[thecavemaster]

Being born encephalitic is a horrible thing. Being born without a working brain is a terrible thing. Being born with non-viable lungs is a terrible thing. The world is full of terrible things. If it is ok for god to allow a "baby" to be born with a heart that won't work, what is so terrible about abortion?

[Beetle01]

Being born encephalitic is a horrible thing. Being born without a working brain is a terrible thing. Being born with non-viable lungs is a terrible thing. The world is full of terrible things. If it is ok for god to allow a "baby" to be born with a heart that won't work, what is so terrible about abortion?

Because your putting the decision of life and death into one person's hands.
I'm also anti-death penalty. I do not believe it is my place or anyone else's to take the life of another. Yeah I'm sure if someone commited some major crime against someone close to me I would have enough hate in me to want to and probably would kill them. However, I know deep down that it is not right and it is not up to me to judge and decide if that person lives or dies. Certain states allow executions, and I wish they didn't, I always believe someone can be saved up until the second they pass away.

[DevilsWin]

Because your putting the decision of life and death into one person's hands.
I'm also anti-death penalty. I do not believe it is my place or anyone else's to take the life of another. Yeah I'm sure if someone commited some major crime against someone close to me I would have enough hate in me to want to and probably would kill them. However, I know deep down that it is not right and it is not up to me to judge and decide if that person lives or dies. Certain states allow executions, and I wish they didn't, I always believe someone can be saved up until the second they pass away.

You and I agree on the Death Penalty. But for different reasons.

I don't support govt funding for abortions.

I don't support the death penalty because, I don't support the gov't killing anyone with my tax dollars.

If that person turns out to be innocent we have innocent blood on our hands and I'm not comfortable with that notion.

[Beetle01]

Abortion is still putting the life and death decision in one persons hands. And with gov't healthcare, your tax dollars will be allowing abortions to take place.

[thecavemaster]

Because your putting the decision of life and death into one person's hands.
I'm also anti-death penalty. I do not believe it is my place or anyone else's to take the life of another. Yeah I'm sure if someone commited some major crime against someone close to me I would have enough hate in me to want to and probably would kill them. However, I know deep down that it is not right and it is not up to me to judge and decide if that person lives or dies. Certain states allow executions, and I wish they didn't, I always believe someone can be saved up until the second they pass away.

"...it is not up to me to judge and decide if that person lives or dies..." Exactly.

[More Cowbell]

I don't hink you should have any say so because it's not your baby, your body or your future. It's her baby, her future, her life, her salvation. Only she will have to answer to her maker.

So its none of your business.

Just because it's "her baby" doesn't mean she should have the right to kill it . Your terminology implies that the baby is some sort of "property" owned by the mother, to do with as she pleases. That is a terrible way to look at a human life.

I have three kids, and just because they are "my kids" doesn't give me the right to kill them. I'm pretty sure the authorities would have something to say about that.

To me the only viable argument for the pro-choice side is to argue that a baby is not a life until it is actually born. I don't agree with that argument, but it's the only one that makes any logical sense to me.

[thecavemaster]

Just because it's "her baby" doesn't mean she should have the right to kill it . Your terminology implies that the baby is some sort of "property" owned by the mother, to do with as she pleases. That is a terrible way to look at a human life.

I have three kids, and just because they are "my kids" doesn't give me the right to kill them. I'm pretty sure the authorities would have something to say about that.

To me the only viable argument for the pro-choice side is to argue that a baby is not a life until it is actually born. I don't agree with that argument, but it's the only one that makes any logical sense to me.

If that baby is horribly encephalitic? Has only the bare rudiments of a brain? If you are suggesting that the presence of a fertilized egg directly equates to the presence of an adult human being, I can't see that that makes logical sense.

[More Cowbell]

Because your putting the decision of life and death into one person's hands.
I'm also anti-death penalty. I do not believe it is my place or anyone else's to take the life of another.

I agree with you, Beetle. I also oppose the death penalty, on the grounds that it's not our government's place to decide who lives and dies. Everyone should have the chance to live without having their life ended by the actions of another, be it an individual or a governmental body.

[More Cowbell]

If that baby is horribly encephalitic? Has only the bare rudiments of a brain? If you are suggesting that the presence of a fertilized egg directly equates to the presence of an adult human being, I can't see that that makes logical sense.

Did you even read my post? I was arguing against the use of the "It's her baby" defense, as was used earlier. I wasn't arguing about when life begins.

Since you bring it up, though, I think the argument that life begins at conception makes perfectly logical sense. A fertilized egg is not an infant, but will develop into one. A newborn infant is also not an adult, but likewise will develop into one.

Why should the health condition of the unborn even be a factor? No matter if the baby has a fully functioning brain or not, it is still a human life. It's not our place to try and play God.

Again, if you want to argue that a baby doesn't have rights until it is born, at least that has a logical basis. If you say that only completely healthy unborn children have any rights, then that doesn't hold water.

[thecavemaster]

Did you even read my post? I was arguing against the use of the "It's her baby" defense, as was used earlier. I wasn't arguing about when life begins.

Since you bring it up, though, I think the argument that life begins at conception makes perfectly logical sense. A fertilized egg is not an infant, but will develop into one. A newborn infant is also not an adult, but likewise will develop into one.

Why should the health condition of the unborn even be a factor? No matter if the baby has a fully functioning brain or not, it is still a human life. It's not our place to try and play God.

Again, if you want to argue that a baby doesn't have rights until it is born, at least that has a logical basis. If you say that only completely healthy unborn children have any rights, then that doesn't hold water.

I read your post, the "...only viable argument" part. DId I misunderstand that? Of course, an atom, when split, can make a bomb or power a light bulb. However, an atom is not a bomb simply because it can become one. god's record isn't that impressive: as I understand it, the number of miscarriages (already a fertilized egg) equals or surpasses the number of live births. So, apparently, god can abort as many fertilized eggs as he or she likes...

[More Cowbell]

God's record isn't that impressive: as I understand it, the number of miscarriages (already a fertilized egg) equals or surpasses the number of live births. So, apparently, god can abort as many fertilized eggs as he or she likes...

Death comes to all of us at some point. For some, it is after a long and prosperous life, for some it is after only a few years here on Earth, for others it is before they are even born. It is unfortunate when any human being dies.

However, a miscarriage is a natural event, and is not comparable to an abortion facilitated by an another person. They are as much alike as someone dying of a heart attack, and someone being shot and killed at the hands of another.

[thecavemaster]

Death comes to all of us at some point. For some, it is after a long and prosperous life, for some it is after only a few years here on Earth, for others it is before they are even born. It is unfortunate when any human being dies.

However, a miscarriage is a natural event, and is not comparable to an abortion facilitated by an another person. They are as much alike as someone dying of a heart attack, and someone being shot and killed at the hands of another.

Of course, your first paragraph suggests that heart attack and gun shot are similar... a few years then "bang, bang" .. a lot of years and not remembering the nitroglycerin... So, god can allow a natural event (abortion) but can't allow human beings to follow suit (abortion)?

[DevilsWin]

Just because it's "her baby" doesn't mean she should have the right to kill it . Your terminology implies that the baby is some sort of "property" owned by the mother, to do with as she pleases. That is a terrible way to look at a human life.

I have three kids, and just because they are "my kids" doesn't give me the right to kill them. I'm pretty sure the authorities would have something to say about that.

To me the only viable argument for the pro-choice side is to argue that a baby is not a life until it is actually born. I don't agree with that argument, but it's the only one that makes any logical sense to me.

Would the argument suit you better if I left out the "Her Baby" part. Because until birth it's "Her Body".

[More Cowbell]

Of course, your first paragraph suggests that heart attack and gun shot are similar... a few years then "bang, bang" .. a lot of years and not remembering the nitroglycerin... So, god can allow a natural event (abortion) but can't allow human beings to follow suit (abortion)?

To reply to both your points...

My first paragraph did not suggest any such analogy. A few years on this Earth could very well mean a child dying of cancer, or a teenager dying in a car accident. In contrast, a long, prosperous life could still end with a gunshot. The point was that death will come to everyone at some point, the difference is whether it is due to a natural event or is caused by another person.

As to your "God" question. The answer is that God allows both the natural event (miscarriage) as well as the human act of taking another life (abortion) to take place. He also allows people to die of cancer, as well as for people to commit the sinful act of murder. But that doesn't mean that because God allows something to happen that it's okay. People kill each other every day, but it's still wrong in God's eyes.

[More Cowbell]

Would the argument suit you better if I left out the "Her Baby" part. Because until birth it's "Her Body".

It is all her body... all except for that little ball of cells in her womb that represents another human life.

That is not her body.

[thecavemaster]

To reply to both your points...

My first paragraph did not suggest any such analogy. A few years on this Earth could very well mean a child dying of cancer, or a teenager dying in a car accident. In contrast, a long, prosperous life could still end with a gunshot. The point was that death will come to everyone at some point, the difference is whether it is due to a natural event or is caused by another person.

As to your "God" question. The answer is that God allows both the natural event (miscarriage) as well as the human act of taking another life (abortion) to take place. He also allows people to die of cancer, as well as for people to commit the sinful act of murder. But that doesn't mean that because God allows something to happen that it's okay. People kill each other every day, but it's still wrong in God's eyes.

While I wouldn't want to do this all day, isn't it true that god killed people en masse according to the Hebrew story as told in the old testament? So, god can kill people, but human beings can't? If god allows all this stuff and does it him or her self, isn't god the laziest guy or gal in town? Anyway, pastors and church deacons and bishops and holy fathers should take a vote and not allow abortion for church members (a vote that would be broken countless times, maybe even by women impregnated by those holy men of god), however, Roe V. Wade is the law of the land outside the church.

[Kysportsfan]

If you are not allowed to kill someone when they are out of the womb, then why should you be able to do it when they are in the womb? A human is a human, no matter where they are located.

[thecavemaster]

If you are not allowed to kill someone when they are out of the womb, then why should you be able to do it when they are in the womb? A human is a human, no matter where they are located.

In "the book," god kills people in the womb, out of the womb, around the womb...it doesn't matter. Again, if you are equating a fertilized egg with a fully functioning person, the fabric won't stretch that far.

[More Cowbell]

While I wouldn't want to do this all day, isn't it true that god killed people en masse according to the Hebrew story as told in the old testament? So, god can kill people, but human beings can't? If god allows all this stuff and does it him or her self, isn't god the laziest guy or gal in town? Anyway, pastors and church deacons and bishops and holy fathers should take a vote and not allow abortion for church members (a vote that would be broken countless times, maybe even by women impregnated by those holy men of god), however, Roe V. Wade is the law of the land outside the church.

As for your first point, just because God does something doesn't mean it's okay for us to do it. He is God and we are not. I'm not sure why you're even taking this route in your argument, because abortion isn't a Christian/non-Christian issue, it's a human rights issue. I have never supported our country's laws being based on Biblical principles, so I'm not sure why you keep using God in your arguments. I do not want anything even resembling a theocracy, I just want a government that protects everyone's basic rights. And I feel that unborn babies deserve to have their basic right to life protected, while you obviously do not.

To your second point, of course we all realize that Roe vs. Wade is the current law of the land. That isn't even the subject of this thread, the question was asked initially about our personal opinions on abortion. If you're falling back on a "It's the law" argument, that's a sign that you are running out of valid arguments. Besides, just because something is the law doesn't make it right. If I recall, wasn't it once the "law of the land" that women and minorities were not allowed to vote? Seems to me that "the law" is not always right...

[thecavemaster]

As for your first point, just because God does something doesn't mean it's okay for us to do it. He is God and we are not. I'm not sure why you're even taking this route in your argument, because abortion isn't a Christian/non-Christian issue, it's a human rights issue. I have never supported our country's laws being based on Biblical principles, so I'm not sure why you keep using God in your arguments. I do not want anything even resembling a theocracy, I just want a government that protects everyone's basic rights. And I feel that unborn babies deserve to have their basic right to life protected, while you obviously do not.

To your second point, of course we all realize that Roe vs. Wade is the current law of the land. That isn't even the subject of this thread, the question was asked initially about our personal opinions on abortion. If you're falling back on a "It's the law" argument, that's a sign that you are running out of valid arguments. Besides, just because something is the law doesn't make it right. If I recall, wasn't it once the "law of the land" that women and minorities were not allowed to vote? Seems to me that "the law" is not always right...

Good post. Don't people say that a hypocrite often expects certain behavor of others but does not apply the same standard to him or her self? We disagree here: a fertilized egg does have the same standing as a fully functioning human being. As Roe v. Wade is the law of the land, personal opinions do not trump it. I said earlier the Supreme Court is not always right. I am not suggesting you are a theocratic tyrant fan; however, isn't it true that many religious radicals don't quite respect the idea that we live in a constitutional democracy?

[DevilsWin]

Good post. Don't people say that a hypocrite often expects certain behavor of others but does not apply the same standard to him or her self? We disagree here: a fertilized egg does have the same standing as a fully functioning human being. As Roe v. Wade is the law of the land, personal opinions do not trump it. I said earlier the Supreme Court is not always right. I am not suggesting you are a theocratic tyrant fan; however, isn't it true that many religious radicals don't quite respect the idea that we live in a constitutional democracy?

Have they not noticed the signs at McCain's rallies that say, "Country First"?

[*Central_Cheer_Chick]

Why should the health condition of the unborn even be a factor? No matter if the baby has a fully functioning brain or not, it is still a human life. It's not our place to try and play God.

Again, if you want to argue that a baby doesn't have rights until it is born, at least that has a logical basis. If you say that only completely healthy unborn children have any rights, then that doesn't hold water.

I completely agree. Great job.

[DevilsWin]

I really wish we had more women getting in on this discussion.

[thecavemaster]

I really wish an eloquent pro-choice woman would get on here and voice her opinion.

[*Central_Cheer_Chick]

Abortion mainly involves 2 beings. The mother and the baby inside of her. Yes it is her body, but the baby is also a human being, no matter what stage of life it is at. It desreves the chance to live, grow, and learn just like the rest of us had. It is not our job to play God. I believe that every child is a gift from God. He put that child in you because He wanted you to have it. "God will never give you more than you can handle."

If the doctor thinks that something will be wrong with the newborn, that is still no reason to abort it. You can argue that the baby won't have much of a life at all, but how do you know? You aren't inside that child's head. Just being with their mom or dad could make their day. Not all handicapped children are depressed. I haven't known of one person to ever wish they would have been aborted.

Abortion is murder. Some people think that if you don't legalize it then it will just happen in an unsafe way anyhow. No, you can't always stop it and that sucks. But don't make it easier. Its awful when you can just walk in a building with a child inside of you and walk out hours later with that child gone forever. Not even having the chance to live. If you have an abortion, you have killed a person. And just like every other murderer, you should go to prison. Murder is murder.

So, what about the rape argument? Anyone can walk in a clinic and claim they have been raped so they can get an abortion. If they make it to where you can only have an abortion if you were raped, then the girl who was raped needs to have a police report or something. Some kind of proof that she was actually a victim. Maybe this could get more rape victims to report what happened. I still don't believe in abortion, but this could be a pretty good argument.

This will always be a tough subject and I'm sure people will disagree with my opinions. I don't expect everyone to see it the way I do and I'm not going to argue with anyone or belittle anyone for what they say. Just putting my opinion up here.

[thecavemaster]

Abortion mainly involves 2 beings. The mother and the baby inside of her. Yes it is her body, but the baby is also a human being, no matter what stage of life it is at. It desreves the chance to live, grow, and learn just like the rest of us had. It is not our job to play God. I believe that every child is a gift from God. He put that child in you because He wanted you to have it. "God will never give you more than you can handle."

If the doctor thinks that something will be wrong with the newborn, that is still no reason to abort it. You can argue that the baby won't have much of a life at all, but how do you know? You aren't inside that child's head. Just being with their mom or dad could make their day. Not all handicapped children are depressed. I haven't known of one person to ever wish they would have been aborted.

Abortion is murder. Some people think that if you don't legalize it then it will just happen in an unsafe way anyhow. No, you can't always stop it and that sucks. But don't make it easier. Its awful when you can just walk in a building with a child inside of you and walk out hours later with that child gone forever. Not even having the chance to live. If you have an abortion, you have killed a person. And just like every other murderer, you should go to prison. Murder is murder.

So, what about the rape argument? Anyone can walk in a clinic and claim they have been raped so they can get an abortion. If they make it to where you can only have an abortion if you were raped, then the girl who was raped needs to have a police report or something. Some kind of proof that she was actually a victim. Maybe this could get more rape victims to report what happened. I still don't believe in abortion, but this could be a pretty good argument.

This will always be a tough subject and I'm sure people will disagree with my opinions. I don't expect everyone to see it the way I do and I'm not going to argue with anyone or belittle anyone for what they say. Just putting my opinion up here.

Then god is a murderer because he or she kills more fertilized eggs per year (called "miscarriages") than woman decide to have abortions by far. "Oh, but he's god." Same result, same standard.

[RavenBoy]

You do what ya gotta do and live with your choices. If you kill a baby, im not going to **** for that. so whatever.

[DevilsWin]

Abortion mainly involves 2 beings. The mother and the baby inside of her. Yes it is her body, but the baby is also a human being, no matter what stage of life it is at. It desreves the chance to live, grow, and learn just like the rest of us had. It is not our job to play God. I believe that every child is a gift from God. He put that child in you because He wanted you to have it. "God will never give you more than you can handle."

If the doctor thinks that something will be wrong with the newborn, that is still no reason to abort it. You can argue that the baby won't have much of a life at all, but how do you know? You aren't inside that child's head. Just being with their mom or dad could make their day. Not all handicapped children are depressed. I haven't known of one person to ever wish they would have been aborted.

Abortion is murder. Some people think that if you don't legalize it then it will just happen in an unsafe way anyhow. No, you can't always stop it and that sucks. But don't make it easier. Its awful when you can just walk in a building with a child inside of you and walk out hours later with that child gone forever. Not even having the chance to live. If you have an abortion, you have killed a person. And just like every other murderer, you should go to prison. Murder is murder.

So, what about the rape argument? Anyone can walk in a clinic and claim they have been raped so they can get an abortion. If they make it to where you can only have an abortion if you were raped, then the girl who was raped needs to have a police report or something. Some kind of proof that she was actually a victim. Maybe this could get more rape victims to report what happened. I still don't believe in abortion, but this could be a pretty good argument.

This will always be a tough subject and I'm sure people will disagree with my opinions. I don't expect everyone to see it the way I do and I'm not going to argue with anyone or belittle anyone for what they say. Just putting my opinion up here.

In order to have proof you would have to have a trial.

How many months could that take?

By the time a verdict was rendered you could be looking at the 3rd trimester.

Unacceptable. Even for a pro-choice guy like me.

[*Central_Cheer_Chick]

Well not neccesarily a trial, but at least saying she reported it. Otherwise any girl can walk in and claim it was a rape. I was just throwing that out there as an argument though.

And I believe in God and that He choices who is here on Earth and who isn't. So no I don't believe He is a murderer. If a woman miscarries, then that is an awful thing to happen. But we shouldn't be mad at God. He has a plan for everything and we have to deal with it the best we can. Miscarrying and aborting are two different things. I believe that we will pay for what we do. But anyway, that is just my view on things.

[thecavemaster]

You do what ya gotta do and live with your choices. If you kill a baby, im not going to **** for that. so whatever.

But, you might skirt Hades for thinking the voice and authority of god resides in your own head.