the absolute contrary, I am FOR better depth on a team. But what I'm against is substitution for substitution's sake - giving little Johnny "his" turn to play because he works hard/is a senior/is so-and-so's son/etc.

The idea is to have your best-performing 11 players on the field at a given time. THAT is a vitally important job of the coaching staff. They have to anticipate the personel needs on offense and defense through the span of a game and set things up beforehand in order to maximize performance potential come playoff time (months later). Sometimes it's advantageous to start a slightly lesser player at a given position (to develop depth). Sometimes it isn't (the lesser player doesn't develop). Sometimes injuries throw the entire plan into chaos. But in any case, who to put where and how often aren't easy decisions.

[oneijoe]

You have to do what your talent will let you do. If you just start putting warm bodies out there you will be looking for a job real quick. Maybe you have enough talented linemen to platoon and not skill players, just got to do what your talent will let you do. This is what makes the difference between a good coach and a great coach.

Damn... I'm too wordy. You're right on the nose. :Thumbs:

[Iam4thecats]

I'm bowing out of this thread. You are starting every argument with a premise that is not true and going from there to the wrong conclusion. Charlie and I tried to help. As long is prestonsburg is 2A you'll be in good shape as you won't have to best a platoon team probably.

[oneijoe]

I'm bowing out of this thread. You are starting every argument with a premise that is not true and going from there to the wrong conclusion. Charlie and I tried to help. As long is prestonsburg is 2A you'll be in good shape as you won't have to best a platoon team probably.

What incorrect premise is that ? And what wrong conclusion am I drawing ?

I'm not trying to be obstinate, just following the theme of the thread.

[Iam4thecats]

It's easier to get recruiting recognition when you're the best player on a decent team vs. just another good player on a great team.


:popcorn:

False premise.

I wanted to leave this but here goes.

[Iam4thecats]

Not counting special teams, a minimum of 44 players are required to field a team with that much depth.
.

False premise.

[Iam4thecats]

The idea is to have your best-performing 11 players on the field at a given time.

False premise.

[RunItUpTheGut]

Why? And I'm not being flip here, either. I would really like to hear your rationale.

I'm looking at this strictly as a regional premise.

First off, teams like Highlands can platoon, and it work. Its worked for a while. Its also unstoppable to team that play almost every kid both ways that aren't very well conditioned to begin with, but lets look at "mountain" football for example.

To break it down, I don't think a lot of coaches are capable of setting up a platooning offense with success in this part of the state. Platooning players takes a lot of research, player breakdowns, and the most important thing, really smart and intuitive players.

It is to easy to get players confused. Early this season while I was watching Auburn play Alabama and Florida State, did you notice that in the hurry up, they were platooning players like crazy, all while holding up signs with something like this....

[Image: https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/image...OQ2Gd3WWkA]

This was obviously designed by the coaches to make it easier for the players to understand and harder for others to decipher and pick up on there plays. That takes a LOT of preparation and getting 16 and 17 year olds to be paying close attention so they know what formations they will be in on and what they will be doing in hundreds of different situations is extremely hard without complete dedication.
Call it an advanced futuristic form of football, as this was just 10 years ago, but this is the reason we see teams around here run the ball 90% of the time or more. Its easy, its fast, every player has one assignment and I think coaches either cant or wont convey a complex scheme to a team when the coach himself doesn't even understand it.
A lot of coaches wont take those risk and what would be a couple of bad, complicated years for the risk of losing there jobs on something that may or may not work against there competition.

Don't get me wrong, I think platooning can be very effective, I just think it depends on what you have to deal with to get it right.

[Iam4thecats]

I'm looking at this strictly as a regional premise.

First off, teams like Highlands can platoon, and it work. Its worked for a while. Its also unstoppable to team that play almost every kid both ways that aren't very well conditioned to begin with, but lets look at "mountain" football for example.

To break it down, I don't think a lot of coaches are capable of setting up a platooning offense with success in this part of the state. Platooning players takes a lot of research, player breakdowns, and the most important thing, really smart and intuitive players.

It is to easy to get players confused. Early this season while I was watching Auburn play Alabama and Florida State, did you notice that in the hurry up, they were platooning players like crazy, all while holding up signs with something like this....

[Image: https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/image...OQ2Gd3WWkA]

This was obviously designed by the coaches to make it easier for the players to understand and harder for others to decipher and pick up on there plays. That takes a LOT of preparation and getting 16 and 17 year olds to be paying close attention so they know what formations they will be in on and what they will be doing in hundreds of different situations is extremely hard without complete dedication.
Call it an advanced futuristic form of football, as this was just 10 years ago, but this is the reason we see teams around here run the ball 90% of the time or more. Its easy, its fast, every player has one assignment and I think coaches either cant or wont convey a complex scheme to a team when the coach himself doesn't even understand it.
A lot of coaches wont take those risk and what would be a couple of bad, complicated years for the risk of losing there jobs on something that may or may not work against there competition.

Don't get me wrong, I think platooning can be very effective, I just think it depends on what you have to deal with to get it right.

You have to have 6 good coaches on your staff. {HC and 5 more} Not just Joe who played in college and Jimmy who had a great LL team one year. You have to have 6 guys who can run a position group all day and develop kids without someone looking over his shoulder because anyone who would be looking over his shoulder is coaching his own group.

[RunItUpTheGut]

You have to have 6 good coaches on your staff. {HC and 5 more}

That's a really good point.
Most do not, even the bigger schools in this part of the state only have 4 or 5.

[oneijoe]

Juding from cats' objections, I'm pretty sure we're talking about 2 different, though related, things. My statements have been aimed more toward depth, in general. I think cats is strictly referring to formalized platooning systems.

My apologies on misunderstanding the subject matter...

[Granny Bear]

I followed you just fine, joe and understood what you were saying.

I also (gasp) understand what Gut is saying, and happen to agree with him.

[oneijoe]

I followed you just fine, joe and understood what you were saying.

I also (gasp) understand what Gut is saying, and happen to agree with him.

I agree with GUT, too. I'd say it isn't players don't have the brains to get a platoon system as much as it is lack of the discipline to use their brain. It's simply a maturity thing. Cats makes a good point in that the coaches have to be working together properly, too. It's much more than teaching technique. If everyone isn't on the same page in a particular system, chaos will result.

[Iam4thecats]

If you are a 1A 2A or 3A school then by all means try to get as many kids rotated in the game as possible. I agree the first place you want to look is at the linemen. The big boys get tired fast. The one caveat is that big boys overall are harder to find than the little ones. Go to an average high school practice and the qb,rb,wr line is 2 or 3 times longer than the big guy line.

[Iam4thecats]

Platooning has ZERO to do with the brains and discipline of the players and everything to do with the brains and discipline of the coaches.

[oneijoe]

Platooning has ZERO to do with the brains and discipline of the players and everything to do with the brains and discipline of the coaches.

"Zero" would be wrong. Surely you don't think the coaches -only- need to know what's happening on the field ? I'm not talking in-depth football knowledge.

No matter how good coaches are, it does them no good to call a set package if one or more players head isn't around to hear the call. Players need to have enough of their head into a game to be where they should if/when a call comes (ie...disclipline). Kids that age are notorious to wander back to the water table/chatter to a teammate/looking at a cheerleader/seeing if dad made the game/etc..

[Iam4thecats]

"Zero" would be wrong. Surely you don't think the coaches -only- need to know what's happening on the field ? I'm not talking in-depth football knowledge.

No matter how good coaches are, it does them no good to call a set package if one or more players head isn't around to hear the call. Players need to have enough of their head into a game to be where they should if/when a call comes (ie...disclipline). Kids that age are notorious to wander back to the water table/chatter to a teammate/looking at a cheerleader/seeing if dad made the game/etc..

I tried to be out before now i'm really done. You are foolishly just trying to disagree with everything I say. What you are describing above is the brains that ANY football player needs to have and has ZERO to do with platooning.

[Granny Bear]

I tried to be out before now i'm really done. You are foolishly just trying to disagree with everything I say. What you are describing above is the brains that ANY football player needs to have and has ZERO to do with platooning.

Which is what, I believe, to be oneijoe's point initially......

ZERO brains (YOUR terminology) is way to generalized for any organized sport.

[oneijoe]

Which is what, I believe, to be oneijoe's point initially......

ZERO brains (YOUR terminology) is way to generalized for any organized sport.

"ZERO" brains is a bad way to do about anything. nicker:

[blue1424]

In my opinion, the best way to approach the platoon/depth situation is to do what Collins did this year. They started 22 different players and for the most part, defensive starters stayed on defense, and offensive starters stayed on offense. However, if the opposing team went on a long drive, they would sub in offensive players on defense. If their opponent got into the red zone, they would put in their best offensive playmakers (Forrest, Sames, Farris, etc.) on defense and a lot of times it worked out for them because they got a stop. At the end of the first half in the state championship game, Highlands marched straight down the field into the red zone. Coach Lucas took out a few of his younger players on defense and put in a few wide receivers in the secondary. One of them blitzed and made one of the biggest plays of the game, sacking the QB and forcing a fumble. A wide receiver made one of the biggest plays of the game on defense because Collins had their best players in at the most crucial times. Collins would do the same thing on the offensive side of the ball. In short yardage situations, they would bring in their 350 lb DT on the OL and LB Masai Whyte in as a running back/full back. In a 4th and 1 against Anderson County, Masai got the ball, ran over a kid at the line of scrimmage and ran it in for a 19 yard TD. He didn't get to carry the ball very much this season but he was used when he was needed. Toward the end of the state championship game when Highlands was driving to take the lead, DeAndre Farris and Lawson Page, two of their best offensive play makers, came in on defense because Highlands was killing them through the air and they were two of the best athletes on the team. I believe that you should try to have 22 different starters if possible and play as many kids as you can, but you should also not be afraid to put your best 11 out there when needed.

Collins ended up playing around 30 or more kids per game so they were able to get younger kids experience and build depth, but they also put their best players out there when they were needed.

[sstack]

^
Blue I totally agree with you on having 22 players but put in best players when needed. You also can not shift too much talent to one side like Highlands did and leave glaring areas of weakness and not be willing to shift some talent to the other side.
I do have to say the play you mentioned at the end of the half had nothing to do with a more talented kid coming in, that was a busted play by the offense and NOBODY even looked at him on the play giving him free shot on QB's blindside. Huge play as I think they score if he does not fumble.

[bo67]

BLUE1424....That is exactly how I think. Play your best. When you back is against the wall.