Smash mouth runs to set up one of 4 passes in a game. That about sums up the offensive strategy for most mountain teams. But if Mountain teams are ever going to beat teams in NKY and other places that pass more we are going to have to modernize our approach to offense. Its great when you have a scat back like Davenport or Jude who can sweep for TD's against slower corners. But that will not win you state titles any more. It will make you look great in regular season against weak opponents. That is all though.
Mountain teams would serve each other by going to balanced attacks that employ less predictable play calling strategies. Throw from the traditional run formations and spread to throw out of any down. No reason to abandon the run but it has to be balanced. When mountain team start doing this against each other they will be forced to learn how defend these teams who do this so well now and win titles doing it. Until then the king of the mountain will be runner up in the state - no matter if you are 4A or 1A.
Further, with the typical size and strength advantage teams like Harlan Cnty, Bell, Knox, and Clay bring to the line position - if they modified their offense to ensure they are passing at least 50% of the time it would force teams out of 1 deep coverage to 2 deep to defend pass which would open up the run even more. Until this happens mountain teams will not win state championships.
In order to win titles, I believe you have to be balanced in both offense and defense. We too often see where teams that rely on running the football can't catch up to teams who put up points quickly. But that is the side of the ball that sometimes is overlooked. It's not just being balanced on offense, but if you cannot defend the pass, then you will get buried.
Stardust Wrote:In order to win titles, I believe you have to be balanced in both offense and defense. We too often see where teams that rely on running the football can't catch up to teams who put up points quickly. But that is the side of the ball that sometimes is overlooked. It's not just being balanced on offense, but if you cannot defend the pass, then you will get buried.
Agree 100000%
Personally, I prefer the mountian teams not change a thing!
I agree. Mountain teams need to modernize their offense's. Smash-mouth football can only get you so far.
Blau Vogel Wrote:Personally, I prefer the mountian teams not change a thing!
Modernized offenses can't even beat Highlands
Perry Central has modernized
How many passes did Central throw against Bell County? The difference is usually speed, offensive philosophy is secondary.
I respectfully disagree with all you "guys"...
I think football1 has a valid point regarding the balanced offense. The more weapons you can call upon, the greater the opportunity becomes to catch the defense OFF balance and pehaps even out of position.
That said, this would open up huge challenges for the defense. And defense is where I think games are won. It does a team no good to score 100 points, if the defense gives up 101. If the offense is "modernized" as football1 defines it, then the defense must learn all new criteria in how to defend against the pass, option, run etc. It could do nothing but make them better and more ready for college ball.
Just one grandmother's humble opinion....
EKUAlum05 Wrote:Modernized offenses can't even beat Highlands
Very true. haha
Granny Bear Wrote:I respectfully disagree with all you "guys"...
I think football1 has a valid point regarding the balanced offense. The more weapons you can call upon, the greater the opportunity becomes to catch the defense OFF balance and pehaps even out of position.
That said, this would open up huge challenges for the defense. And defense is where I think games are won. It does a team no good to score 100 points, if the defense gives up 101. If the offense is "modernized" as football1 defines it, then the defense must learn all new criteria in how to defend against the pass, option, run etc. It could do nothing but make them better and more ready for college ball.
Just one grandmother's humble opinion....
Granny, didn't I say that????:biggrin:
Aslan Wrote:Perry Central has modernized
:hilarious:Who are they playing this Friday??
Football1 Wrote:Smash mouth runs to set up one of 4 passes in a game. That about sums up the offensive strategy for most mountain teams. But if Mountain teams are ever going to beat teams in NKY
Boone county is one of 3 NKY teams left, the only one in 6A, and all they do is smash mouth.
Forget fixing the offense, fix the defense. If they can't score, they can't win.
hop24 Wrote::hilarious:Who are they playing this Friday??
Oh my God, I laughed so hard. You're so funny and original.
hop24 Wrote::hilarious:Who are they playing this Friday??
Coke just went out the nose (I know, I know, went the opposite way). This was FUNNY!
Everyone else has modernized their offenses except for Belfry, Johnson Central, Harlan County and a few others.
Not everyone runs the belly or veer offenses in the mountains like some of you are making others think.
Or how about this? Realizing that sometimes, you just get your butts beat by a better team? Why is that so hard to realize? Dang it bothers me so bad to hear this type of crap when one or two teams slip up.
Do you really want to know why Central beat Bell? I'll tell you why:
1) well coached, just as Bell County and several other mountain teams. Believe it or not, there are a lot of good coaches out there.
2) Athletes. Flat out. Central was far and away more athletic at every position on the field last night.
If you couldn't beat Central by lining up and running right at them, you sure as heck weren't going to beat them if Bell wanted to turn it into a track meet (spread the field). I get so sick and tired of hearing this crap once somebody gets beat! Bell just got beat. Accept that, but in order to do that, you have to come to grips with the fact that, "you know, Central was just better." But, no; let's not do that because it's a hell of a lot easier to point diners elsewhere, like the coaches and there ways of doing things than to accept the fact that my baby boy and his buddies had a great year, but in the end, they were just beat by a better team.
^^
Not talking about a specific loss.....football in general.
Stardust Wrote:Granny, didn't I say that????:biggrin:
I meant the REST of the guys, Stardust.....you're in a league of your own!!!
:1:
Granny Bear Wrote:I respectfully disagree with all you "guys"...
I think football1 has a valid point regarding the balanced offense. The more weapons you can call upon, the greater the opportunity becomes to catch the defense OFF balance and pehaps even out of position.
That said, this would open up huge challenges for the defense. And defense is where I think games are won. It does a team no good to score 100 points, if the defense gives up 101. If the offense is "modernized" as football1 defines it, then the defense must learn all new criteria in how to defend against the pass, option, run etc. It could do nothing but make them better and more ready for college ball.
Just one grandmother's humble opinion....
Granny,
No disrepect, but your thoughts are one of the reasons why having so many college and pro football games are such a bad thing for us common fans. There is such a thing as doing too much on offense. Most high schools get one day a week to practice "offense", because so many kids have to go defense and one day a week is devoted to that side of the ball, thus leaving Monday (typically used for lots of film work and introducing the weekly game plans and that leaves Thursdays primarily for walk through/review before the game on Friday.
My point in all of this? There is not enough time in the week for the vast majority of teams to do all of this offense, which is why you see so many teams build around a base offense and stick with it. You mention the veer option, which is a great offense, but do you realize the time that it takes to put that offense in? It's not something that you can just "some of the time", at least not planning on having results.
I don't think you have to have true 50/50 balance. I do think that you must be able to throw the ball when needed, though.
Granny Bear Wrote:^^
Not talking about a specific loss.....football in general.
I meant the REST of the guys, Stardust.....you're in a league of your own!!!
:1:
Really? Come on now. You're telling me that if Harlan County and Bell County had won last night that we'd be talking about this?
Nobody ever answered my question. How many passes did Central throw last night against Bell County? How balanced were they on offense? Any scheme will work if you have the athletes to carry it out.
It helps but I wouldn't say it is necessary for improvement. It just comes down to athletes and coaching. I've watched a lot of high school football around the Atlanta and DC metro areas over the past ten years or so, two of the hottest areas for football talent in the country, and most teams there run it 80-90% of the time. If you have the talent you can run whatever offense you want. I will say you can do more with less in an offense like the spread though.
RoShamBo Wrote:It helps but I wouldn't say it is necessary for improvement. It just comes down to athletes and coaching. I've watched a lot of high school football around the Atlanta and DC metro areas over the past ten years or so, two of the hottest areas for football talent in the country, and most teams there run it 80-90% of the time. If you have the talent you can run whatever offense you want. I will say you can do more with less in an offense like the spread though.
I respectfully disagree. Unless you are talking about spreading it out to run it, then I'll agree with that. Teams that spread it out and chuck it all over the place with below average QB's, are some of the worst teams I see every year. I always get a kick out of hearing the ole "we want to get our athletes the ball in space" and their so called "athletes" are lucky to run a 4.9 40 with the wind at their back.
Norm Peterson Wrote:Nobody ever answered my question. How many passes did Central throw last night against Bell County? How balanced were they on offense? Any scheme will work if you have the athletes to carry it out.
I want to say that Central attempted maybe 12 passes last night? Nomore than 15 though.
The ironic thing is, here we are talking about modernizing offenses and Central is about as basic of a team as you could watch. They run a lot a lot of pro style type sets (2 back and 1 or no TE's) and do what they do. If they don't have any success with that, then they'll spread you out in some 2x2 and trips formations and do the same things that they were trying to do under center.
If there is anybody in the state who could get fancy and "modernized", it's them. Fact of the matter though is 80% of the time they are an "old school" ball club.
Fly Like a Duck Wrote:I respectfully disagree. Unless you are talking about spreading it out to run it, then I'll agree with that. Teams that spread it out and chuck it all over the place with below average QB's, are some of the worst teams I see every year. I always get a kick out of hearing the ole "we want to get our athletes the ball in space" and their so called "athletes" are lucky to run a 4.9 40 with the wind at their back.
True but if you are small and don't have the luxury of pounding the ball behind a big O-line then you can run the spread and have a lot more options, i.e. Williamsburg.
RoShamBo Wrote:True but if you are small and don't have the luxury of pounding the ball behind a big O-line then you can run the spread and have a lot more options, i.e. Williamsburg.
Spread football has dominated the college scene for 10 years. It is now the primary offense for Pro teams. Every HS team that wins the title this year will be a spread offense. If you are a HS that does not run the spread, then you will NOT compete against good teams. Everyone will come back with their one exception, but the reality is that the game has changed and you can no longer win by lining up and running over people.
Fly Like a Duck Wrote:I want to say that Central attempted maybe 12 passes last night? Nomore than 15 though.
The ironic thing is, here we are talking about modernizing offenses and Central is about as basic of a team as you could watch. They run a lot a lot of pro style type sets (2 back and 1 or no TE's) and do what they do. If they don't have any success with that, then they'll spread you out in some 2x2 and trips formations and do the same things that they were trying to do under center.
If there is anybody in the state who could get fancy and "modernized", it's them. Fact of the matter though is 80% of the time they are an "old school" ball club.
According to the stats on that thread Central threw 5 passes last night.
Centals is a team with 1284 yards passing, so they are hardly one dimensional. But as mentioned before, they will spread you out to prevent you from putting 8 in the box
The point is not about Bell vs Central though that certainly is worth including in the argument. For example, KC up ended a good Rock this team by going unexpectedly to a spread and only running it a few times. That got me thinking. Seeing Mountain football over the last 5 years rarely win the big games after having near perfect regular seasons also added to the puzzle.
My feeling here is simple. Predictable offenses are easier to stop. When formation dictates your play it is just not hard to stack the bodies in the right places. Adding a sharp passing attack that occupies a bigger place on the pie chart of plays would open up the field and make it harder for defenses to sit on run.
Fly Like a Duck Wrote:Or how about this? Realizing that sometimes, you just get your butts beat by a better team? Why is that so hard to realize? Dang it bothers me so bad to hear this type of crap when one or two teams slip up.
Do you really want to know why Central beat Bell? I'll tell you why:
1) well coached, just as Bell County and several other mountain teams. Believe it or not, there are a lot of good coaches out there.
2) Athletes. Flat out. Central was far and away more athletic at every position on the field last night.
If you couldn't beat Central by lining up and running right at them, you sure as heck weren't going to beat them if Bell wanted to turn it into a track meet (spread the field). I get so sick and tired of hearing this crap once somebody gets beat! Bell just got beat. Accept that, but in order to do that, you have to come to grips with the fact that, "you know, Central was just better." But, no; let's not do that because it's a hell of a lot easier to point diners elsewhere, like the coaches and there ways of doing things than to accept the fact that my baby boy and his buddies had a great year, but in the end, they were just beat by a better team.
Sorry if it seems that way - but I assure you my intent was for a much broader discussion and focus than any single team. Football in the mountains has had a distinctive flavor for many years. My feeling is that approach needs modified or we will continue to lose to NKY and other teams who represent a more balanced threat.