[Iam4thecats]

Thats fine. I quit. You keep the same power-i or wishbone or whatever and you can sit with me in the stands on championship weekend watching teams with balance (Highlands, Mayfield, Trinity, Newport Cath., Breathitt, Fort Campbell, etc...) win.

[rustyankle]

your scheme depends on your talent thats the bottom line

[Backwoods]

I think you have to focus on what you have available to you. If you have big guys who are not very quick but strong, you need to run the ball and try to wear people out. A really quick athlete will wear out when a running back hits them every time you try to tackle them instead of letting the defense always deliver the hit. However, if you have a lot of speed and good athletes, I say spread the field and play a run and gun game where you do five or six yard routes to back the defense off and run the ball to keep a defense honest. Now if you have the athletes and a kid who has a arm to put the ball down the field, then spread the field and take what the defense gives you. If they want to take away the deep ball, you need to nickle and dime down the field and use the run to force man to man coverage. If they are going to take away the short routes, then throw the ball deep and force zone coverage. Find ways to dictate what the defense does and keep them off balance, that is what really good teams do. Teams and coaches do not need to settle into this mind set we have always ran the ball or through the ball so that's what we need to do. You look at you're team and the players you have. Whatever style will work best with the players you have, you run with it! A good coach can teach the run or the pass, a great coach can do both! Sometimes its not enough, but doing what is suited to you're players will take you a lot further then trying to make them do something they are not suited for.

These,in bold,are the things that,not only a good coach should do,but a good QB also. That's what makes this kind of Offense so complicated and why you need a QB with a good head on his shoulder's. A good spread QB is going to get his play from the sideline and call it in the huddle but when he get's to the line of scrimmage he has to look the defense over and determine what kind of defense it is and how many player's are in the box and then decide if an audible is in need. Also one that will run the ball to keep the defense honest. Then he also has to have the confidence of the coaching staff to make those decisions. Without a QB that can do that then the spread offence is too limited. You don't run across too many young QB wannabe's that have the wearwithall to do that and stick with it from middle school up.

[Pigskinman53]

Several team spread the field to run the ball, Auburn last year with Cam Newton ran a spread system but he did alot of power running, same can be said for Tebow while at Florida. Oregan spreads the field this year but runs more than they pass and maybe has double the passsing you to running yeards.

As for High school teams each would have both heavy run sets and spread attacks, its not uncommon in high school to see a team in a wishbone one play and 5 wR the next.

[southbound]

alot of good debate here but the jest of it is this....athletes! as mentioned some of the best coaches in the state are right here in the mountains. these guys know what they need to do to win. to run a viable balanced attack you have to have a qb who can read defenses, a line that can pass block and 3 or four good skill players. its not always about changing to something new or even better. its about playing the game with what you have and using that to the best of your ability. take a team like lawrence county for instance. they are traditionally a running team, often found in the top ten rushing teams in their class. they have a back near the top of the record book in yards. with that said they have also placed a receiver in the record books. mountain teams generally dont have the athletes year in and year out to put a system like that in. you simply play the hand you're dealt as best you can

[Football1]

Ok, you guys are not hearing what I am saying. I am not comparing the spread to the power game. I am not saying we all need to go to the Tony Franklin school of football. I am saying that coaches have to do what their players are capable of doing. And by the way, watch Stanford or the 49er's. Andrew Luck is a product of using run formations to exploit the the defense in the passing game. Everyone is caught up in spreading to run, how about tightening up to throw. Like I said, all offenses work. But not all coaches know how to make them work. What your asking for as it has become more clear is for coaches to become better play callers. Again, when your players are better anyone can be a good play caller. I am a big fan of running the football, and nothing is more beautiful than a well executed play action pass that catches the defense off guard. I love the spread option, the flex bone, and Anything the New England Patriots do on offense. And the Highlands comments about their offense, you said it not me, when you have backs that can dominate, or a receiver that can dominate, that would be the definition of having the players. How many mountain teams can match the players Highlands has? Non. You all think the style of football will dictate championships, no. How good your players are will dictate that. Then it is how good your coaches perform (play calling).

So football1, I will ask you. You said we don't have the people to do this or that anyore in the mountains. Well does mountain teams have the speed to compete with the Highlands and Trinity's of Kentucky? If not what do mountain teams do? We can't run it, we're not fast enough to spread, what do we do? If you can tell everyone on this message board what you do to win state championships with inferior talent then NKY and Louisville teams look out. Sorry, not trying to be a smart butt, I just want your opinion, and everybody's opinion on what to do with inferior talent.

I appreciate your perspective. But let me be clear - in no way do I feel we have a lack of exceptional athletes in the mountains. My point is we are not so far superior to our competition that we can line up in the I and run over top of people to win. Teams today have highly sophisticated scouting software (HUDL, Apex, and many others) that peg coaches tendencies to formations and game situation. Any Defensive Coordinator worth his salt can plug holes even when we are bigger and stronger in many positions.

The jimmy's and joe's vs X and O's argument will long survive this discussion but consider this analogy. If two platoons of Rangers with the same training had a battle - the one with better strategy would win every time. Predictable, head on attacks would bring certain death to the advance met be L shaped ambushes and flanking attacks. That is what great leaders do - they position their team to win by employing strategy that protects weaknesses and advances strength.

I don't profess to have the key to the riddle of winning State Championships. But my strong belief is that many teams in our area would benefit from an offensive approach that is less predictable. Coach Russell worked some magic this year for Knox to do just that and I hope he continues that direction in coming years. The days of run on 1st, run on 2nd, pass on 3rd, and punt on 4th have to find their way into the history books for us to give our athletes in the mountains (who are every bit as good as NKY) a chance to win titles.

[PaintsvilleTigerfan]

A power offense allows mountain teams to comepete better with teams from other areas. If the mountain teams ran out of normal offenses the differences in the teams would become more apparent. This discussion happens every year.

[honestjchsfan]

JC had just as many good athletes in 09 and for sure had size advantage over Highlands.

JC didn't have a D1 QB that will be a pro someday soon. What really burns me is the ESPN has Towles listed as a Athlete and not as a QB. If there is 50 better HS QB's in the USA than Mr. Towles then I am a porno Star who is also a Brain Surgeon. In 09 JC did have a size adavantage. I will admit there has been many times when it was 2nd down and 3 yards to go and JC could have ran a play action pass and threw a BOMB for a easy score. I think a play action passing game added to what JC already does would make them harder to stop. I have heard Coach Matney say with ideal personal he would like to run 65% of the time and throw 35% of the time. He has had some good TE's since he has been at JC but he has not had that blazing fast outside speed guy. I think Coach Matney has done a wonderful job at JC and the future of JCHS is very bright.

[Iam4thecats]

alot of good debate here but the jest of it is this....athletes! as mentioned some of the best coaches in the state are right here in the mountains. these guys know what they need to do to win. to run a viable balanced attack you have to have a qb who can read defenses, a line that can pass block and 3 or four good skill players. its not always about changing to something new or even better. its about playing the game with what you have and using that to the best of your ability. take a team like lawrence county for instance. they are traditionally a running team, often found in the top ten rushing teams in their class. they have a back near the top of the record book in yards. with that said they have also placed a receiver in the record books. mountain teams generally dont have the athletes year in and year out to put a system like that in. you simply play the hand you're dealt as best you can

Are you sure they don't have athletes cause over in the fastest player thread there are a bunch of mountain boys running 4.3.

[southbound]

Are you sure they don't have athletes cause over in the fastest player thread there are a bunch of mountain boys running 4.3.

i think you know what i was saying. besides i can remember having a guy on our team back in the day that ran a 4.3...he couldn't catch a ball with glue on his hands! could only run in a straight line and was absolutely useless other than running deep every play and taking one defender out of the play. just because you have speed does not put you in the category of being an "athlete"
and it takes more than one good athlete. there simply isnt a large enough talent pool to pull from.

[PirateNation]

Are you sure they don't have athletes cause over in the fastest player thread there are a bunch of mountain boys running 4.3.

Yeah,and faster when there running deer!:yikes:

[red&white]

I think the no. of athletes on the field makes the differance. Teams from Louisville and some other places have a much bigger talent pool of kids who can make plays. Belfry has consistantly made it to the semis and the big game,but last year for sure had no where near the speed or talent on the field with Central. True that balanced offense is better,and Belfry looks to pass more this year than i have seen in some time. Everyone says no one in 3A has a chance,and it may be true. Most small area schools may field 50 to 70 kids some less with maybe a handful are great at their position. I seen someone say Central has 300 boys in school 125 playing football and 50 of them are great athletes. Look at how many great teams are in louisville Male,Trinity,St X, Central, Manuel all great teams with a lot of talent.

[Blau Vogel]

If there are 300 boys in "Big City High" and 300 boys in "Mountain High", why are there more ATHLETES in "Big City High"?

[honestjchsfan]

If there are 300 boys in "Big City High" and 300 boys in "Mountain High", why are there more ATHLETES in "Big City High"?

Not much Diversity here in the Mountains. Plus there is not much Industry here other than Coal mining. Lots of the problems are bought on by local goverment. County Occupational tax and City tax often keep major Manufacturing Companys out of this area. Perfect example would be comparing Paintsville to a little town across the river Called Prichard WV. Other than a small mom & pop rubber products manufacturer Paintsville has ZERO manufacturing plants. Prichard on the other hand has one the Worlds largest Auto parts makers expanding a large plant there, plus a Large Japanese factory doing CNC production work, add a large steel supplier and lots of other industrial based buisness. Add a huge railroad station that will be under constuction soon. Prichard has no County Occupational tax or a City tax plus the property tax is about 40% lower than Paintsville/Johnson CO. IF Federal ,state and Local Goverment keep sticking it to the Coal Industry that Fancy Football Field at JCHS will be Flea Market. Johnson Co managed to run off Amercian Standard who at one time provided the area with Over 800 jobs.

[Backwoods]

I think the no. of athletes on the field makes the differance. Teams from Louisville and some other places have a much bigger talent pool of kids who can make plays. Belfry has consistantly made it to the semis and the big game,but last year for sure had no where near the speed or talent on the field with Central. True that balanced offense is better,and Belfry looks to pass more this year than i have seen in some time. Everyone says no one in 3A has a chance,and it may be true. Most small area schools may field 50 to 70 kids some less with maybe a handful are great at their position. I seen someone say Central has 300 boys in school 125 playing football and 50 of them are great athletes. Look at how many great teams are in louisville Male,Trinity,St X, Central, Manuel all great teams with a lot of talent.

A couple of times this season Harlan Ind. fielded only as many as 25 player's of which only about 16 or 17 saw any playing time. Another small team would be Hazard. When they came to Harlan I think I counted 31 player's on thier sideline. Teams like this have to get the maximum potential from the player's they have available.

[Stardust]

If there are 300 boys in "Big City High" and 300 boys in "Mountain High", why are there more ATHLETES in "Big City High"?

Agreed. We are talking apples to apples here. I keep hearing the argument of number of players, but that's why we have classes. Dayton, Bellevue, Ludlow - they all have the same issues of not having enough players to field enough players to keep from having guys play every single down in the game. If you have more players, well, then you will be playing in a class of equal size in number of players.

[Blau Vogel]

Not much Diversity here in the Mountains. Plus there is not much Industry here other than Coal mining. Lots of the problems are bought on by local goverment. County Occupational tax and City tax often keep major Manufacturing Companys out of this area. Perfect example would be comparing Paintsville to a little town across the river Called Prichard WV. Other than a small mom & pop rubber products manufacturer Paintsville has ZERO manufacturing plants. Prichard on the other hand has one the Worlds largest Auto parts makers expanding a large plant there, plus a Large Japanese factory doing CNC production work, add a large steel supplier and lots of other industrial based buisness. Add a huge railroad station that will be under constuction soon. Prichard has no County Occupational tax or a City tax plus the property tax is about 40% lower than Paintsville/Johnson CO. IF Federal ,state and Local Goverment keep sticking it to the Coal Industry that Fancy Football Field at JCHS will be Flea Market. Johnson Co managed to run off Amercian Standard who at one time provided the area with Over 800 jobs.

I am sorry, but I still don't understand...What does the above have to do with two schools with the same number of students not being able to compete with each other. 300 teen aged boys from here seem the same as 300 teen aged boys there. If a coach can get 50 - 75 of them to commit to the hard work it takes it should be pretty much equal. If the coach can only get 20 - 30 out it is tough, but that is not an excuse.

[Backwoods]

Agreed. We are talking apples to apples here. I keep hearing the argument of number of players, but that's why we have classes. Dayton, Bellevue, Ludlow - they all have the same issues of not having enough players to field enough players to keep from having guys play every single down in the game. If you have more players, well, then you will be playing in a class of equal size in number of players.

There is,according to KHSAA,1,125 player's on the 32 teams in 1A football in Kentucky.The average number of player's on a 1A team is 35.1,according to KHSAA roster's for 1A. Only two teams in 1A have 48+ players and I'm sure you can guess which two teams that is. Mayfield-58 and Beechwood-63. Minus those two teams and the average number of player's on a 1A team drops to 33. With that said,I will say that back in the day,say 1983,Harlan Ind. fielded a team of about 50+ player's. The average attendance at Harlan Ind. has only very slightly dropped by maybe 20 or thirty students. So,in all actuality,Harlan Ind. should still be able to get at least 40+. But we are only getting around 30 every season. That extra 10 or 12 player's would make a difference for the Dragons. Is it that fewer high school males are interested in football these day's? And,it's hard to say that winning school's will have more player's when Hazard and Pikeville are winning schools and they also have number's down in the 30's. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Backwoods]

Fulton City only fielded 16 player's this season and ,yes,they did win one game. They beat Jackson Preperatory School in Tenn..

[red&white]

Did you not understand Louisville is a big city close to Ohio and Indiana lots of kids not just 300 so much talent in an area like that not to say that some louisville high scools bring in some talent. If my boy had a chance to play at U of L or cinn i would take him where he would be most looked at .My opinion is there is more talent in big city areas. There are some great athletes that dont play sports in some high schools

[honestjchsfan]

I am sorry, but I still don't understand...What does the above have to do with two schools with the same number of students not being able to compete with each other. 300 teen aged boys from here seem the same as 300 teen aged boys there. If a coach can get 50 - 75 of them to commit to the hard work it takes it should be pretty much equal. If the coach can only get 20 - 30 out it is tough, but that is not an excuse.

Lots of kids don't play because their parents can't afford to drive them back and forth to practice. It's not like the city here, players can't walk back and forth to practice. Some kids could really improve if they attended a summer Camp but their parents can't afford to send them. One of the reasons coach Matney has been able to put JC on the same field as HHS is because he has been able to get some of the poorer kids out for the team. If there was higher paying jobs in this area more kids would play. With more jobs there would be people moving into this area too. I will say this too, there has been lots of great Athletes in this area that were from a poorer family that came out for the team, they may have been better, faster, stronger than so and so but SO and SO played because there family had the "PULL". Coach Matney may run a "old time" system, but he plays the best players no matter who there family is. Playing the best players to HHS fans is common sense, playing the best players at JCHS is like finally walking on the moon.

[red&white]

I guess I should say more talented kid not more kids. A school may have 300 boys but out of those 300 big city schools have more talented kids. Louisville like i said has so many kids they have more high schools in that city than some counties.You could take Pike Floyd and Martin counties and maybe come up with the talent of one of those schools plain and simple.

[Iam4thecats]

One more update. Today LSU ran power down Arkansas throat. Power-O, 1 Back Power, Toss Power. Punked Arkansas and made them like it. Ran it left. Ran it right. Ran it up the middle. Had 27 first downs. 286 yards rushing.
:hilarious:
Passed the ball 29 times!

Quit making excuses and balance your offenses.
Running the ball 65% of the time in an average H.S. Game of 55 plays = 15 passes. :ChairHit:

[Iam4thecats]

Johnson Central nemesis update: Highlands tonight takes every snap from the gun and throws only 11 passes for 108 yards and ...........wait for it..........runs its way to the finals in a spread!

[Brandon40403]

U should run the offense that best suits ur kids a number of things effect this coaching changes sometimes change the offense not always whereas the teams with great tradition run pretty much the same offense when that happens ur grade school teams should run the same offense as the hs in order to prep the players that way their is no major change in offense and they can get acclimated to hs football faster once they get the game speed

[bob green]

Alright, I have tried to keep from saying this and let you all figure it out for yourselves. Offensive football is about using your sets to exploit a weakness in the defense. Whether by ground or by air your set dictates what you are able to do and where you want to attack. Different sets create different challenges and what you have the capability of doing out of that set determines how well that set will work for you. You talk about the wishbone or Highlands gun set. Everyone assumes that the bone is so predictable, well so are gun sets.

Football1, you are trying hard to say that everyone just needs to spread to win. But you need to read your own words. You said, "That is what great leaders do - they position their team to win by employing strategy that protects weaknesses and advances strength." If my QB is a weak link in my attack but I have 2 1,000 yard rushers in my backfield then I am not going to let my QB get me beat. Not to say he never gets to throw, but any pass he does throw will be safe and very calculated.

There is no rule that says you have to throw to win, or a rule that says you have to run to win. Championships have been won both ways. The key is to do what you do best.

Would Johnson Central have the same record over the last 4 years if they were a primarily shotgun team? Would Highlands have the same record if they were primarily a wishbone team?

[red&white]

Pike central runs a more west coast O but still dont come close to beating smash mouth running teams. Garrard co is the best all around team Belfry played this year fast,hard hitting,passing,running they give Belfry all they wanted but came up short.I say again play makers Belfry had that advantage as well as depth. Better all around athletes plain and simple. Central may have that same advantage 10 times over on every team in three A. We want to win kids will play hard,but who knows till the game is played.:Thumbs:

[Keepnitreal]

Lots of kids don't play because their parents can't afford to drive them back and forth to practice. It's not like the city here, players can't walk back and forth to practice. Some kids could really improve if they attended a summer Camp but their parents can't afford to send them. One of the reasons coach Matney has been able to put JC on the same field as HHS is because he has been able to get some of the poorer kids out for the team. If there was higher paying jobs in this area more kids would play. With more jobs there would be people moving into this area too. I will say this too, there has been lots of great Athletes in this area that were from a poorer family that came out for the team, they may have been better, faster, stronger than so and so but SO and SO played because there family had the "PULL". Coach Matney may run a "old time" system, but he plays the best players no matter who there family is. Playing the best players to HHS fans is common sense, playing the best players at JCHS is like finally walking on the moon.

I agree with everything you're saying. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Highlands and everything Coach Mueller has done there, but if you were to compare average income of the students households at Highlands and JC I think you would probably see a huge difference in favor of Highlands. And when you speak about poor county's, Johnson County is probably one of the more affluent in appalachia.

I don't think although, that income is as big of a factor in urban or city schools because student athletes have the ability to walk to school or home from practice because school district can be measured in terms of a couple of miles. But in rural county schools, schools in areas with high rates of poverty and like in Johnson County, as in most rural countys, It's the only public school in the entire county. Johnson County is really not all that big and its still a 20 to 30 minute drive from the outskirts of the county to Paintsville and over 20 miles one way.

So there are alot of factors that I think can give urban or suburban areas an advantage as far as getting athletes out as opposed to the rural areas.

Please don't take this as an excuse. I still believe if you want to be considered one of the best programs or teams you need to play the best. I enjoy playing Highlands every year.

[HAT51]

Smash mouth runs to set up one of 4 passes in a game. That about sums up the offensive strategy for most mountain teams. But if Mountain teams are ever going to beat teams in NKY and other places that pass more we are going to have to modernize our approach to offense. Its great when you have a scat back like Davenport or Jude who can sweep for TD's against slower corners. But that will not win you state titles any more. It will make you look great in regular season against weak opponents. That is all though.

Mountain teams would serve each other by going to balanced attacks that employ less predictable play calling strategies. Throw from the traditional run formations and spread to throw out of any down. No reason to abandon the run but it has to be balanced. When mountain team start doing this against each other they will be forced to learn how defend these teams who do this so well now and win titles doing it. Until then the king of the mountain will be runner up in the state - no matter if you are 4A or 1A.

Further, with the typical size and strength advantage teams like Harlan Cnty, Bell, Knox, and Clay bring to the line position - if they modified their offense to ensure they are passing at least 50% of the time it would force teams out of 1 deep coverage to 2 deep to defend pass which would open up the run even more. Until this happens mountain teams will not win state championships.

Hasn't Bell Co and Belfry, possibly other mountain teams that run the ball wond a few State titles? I watched Belfry win one year and threw two passes the entire game.

[HAT51]

The point is not about Bell vs Central though that certainly is worth including in the argument. For example, KC up ended a good Rock this team by going unexpectedly to a spread and only running it a few times. That got me thinking. Seeing Mountain football over the last 5 years rarely win the big games after having near perfect regular seasons also added to the puzzle.

My feeling here is simple. Predictable offenses are easier to stop. When formation dictates your play it is just not hard to stack the bodies in the right places. Adding a sharp passing attack that occupies a bigger place on the pie chart of plays would open up the field and make it harder for defenses to sit on run.

Do you have to have a good QB that can throw? I don't know. Just asking. Heck, if just lining up and throwing passes make you better, then why don't everyone do it.