[PaytoPlay]

Modernize? What exactly does that mean right? I think there is certainly a point to be made about being more balanced, to keep teams across the state honest.

Much of it depends of talent, but also the ingrained "this is who we are" mentality. For example, at Belfry - next season they will Start Junior Sani Warren at QB. If the kid played for Lone Oak, he would pass for 3000+ yards. The guy can sling it.

I for one hope Coach Haywood utilizes that talent, but I understand sticking to the bread and butter too. 7 of 8 years as EKU has so highlighted, Belfry has made the semi's. Now, TITLES are another thing, and the OP's post has merit.

This is a good discussion

[Real Badman]

Spread football has dominated the college scene for 10 years. It is now the primary offense for Pro teams. Every HS team that wins the title this year will be a spread offense. If you are a HS that does not run the spread, then you will NOT compete against good teams. Everyone will come back with their one exception, but the reality is that the game has changed and you can no longer win by lining up and running over people.

As times are changing I have to agree with you, those option run teams are dying in the football ranks, HS, College, and Professional. However to say "you can no longer win by lining up and running over people" is a pretty stupid statement, in any level. Look at the college ranks; Georgia Tech, Navy, Air Force, Carson Newman, and Georgia Southern all run some sort of "power" based running offense, and run it really well. Many schools have utilized the option in modern sets, like Florida and Oregon. In the NFL you can see Tim Tebow and Cam Newton running triple option just about every week, so obviously you're wrong. As for high school, I do believe we have seen cases where mountain teams who run the bone in some sort of variation won it all. You can look at how Belfry beat teams like Ashland, Pikeville, Pike Central, and Henry Clay. I know you said "Everyone will come back with their one exception", well I gave you 10 examples who run power based offenses and win football championships.

[Can you dig it?]

Boone county is one of 3 NKY teams left, the only one in 6A, and all they do is smash mouth.

Forget fixing the offense, fix the defense. If they can't score, they can't win.

More like "slap and tickle mouth".

[Fly Like a Duck]

Spread football has dominated the college scene for 10 years. It is now the primary offense for Pro teams. Every HS team that wins the title this year will be a spread offense. If you are a HS that does not run the spread, then you will NOT compete against good teams. Everyone will come back with their one exception, but the reality is that the game has changed and you can no longer win by lining up and running over people.

You are absolutely clueless. Go tell Alabama and LSU that you can't line up and run over anybody. You talked about Central being balanced and they are far from it. Can they throw the ball? Yes. Do they? Yes. They've thrown for 1,200 yds in 13 games. That's an average of less than 100 yds passing a game. I don't consider that a spred team. John Hardin has thrown for about 1,500 yds this year but hide and watch if they don't bread their butter but lining up and ramming it down your throat.

[Fly Like a Duck]

You are absolutely clueless. Go tell Alabama and LSU that you can't line up and run over anybody. You talked about Central being balanced and they are far from it. Can they throw the ball? Yes. Do they? Yes. They've thrown for 1,200 yds in 13 games. That's an average of less than 100 yds passing a game. I don't consider that a spred team. John Hardin has thrown for about 1,500 yds this year but hide and watch if they don't bread their butter but lining up and ramming it down your throat.

Wrong choice of words on my part. I belive you are wrong, though. The days of 2-3 back offenses with the use of 1 and 2 TE's are far from over. You must be able to throw the ball, as I believe is the case with teams like Central, John Hardin, Bell, Harlan, etc. Football is like fashion. Fads come and go. Old school football (wing t, wishbone, split back veer, flexbone, etc arent going anywhere and people will and will continue to win with those offenses

[Fly Like a Duck]

These are the teams left in the Elite 8 of each class, whom I know, run "traditional" offenses and their stats through 12 games

1A- Beechwood (I, Unbalanced, some spread) 3, 788 Rushing/ 1, 122 Passing

2A- Glasgow (I, Wishonbone, Power I, some spread, unbalanced) 3, 100 Rush/ 1339 Pass
Murray (wishbone, unbalanced, some spread) 1, 981 Rush/ 793 Pass

3A- Central (I, Unbalanced, some spread) 3, 159 Rush/ 1, 284 Pass
Belfry (Flexbone/Wing T) 4, 046 Rush/ 715 Rush

5A- John Hardin (Wing T/some spread) 3, 471 Rush/ 1, 494 Pass
Southwestern ( I, some spread) 3, 130 Rush/ 1, 342 Pass

6A- Scott County (Wing T) 3, 220 Rush/ 1,224 Pass
Boone County (Power I, Unbalanced, some spread) 2, 148 Rush/ 1, 433 Pass
Buter (Wishbone, Power I, Unbalanced, some spread) 2, 399/ 1, 635


Of those 10 teams who are still playing (42% of the field remaining mind you), they are only averaging 64-134 yds passing a game. Sounds to me like the whole run the ball down your throat and being able to throw it when you need (because you do need to be able and throw the ball, no doubt about it) is alive and well.

[Football1]

These are the teams left in the Elite 8 of each class, whom I know, run "traditional" offenses and their stats through 12 games

1A- Beechwood (I, Unbalanced, some spread) 3, 788 Rushing/ 1, 122 Passing

2A- Glasgow (I, Wishonbone, Power I, some spread, unbalanced) 3, 100 Rush/ 1339 Pass
Murray (wishbone, unbalanced, some spread) 1, 981 Rush/ 793 Pass

3A- Central (I, Unbalanced, some spread) 3, 159 Rush/ 1, 284 Pass
Belfry (Flexbone/Wing T) 4, 046 Rush/ 715 Rush

5A- John Hardin (Wing T/some spread) 3, 471 Rush/ 1, 494 Pass
Southwestern ( I, some spread) 3, 130 Rush/ 1, 342 Pass

6A- Scott County (Wing T) 3, 220 Rush/ 1,224 Pass
Boone County (Power I, Unbalanced, some spread) 2, 148 Rush/ 1, 433 Pass
Buter (Wishbone, Power I, Unbalanced, some spread) 2, 399/ 1, 635


Of those 10 teams who are still playing (42% of the field remaining mind you), they are only averaging 64-134 yds passing a game. Sounds to me like the whole run the ball down your throat and being able to throw it when you need (because you do need to be able and throw the ball, no doubt about it) is alive and well.

Nice post. While I agree there are plenty of teams still winning with less than a balanced attack my point is a bit more specific that winning. Having a ton of wins and coming up short on winning the championship is the problem several teams in the mountains face. We don't win the big games. I think many folks are starting to realize the fix to that problem likely rests on the playbook.

[bob green]

I think every remembers this saying, "It's Jimmy's and Joe's, not X's and O's." Balance is what everyone wants. Take what they give you and sometimes make them give you what you want. When it comes right down to it though most mountain teams just don't have the people year in and year out to have balanced offenses. It's a waste of time to do things offensively that you are not capable of and you end up making mistakes that turn a tight game into a blow out. Athletes, speed, and skill dictate what you do. That is why who ever said focus on defense is absolutely right. But your defense can still only be as good as the athletes you have. Coaches are working their buts off, but for some it is like a one legged man in a but kicking contest. So the better mountain teams will always be the ones who master their craft and play great defense.

A guy once told me that all offenses work, if they didn't then no one would be using it. It comes down to how well the offensive guys execute what the coach asks them to do.

[Stardust]

You are absolutely clueless. Go tell Alabama and LSU that you can't line up and run over anybody. You talked about Central being balanced and they are far from it. Can they throw the ball? Yes. Do they? Yes. They've thrown for 1,200 yds in 13 games. That's an average of less than 100 yds passing a game. I don't consider that a spred team. John Hardin has thrown for about 1,500 yds this year but hide and watch if they don't bread their butter but lining up and ramming it down your throat.

You obvioulsy do not know what spread football is! Spread football is! The object of the spread offense is to open up multiple vertical seams for both the running and passing game to exploit, as the defense is forced to spread itself thin across the field to cover everyone. These teams are so successful at running the football because they pull the LBs out of the center of the field! You listed Beechwood, have you ever seen them and how they put 3 WR's out??? hh:

[Fly Like a Duck]

You obvioulsy do not know what spread football is! Spread football is! The object of the spread offense is to open up multiple vertical seams for both the running and passing game to exploit, as the defense is forced to spread itself thin across the field to cover everyone. These teams are so successful at running the football because they pull the LBs out of the center of the field! You listed Beechwood, have you ever seen them and how they put 3 WR's out??? hh:

Read my post a little closer about Beechwood, genius. As a matter of fact, read a little deeper into all of the teams offenses that I wrote about and notice what I listed that they all do some of.

[Hoot Gibson]

Nice post. While I agree there are plenty of teams still winning with less than a balanced attack my point is a bit more specific that winning. Having a ton of wins and coming up short on winning the championship is the problem several teams in the mountains face. We don't win the big games. I think many folks are starting to realize the fix to that problem likely rests on the playbook.

This topic has been done over and over and over. High school football is played beyond the borders of Kentucky and there are many, many successful programs that rely primarily on a potent rushing attack.

The truth is Highlands does not dominate its class because of the offense that its coaches choose to run. It dominates because it executes that offense to near perfection and because it has extreme depth on its coaching staff.

Highlands fans constantly suggest that if Johnson Central modernize its offense to look more like Highlands' offense that it might be able to win a title. Nothing could be further from the truth. JC has been competitive with Highlands (this rebuilding year being an exception) because it runs an offense that Highlands does not see every day in practice and because it is an offense that Highlands cannot replicate on short notice in practice to prepare for single game.

The downside to not running a balanced attack is that teams like Johnson Central have no way to practice against a strong passing attack like the one that Highlands fields. IMO, this is the biggest problem with not adopting an offense like the one the Birds use. If a 4A team adopts a spread offense that does not have great depth, as well as quarterback and receiver coaches similar in quality to Chris Collingsworth, Jared Lorenzen, et al., then they will be nothing but sacrificial lambs when they meet Highlands in the playoffs.

Eastern Kentucky teams have some of the top head coaches in the state but what they don't have, to my knowledge, are staffs that include former NFL players who played "skill" positions. That alone is reason enough for teams like Johnson Central to continue to rely on offenses that shorten the game to give them their best shot at winning state titles.

The main hurdle that teams like Johnson Central must overcome to move to the next level is defending the spread - not running it.

[Fly Like a Duck]

Nice post. While I agree there are plenty of teams still winning with less than a balanced attack my point is a bit more specific that winning. Having a ton of wins and coming up short on winning the championship is the problem several teams in the mountains face. We don't win the big games. I think many folks are starting to realize the fix to that problem likely rests on the playbook.

Or the fact that our mountain teams are just flat out being out athleted in the finals? Hazard is talented, but mayfield is on another level. Belfry is physical and has goo talent, but Central is on a whole 'nother level, especially in the athlete department.

[Stardust]

This topic has been done over and over and over. High school football is played beyond the borders of Kentucky and there are many, many successful programs that rely primarily on a potent rushing attack.

The truth is Highlands does not dominate its class because of the offense that its coaches choose to run. It dominates because it executes that offense to near perfection and because it has extreme depth on its coaching staff.

Highlands fans constantly suggest that if Johnson Central modernize its offense to look more like Highlands' offense that it might be able to win a title. Nothing could be further from the truth. JC has been competitive with Highlands (this rebuilding year being an exception) because it runs an offense that Highlands does not see every day in practice and because it is an offense that Highlands cannot replicate on short notice in practice to prepare for single game.

The downside to not running a balanced attack is that teams like Johnson Central have no way to practice against a strong passing attack like the one that Highlands fields. IMO, this is the biggest problem with not adopting an offense like the one the Birds use. If a 4A team adopts a spread offense that does not have great depth, as well as quarterback and receiver coaches similar in quality to Chris Collingsworth, Jared Lorenzen, et al., then they will be nothing but sacrificial lambs when they meet Highlands in the playoffs.

Eastern Kentucky teams have some of the top head coaches in the state but what they don't have, to my knowledge, are staffs that include former NFL players who played "skill" positions. That alone is reason enough for teams like Johnson Central to continue to rely on offenses that shorten the game to give them their best shot at winning state titles.

The main hurdle that teams like Johnson Central must overcome to move to the next level is defending the spread - not running it.

I was detracted by the "Spread" questions, but this is exactly what I was referring to. Its defending an open offense more than what you are running yourself. I was not suggesting that teams change their core offense as much as I was in stating that unless you can play against and learn how to defend an open offense, you will have a difficult time competing when the only time you see it is in the playoffs against a team with equal talent! This is not a question of whose offensive style is best, but who can defend against any style of offense! I'm sure that JC plays against teams with spread offenses, but do they play against teams that have equal to talent as them running that offense?

And if you do not run a spread yourself, you certainly can't practice against it. I think you are point on and it's not knocks on regional football as much as it is style and how often you see that style in action!

[Fly Like a Duck]

By the way, in my post when I listed the offenses that teams run, you'll see "unbalanced" listed. I am referring to those schools lining up in their respected, traditional smash mouth sets and going tackles over or ends over. However, I'm sure stardust will find a more fashioned up way to explain it from some self help football knowledge book, quoting it and making him sound like Chip Kelly.

[Hoot Gibson]

I was detracted by the "Spread" questions, but this is exactly what I was referring to. Its defending an open offense more than what you are running yourself. I was not suggesting that teams change their core offense as much as I was in stating that unless you can play against and learn how to defend an open offense, you will have a difficult time competing when the only time you see it is in the playoffs against a team with equal talent! This is not a question of whose offensive style is best, but who can defend against any style of offense! I'm sure that JC plays against teams with spread offenses, but do they play against teams that have equal to talent as them running that offense?

And if you do not run a spread yourself, you certainly can't practice against it. I think you are point on and it's not knocks on regional football as much as it is style and how often you see that style in action!

The opposite is also true. A team that executes an option offense to perfection will continue to give Highlands trouble because they cannot easily prepare for it in practice. Not running an offense like Highlands runs tends to offset their strengths.

The key is to learn to defend Highlands offense well enough to slow it down enough to increase the opportunities for turnovers. Johnson Central did that last season but they did not have the depth and experience to contain Highlands' offense last week. Nor were they able to avoid their own turnovers and move the ball as effectively as they did last year.

The worse thing that a team like Johnson Central could do is to try to remake its program to look like the one that Highlands has built. Many teams have tried to emulate Highlands' offense and more often than not, they have lost by bigger margins when they have played the Bluebirds than Johnson Central has.

[Stardust]

The opposite is also true. A team that executes an option offense to perfection will continue to give Highlands trouble because they cannot easily prepare for it in practice. Not running an offense like Highlands runs tends to offset their strengths.

The key is to learn to defend Highlands offense well enough to slow it down enough to increase the opportunities for turnovers. Johnson Central did that last season but they did not have the depth and experience to contain Highlands' offense last week. Nor were they able to avoid their own turnovers and move the ball as effectively as they did last year.

The worse thing that a team like Johnson Central could do is to try to remake its program to look like the one that Highlands has built. Many teams have tried to emulate Highlands' offense and more often than not, they have lost by bigger margins when they have played the Bluebirds than Johnson Central has.

I'm not sure who runs the option, but seeing different styles of football is exactly what HHS sees each year. The purpose of playing teams in different classes has proved valuable. When they play 6A teams in NKY, they see that dominate O-Line with runs between the tackles. When they play Cincinnati teams, they see open offenses with high powered passing games. Playing Cov Cath tends to be playing in a mirror. I think that HHS has done an excellent job over the last five years of scheduling teams that gives them a flavor of what they will see come playoffs, thus gives them game film to refer back to!

[Fly Like a Duck]

Colerain (OH) is a flexbone option team to the core, but I don't think Highlands played them this year off the top of my head. Johnson Central is belly option.

[Hoot Gibson]

I'm not sure who runs the option, but seeing different styles of football is exactly what HHS sees each year. The purpose of playing teams in different classes has proved valuable. When they play 6A teams in NKY, they see that dominate O-Line with runs between the tackles. When they play Cincinnati teams, they see open offenses with high powered passing games. Playing Cov Cath tends to be playing in a mirror. I think that HHS has done an excellent job over the last five years of scheduling teams that gives them a flavor of what they will see come playoffs, thus gives them game film to refer back to!

Scheduling teams that play a particular offense is not the same as practicing against it every day in practice. Johnson Central will continue to run the ball effectively against Highlands because there is no way that Highlands can devote enough practice time during the season to replicate JC's offense well enough to stop it completely. They can and do effectively shutdown teams that run similar offenses to their own. Conversely, Johnson Central's defense is usually very good against teams that run option offenses when they face those teams in the playoffs.

There really is no good argument for teams like Johnson Central to scrap potent offenses so that they can look more like Highlands.

[Stardust]

Scheduling teams that play a particular offense is not the same as practicing against it every day in practice. Johnson Central will continue to run the ball effectively against Highlands because there is no way that Highlands can devote enough practice time during the season to replicate JC's offense well enough to stop it completely. They can and do effectively shutdown teams that run similar offenses to their own. Conversely, Johnson Central's defense is usually very good against teams that run option offenses when they face those teams in the playoffs.

There really is no good argument for teams like Johnson Central to scrap potent offenses so that they can look more like Highlands.

This is not about looking like Highlands, and not sure how it turned into that! HHS has advanced in the playoffs because they outscore the other team as much as they keep the other team from scoring against them. The theory is sound, but to ground and pound against a team that can put up points quickly, and you cannot stop them from doing it, will keep you at home for Thanksgiving. Right???

I'm not suggesting that JC change a thing on offense. My argument all along is to find a way to better prepare for the other teams offense. And if this is just about JC and HHS, then JC has yet to find a way to do that! I'd say HHS has done enough to prepare on D, at least they have the last two years.

[Hoot Gibson]

This is not about looking like Highlands, and not sure how it turned into that! HHS has advanced in the playoffs because they outscore the other team as much as they keep the other team from scoring against them. The theory is sound, but to ground and pound against a team that can put up points quickly, and you cannot stop them from doing it, will keep you at home for Thanksgiving. Right???

I'm not suggesting that JC change a thing on offense. My argument all along is to find a way to better prepare for the other teams offense. And if this is just about JC and HHS, then JC has yet to find a way to do that!

Last season, the Golden Eagles were a last second dropped touchdown pass and a two-point conversion from a regional title. I am not sure how that justifies scrapping Johnson Central's offense.

Last year's game also showed that given enough experienced players, Johnson Central's defense can contain Highlands' offense well enough to be competitive.

With all due respect, I think Jim Matney is more capable of devising the best offense for his team than you are, despite the fact that he is a mere mountain boy and you hail from the top corner of the Golden Triangle. :biggrin:

[Stardust]

Last season, the Golden Eagles were a last second dropped touchdown pass and a two-point conversion from a regional title. I am not sure how that justifies scrapping Johnson Central's offense.

Last year's game also showed that given enough experienced players, Johnson Central's defense can contain Highlands' offense well enough to be competitive.

With all due respect, I think Jim Matney is more capable of devising the best offense for his team than you are, despite the fact that he is a mere mountain boy and you hail from the top corner of the Golden Triangle. :biggrin:

:popcorn: Here we go.....

OK, if this is the same ole, same ole - Jim Matney obviously did not do enough and he is 100% to blame for giving HHS 21 points last year. The only thing the last 2nd drop proved is that JC could have prolonged the game with a tie and would still have lost because his team could not keep the Birds from scoring more points than his team!hh:

[Hoot Gibson]

:popcorn: Here we go.....

OK, if this is the same ole, same ole - Jim Matney obviously did not do enough and he is 100% to blame for giving HHS 21 points last year. The only thing the last 2nd drop proved is that JC could have prolonged the game with a tie and would still have lost because his team could not keep the Birds from scoring more points than his team!hh:

Matney would have gone for two and the win - not the tie. The game was winnable, even with Johnson Central's archaic offense. That is reason enough to think twice before "modernizing" that offense.

[Redneck]

IMO, a more balanced offense and IF you have the personel, less kids playing both ways.

[Stardust]

Matney would have gone for two and the win - not the tie. The game was winnable, even with Johnson Central's archaic offense. That is reason enough to think twice before "modernizing" that offense.

Maybe modernizing the defense would have been a better idea:welcome:

[Blau Vogel]

Scheduling teams that play a particular offense is not the same as practicing against it every day in practice. Johnson Central will continue to run the ball effectively against Highlands because there is no way that Highlands can devote enough practice time during the season to replicate JC's offense well enough to stop it completely. They can and do effectively shutdown teams that run similar offenses to their own. Conversely, Johnson Central's defense is usually very good against teams that run option offenses when they face those teams in the playoffs.

There really is no good argument for teams like Johnson Central to scrap potent offenses so that they can look more like Highlands.

I don't think anyone is suggestiing JC or any other team needs to scrap what they do best. The idea is to open things up a "little" with more than one or two forward passes per game. going into the Highlands game this year, JC had accumulated a whopping 344 yards through the air...roughly equivelant to one Highlands game. If that were trippled or even just doubled, opposing teams would at least have to have DB's respect the chance the ball might be thrown.

As I said before, I would prefer the smash mouth teams keep it on the ground and make NO changes to the way they do things. In doing so, it gives my team a better than even chance of getting up by enough points that it is impossible for grind it out teams to catch up.

[Hoot Gibson]

I don't think anyone is suggestiing JC or any other team needs to scrap what they do best. The idea is to open things up a "little" with more than one or two forward passes per game. going into the Highlands game this year, JC had accumulated a whopping 344 yards through the air...roughly equivelant to one Highlands game. If that were trippled or even just doubled, opposing teams would at least have to have DB's respect the chance the ball might be thrown.

As I said before, I would prefer the smash mouth teams keep it on the ground and make NO changes to the way they do things. In doing so, it gives my team a better than even chance of getting up by enough points that it is impossible for grind it out teams to catch up.

I would bet that Highlands' coaching staff finds it easier to prepare for teams that play more like their own team does and that is true of any good team.

Eventually, Highlands will find itself a couple of early touchdowns behind a team like Johnson Central and maybe then, Highlands' fans will come to appreciate the virtues of an offense that allows a team to dominate the time of possession and shorten the game. It's impossible to mount a comeback if you don't get enough possessions and interceptions and fumbles happen to the best of teams.

[Hoot Gibson]

Maybe modernizing the defense would have been a better idea:welcome:

Inexperience and execution was the problem with this year's team, not the defensive system. Freshmen and sophomores are supposed to make mistakes. It's how they learn.

[Tica]

Good athletes can make any offense work, be it mountains or swamps. But, you can also get beat on a trick play run by average athletes. IMO - Aside from having the talent, the greatest current deterrent to modern defenses is a hurry up/no huddle offense.

[Stardust]

Inexperience and execution was the problem with this year's team, not the defensive system. Freshmen and sophomores are supposed to make mistakes. It's how they learn.

Amybe last year the D should have focused on the 21 points instead of the offenses 14????:biggrin:

[Hoot Gibson]

Amybe last year the D should have focused on the 21 points instead of the offenses 14????:biggrin:

Maybe every other team that lost to Highlands last season should also have paid more attention to their defense.

The 21 points that Johnson Central surrendered to Highlands last season was the fewest allowed by any Highlands opponent during the 2010 season. That includes many teams that have done exactly what was suggested in this OP.

Coach Matney and his staff put last year's Golden Eagles team into a position to beat Highlands on its final possession and aside from Highlands' one loss to Ryle, no coach did any better. Maybe some teams in NKY should look at what Johnson Central is doing right that has allowed them to compete on occasion against quality teams like Highlands. The system ain't broke.