[thecavemaster]

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


Pretty much covers it right there.
That amendment had to be ratified by 38 states. Until then women would not and still would not have the right to vote.

I find it interesting that on one hand liberals scream seperation of church and state but on the other want to the govt to step in on a religious matter. Marriage has a religious beginning and is a religous act. Even if you don't believe in God, if you go through the act of being married, it is a religious act.

Yes, but the 19th Amendment interpreted essential liberty in such a way as to give women the vote. Isn't that correct? Let the church define marriage as it desires. Let the church regulate marriage as it desires. However, allow same sex couples the same exact rights as "married" people enjoy. A civil ordained union would be required for tax filings and other mundane, necessary tasks.

[Beetle01]

Yes, but the 19th Amendment interpreted essential liberty in such a way as to give women the vote. Isn't that correct? Let the church define marriage as it desires. Let the church regulate marriage as it desires. However, allow same sex couples the same exact rights as "married" people enjoy. A civil ordained union would be required for tax filings and other mundane, necessary tasks.

Why is the union of the 2 people necessary? Why do they need those rights? 2 people who are incapable of procreation do not deserve the same fundamental rights as those who can have kids. Thus requiring possibly one adult to stay home. Thus needing insurance and retirement plans to cover them. In the case of 2 homosexuals, they can both work, neither one of them needs to stay home and take care of kids they have. Thus disolving them of those rights.

[thecavemaster]

Why is the union of the 2 people necessary? Why do they need those rights? 2 people who are incapable of procreation do not deserve the same fundamental rights as those who can have kids. Thus requiring possibly one adult to stay home. Thus needing insurance and retirement plans to cover them. In the case of 2 homosexuals, they can both work, neither one of them needs to stay home and take care of kids they have. Thus disolving them of those rights.

I know quite a few homosexual couples who came to their choice after same sex marriage, thus they have children. I believe it is a matter of "equal protection under the law," which is a civil right, disconnected to and from religious beliefs, agendas, and priorities. I will concede to "the Church" the notion that "marriage" is defined as between a man and woman. However, civil "marriage" need not be. As they say, "Here I stand; I can do no other."

[Shady Grady]

Say all you want to about their rights, it is still wrong. True there were amendments concerning women voting and slavery. Not quite the same as murder and homosexual. God made a man and a woman in the beginning, not two men and not two women. And yes it does affect me when my tax dollars are being spend to provide health care for for same sex marriage partners. Like someone said earlier, get 38 states to agree and amend the constitution. No matter how many of you say it is their right, God says otherwise. And how long before people can put away their parents because they don't want them? And by put away, I mean put them down.

[DevilsWin]

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


Pretty much covers it right there.
That amendment had to be ratified by 38 states. Until then women would not and still would not have the right to vote.

I find it interesting that on one hand liberals scream seperation of church and state but on the other want to the govt to step in on a religious matter. Marriage has a religious beginning and is a religous act. Even if you don't believe in God, if you go through the act of being married, it is a religious act.

I've been to weddings where there was no mention of Jesus, The Lord or The Bible.

[DevilsWin]

Why is the union of the 2 people necessary? Why do they need those rights? 2 people who are incapable of procreation do not deserve the same fundamental rights as those who can have kids. Thus requiring possibly one adult to stay home. Thus needing insurance and retirement plans to cover them. In the case of 2 homosexuals, they can both work, neither one of them needs to stay home and take care of kids they have. Thus disolving them of those rights.

Beetle you are a cruel person.

[thecavemaster]

Say all you want to about their rights, it is still wrong. True there were amendments concerning women voting and slavery. Not quite the same as murder and homosexual. God made a man and a woman in the beginning, not two men and not two women. And yes it does affect me when my tax dollars are being spend to provide health care for for same sex marriage partners. Like someone said earlier, get 38 states to agree and amend the constitution. No matter how many of you say it is their right, God says otherwise. And how long before people can put away their parents because they don't want them? And by put away, I mean put them down.

I'm not sure two "civil marriage" gay professionals need your tax money. This is a bogus argument, SG. In your faith, you are free to define marriage as you wish. No one seeks to mess with that. A Constituional democracy such as ours grants equal protection under the law; this is not a comment on what "god" says is wrong or right. I'm not sure how maw and paw fit in here, but I don't think the purposeful killing of them is in our near future.

[ComfortEagle]

Why is the union of the 2 people necessary? Why do they need those rights? 2 people who are incapable of procreation do not deserve the same fundamental rights as those who can have kids. Thus requiring possibly one adult to stay home. Thus needing insurance and retirement plans to cover them. In the case of 2 homosexuals, they can both work, neither one of them needs to stay home and take care of kids they have. Thus disolving them of those rights.

Based on your arguments, do you also feel that a heterosexual couple who cannot procreate should be denied these rights?

Sometimes men and/or women aren't fertile, and this keeps them from procreating. So should they also be denied these rights?

BTW, gay couples can raise children through adoption. And there are studies that prove that homoexual couples raise there children just as well as heterosexual couples, and no, the parent(s) sexual orientation has no effect on what the child's sexual orientation will be...that was also covered in the study. (My source: "Child Development" John Santrock, Ph.D)

[sherman14]

Why is the union of the 2 people necessary? Why do they need those rights? 2 people who are incapable of procreation do not deserve the same fundamental rights as those who can have kids. Thus requiring possibly one adult to stay home. Thus needing insurance and retirement plans to cover them. In the case of 2 homosexuals, they can both work, neither one of them needs to stay home and take care of kids they have. Thus disolving them of those rights.

I agree with you on this one.

[Shady Grady]

I'm not sure two "civil marriage" gay professionals need your tax money. This is a bogus argument, SG. In your faith, you are free to define marriage as you wish. No one seeks to mess with that. A Constituional democracy such as ours grants equal protection under the law; this is not a comment on what "god" says is wrong or right. I'm not sure how maw and paw fit in here, but I don't think the purposeful killing of them is in our near future.

When state university personnel have "partnership" benefits, then my tax money is being spent to support this. This is how maw and paw fits: if we can kill unborn children because they are not wanted, then someday the people will see fit to rid society of unwanted, burdensome old folks who have no use.

[The Guru]

Wow! There are some really god arguments on here.
I am Pro-Choice. I believe in the pill. If it is legal, I am fine with it. I may not agree with every situation, but until it is outlawed, I hate the violent protesters. You know.... the one's that act like it is horrible for a woman to choose an abortion because let's say her Doctor told her that if she went through with having the baby it would probably kill her and little chance of the baby surviving. But then these radicals think it is ok to bomb the Doctor and kill him. There are several very good reasons for women to choose abortion. But I also hate to see ignorant butts use abortion like birth control.
I am really torn over the way I feel about the death penalty. My father was killed in the line of duty and the guy that shot him spent 14 years in prison befor he died. Our tax dollars spent every year on health care for this guy more than most of us will ever make. That really sets me off! I remember being at his parole hearing and watching my mother and sisters crying and pleading with the board to not release him.....when they asked me how I felt....I said let him out, cause I can't get to him while he is in prison.
Anyway....be pro choice and let God be our Judge. Think how ever you want about it, but please don't condem people for what they do as long as it is legal. If it is too bad....they will pay the ultimate price. I also think that anyone that has more than one child that our tax dollars pay for needs to have a vaectomy or tubal. Having a kid to up your Government check is just wrong. Also limit the amount of benifits people can have.

[Shady Grady]

Wow! There are some really god arguments on here.
I am Pro-Choice. I believe in the pill. If it is legal, I am fine with it. I may not agree with every situation, but until it is outlawed, I hate the violent protesters. You know.... the one's that act like it is horrible for a woman to choose an abortion because let's say her Doctor told her that if she went through with having the baby it would probably kill her and little chance of the baby surviving. But then these radicals think it is ok to bomb the Doctor and kill him. There are several very good reasons for women to choose abortion. But I also hate to see ignorant butts use abortion like birth control.
I am really torn over the way I feel about the death penalty. My father was killed in the line of duty and the guy that shot him spent 14 years in prison befor he died. Our tax dollars spent every year on health care for this guy more than most of us will ever make. That really sets me off! I remember being at his parole hearing and watching my mother and sisters crying and pleading with the board to not release him.....when they asked me how I felt....I said let him out, cause I can't get to him while he is in prison.
Anyway....be pro choice and let God be our Judge. Think how ever you want about it, but please don't condem people for what they do as long as it is legal. If it is too bad....they will pay the ultimate price. I also think that anyone that has more than one child that our tax dollars pay for needs to have a vaectomy or tubal. Having a kid to up your Government check is just wrong. Also limit the amount of benifits people can have.

Some very intelligent remarks guru. I am also against violent protesters. Two wrongs don't make a right. I think the bible supports the death penalty. We must pay for our wrongdoings. And like you, I hate for our tax dollars to keep up those men like you spoke of. And I do agree with you, that something needs to be done about women bringing unwanted children in this world for a check or other selfish reasons. But if we are going to be totally pro choice, shouldn't it be my choice as to whether or not I want to wear a seatbelt? The only life that affects is mine. If I decide not to wear a seatbelt, does that harm anyone else in any way? No. That is what I can't figure out. This country is pro choice on some matters but not all. And by the way, for what it's worth, I really hate that you lost you dad that way. It always hurts to lose a parent, but to lose one in such an unneccessary way has to be especially tough.

[thecavemaster]

When state university personnel have "partnership" benefits, then my tax money is being spent to support this. This is how maw and paw fits: if we can kill unborn children because they are not wanted, then someday the people will see fit to rid society of unwanted, burdensome old folks who have no use.

My argument here refers to fertilized egg in terms of relative value to human being existing outside the womb. The elderly don't fit the parameters within what I am arguing. However, and this is on a different line, a time might come, if healthcare costs keep skytocketing where hard decisions have to be made in terms of "extension of life" care, a cost-benefit analysis in terms of treatment as opposed to quality of life/productivity for the patient. I'm not saying this is an optimum outcome...but it is possible.

[thecavemaster]

When state university personnel have "partnership" benefits, then my tax money is being spent to support this. This is how maw and paw fits: if we can kill unborn children because they are not wanted, then someday the people will see fit to rid society of unwanted, burdensome old folks who have no use.

Lots of public funded colleges in Kentucky have housing. In that housing, heterosexual students often have intercourse. Is that your tax dollars at work? Providing the very housing for the fornicators?

[Beetle01]

My argument here refers to fertilized egg in terms of relative value to human being existing outside the womb. The elderly don't fit the parameters within what I am arguing. However, and this is on a different line, a time might come, if healthcare costs keep skytocketing where hard decisions have to be made in terms of "extension of life" care, a cost-benefit analysis in terms of treatment as opposed to quality of life/productivity for the patient. I'm not saying this is an optimum outcome...but it is possible.

You've got to be kidding me cave. You seem to slowly be going down a path that I just don't understand. to actually think it would be okay just to let people die to save money?

So as far as I see it from you its

Let the old and sick die if it comes to that to save money
Yet no death penalty and we will spend tons of money on incarciration.
Unrestricted abortions, if someone is 8 months 29 days pregnant, they can have an abortion.
Marital rights for homosexuals, which is an unnatural act and a disease.

Whats next? Make pedophilia legal, 10 year olds little girls marrying old men?
You could make the same argument for sicko peds, as you could for homosexuals.
What about incest? you could make the same argument for incest as well.
A line has to be drawn, and it is drawn at a man and a woman who meet the proper qualifications. Thats it, get over it.

[Shady Grady]

You've got to be kidding me cave. You seem to slowly be going down a path that I just don't understand. to actually think it would be okay just to let people die to save money?

So as far as I see it from you its

Let the old and sick die if it comes to that to save money
Yet no death penalty and we will spend tons of money on incarciration.
Unrestricted abortions, if someone is 8 months 29 days pregnant, they can have an abortion.
Marital rights for homosexuals, which is an unnatural act and a disease.

Whats next? Make pedophilia legal, 10 year olds little girls marrying old men?
You could make the same argument for sicko peds, as you could for homosexuals.
What about incest? you could make the same argument for incest as well.
A line has to be drawn, and it is drawn at a man and a woman who meet the proper qualifications. Thats it, get over it.

AMEN, Beetle!!!!!

[thecavemaster]

You've got to be kidding me cave. You seem to slowly be going down a path that I just don't understand. to actually think it would be okay just to let people die to save money?

So as far as I see it from you its

Let the old and sick die if it comes to that to save money
Yet no death penalty and we will spend tons of money on incarciration.
Unrestricted abortions, if someone is 8 months 29 days pregnant, they can have an abortion.
Marital rights for homosexuals, which is an unnatural act and a disease.

Whats next? Make pedophilia legal, 10 year olds little girls marrying old men?
You could make the same argument for sicko peds, as you could for homosexuals.
What about incest? you could make the same argument for incest as well.
A line has to be drawn, and it is drawn at a man and a woman who meet the proper qualifications. Thats it, get over it.

Civil marriage: a matter of equal protection under the law.
Do not favor letting "sick and old" people die...if you read the post, was just speculating as to that possibility in days to come given certain economic realities.
Read the posts: do not favor unrestricted abortions; in fact, first ten weeks was and is my preference.
Your other "examples" are arguments to the extreme, a common logic flaw.
I will "get over" none of what I believe.

[Beetle01]

Civil marriage: a matter of equal protection under the law.
Do not favor letting "sick and old" people die...if you read the post, was just speculating as to that possibility in days to come given certain economic realities.
Read the posts: do not favor unrestricted abortions; in fact, first ten weeks was and is my preference.
Your other "examples" are arguments to the extreme, a common logic flaw.
I will "get over" none of what I believe.

I may have been off on what you believe, however, you cannot deny homosexuality is a disease and a mental disorder. They deserve no more marital rights than a pedo or someone who partakes in incest.

[thecavemaster]

I may have been off on what you believe, however, you cannot deny homosexuality is a disease and a mental disorder. They deserve no more marital rights than a pedo or someone who partakes in incest.

I can deny it, do deny it. Did you never go to school with boys and/or girls who seemed, for lack of a better way of describing it, more masculine or feminine, who seemed, upon reflection, as if almost born headed in the direction of same sex preference? People are born predisposed to alcoholism, cancer, etc. etc. Even if same sex is a "sin," many things are "sins" that some people have to fight against harder than others... like hard- heartedness and judgment tendencies.

[Beetle01]

I can deny it, do deny it. Did you never go to school with boys and/or girls who seemed, for lack of a better way of describing it, more masculine or feminine, who seemed, upon reflection, as if almost born headed in the direction of same sex preference? People are born predisposed to alcoholism, cancer, etc. etc. Even if same sex is a "sin," many things are "sins" that some people have to fight against harder than others... like hard- heartedness and judgment tendencies.

Some people may be born more pre disposed to the disease than others. I don't argue that. Like I said you could make the same argument for Pedophile's to. Its a disease. So I guess they deserve the same marital rights. So now we have to start letting old guys marry little kids. Because we wouldn't want to deny anyone their basic rights. Come on man, the argument for gay marriage is ridiculous. There are only 2 benefits I see for them wanting. One is filing join taxes, and two is being covered by the insurance of their gay companion. Other than that there is nothing to gain but to feel like they pulled one over on people of religion and throwing it in their face by violating one of our most sacred ceremonies. Yes marriage in this country has gone to the crapper, but that is a different subject.

[Beetle01]

I can deny it, do deny it. Did you never go to school with boys and/or girls who seemed, for lack of a better way of describing it, more masculine or feminine, who seemed, upon reflection, as if almost born headed in the direction of same sex preference? People are born predisposed to alcoholism, cancer, etc. etc. Even if same sex is a "sin," many things are "sins" that some people have to fight against harder than others... like hard- heartedness and judgment tendencies.

first you deny it is a disease, then you compare it to diseases as being the same?? You need to make up your mind.

[DevilsWin]

I may have been off on what you believe, however, you cannot deny homosexuality is a disease and a mental disorder. They deserve no more marital rights than a pedo or someone who partakes in incest.

Beetle, you are full of hate, ignorance and a lack of understanding.

No one would choose to put up with the things gay childeren have to endure. I hope you have kids and they all turn out to be gay!

[Beetle01]

Beetle, you are full of hate, ignorance and a lack of understanding.

No one would choose to put up with the things gay childeren have to endure. I hope you have kids and they all turn out to be gay!

I understand completely. I have my principles and my beliefs. I will cling to them like I do my guns and my religion.

[DevilsWin]

I understand completely. I have my principles and my beliefs. I will cling to them like I do my guns and my religion.

And your Bud Light!

[Beetle01]

And your Bud Light!

How dare you accuse me of drinking that import crap. Miller Lite buddy.

[DevilsWin]

:lmao:

How dare you accuse me of drinking that import crap. Miller Lite buddy.

Just because of the calories.

[More Cowbell]

IMPORTANT!!!

Just a reminder for everyone to keep this on-topic. The title of this thread is "Birth Control and Abortion", so please keep all discussions related to that topic.

I've noticed that this thread has veered into discussing homosexuality. If anyone wants to discus that, feel free to create a new thread, but keep it out of this one.

Any future posts on the topic of homosexuality will be removed.

[kybaseball]

erved: :rules: :rules: :rules: :rules: :rules:

[sherman14]

Abotion is wrong in evey form or fashion. In the words of John Locke everyone is entitled to the basic rights of Life, Liberty, and Property. And if there government does not enforce those rights that person shall take over there government. And right here in this country we don't even enforce the first one it' a shame.

[thecavemaster]

Abotion is wrong in evey form or fashion. In the words of John Locke everyone is entitled to the basic rights of Life, Liberty, and Property. And if there government does not enforce those rights that person shall take over there government. And right here in this country we don't even enforce the first one it' a shame.

Again, Sherman 14, your assumption is that the fertilized egg is of equal value to the "All men" (human beings) phrase in the Declaration. This point has been up for debate in this thread. Your absolutism on the issue makes your opinion non-negotiable. We disagree.