[Hoot Gibson]

Also a prime candidate to be a close friend of Obama.

He donated to the Ron Paul campaign. My guess is that he was bored in high school. Most IT firms could not care less what kind of degrees and certificates that you hold if you are a talented programmer. Degrees and certification get your foot in the door for your first job or two, but after that your success depends mostly on your job performance. It will be interesting to read about Snowden's background, but I expect the Obama administration to wage a well funded smear campaign against him. That is the Chicago way.

[SKINNYPIG]

It doesn't surprise me that you are blindly defending Obama again for no good reason other than the big "D" by his name. If by taking up for this person, you mean pointing out the illogical partisan conclusions that you immediately jumped to, then I guess I am guilty. This guy is not some idiot who just hung out and smoked your "miracle drug" until he flunked out of high school.

Snowden broke the law and he should be prosecuted for it. I am sympathetic to this guy because he had good reason to believe that blowing the whistle through the proper channels in this corrupt administration would have surely led to the same kind of retribution that other whistleblowers have experienced.

Besides disclosing highly classified information, it also bothers me that Snowden chose to identify himself as the source of the NSA leaks while standing on Chinese soil. He seems like a very intelligent man but his belief that the Chinese will ignore his presence because he is in Hong Kong strikes me as naive. If the Chinese believe that Snowden might be able to give them a directory of all NSA operatives in the world, then I would be expecting company any minute.

Regardless of what happens to Snowden, it is moronic to trust that all of those Obama political hacks who have security clearances will not misuse the data that they are collecting, if they are not already doing so. If they are using it, then it might explain John Roberts surprising swing vote in favor of Obamacare.

I wonder if Snowden was smart enough to "say" he was in Hong Kong but actually a half a world away.

[Harry Rex Vonner]

I wonder if Snowden was smart enough to "say" he was in Hong Kong but actually a half a world away.

There is a world of difference between being "book smart" and "street smart". We all know individuals who are "book smart" but who, in real life, can't find their way home.

If Snowden has "street smarts", he is somewhere far away from Hong Kong.

[vundy33]

It doesn't matter if a person is conversing with terrorists or not or if we feel safe or not. This is against the law...we have them for a reason. A federal agency shouldn't be aloud to pick and choose which laws they'll look over.

[TheRealVille]

It doesn't matter if a person is conversing with terrorists or not or if we feel safe or not. This is against the law...we have them for a reason. A federal agency shouldn't be aloud to pick and choose which laws they'll look over.

Isn't it covered here?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act

[vundy33]

I look at the Patriot Act the same way I do these programs. Unconstitutional. When governments start picking and choosing which laws they'll follow and which they'll set aside, bad things tend to happen. Starts out as a good thing, hardly ever ends that way.

Reminds me of the CIA sending bags of cash to Afghan President Hamid Karzai. That program started out as a way to pretty MVP guarantee his cooperation, but in fact it ended with CIA still paying him while he publicly accused us of working with the Taliban, who without us being there would have his head dragged through Kandahar, among many other accusations. He kept it up and the cash kept coming, without either Bush or Obama knowing.

I'm to the point where I can hardly trust our government any more. Many people are already there, but I've always been a glass half full type. Getting left out to dry multiple times while in built up quite a bit of disdain for suits sitting behind desks and the entire apparatus really, and all the things that have came out in these last 8 months have just solidified that.

[Hoot Gibson]

I look at the Patriot Act the same way I do these programs. Unconstitutional. When governments start picking and choosing which laws they'll follow and which they'll set aside, bad things tend to happen. Starts out as a good thing, hardly ever ends that way.

Reminds me of the CIA sending bags of cash to Afghan President Hamid Karzai. That program started out as a way to pretty MVP guarantee his cooperation, but in fact it ended with CIA still paying him while he publicly accused us of working with the Taliban, who without us being there would have his head dragged through Kandahar, among many other accusations. He kept it up and the cash kept coming, without either Bush or Obama knowing.

I'm to the point where I can hardly trust our government any more. Many people are already there, but I've always been a glass half full type. Getting left out to dry multiple times while in built up quite a bit of disdain for suits sitting behind desks and the entire apparatus really, and all the things that have came out in these last 8 months have just solidified that.

Well said, Vundy. IMO, the politicians - both Democrats or Republicans who support this domestic spying on American systems fall into three categories. The first group is too stupid to understand the consequences of pursuing the massive domestic spying program. The second group knows exactly what the implications of this program are but they have concluded that the world will become such a dangerous place that we have no choice but to surrender our privacy. The third, and most dangerous group, are those people who fully understand what this type of program will eventually be capable of and how much power it will give the group who controls access to the system.

With the emerging database technology that is already being used by companies like LinkedIn and Facebook, it would be very easy to mine the data and identify potential mistresses of a particular candidate or Supreme Court Justice, for example. It would also be pretty easy to build threat profiles for American citizens based on "degrees of separation" from known criminals and terrorists. When I establish a new connection on LinkedIn, my statistics showing how many first, second, and third level contacts I have in my network is updated within a few seconds.

People who argue that the federal government cannot possibly read everybody's email or listen to their phone calls don't have a clue. I already receive transcripts of some voice mail messages through Google. There is no reason to think that does not have the capability to automatically transcribe voice mail message and then use software to search the transcripts for key words.

We are on a slippery slope and our own government will pose a much bigger threat to our freedom than terrorists if we allow them to continue to deploy programs like PRISM.

[RunItUpTheGut]

^
Well said.

[TheRealThing]

Well said, Vundy. IMO, the politicians - both Democrats or Republicans who support this domestic spying on American systems fall into three categories. The first group is too stupid to understand the consequences of pursuing the massive domestic spying program. The second group knows exactly what the implications of this program are but they have concluded that the world will become such a dangerous place that we have no choice but to surrender our privacy. The third, and most dangerous group, are those people who fully understand what this type of program will eventually be capable of and how much power it will give the group who controls access to the system.

With the emerging database technology that is already being used by companies like LinkedIn and Facebook, it would be very easy to mine the data and identify potential mistresses of a particular candidate or Supreme Court Justice, for example. It would also be pretty easy to build threat profiles for American citizens based on "degrees of separation" from known criminals and terrorists. When I establish a new connection on LinkedIn, my statistics showing how many first, second, and third level contacts I have in my network is updated within a few seconds.

People who argue that the federal government cannot possibly read everybody's email or listen to their phone calls don't have a clue. I already receive transcripts of some voice mail messages through Google. There is no reason to think that does not have the capability to automatically transcribe voice mail message and then use software to search the transcripts for key words.

We are on a slippery slope and our own government will pose a much bigger threat to our freedom than terrorists if we allow them to continue to deploy programs like PRISM.

Friend of a friend said a family member had been threatened with bodily harm during a phone conversation. Long story short, they called the cell phone company and learned that certain information with regard to the conversation was available if cops had a court order for it. Who stores that info and where?

I also heard that more damning information about the NSA would be released soon under the supervision of Snowden's lawyer. While politicians associated with the first two groups you mention take solace in the belief that America will always take the high road on civil liberties, it seems more likely to me that if knowledge is power. And, given that the expansion of knowledge is growing exponentially, it follows then that absolute knowledge/power will corrupt absolutely. Regardless of assurances from W or Obama, or whoever, nobody can really successfully control this situation. We are in completely uncharted waters and those waters will be the force that determines our destination.

I'd love to believe our government is in control of foreign and fiscal affairs though I sincerely doubt that they are. When it comes to this vast data base, I don't think they have a ghost of a chance of getting the genie back in the bottle.

[vundy33]

I just don't understand how anyone can honestly think that a huge domestic spying program can be good for Americans. Our intelligence agencies are known to go way past what they're actually aloud to do, how can we be sure they wouldn't do that here?? They've done that with MUCH more oversight than they have now (which is pretty much none)!

[PaintsvilleTigerfan]

Serious question. If we allow this to happen doesn't that mean the terrorists won?

[vundy33]

Lol.

[nky]

[YOUTUBE="August 1, 2007."]_RQvKQGzcoc[/YOUTUBE]:notbad:

[nky]

[YOUTUBE="mmmmmmmm?"]qptZOMEwFXM[/YOUTUBE]:dudecomeon:

[Hoot Gibson]

[YOUTUBE="mmmmmmmm?"]qptZOMEwFXM[/YOUTUBE]:dudecomeon:

RV and his comrades, did you agree with Obama when he attacked Bush over the Patriot Act or do you agree with him now? Or did you agree with him then and now? Never mind answering the question - it is purely rhetorical.

nicker:

[TheRealThing]

Listen to what Joe Biden said in 2006 >

[TheRealVille]

[Image: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/h...6085_n.jpg]

[TheRealThing]

[Image: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/h...6085_n.jpg]

Did you even watch the video? If there has ever been a better example of a 180 degree reversal or a 'flip-flop', I would challenge you to put it up here for us to see. Better yet, given the seriousness of the nature of this type of intrusion on the right to privacy, it would be nice to see just a bit of honesty from you.

Sifting through phone calls to and from Yemen is hardly the same thing as storing all your phone calls, emails and whatever else goes into your NSA data file. Maxine Waters confirmed that what this president is doing is ground breaking, never before seen in the annals of government snoopery but, you'd rather just ignore that and keep waving the flag with a donkey on it. At any rate, no Tea Partier was ever in favor of amassing a vast data file on every citizen of this land.

[TheRealVille]

^Prove that it is true that they are saving anything other than over seas, talks with terrorists. Not Faux News true, but REAL truth. I've got nothing to hide, and if they want to save anything on me, that helps keep America safe, I could care less. All they will ever have in my calls is talking to my kids, wife, and a few friends. They are welcome to store anything I say. If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't either. I work for the government, they already know everything about me. Me thinks you just want to bitch about this President.

[Hoot Gibson]

^

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me. - Martin Niemöller

[TheRealThing]

^Prove that it is true that they are saving anything other than over seas, talks with terrorists. Not Faux News true, but REAL truth. I've got nothing to hide, and if they want to save anything on me, that helps keep America safe, I could care less. All they will ever have in my calls is talking to my kids, wife, and a few friends. They are welcome to store anything I say. If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't either. I work for the government, they already know everything about me. Me thinks you just want to bitch about this President.

I got one better than that. YOU prove that Maxine Waters didn't know what she was talking about and I'll back up. And as far as the "bitching" goes, I can only be force fed so much la-la liberal/progressive/social justice monkey puke. Then I start complaining. Let me ask you a question. How many presidents have the distinction of having had a book entitled "The Amateur" written about them?

[Hoot Gibson]

I got one better than that. YOU prove that Maxine Waters didn't know what she was talking about and I'll back up. And as far as the "bitching" goes, I can only be force fed so much la-la liberal/progressive/social justice monkey puke. Then I start complaining. Let me ask you a question. How many presidents have the distinction of having had a book entitled "The Amateur" written about them?

How many presidents have (allegedly) written two autobiographies before they were even elected president? I think that Obama has at least one or two more autobiographies in him. If he doesn't write some good things about himself after his failed presidency, who else is going to do it? :biggrin:

[TheRealVille]

^ Two guys who still have no proof, and pull stuff out of their rears. They have stated that they aren't collecting data, unless you are conversing with terrorists, from terror states. Until I see proof of something different, your posts are merely hogwash.

[Hoot Gibson]

^ Two guys who still have no proof, and pull stuff out of their rears. They have stated that they aren't collecting data, unless you are conversing with terrorists, from terror states. Until I see proof of something different, your posts are merely hogwash.

How do you expect to see proof if you do not hold a top secret clearance and have not been deemed to "need to know" the truth? :biglmao:

[TheRealVille]

How do you expect to see proof if you do not hold a top secret clearance and have not been deemed to "need to know" the truth? :biglmao:

Why do you two keep pulling stuff out of your ass then?

[Hoot Gibson]

Why do you two keep pulling stuff out of your ass then?

Snowden has more credibility than Obama and his staff of goons do, especially Holder. Both Holder and Clapper have already been caught lying under oath in Congressional hearings. And as the video clip TRT posted shows, Maxine Waters has boasted about the amount of personal data that Obama is collecting that will be available to the Democratic candidate in 2016.

You choose to believe an administration that has been caught lying about important matters repeatedly. l choose to judge them on their track record. They have no credibility because they are proven liars. If they are telling the truth in this particular instance, then I will be pleased and pleasantly surprised but we will never be certain either way.

Another reason that I do not trust this administration and do not condemn Snowden in stronger terms is that the Obama administration has leaked classified information when it was politically advantageous. Doing so probably cost several Navy seals their lives. There was no investigation in that case and nobody was or ever will be charged. When classified information is leaked, then the federal government should identify the source and prosecute those involved, no matter where the trail leads and that never happens unless the leak is politically damaging to the party in power.

[Hoot Gibson]

This just in, RV.

[INDENT]

NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

The National Security Agency has acknowledged in a new classified briefing that it does not need court authorization to listen to domestic phone calls.
Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed this week that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed "simply based on an analyst deciding that."

If the NSA wants "to listen to the phone," an analyst's decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. "I was rather startled," said Nadler, an attorney and congressman who serves on the House Judiciary committee.

Not only does this disclosure shed more light on how the NSA's formidable eavesdropping apparatus works domestically it also suggests the Justice Department has secretly interpreted federal surveillance law to permit thousands of low-ranking analysts to eavesdrop on phone calls.

Because the same legal standards that apply to phone calls also apply to e-mail messages, text messages, and instant messages, Nadler's disclosure indicates the NSA analysts could also access the contents of Internet communications without going before a court and seeking approval.

[/INDENT]

[TheRealVille]

^They don't have to have a warrant under the patriot act to listen to to overseas calls to terrorist states.

[Hoot Gibson]

^They don't have to have a warrant under the patriot act to listen to to overseas calls to terrorist states.

That's not what the article says. You didn't read it did you?

[TheRealThing]

Did you set Maxine straight yet RV? :biglmao: Seriously, does it never embarrass you just a little to be proved wrong so often?