[Dragonsdad]

Bell co. must sure pay good.

[Dungy]

The Harlan Co./Corbin question is obvious. 5A v. 2A. The schedule I saw looked like what every team shoots for. Very challenging but still all games they can possibly win.

[Dragonsdad]

Harlan's schedule is very challenging. But, as you said, each game has the possibility of a win. It would not profit Harlan in any way to play a 5A school such as Harlan Co. and why would Harlan Co. want to play a 1A such as Harlan Ind.. A 5A school should play teams equal to or better than themselves. Thats how you get better. When a school has a thousand young men to chose from and another school is lucky to have a hundred to chose from it's obvious the larger school has the advantage. Why would the county lower themselves to playing teams that they have an advantage over. What good would it do U.K.to play Union College. Really this is such a dead topic theres no use in discussing further. I have noticed that Dungy, myself and others that post on this thread go to the H.C. thread and make encouraging posts aimed at H.C. having a successful season and wishing them good luck in the upcoming season. Just wish the Harlan thread could get the same respect. Harlan has a chance to go deep into the playoffs this season. Anyone would think that it would make anyone from Harlan proud.

[Dragonsdad]

Not saying that the other posters are from Harlan Co. Just trying to make my point.

[HDE]

It would profit Harlan quite a bit to play Harlan County, at least on the financial side. It would probably double the revenue for the football program whenever the game is at Harlan.

The chances of Harlan beating Harlan County were just about the same as Harlan beating Knox Central or Corbin the past two years. Knox Central beat Harlan County in a scrimmage last summer. Corbin beat Harlan County the year before.

[Dragonsdad]

I didn't think we should have played Knox Central last season. Especially the game before we started our playoff run. And, Harlan Ind. doesn't have the facilities it would require to accomodate such a crowd. The stadium at Harlan only seats about 1500 tops. I would say the crowd at that game would be about 3 to 4 thousand. Harlan Co. has 1500 show up for any home game no matter where the team they are playing is from. Harlan Ind.,about 300. Also, I'm not so sure a school should be in a sport just for the revenue.Personally, I don't think thats what it's all about. At Harlan Ind.wins will mean revenue growth,not losses to schools like H.C.,Knox Central or Bell Co.. In the early 80's we packed Joe Gilley stadium every home game, standing room only and we had 50 to 60 players every season. We played schools like Whitley Co.and Laurel Co. and we could compete with them.But, since the decline in students at the school, we're are lucky to have 30 players per season and the football program has suffered from that. If Harlan can use this season and next to rebuild our program back, the fans will come back and the revenue will come with them. There is a major issue in Harlan between city and county right now and until that is resolved, Harlan Ind. can't rely on the number of students to pick up. When the money follows the child and parents can choose where to send thier child we will be able to compete at a higher level. Until then we'll just have to try and rebuild our football program the best we can. Now, c'mon lets talk about the Dragon's 2011 season.

[HDE]

I see most of your points, but Harlan could win a Class A state title and the growth in the fan base would not match what one game with Harlan County would bring in revenue. I agree though that it's not all about revenue, but if you are going to lose to Knox Central you could make the case that you may as well lose to Harlan County and put those extra thousands toward paying off your bills. If you get at least 3,000 more fans than a normal game that would be a lot of money.

If Harlan's young players can replace the lost linemen the Dragons have a chance to be quite a bit better than last year. Beating Hazard is the key. If they can beat them, they could win a regional championship.

[Dragonsdad]

I think the Dragon's line will be better this year because they only lost two full time starters off of the line. The center replacement got a lot of playing time in last season. The two that are gone are tough ones to lose. But, thier replacements will give a little in overall size but will make up for that in speed and strength. I think the addition of coach Luttrell is going to make the biggest improvement though. He is making them aggressive. Way more aggressive than last year. Many of them have shown improvement just from the 10 days of spring drills. I think it will be apparent come August.

[Dragonsdad]

Just heard that appalachia is closing it's doors for good in ten weeks. We will be stuck with an open date if we can't fill it before season starts. Could be tough to do.

[HDE]

Interesting.
Is the merger going through?

[Yogibear]

It is going through.

[Dragonsdad]

It's been rumored that coach Donahue filled the gap with Thomas Walker. They should be a very similar team to Appalachia. I went to the Va.high school sports site and did a comparison matchup and Appalachia won the matchup on paper, but it was close. If anyone has any info on Thomas Walker I'd like to know. Please fill me in.

[HDE]

Appalachia has been a lot better than Thomas Walker in the past. I don't know about lately. I doubt Thomas Walker will be able to play with the Dragons.

[Gummie Bear]

The Harlan Co./Corbin question is obvious. 5A v. 2A. The schedule I saw looked like what every team shoots for. Very challenging but still all games they can possibly win.

You have to be delusional to believe that. Corbin plays 6a schools, 5a schools all in the past few years. Corbin wanted a game but not a home/home just wanted HC to play in the bowl game. Which would have left HC with about 3-4 home games the next two years.

Class system works in most cases but not when you are talking about traditional power teams, you can throw class size out because Corbin may be a 2a school but they beat bigger and better schools all the time.
Saem way with nky 1a schools.

[Gummie Bear]

Harlan's schedule is very challenging. But, as you said, each game has the possibility of a win. It would not profit Harlan in any way to play a 5A school such as Harlan Co. and why would Harlan Co. want to play a 1A such as Harlan Ind.. A 5A school should play teams equal to or better than themselves. Thats how you get better. When a school has a thousand young men to chose from and another school is lucky to have a hundred to chose from it's obvious the larger school has the advantage. Why would the county lower themselves to playing teams that they have an advantage over. What good would it do U.K.to play Union College. Really this is such a dead topic theres no use in discussing further.

That sounds off like a defeated team from the start of the whistle to me.
Why does newprt catholic play Highlands, 1a vs 5a, why does beechwood play covington catholic 1a vs 5a, the list can go on and on. It is because it would be a close, financial boost and rivlary between two schools 1 mile apart.

HC does not have 1000 boys to choose from either. Please dont exagerate, it is around 450-500, still larger than H Ind but that is a far cry from 1000.

Playing Corbin because they are 2a and thinking that will make your chances of winning better because of class is like believing in the tooth fairy. Sure you may beat them one day but not because of class size, and the same thing can be said about playing HC.

I think city will not play because they are already losing kids and if they did play and get beat then city is afraid of more kids leaving, just a honest opinion.

Good luck to the dragons though, always wish luck to our county neighbors to make the entire county look good!

[Dungy]

Have heard the game was now filled with Hurley, VA, a team that was 7-3 last year. All I know about them.

You are right Gummie Bear. Don't know what I was thinking.

[Dragonsdad]

That sounds off like a defeated team from the start of the whistle to me.
Why does newprt catholic play Highlands, 1a vs 5a, why does beechwood play covington catholic 1a vs 5a, the list can go on and on. It is because it would be a close, financial boost and rivlary between two schools 1 mile apart.

HC does not have 1000 boys to choose from either. Please dont exagerate, it is around 450-500, still larger than H Ind but that is a far cry from 1000.

Playing Corbin because they are 2a and thinking that will make your chances of winning better because of class is like believing in the tooth fairy. Sure you may beat them one day but not because of class size, and the same thing can be said about playing HC.

I think city will not play because they are already losing kids and if they did play and get beat then city is afraid of more kids leaving, just a honest opinion.

Good luck to the dragons though, always wish luck to our county neighbors to make the entire county look good!

The dragons are not a defeated team by any means. From the looks of things we will have the same numbers we had last year,about 31 or 32 players. Newport Catholic fielded 60 players last season and they were the 2A state champion, and they have been either 1A or 2A state champion like 4 times out of 7 times going to the finals in the last 10 years. Also, Newport catholic hasn't played Highlands in 10 years. The last time that Newport Catholic played against Highlands, as a 1A team , they got killed 62-0. What did that do for'em. When Harlan gets where Newport central Catholic is, then yes i would agree to play some 5A schools. Until then, we need wins so we can get on a roll going into the playoffs. It didn't help us one bit to get drilled by Knox Central last game of the regular season last year. I don't care to play 3A Corbin they aren't that far out of our league and are a good goal for our program. Right now we couldn't play H.C. at home because our stadium only holds,tops,1500. A Harlan/H.C. game would require seating for upwards of 4000 plus. You can't expect us to play at H.C.'s place every year. Like you I am for any county team making good and H.C. is certainly doing that. I'm proud of them. I hope they win it all this year. It is only good for the county. GO BEARS!!!

[former]

Harlan City playing Corbin, does Harlan city think Corbin will be better than Harlan Co.

I hate those who say go play a team your own level.
There are plenty of teams who are in a low class who could beat those in a big class and big teams who are not good.

I think Harlan city is afraid to play Harlan Co. since it is in county rival and they dont want to lose.

[Dungy]

I casually look at this site weekly and post about once a month. Generally, I check on high school football, my favorite sport, and mostly Pineville, Middlesboro, Harlan and Harlan County (schools in places I have lived or have friends) and Hazard, where I now live. I am not interested in debates or arguments that mean nothing and solve nothing. We as fans are largely irrelevant, especially on internet gossip boards, but it is fun to simply keep up with what is going on in places you can’t get to. You can check all of my posts and will find that this is the first reply with a specific direction.

That said, a couple of statements on here are hypocritical and, while usually amusing, they are very close to offensive due to their extreme ignorance of some facts.

Due to “Bear” in a particular poster’s name and the tone of another poster’s comments, it is easily surmised that they are fans of Harlan County High School. That’s good. So am I. What worries me is that others may think because I occasionally wear a Black Bear t-shirt that I automatically think like some of the posters on this thread.

To avoid that, here are some facts worth considering:

Harlan County’s non-district schedule (the only portion they can control) was as follows in 2010:
1. Leslie County (4-8, 2A playoffs, second round)
2. Pulaski County (11-2, 5A playoffs, third round)
3. Bell County (13-1, 4A playoffs, fourth round)
4. Lee, VA (4-6, no playoffs, Class A – smallest VA division)
5. Powell Valley, VA (5-6, playoffs first round, Class A – smallest VA division)

Coach Larkey is a great coach and builds good programs. He is doing no different at Harlan County. I am excited, and with the new alignment moving Highlands, Harlan County could actually bring a title to this area this year. Nevertheless, no one at Harlan County can cast stones at Harlan’s schedule.

An appropriate comparison does not reflect favorably.

For example,

Pulaski County (2010) was a good team in the same class (5A) reaching the third round of the playoffs. Harlan is playing Pikeville (2011) this season, a good team in the same class that reached the third round. Both games are away from home. This would have to be considered an equal opponent.

Bell County (2010) was a great team that reached the fourth round of the playoffs. They were in 4A (now dropped to 3A), a class actually beneath Harlan County. Harlan can’t go below Class A, but Corbin is 2A, actually one class above, and is a good team that also reached the fourth round. Even though Harlan County was actually playing down and Harlan playing up, this can be considered a push considering all the circumstances and where all four programs are.

Now we get to the problem…
Leslie County, Lee and Powell Valley all are three and four classes below Harlan County and all were mediocre with losing records. Harlan cannot go below Class A to get teams that would compare. Granted, Harlan should not get extra credit for scheduling Class A teams or for the fact they cannot find teams three or four classes below them. However, how can any Harlan County fan bash another team’s choice of opponents when they dipped so low for nearly a third (3 of 10) of their regular season schedule? For a proper contrast, Harlan County would have to play no lower than 5A schools (Harlan cannot go below 1A). In addition, Harlan County would have to seek out teams three and four classes up (in order to match Harlan playing Knox Central or even Harlan County, as the posters seem to want). For that to be the case, Harlan County would need to schedule Cincinnati St. Xavier, Mater Dei or at least Louisville Trinity, but most definitely not three classes below to Leslie, Lee and Powell Valley.

The only real argument that can be made is distance and location. Harlan County can reasonably say that those bigger, better teams are too far away and will not play (though I doubt there are phone records seeking a regular season game with Highlands, Trinity or even Newport Catholic, as one poster pointed out). There is no problem. You play teams you can afford to get to, that hopefully challenge you and that you think you can beat. That is what good coaches like Larkey and Donahue seek. It builds programs, wins and confidence. Too many beat downs are unproductive. Too many cupcakes make you soft. At the same time, Harlan County fans (like myself) cannot disparage Harlan’s schedule at all. Harlan County is not close to many of the good, larger schools, but they cannot get extra credit for playing the weaker, smaller schools in their area just like Harlan gets no bonus for playing Class A schools (since they cannot go any lower). Based on where the programs are, both teams have coaches that have made schedules in their best interest and should be commended, but adding Harlan County when you just got rid of Knox Central would not make sense for Harlan, and adding a fourth small school to try to beat on would not make sense for Harlan County. Again, fan appeal, proximity and income generation are the real arguments in favor of such a game, but imaginations as to students transferring, fear or Harlan needing good competition on its schedule portrayed a lack of thought that prompted a response.

[Dragonsdad]

Obviously you have thought out your comments Dungy. I appreciate that. At Harlan the coaching staff schedules games that will benefit their team. Not because they need the revenue and certainly not because they are scared. That is a ludicrus argument intended to belittle a neighboring school. Sometimes it seems as though you can't have a legitimate discussion on this thread because one illegitimate topic keeps coming up. If it is bragging rights that certain poster's seek, then I relent, H.C. is definately the powerhouse team in the county right now and it could be that way for awhile. I see H.C. as Harlan City's big brother, when it comes to football, while others see Harlan City as a thorn in their side. One thing is for sure, I will never make negative comments aimed at belittleing the kids at H.C. or their coaching staff.

[Dragonsdad]

According to the KHSAA realignment of schools, Corbin is 3A and in the same district as Bell Co. this year. In case anyone is interested.

[HDE]

Good points, Dungy. You sound like a lawyer or sportswriter, or both.

I still think if Harlan County was North Laurel or South Laurel, or even Perry Central, the game would probably be played, 5A or not.

[Gummie Bear]

According to the KHSAA realignment of schools, Corbin is 3A and in the same district as Bell Co. this year. In case anyone is interested.

If that makes you feel better saying that then by all means say it.

But to think Corbin was on the same level as Bell for the past 3-4 years is kinda funny.
it isnt about class size, like HDE said, if it were another 5A or weak 6A school they would play them.

[Gummie Bear]

I casually look at this site weekly and post about once a month. Generally, I check on high school football, my favorite sport, and mostly Pineville, Middlesboro, Harlan and Harlan County (schools in places I have lived or have friends) and Hazard, where I now live. I am not interested in debates or arguments that mean nothing and solve nothing. We as fans are largely irrelevant, especially on internet gossip boards, but it is fun to simply keep up with what is going on in places you can’t get to. You can check all of my posts and will find that this is the first reply with a specific direction.

That said, a couple of statements on here are hypocritical and, while usually amusing, they are very close to offensive due to their extreme ignorance of some facts.

Due to “Bear” in a particular poster’s name and the tone of another poster’s comments, it is easily surmised that they are fans of Harlan County High School. That’s good. So am I. What worries me is that others may think because I occasionally wear a Black Bear t-shirt that I automatically think like some of the posters on this thread.

To avoid that, here are some facts worth considering:

Harlan County’s non-district schedule (the only portion they can control) was as follows in 2010:
1. Leslie County (4-8, 2A playoffs, second round)
2. Pulaski County (11-2, 5A playoffs, third round)
3. Bell County (13-1, 4A playoffs, fourth round)
4. Lee, VA (4-6, no playoffs, Class A – smallest VA division)
5. Powell Valley, VA (5-6, playoffs first round, Class A – smallest VA division)

Coach Larkey is a great coach and builds good programs. He is doing no different at Harlan County. I am excited, and with the new alignment moving Highlands, Harlan County could actually bring a title to this area this year. Nevertheless, no one at Harlan County can cast stones at Harlan’s schedule.

An appropriate comparison does not reflect favorably.

For example,

Pulaski County (2010) was a good team in the same class (5A) reaching the third round of the playoffs. Harlan is playing Pikeville (2011) this season, a good team in the same class that reached the third round. Both games are away from home. This would have to be considered an equal opponent.

Bell County (2010) was a great team that reached the fourth round of the playoffs. They were in 4A (now dropped to 3A), a class actually beneath Harlan County. Harlan can’t go below Class A, but Corbin is 2A, actually one class above, and is a good team that also reached the fourth round. Even though Harlan County was actually playing down and Harlan playing up, this can be considered a push considering all the circumstances and where all four programs are.

Now we get to the problem…
Leslie County, Lee and Powell Valley all are three and four classes below Harlan County and all were mediocre with losing records. Harlan cannot go below Class A to get teams that would compare. Granted, Harlan should not get extra credit for scheduling Class A teams or for the fact they cannot find teams three or four classes below them. However, how can any Harlan County fan bash another team’s choice of opponents when they dipped so low for nearly a third (3 of 10) of their regular season schedule? For a proper contrast, Harlan County would have to play no lower than 5A schools (Harlan cannot go below 1A). In addition, Harlan County would have to seek out teams three and four classes up (in order to match Harlan playing Knox Central or even Harlan County, as the posters seem to want). For that to be the case, Harlan County would need to schedule Cincinnati St. Xavier, Mater Dei or at least Louisville Trinity, but most definitely not three classes below to Leslie, Lee and Powell Valley.

The only real argument that can be made is distance and location. Harlan County can reasonably say that those bigger, better teams are too far away and will not play (though I doubt there are phone records seeking a regular season game with Highlands, Trinity or even Newport Catholic, as one poster pointed out). There is no problem. You play teams you can afford to get to, that hopefully challenge you and that you think you can beat. That is what good coaches like Larkey and Donahue seek. It builds programs, wins and confidence. Too many beat downs are unproductive. Too many cupcakes make you soft. At the same time, Harlan County fans (like myself) cannot disparage Harlan’s schedule at all. Harlan County is not close to many of the good, larger schools, but they cannot get extra credit for playing the weaker, smaller schools in their area just like Harlan gets no bonus for playing Class A schools (since they cannot go any lower). Based on where the programs are, both teams have coaches that have made schedules in their best interest and should be commended, but adding Harlan County when you just got rid of Knox Central would not make sense for Harlan, and adding a fourth small school to try to beat on would not make sense for Harlan County. Again, fan appeal, proximity and income generation are the real arguments in favor of such a game, but imaginations as to students transferring, fear or Harlan needing good competition on its schedule portrayed a lack of thought that prompted a response.

It was a good read but had no revelenace in our topic or discussion. No one is jumping on Harlan Ind for thier schedule of weak opponents. They don't play weak teams in relation to thier school size.

It was always about playing HC in football because the Greendragons want to play in other sports but not football.

Once again we can all root for both teams, I do. Just have an issue with not playing someone 1 mile away that would boost $ and do nothing but good for the county/programs.

You can spin it both ways also that HC has nothing to gain by playing the city because they will always be the favorite and if they were to lose then all heck would break out and if they won then they were supposed to, yet HC would play with nothing to gain because it would be good for the county/city, etc.

Dont even go into HC nondistirct, they play the teams that will play. You know as good as we all do here that no one wants to travel to this area because it is to far out. HC has called everywhere in realtively close within 2 hours or so. No one would play in VA nearby except who is on the scheduel now. Look at the schedule that is why we are playing 3 differnet states.

[Dungy]

Tried to give Harlan County lots of credit for doing the best they can on scheduling. The comparison in scheduling is to be seen based upon the strength of each program. Corbin to Harlan is Bell to Harlan County. That was what I was trying to say. Harlan has to play Harlan County in other sports, as there are no classes under the KHSAA in basketball and baseball.

As for not being on topic, that was where the frustration, and thus the lengthy comment, came from. The real topic of this thread is how Harlan will do in 2011, yet there is now a whole page on their schedule and specifically it not including Harlan County. I read the Harlan County thread and see no Harlan fans insulting the Harlan County program. It happens consistently since I have been a member of this site, as when you say my post is irrelevant and really "funny" even as you are trying to be nice and actually reasonable.

Again, not interested in a useless debate, just got tired of trying to find out about my teams only to constantly be disappointed.

[Yogibear]

Not popular sentiment in HC, but I for one don't think they should be playing right now. It would benefit HC in absolutely no way. (maybe monetarily, but that is it) HC brought in plenty money last year.

Only benefit for Harlan as stated above would be money, but money is not everything in high school sports.

[Dragonsdad]

I've not heard a whole lot about Middlesboro this year. I know that their coach,Randy Frazier is fairly new. I hear he has an extensive background in high school football and has been associated with some successful programs. How's he doing at Middlesboro? Are they a vetran dominated team? How do they matchup with Dragons? I hear they are down a little this year,but that is only hearsay. I would like to get the low down on them if anyone knows.

[belldad2011]

I've not heard a whole lot about Middlesboro this year. I know that their coach,Randy Frazier is fairly new. I hear he has an extensive background in high school football and has been associated with some successful programs. How's he doing at Middlesboro? Are they a vetran dominated team? How do they matchup with Dragons? I hear they are down a little this year,but that is only hearsay. I would like to get the low down on them if anyone knows.

they graduated everything some of their players was saying at a track meet this .they said they will be awful. but coach fraiser is a good coach he will have them believing in no time.

[Dragonsdad]

I heard that coach Frazier did some asst. coaching at Bell. Is that true? I sort of know him in an indirect way. His wife is someone I went to school with at Harlan. But, I've only met him briefly once or twice. Not enough to talk football. They say he is a good coach. Middlesboro really hasn't been what they used to be, I don't think, since before Kenny Roark started coaching there. I would like to see them get it back. If Middlesboro could get back to thier old self just think what football would be played in Bell Co. The Middlesboro/Bell game would be huge. The only problem would be keeping the two teams fans from going at it. There are some football crazy fans all over Bell Co.. I always loved to play in Bell Co. no matter which team we played. Always a great atmosphere.

[Dungy]

I know Frazier enough to say he is a really good coach. He was at Bell for awhile. His team will be hard-nosed and a very tough addition to Harlan's schedule.