[thecavemaster]

Yes just like her daughter. Her daughter and the father of the baby seem to be doing the right thing, instead of running off to a clinic to commit legalized murder and torture.

I wish we wouldn't drag her into this. I personally assisted a young woman, very young, who was frightened and alone in her pregnancy (three weeks). Her father had a "high" position in the community. She felt (real or not) that he would lose his status because of her. The father assaulted her with, "How do I know it's mine?". She was desperate and suicidal. I went to Nashville with her, helped her get a judical override. Helped her get funds for the procedure. Drove her to the clinic. Watched over the years, her become a successful lawyer, as she wanted to help girls like herself find judicial remedy. Your opinions, Beetle 01, are often offensive because you have judgment, but not mercy; your heart may not bleed, but it appears to be cold and hard.

[More Cowbell]

(1) I do not yell, "human willed miscarriage today" on the street: I do not feel guilt or need to appease guilt, despite your "Appalachian religion" based appeal to it. (2) My conscience is just fine. (3) I am pretty sure you make value judgments as to the value of human life in relative terms frequently. (4) If human beings were perfect decision makers, your absence of feeling for, what in other places on here, people refer to as "stupid women making stupid choices," might strike some in terms of self-tried abortions which lead to death (a historical reality that was very common). (5) You keep saying, "Religion has nothing to do with it." Are you serious?

Replies to you...

- Just because you seem to want to believe that my position is based on "Appalachian religion" doesn't make it so. I've told you what my position is based on, you just choose to ignore it.

- You have no position to assume that I make judgments about the value of human life; you don't know me. However, I'm pretty sure from reading your posts that you regard the life of an unborn child as having very little value.

- You mistake my position as a lack of caring for women who attempt "back-alley" abortions. On the contrary, I wish no ill will onto them, and I hope that if they do undergo such a procedure that they do not die. Two deaths is certainly worse than one, although you fail to acknowledge that no deaths would be even better. However, protecting the health of the murderer is not a valid reason to keep the murder of unborn babies legal.

[thecavemaster]

Replies to you...

- Just because you seem to want to believe that my position is based on "Appalachian religion" doesn't make it so. I've told you what my position is based on, you just choose to ignore it.

- You have no position to assume that I make judgments about the value of human life; you don't know me. However, I'm pretty sure from reading your posts that you regard the life of an unborn child as having very little value.

- You mistake my position as a lack of caring for women who attempt "back-alley" abortions. On the contrary, I wish no ill will onto them, and I hope that if they do undergo such a procedure that they do not die. Two deaths is certainly worse than one, although you fail to acknowledge that no deaths would be even better. However, protecting the health of the murderer is not a valid reason to keep the murder of unborn babies legal.

(1) A woman who chooses a miscarriage is not a murderer, unless "god" is a murderer, which in the OT he or she appears to be.
(2) Everyone makes judgments about the value of life, human or otherwise.
(3) Every woman, poor or rich, Afghan or American, should have the right to a a safe abortion.
(4) Nearly all people believe: (a) unwanted pregnancies should be avoided; (b) adoption is the best of a non-optimum situation.
(5) A fertilized egg has less value than the mother, in my opinion...not no value or very little value.

[thecavemaster]

Accident victim flown to hospital. Flat EEG. Next of kin consulted. "Donate organs?" Victim can live on life support indefinitely. Man needs a heart. Woman needs a cornea. Kid needs a kidney. Victim is sacrificed to harvest organs. We make judgments as to value of life all the time.

[DevilsWin]

Accident victim flown to hospital. Flat EEG. Next of kin consulted. "Donate organs?" Victim can live on life support indefinitely. Man needs a heart. Woman needs a cornea. Kid needs a kidney. Victim is sacrificed to harvest organs. We make judgments as to value of life all the time.

Great point Cavemaster!

[More Cowbell]

(1) A woman who chooses a miscarriage is not a murderer, unless "god" is a murderer, which in the OT he or she appears to be.
(2) Everyone makes judgments about the value of life, human or otherwise.
(3) Every woman, poor or rich, Afghan or American, should have the right to a a safe abortion.
(4) Nearly all people believe: (a) unwanted pregnancies should be avoided; (b) adoption is the best of a non-optimum situation.
(5) A fertilized egg has less value than the mother, in my opinion...not no value or very little value.

1) A woman who kills her unborn baby is not a murderer, only if the same principle applies to someone who blows another person away with a gunshot.

2) The only judgment I am making is that all human life is valuable and should be treated as such.

3) No one should be killing babies, I don't care how much money they have or how important they are. It's still murder.

4) Of course unwanted preganancies should be avoided. But if they do occur, murder is not the solution, adoption is.

5) If the fertilized egg does have value as a human life, how can it be so flippantly disregarded just because it would be an "inconvenience" to the mother?

Accident victim flown to hospital. Flat EEG. Next of kin consulted. "Donate organs?" Victim can live on life support indefinitely. Man needs a heart. Woman needs a cornea. Kid needs a kidney. Victim is sacrificed to harvest organs. We make judgments as to value of life all the time.

This situation happens all the time, but is not applicable to the abortion debate. The victim is never "sacrificed" for the purpose of harvesting organs, that is a disgusting thought. The organs are never harvested unless the person is already dead, meaning they have been declared legally dead by the appropriate medical personnel. When the decision to harvest organs is made, it's not because the victim's life has lost its value, it's because the victim no longer has life. To think that the decision to "pull the plug" is due to a comparison of the relative value of the lives of the patients is disturbing.

[DevilsWin]

Did someone say Terry Shiavo?

[bizmark]

i said that

[thecavemaster]

1) A woman who kills her unborn baby is not a murderer, only if the same principle applies to someone who blows another person away with a gunshot.

2) The only judgment I am making is that all human life is valuable and should be treated as such.

3) No one should be killing babies, I don't care how much money they have or how important they are. It's still murder.

4) Of course unwanted preganancies should be avoided. But if they do occur, murder is not the solution, adoption is.

5) If the fertilized egg does have value as a human life, how can it be so flippantly disregarded just because it would be an "inconvenience" to the mother?



This situation happens all the time, but is not applicable to the abortion debate. The victim is never "sacrificed" for the purpose of harvesting organs, that is a disgusting thought. The organs are never harvested unless the person is already dead, meaning they have been declared legally dead by the appropriate medical personnel. When the decision to harvest organs is made, it's not because the victim's life has lost its value, it's because the victim no longer has life. To think that the decision to "pull the plug" is due to a comparison of the relative value of the lives of the patients is disturbing.

The "victim" has as much ability to live, in fact they keep the victim alive so as to harvest the organs, as does a fertilized egg: both depend upon life support (machine, umbilical cord). Whether in war or peace, human life is differently valued in many, many instances. While I can see this point as debateable when applied to this issue, I cannot fathom how the general point could be. A person who has a purposed miscarriage, and the person who performs that procedure is NOT a murderer. We may as well agree to disagree on that point. If you like "legal" definitions, then Roe v. Wade is legal. Thus, you are mixing a moral value judgment with a legal one to suit your own purposes.

[DevilsWin]

:lmao:

i said that

[Beetle01]

To compare a brain dead trauma victim, or for whatever reason they are a vegtable, who's only way to live is for a machine to keep them alive is not the same as a premature baby who has brain activity but who's body just isn't strong enough yet because it did not recieve the proper growth time in the womb. To even compare the two is completely absurd. Noone is pulled off life support if they have brain wave acitivity, so why should we let the baby die? They still have a chance to recover. Even with that, there are times whem people who have been brain dead for months or even years, suddenly awake and go on to lead healthy normal lives.

For all we know Terry Schiavo could have awoke the next day. Its a decision her family will have to answer for and live with.

[thecavemaster]

To compare a brain dead trauma victim, or for whatever reason they are a vegtable, who's only way to live is for a machine to keep them alive is not the same as a premature baby who has brain activity but who's body just isn't strong enough yet because it did not recieve the proper growth time in the womb. To even compare the two is completely absurd. Noone is pulled off life support if they have brain wave acitivity, so why should we let the baby die? They still have a chance to recover. Even with that, there are times whem people who have been brain dead for months or even years, suddenly awake and go on to lead healthy normal lives.

For all we know Terry Schiavo could have awoke the next day. Its a decision her family will have to answer for and live with.

In the same way you suggest we don't know if a "brain dead" person will wake up or not, we don't know if a fertilized egg will make it full term. Here is the comparison: the person on life support and the fertilized egg are both non-viable without support (machine, umbilical cord). Without machine, Terry Schiavo does not live... "god" did not make machine; therefore, playing "god" all the same.

[Beetle01]

In the same way you suggest we don't know if a "brain dead" person will wake up or not, we don't know if a fertilized egg will make it full term. Here is the comparison: the person on life support and the fertilized egg are both non-viable without support (machine, umbilical cord). Without machine, Terry Schiavo does not live... "god" did not make machine; therefore, playing "god" all the same.

God has given us the tools to help ourselves, the minds to think for ourselves, and the responsibility to preserve every life that we can. We should be thankful for such blessings, and do what we can ensure that every child has a chance to grow and become as big and strong and hopefully smarter than all of us.

Maybe the moderate candidate who could be running for President right now, and could lead this country in the right direction was sent to us years ago. However, someone decided to have an abortion. Maybe someone who would have invented a new alternative energy source, was aborted. Maybe someone who would have found cures for MS, Lou Gherig's, Diabetes, or Cancer was sent to us, but was aborted.

[DevilsWin]

To compare a brain dead trauma victim, or for whatever reason they are a vegtable, who's only way to live is for a machine to keep them alive is not the same as a premature baby who has brain activity but who's body just isn't strong enough yet because it did not recieve the proper growth time in the womb. To even compare the two is completely absurd. Noone is pulled off life support if they have brain wave acitivity, so why should we let the baby die? They still have a chance to recover. Even with that, there are times whem people who have been brain dead for months or even years, suddenly awake and go on to lead healthy normal lives.

For all we know Terry Schiavo could have awoke the next day. Its a decision her family will have to answer for and live with.

Just ask Brad Fritz!

[DevilsWin]

God has given us the tools to help ourselves, the minds to think for ourselves, and the responsibility to preserve every life that we can. We should be thankful for such blessings, and do what we can ensure that every child has a chance to grow and become as big and strong and hopefully smarter than all of us.

Maybe the moderate candidate who could be running for President right now, and could lead this country in the right direction was sent to us years ago. However, someone decided to have an abortion. Maybe someone who would have invented a new alternative energy source, was aborted. Maybe someone who would have found cures for MS, Lou Gherig's, Diabetes, or Cancer was sent to us, but was aborted.

Everything happens for a reason.

[thecavemaster]

God has given us the tools to help ourselves, the minds to think for ourselves, and the responsibility to preserve every life that we can. We should be thankful for such blessings, and do what we can ensure that every child has a chance to grow and become as big and strong and hopefully smarter than all of us.

Maybe the moderate candidate who could be running for President right now, and could lead this country in the right direction was sent to us years ago. However, someone decided to have an abortion. Maybe someone who would have invented a new alternative energy source, was aborted. Maybe someone who would have found cures for MS, Lou Gherig's, Diabetes, or Cancer was sent to us, but was aborted.

I see. And perhaps these possible miscarriages: Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot, the Hutus, Idi Amin... blah, blah, blah and on and on through history. How many murders not committed? How many women not abused? How many children not sexually assaulted? Blah. Blah. Blah. As to your sentiments: wouldn't it be pretty to think so? And tsunamis kill hundreds of thousands. And earthquakes their millions. And on and on. Go ahead...explain god ("...thou art a god who hidest thyself"), tell us of his or her ways...and when you're done we will know as little as we did before.

[Beetle01]

Always focusing on the negative. Instead of the good.

you need to see a doctor about getting some Lexapro some other anti-depression medicine.

[thecavemaster]

Always focusing on the negative. Instead of the good.

you need to see a doctor about getting some Lexapro some other anti-depression medicine.

The same human race that produces a saint produces a Hitler. How is that negative? Isn't that reality? I am suggesting, again, that not all life is valued equally, apparently even by "god." As for the personal rancor contained in the last comment, no comment.

[Beetle01]

The same human race that produces a saint produces a Hitler. How is that negative? Isn't that reality? I am suggesting, again, that not all life is valued equally, apparently even by "god." As for the personal rancor contained in the last comment, no comment.

Hitler only rose to power and did the damage he did because Americans were not wanting to goto war again. If we step in early we crush Hitler easily before he kills so many. We are as much to blame as he is, because we could have prevented most of what happened. We also would have avoided the ensuing cold war.

[thecavemaster]

Hitler only rose to power and did the damage he did because Americans were not wanting to goto war again. If we step in early we crush Hitler easily before he kills so many. We are as much to blame as he is, because we could have prevented most of what happened. We also would have avoided the ensuing cold war.

The fact that he viewed the Jewish people as worthy of extermination, when compared to, say, Mother Theresa's desire to let the outcasts and lepers in Calcutta die with dignity ("They have been made to live like dogs: I want them to die like angels") is enough to suggest the point I'm making. I don't see as how Allied response to Hitler has real relevance.

[Beetle01]

The fact that he viewed the Jewish people as worthy of extermination, when compared to, say, Mother Theresa's desire to let the outcasts and lepers in Calcutta die with dignity ("They have been made to live like dogs: I want them to die like angels") is enough to suggest the point I'm making. I don't see as how Allied response to Hitler has real relevance.

Even with that, without WW1 Hitler would not have rose to power, nor would he have had the hate he had. He was shaped by the world around him, and that anger grew into something monstrous.

He was not born a mass murderer of Jews.

[thecavemaster]

Even with that, without WW1 Hitler would not have rose to power, nor would he have had the hate he had. He was shaped by the world around him, and that anger grew into something monstrous.

He was not born a mass murderer of Jews.

So, by that logic, god had nothing to do with it? If not by design, then the cure of cancer by an aborted fertilized egg does not thwart "god's" plan...

[Kysportsfan]

Well what about most instances when girls just go around having sex and then decide that they dont want to have the child, and have an abortion. Is this right? NO! If you decide to go "spread your legs" than you need to take responisiblity for your actions. This goes for the mother and the father.

[*Central_Cheer_Chick]

Well what about most instances when girls just go around having sex and then decide that they dont want to have the child, and have an abortion. Is this right? NO! If you decide to go "spread your legs" than you need to take responisiblity for your actions. This goes for the mother and the father.

i SO agree

[thecavemaster]

Well what about most instances when girls just go around having sex and then decide that they dont want to have the child, and have an abortion. Is this right? NO! If you decide to go "spread your legs" than you need to take responisiblity for your actions. This goes for the mother and the father.

But, I guess, people who go around smoking cigarette after smoke after smoke deserve to be able to have treatment for their cancer? So, I guess, "taking responsibility for one's actions" only goes so far in your logic?

[More Cowbell]

The "victim" has as much ability to live, in fact they keep the victim alive so as to harvest the organs, as does a fertilized egg: both depend upon life support (machine, umbilical cord). Whether in war or peace, human life is differently valued in many, many instances. While I can see this point as debateable when applied to this issue, I cannot fathom how the general point could be. A person who has a purposed miscarriage, and the person who performs that procedure is NOT a murderer. We may as well agree to disagree on that point. If you like "legal" definitions, then Roe v. Wade is legal. Thus, you are mixing a moral value judgment with a legal one to suit your own purposes.

As to the "victim" analogy, the victim is NOT alive when the organs are harvested. You cannot harvest organs from someone who has not been declared legally dead. You bring up the idea of "life support", but when someone still has brain activity and is still considered alive, they will not talk to the family about harvesting the organs. And if someone did broach the subject, they would likely get a punch to the face, and deservedly so.

I am not mixing judgments. You are the one who keeps bringing up Roe v. Wade to support your position, even though the thread is to discuss our personal opinions. Again, we all know the current law, but that doesn't make it right. As I've brought up in earlier posts, there are countless examples of unfair practices in this country that were legitimized by the law, such as denying people of color the right to vote. Being supported by a law does not make a practice right, and the legalized killing of babies is still wrong no matter what the law says.

If you do value human life, how can you justify taking the life simply for the convenience of the mother? Just because being pregnant would make it hard for a 16-year-old girl to attend high school, is not justification for the mother to kill the unborn baby.

[thecavemaster]

As to the "victim" analogy, the victim is NOT alive when the organs are harvested. You cannot harvest organs from someone who has not been declared legally dead. You bring up the idea of "life support", but when someone still has brain activity and is still considered alive, they will not talk to the family about harvesting the organs. And if someone did broach the subject, they would likely get a punch to the face, and deservedly so.

I am not mixing judgments. You are the one who keeps bringing up Roe v. Wade to support your position, even though the thread is to discuss our personal opinions. Again, we all know the current law, but that doesn't make it right. As I've brought up in earlier posts, there are countless examples of unfair practices in this country that were legitimized by the law, such as denying people of color the right to vote. Being supported by a law does not make a practice right, and the legalized killing of babies is still wrong no matter what the law says.

If you do value human life, how can you justify taking the life simply for the convenience of the mother? Just because being pregnant would make it hard for a 16-year-old girl to attend high school, is not justification for the mother to kill the unborn baby.

In pointing out that you appealed to the "legal" aspect to serve your purposes in one area, then discounted "legal" and held to the ground of some "higher" moral/universal standard in another, I did not err. You did it. While a victim lives, a judgment is made as to the value of a "life support only" existence as opposed to a "those who will benefit from the organs" person. The point is this: we (human beings) value and devalue and rank and prioritize other human lives all the time. When it comes to a fertilized egg, though, the tears flow, the Bibles wave, shouts of "innocent" abound (something not capable of guilt is not capable of innocence). I believe that the value of the mother's life exceeds that of the fertilized egg as a matter of perspective and of reason. You disagree. I will now leave it there.

[Kysportsfan]

But, I guess, people who go around smoking cigarette after smoke after smoke deserve to be able to have treatment for their cancer? So, I guess, "taking responsibility for one's actions" only goes so far in your logic?

There is a difference in smoking and having an abortion. With an abortion you are harming a human beings life and they have no say so in it, right? right! With smoking you are harming others lives, yet they do have a say so in it! They can choose not to be around the smoking. With the unborn child, they do not have a say so in their future! So, yes my," taking responsibility for one's action" does have a logic to it! If you have an abortion you ARE a murderer!

[Kysportsfan]

In pointing out that you appealed to the "legal" aspect to serve your purposes in one area, then discounted "legal" and held to the ground of some "higher" moral/universal standard in another, I did not err. You did it. While a victim lives, a judgment is made as to the value of a "life support only" existence as opposed to a "those who will benefit from the organs" person. The point is this: we (human beings) value and devalue and rank and prioritize other human lives all the time. When it comes to a fertilized egg, though, the tears flow, the Bibles wave, shouts of "innocent" abound (something not capable of guilt is not capable of innocence). I believe that the value of the mother's life exceeds that of the fertilized egg as a matter of perspective and of reason. You disagree. I will now leave it there.

The mothers life has more value, then the fertilized egg? You are an idiot!! Who are you to judge who's life has more value?

[thecavemaster]

The mothers life has more value, then the fertilized egg? You are an idiot!! Who are you to judge who's life has more value?

Are you for real? The point is this: we ALL make judgments as to the relative value of human life all the time. Have you been reading the thread, or just looking up how to spell "idiot"?