[Coach_Owens87]

Here is a site that you can visit. It's an article I got a lot of info from. The orginization is respected around the world, Im speaking of National Geographic, they done a tour of this region and wrote about in this article http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0...index.html

[Old School]

yes I have visited many mine sites. But what does that have to do with anything, you can only see what the company will allow you to see. Lving in this area it is impossible not to see many old strip mines, and most of those are poorly reclamied, non native grass is sturgling to survive. Even the best reclamation efforts wont do much, it will take hundreds to thousands of years to regrow the natural forest, and the streams that are buried will never return to the past state.

Ok you mentioned 23 uses for old strip mines, Wow, out of the thousands of surface mines only 23 things are worth mentioning.10 of those sites were for airports and jails, most of those airports cant do commercial flights, so what impact does that make. The jail you mentioned in knott county doesn't exist, we share a jail with perry county.The reason most of the sites aren't used is becuase they aren't suitable to use. I do visit other sites other than the environmental sites you are criticizing me over, but no matter what side you visit they are both going to be baised, the best thing to do is to take info from both sites and come to the best conclusion. My opinion, which a lot of other people share, is that surface mining is bad for this region. Coal has been king in this region for over 100 years, and it hasn't helped us yet, what makes you think it is going to be our savior now. You need to stop thinking about yourself, and what works right now. What are we leaving the future generations? Once coal is gone, most of the companies here will follow suit and head out. What happens then?

I have never worked in the coal mines, and never will. Thats one of the big reasons I am attending college at the moment, I want a better life for myself, I dont want to be left with no option but to work in the mines.

I have heard that statistic that only 7% of eastern ky is suitable for surface mining. But that number is a little off. The projected amount of land to be affected in the next decade is one million acres for appalachia. I think that is a little more than the 6% total percent of the region that mining companies plan to affect.

We arent going to agree, so why don't we just stop arguing, it's pointless. a lot of people are starting to see that negative affects of mining, and it will be stopped. I just hope we can do it in time to save this region. These mountains define us, there our culture, our history, and our home, what will happen when they are gone. Thats the real concern here.

I only mentioned 23 because I didn't have time to type them all, apparently you missed # 19 (and the list goes on with another 75 Industrial or Commerical Operations and also includes 16 Farms or Agricultural Projects). WOW!!!

What difference does it make what the property is used for the fact is the property is being used. Yes there are 5 Airports on the list, but without surface mining creating these sites these wouldn't exist. The Big Sandy Regional Airport has a 5,000 foot runway it's still a little short for a commerical flight (Commerical flights need approx. 7,000' feet). Eastern Kentucky's topography makes it almost impossible to find a site suitable to build a 7,000' runway.

The Jail that I mentioned in Knott County is in the planning stage as was onother on the list.

Man do you realize that you just slapped over 30,000 coal miners in the face by calling them dishonest and lazy, when you said (let me qoute you "Today's coal industry isn't the same as it used to be it's not made up of unions and honest hard workers" Posted by Coach_Owens87 post # 25) Every mine or section that I've worked on has had several Christians that included Preachers, Ministers, Deacons, Sunday School Teachers that attend Church every time the doors are opened. To call these people dishonest and say they are not hard workers that their lazy just shows your IGNORANCE about everything!!!
How in the world can you call some one lazy when you have no clue of the work they do?

[Old School]

I believe the best option for energy would be wind power. Why not use all the flat land we have, and create more energy and secure jobs for the future. This is a energy that will never run out.

"The most efficient use of Appalachian land likely merits the discontinuation of MTR coupled with the development of mountain based wind farms. If this occurs, over the next 10 years coal companies could continue to provide the energy required to meet at least 13-14% of US electric demand via wind turbines and deep mining. In addition, if coal companies chose this path as opposed to MTR, 10 years down the road they will be left with close to 1,000,000 acres of forested land suitable for economic development that also supplies 3-4% of US electric demand in perpetuity." (Mike Roth)

Let's step back a minute In you post #29 you said it will take hundreds to thousands of years to regrow the natural forest, then in your post #30 you say in 10 years we will have 1,000,000 Acres of forest land suitable for economic development. Which is it 1,000 years or 10 years, see even you can't keep up with the false crap you put on here.

[Old School]

We arent going to agree, so why don't we just stop arguing, it's pointless. a lot of people are starting to see that negative affects of mining, and it will be stopped. I just hope we can do it in time to save this region. These mountains define us, there our culture, our history, and our home, what will happen when they are gone. Thats the real concern here.

I noticed that this thread has been viewed over 200 times, and I think a lot of people are also starting to see all of the false and exaggered stories you environmentalist are feeding to the public. You may be right about mining being stopped with the latest ruling in W. Va. it's very possible and we have nothing to replace the coal.

[DevilsWin]

In forums such as this when 2 people are in a seriously heated debate in the rush to present ones argument sometimes facts and figures get taken out of context.

Playing a game of statistical "gotcha" reduces the debate to the same level we have become used to seeing on cable network news channels.

I would like both Coach Owens and Old School to continue this discussion and try to find the middle ground of this issue. They should start with what they both agree on and work from there.

[DevilsWin]

You may be right about mining being stopped with the latest ruling in W. Va. it's very possible and we have nothing to replace the coal.

We live in the most beautiful part of the country IMO and Tourism should be our #1 industry.
This hand wringing over loosing the coal industry is BS anyway. The coal industry needs to be cleaned up but it doesn't need to be abolished.

[Coach_Owens87]

Let's step back a minute In you post #29 you said it will take hundreds to thousands of years to regrow the natural forest, then in your post #30 you say in 10 years we will have 1,000,000 Acres of forest land suitable for economic development. Which is it 1,000 years or 10 years, see even you can't keep up with the false crap you put on here.

Did you even read it... The message stated that over the next ten years a projected 1 million acres will be destroyed, if you use alternative energies we can save those 1 million acres.. Please read the full message before jumping to a conclusion.
Why do you continually call me bais when all the stats you can present come from the coal industry? I visit many sites from the coal company, that all say the same junk, it helps the land, we need the land, mining only impacts 10% of the mountain. OK we know the land is not valued becuase it's not being used, so why should I listen to the coal industry, you know they are only going to present facts that support them.
All you have ever been able to show me is how much money is made. But we both agree that that money is not used to help this area, so just what are you trying to prove? We do agree the a lot of things are wrong with the coal industry, and I think a lot of people who are on both sides of the issue can agree with that. For the people who think coal is the savior, look at where we are now, coal has been mined here for over 100 years, and we are still one of the poorest regions in the country. Coal is not going to save us, In West Va. Tourism brings in more money than Coal, but soon that will end, who will want to tour a barren wasteland?

The ruling in West Virginia put a stop to four pending mine permits that the Army corps of engineers issued. It was around the 4th or 5th time Corps of Engineers has been sued. We do have energy sources to replace coal, you may not like it, but we do. Coal wont last forever, we have to start thinking of alternatives not only for us, but for every generation to follow.

Oldschool, your name says it all, your of the "old" way of thinking. Were a smarter generation, we have more intelligent leaders (excluding our president), and times are changing. The political spotlight is now shining on global issues, and we are in the middle of a huge one with MTR. You cant really believe that blowing the tops off of mountains, and pushing the debris into a hollow, destroying everything nature has done is really good for this area. Were losing everything that makes this area beautiful,

I hope people reading this study the issue for themselves and come to thier own conclusion, if this happens im confident people will see the tragedy that has fallen upon this region. We should be proud to be from the mountains of eastern ky, and with that pride we should protect our home, not blow it away so others can prosper.

Just go to google and type in "Mountaintop removal", you are bombarded with thousands of hits of organizations against it, with a voice that loud, we are bound to be heard.

This is another easy site that has some startling info, it talks about the economic impact and all of the rule changes the bush administration made to the Clean Water act so that coal companies can maximize their production. The laws to protect our land are not there, thats what im fighting for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountaintop_removal

[Coach_Owens87]

I only mentioned 23 because I didn't have time to type them all, apparently you missed # 19 (and the list goes on with another 75 Industrial or Commerical Operations and also includes 16 Farms or Agricultural Projects). WOW!!!

What difference does it make what the property is used for the fact is the property is being used. Yes there are 5 Airports on the list, but without surface mining creating these sites these wouldn't exist. The Big Sandy Regional Airport has a 5,000 foot runway it's still a little short for a commerical flight (Commerical flights need approx. 7,000' feet). Eastern Kentucky's topography makes it almost impossible to find a site suitable to build a 7,000' runway.

The Jail that I mentioned in Knott County is in the planning stage as was onother on the list.

Man do you realize that you just slapped over 30,000 coal miners in the face by calling them dishonest and lazy, when you said (let me qoute you "Today's coal industry isn't the same as it used to be it's not made up of unions and honest hard workers" Posted by Coach_Owens87 post # 25) Every mine or section that I've worked on has had several Christians that included Preachers, Ministers, Deacons, Sunday School Teachers that attend Church every time the doors are opened. To call these people dishonest and say they are not hard workers that their lazy just shows your IGNORANCE about everything!!!
How in the world can you call some one lazy when you have no clue of the work they do?

Ok thanks for taking me out of context. I never called todays mine workers lazy, gosh I can really tell you watch fox news, this is classic, take my words and twist them so they make me look bad. Calm down man, I never called you lazy, just that there a lot less miners today, because of MTR. My statement was that people confuse todays mine industry with the unionized industry of the past, which isnt the case.
You think by saying Christians work in the mines that I'm going to somehow think it's ok to practice MTR, NO. I stand up for what I believe in, no matter who challenges me or disagrees with me.

And the jail in Knott county has been canceled. We share a regional jail with perry county, Knott county didnt have the money to support the jail. Just like the power plant we where supposed to get. In Knott County, two former strip mines owned by Miller Bros, and Pocahontas's coal are being used for a youth center and ATV trails. I live in Knott County, this is how I knew this. Anyone who has been alive the last 4 years knows that plan was canceled, which just goes to show that your info is not current.

[Old School]

[quote=Coach_Owens87]Did you even read it... The message stated that over the next ten years a projected 1 million acres will be destroyed, if you use alternative energies we can save those 1 million acres.. Please read the full message before jumping to a conclusion.

But we both agree that that money is not used to help this area We do agree the a lot of things are wrong with the coal industry

The ruling in West Virginia put a stop to four pending mine permits that the Army corps of engineers issued. It was around the 4th or 5th time Corps of Engineers has been sued. We do have energy sources to replace coal, you may not like it, but we do.


We should be proud to be from the mountains of eastern ky, and with that pride we should protect our home, not blow it away so others can prosper.

You may want to read your own post before jummping to conclusions nowhere in that post is the word "PROJECTED".

I said more money should be sent to the producing Counties, I did not say the money is not being used to help this area.

I never said a lot of things are wrong with the coal industry, but no industry is perfect.

You have said over and over that we have energy sources to replace coal and over and over again I have ask you what they are, and all you can come up with is Wind Power, then you tell us in 10 years it will only be able to repace about 13% of the over 50% that coal supplies now. Where is the other 37% going to come from?

You keep saying I'm only interrested in coal as a energy source, take a look back at all of my posts how many times have I stated that I have no problem with wind power and that we do need other energy sources at least 3 or 4 times.

I was reading a article on the "Cape Cod Wind Project" this project consist of 130 400 foot tall wind turbines and President Bush is supporting this project, but guess who is opposing the project the one and only U.S. Sentor Ted Kennedy. Why would Kennedy oppose a wind farm off shore at Cape Cod? Is it because he doesn't want to look at 130 400 foot tall turbines when he walks out his yard. I guess it ok to have them in our back yard but not his. You know what is ironic about this is that you, President Bush and I agree on Wind Power

[Old School]

[quote=Coach_Owens87]Ok thanks for taking me out of context. I never called todays mine workers lazy, gosh I can really tell you watch fox news, this is classic, take my words and twist them so they make me look bad. Calm down man, I never called you lazy, just that there a lot less miners today, because of MTR. My statement was that people confuse todays mine industry with the unionized industry of the past, which isnt the case.
You think by saying Christians work in the mines that I'm going to somehow think it's ok to practice MTR, NO. I stand up for what I believe in, no matter who challenges me or disagrees with me.

I didn't take you out of context, I repeated word for word your statement, how can you twist "Todays coal industry isn't the same, as it used to be it's not made up of unions and honest hard workers" you are the one that said it. I said Christians work in the mines when you accused coal miners of being DISHONEST people.

[Coach_Owens87]

[quote=Coach_Owens87]Ok thanks for taking me out of context. I never called todays mine workers lazy, gosh I can really tell you watch fox news, this is classic, take my words and twist them so they make me look bad. Calm down man, I never called you lazy, just that there a lot less miners today, because of MTR. My statement was that people confuse todays mine industry with the unionized industry of the past, which isnt the case.
You think by saying Christians work in the mines that I'm going to somehow think it's ok to practice MTR, NO. I stand up for what I believe in, no matter who challenges me or disagrees with me.

I didn't take you out of context, I repeated word for word your statement, how can you twist "Todays coal industry isn't the same, as it used to be it's not made up of unions and honest hard workers" you are the one that said it. I said Christians work in the mines when you accused coal miners of being DISHONEST people.

You can sit and put me down all you want, it's not going to change my mind.
You mention uses for former strip sites, I say that only 1% is being used. You say how much money is made, I state the money doesnt help this region. I guess I really hit a nerve with some of my statements, which is great, it's been enjoyable seeing you so ticked off.

You may have a point, In a rush to present my argument I may have said some things out of context. To read the whole article on wind power you can go to http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2006/02/16/reece/
Wind power can't solve all energy problems, but its a start, we need to break out addiction to fossil fuels.

If anyone thinks I put miners down I didnt, All I was trying to say is that the coal industry has changed, jobs have decreased and it is no longer made up the union mines like it used to be. You cant argue with that, but many people still confuse todays coal industry to that of the past, and choose not to think of the issue any farther. I just wish people would see the harm MTR is causing, but the truth has not been spoken to enough yet, knowledge is contagious, and eventually it will spread through this region. With the new google earth program people can get a view of what is happening, hopefully this will wake people up. The term dont believe it till you see it has never been so true.

We can argue all we want, but we arent going to change each others opinion. I just hope that everyone studies the issue for themselves and comes to the best conclusion.

The facts are out there for everyone to see, but obviously you only see things from one side. Not once have you ever addressed the damage done to the environment, we all share the earth and it's our duty to protect it.

This area is ravished with poverty, our drinking water is unsuitable in most areas, and our land is being destroyed. The only way to move foward is through change.

I have better things to do then involve myself in an argument that isnt proving anything.

[Old School]

OK let's look at it from this angle the Environmentalist are concerned about about coal companies filling streams and destroyiing the aquatic life in these steams, so they projest all mining projects. Why is it you never see them protesting Highway projects, they fill in more streams (with the same rock and dirt that goes into hillow fills on surface mines) than any mining operation will. Do you ever see anyone protesting raw sewage going directly into the steams, just drive up any back road or hollow in any county and look at all the straight pipes with raw sewage being dumped into the streams. When your driving anywhere in Eastern KY ever notice all of those small roads cut around the hill sides those are not from mining, those are roads loggers have made to bring the logs to a loading station. Loggers can cut roads anywhere on their leased property go thru creeks with their equipment, and even drag the logs thru the creeks, but do these Environmentlist protest Loggong operations. Why don't these Environmentist ever protest the huge shopping centers being built across the nation (did you ever look at a empty parking lot at the mall and see all of those oil spills, anti freeze leaks on the pavement, did you ever wonder what happens to those spills when it rains where does it go?). My question is why would a true Environmentalist only protest mining operation and turn a blind eye to roads filling streams, raw sewage going directly into streams, all of these other projects.

[Old School]

We live in the most beautiful part of the country IMO and Tourism should be our #1 industry.
This hand wringing over loosing the coal industry is BS anyway. The coal industry needs to be cleaned up but it doesn't need to be abolished.

Coal mining is the most regulated industry in the nation we have State inspectors (Safety, Electrical, Ventilation, DEP), Federal inspectors (Safety, Electrical, Ventilation), OSM does oversite investigations, ATF inspectors monitor our use of explosives, EPA inspections.

Coal Mining Permits have changed drastically over the years, here's a example in 1980 when I started a 500 acre mining permit appalication would constist of approx. 50 pages with about 5 or 6 maps, it would take about 3 months to have this permit appalication approved by the state and would cost about $4,000 dollars. Today this same 500 acre permit appalication will consist of over 2,000 pages with about 50 to 75 maps and will take 24 to 30 months to have this permit approved and will cost between $400,000 and $500,000 dollars. This cost does not include all of the other studies required by the state.

[Old School]

[quote=Coach_Owens87]


I guess I really hit a nerve with some of my statements, which is great, it's been enjoyable seeing you so ticked off.

We can argue all we want, but we arent going to change each others opinion. I just hope that everyone studies the issue for themselves and comes to the best conclusion.

The facts are out there for everyone to see, but obviously you only see things from one side. Not once have you ever addressed the damage done to the environment, we all share the earth and it's our duty to protect it.

I must admit you did hit a nerve with some of your statements, but I believe I also hit a nerve or two with you on some of my statements.

I agree everyone needs to study the issue for themself's.

(co87 but obviously you only see things from one side) Now this is funny lol Here I have 27 years experience in mining, I know how the mines are operated daily, I think I'm better informed (on both sides) than you want to admit. I also see what the environmentlist are accusing mining companies of doing and how so many of the accusations are exggerated. You said, (CO87 "I know all the dirty secrets of the mining companies" ) but you never worked in the coal industry, your only ties to surface mining are the visits you've made over the years. So how do you know what is going on at these mining operations you don't. Tell me what have you posted on this subject that hasn't come from the Environmentalist.

[Coach_Owens87]

OK let's look at it from this angle the Environmentalist are concerned about about coal companies filling streams and destroyiing the aquatic life in these steams, so they projest all mining projects. Why is it you never see them protesting Highway projects, they fill in more streams (with the same rock and dirt that goes into hillow fills on surface mines) than any mining operation will. Do you ever see anyone protesting raw sewage going directly into the steams, just drive up any back road or hollow in any county and look at all the straight pipes with raw sewage being dumped into the streams. When your driving anywhere in Eastern KY ever notice all of those small roads cut around the hill sides those are not from mining, those are roads loggers have made to bring the logs to a loading station. Loggers can cut roads anywhere on their leased property go thru creeks with their equipment, and even drag the logs thru the creeks, but do these Environmentlist protest Loggong operations. Why don't these Environmentist ever protest the huge shopping centers being built across the nation (did you ever look at a empty parking lot at the mall and see all of those oil spills, anti freeze leaks on the pavement, did you ever wonder what happens to those spills when it rains where does it go?). My question is why would a true Environmentalist only protest mining operation and turn a blind eye to roads filling streams, raw sewage going directly into streams, all of these other projects.

First off working in the mines makes you no more informed than john who works at food city. In this day and age, all the info we need is availble for everyone to see.

You say I have no ties, which I do, I have numerous family members who work in the mines, and dozens of freinds, I actually have two mine inspectors that I talk to on a regular basis. The only thing that your 27 years experience does it prove that your just as bais as me. I wont mining to stop, you want it to continue.

Ok there sallie, hold up. I asked about mining, and you avoid the question. Yes it's wrong to dump raw sewage into a creek, but there already polluted from mining run-off so both would have to be stopped to make a difference. The raw sewage running into creeks is not as bad as it used to be, laws have prevented that from happening.
We do protest logging operations, they do just as much harm as MTR, but during logging operations, trees can be re-grown rather quickly. Logging does not fill in streams, logging does not flattten thousands of acres of forrest, which changes the run off of water from a mountain and causes flooding. Controlled logging, not Clear cutting, could be a permanent income for this area.

Ok you mention cutting roads, and are comparing that to flattening thousands of acres of land, that just doesn't make sense. Your talking to me like I dont know what eastern ky looks like, I live here, I know about logging, raw sewage and highways, but that wasnt my question to you.
You cant compare oil spills on parking lots to the damage done by mining, come on. Have you ever looked in a creek in this area, look at the orange and black gunk on the bottom, thats magnesium, coal sludge, zinc and other metals from mining. why arent mining companies testing creek waters and doing something to prevent the run off from underground and surface mines. Thats what poising our waters and killing aquatic life, not billy bob changing oil at wal-mart. Research the slurry break in Inez, it was 20 times the size of the exxon oil spill in Buffalo, 300 million gallons of coal sludge dumped into the Big sandy, but no one heard about it. why? Becuase the mining companies kept it as quiet as possible by greatly misinforming people on the damage done. Just think about all the other suldge impound mounts in this area. There just not built to last. Research the Marsh FOrk Elementary school to see just how much coal companies care about the youth and the community.
You never answered my question about mining and the envioronment, quit throwing blame onto other issues, and answer my question straight up. Major Highways, logging, and construction do cause harm, but that wasnt my question.

[Coach_Owens87]

Oldschool here is something you dont have. there is scientific evidence that MTR is harming the enviornment. a statement was released showing this, but was ignored, just read this article to get the full story. Stop blaming other issues, and answer my question. I have proof, do you? Show me that MTR is a good thing, you cant. We only have one earth to use, we all have to protect it.

you can read the report here (union of concerned scientist)
http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integri...ining.html

[Beef]

The raw sewage running into creeks is not as bad as it used to be, laws have prevented that from happening.

Just like laws have reduced the amount of pollution that coal companies emit. Everything causes problems to the environment (except for Al Gore's house and his carbon offsets.)

Oldschool here is something you dont have. there is scientific evidence that MTR is harming the enviornment. a statement was released showing this, but was ignored, just read this article to get the full story. Stop blaming other issues, and answer my question. I have proof, do you? Show me that MTR is a good thing, you cant. We only have one earth to use, we all have to protect it.

you can read the report here (union of concerned scientist)
http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integri...ining.html

I do believe that he has showed you the evidence that MTR is good. Have you just forgotten about all the financial proof that he has given? Then again, you want it to stop. So if we quit tomorrow, the region dies. And I mean, dies.

[Coach_Owens87]

Just like laws have reduced the amount of pollution that coal companies emit. Everything causes problems to the environment (except for Al Gore's house and his carbon offsets.)


I do believe that he has showed you the evidence that MTR is good. Have you just forgotten about all the financial proof that he has given? Then again, you want it to stop. So if we quit tomorrow, the region dies. And I mean, dies.

The question I asked oldschool was about the environmental issues involved with MTR, not money, I never attempted to say Mining didn't make money, the money just doesn't help this region. It doesn't take genius to know this area is stricken with poverty, our school systems suck, and there are little no to job options outside of mining. This area is monopolized by mining, kids that get an education have little to do here, so they move off. We don't have skilled workers here, thats why no big companies we locate here.

You say if mining is stopped the region dies, I didn't say stop mining, just that MTR should be stopped, only 20% of our the national coal production comes from MTR. You say the region will die, well beef in case you haven't noticed, it's already on life support.

[Old School]

First off working in the mines makes you no more informed than john who works at food city. In this day and age, all the info we need is availble for everyone to see.

You say I have no ties, which I do, I have numerous family members who work in the mines, and dozens of freinds, I actually have two mine inspectors that I talk to on a regular basis. The only thing that your 27 years experience does it prove that your just as bais as me. I wont mining to stop, you want it to continue.

Ok there sallie, hold up. I asked about mining, and you avoid the question. Yes it's wrong to dump raw sewage into a creek, but there already polluted from mining run-off so both would have to be stopped to make a difference. The raw sewage running into creeks is not as bad as it used to be, laws have prevented that from happening.
We do protest logging operations, they do just as much harm as MTR, but during logging operations, trees can be re-grown rather quickly. Logging does not fill in streams, logging does not flattten thousands of acres of forrest, which changes the run off of water from a mountain and causes flooding. Controlled logging, not Clear cutting, could be a permanent income for this area.

Ok you mention cutting roads, and are comparing that to flattening thousands of acres of land, that just doesn't make sense. Your talking to me like I dont know what eastern ky looks like, I live here, I know about logging, raw sewage and highways, but that wasnt my question to you.
You cant compare oil spills on parking lots to the damage done by mining, come on. Have you ever looked in a creek in this area, look at the orange and black gunk on the bottom, thats magnesium, coal sludge, zinc and other metals from mining. why arent mining companies testing creek waters and doing something to prevent the run off from underground and surface mines. Thats what poising our waters and killing aquatic life, not billy bob changing oil at wal-mart. Research the slurry break in Inez, it was 20 times the size of the exxon oil spill in Buffalo, 300 million gallons of coal sludge dumped into the Big sandy, but no one heard about it. why? Becuase the mining companies kept it as quiet as possible by greatly misinforming people on the damage done. Just think about all the other suldge impound mounts in this area. There just not built to last. Research the Marsh FOrk Elementary school to see just how much coal companies care about the youth and the community.
You never answered my question about mining and the envioronment, quit throwing blame onto other issues, and answer my question straight up. Major Highways, logging, and construction do cause harm, but that wasnt my question.

First off I completely disagree with you on this, a person that works in the mines is better informed about the daily operations and the environmental issues surrounding mining than someone who is not familiar with mining. How can you be informed about the mining process when you know absolutely nothing about mining? You can learn only so much from books and articles from the web, but there's no substitute for experience.

About your ties to mining, just because you have family working in mining does not make you a expert in mining, I have family members that are lawyers, but that doesn't make me a lawyer NO!

You keep saying that I'm bias toward the coal industry. How many times during this thread have I said "I for alternate energy and I have no problem with wind power" but for some reason you choose to ignore those comments.

You said you want mining to stop and I want it to continue, yes I do want it to continue atleast until we have something to replace it with, I know you keep saying we have alternate energy to replace coal, and you suggested wind power, but you even said that it will take at least 10 years with the assistance of underground mining to reach 13% of our energy needs. What happens to the other 37% of our energy needs, do you think this Nation can reduce it energy needs by 37% in the next 10 years. Our demand for energy is rising every year. Common sense tell me we need to find a replacement for coal, whatever it shall be before we outlaw the use of coal alltogether.

You ask why Mining companies don't test the creek water.
This is why I say a person with mining experience is better informed about the mining operations and environmental issues, We do test the creek waters, before a permit can be submitted to the state you have to have 2 samples per month for 6 months, upstream and down stream of the area to be permitted this is continued during the permitting process and also during the mining process as well.

You mentioned the Martin County spill and I agree that was a disaster, that shouldn't have ever happend, but the coal industry isn't the only industry that has had disasters what about Nuclar disaster at Three Mile Island or the Chemical leak at Bhophal India, what about the distillary in Kentucky that spilled 500,000 gallons of Wild Turkey into the Kentucky River or countless other disasters. It's unfortunate that disaster happen but hopefully we can learn from our mistakes and not let them happen again. I'm not sure where you were for the 2 months after the spill in Martin County, heck I was in Florida the day of the spill and I heard about it on the news.

When you say sludge impound mount are you referring to a Slurry Impoundment?
The Starter Phase (the first step of the Impoundment)of the slurry impoundment is built out of dirt and rock after the starter phase is completed Phase 1 starts and course refuse is added in 1 foot lifts and is compacted to the designed rate approved in the permit. Compaction can be obtained several different ways such as trucks driving back and forth across the area, loaders can be used or rollers like you see on road construction jobs are sometimes used. We had a independent Engineering company come out every other day and check to make sure we reached our compaction rate. The slurry (which is coal fines and water) are pumped into the Impoundment with the fines settleing near the embankment and the water working it's way to the back of the impundment where it becomes clear and is pumped back to the plant. As the Impoundment is nearing compleation (coal fines reaching their max. designed level) the excess water is pumped out and the remainder of the impoundment is graded so that no water can stand behind the embankment, after the impoundment is closed out it will be just a big hollow fill.

Talking about Marsh Fork Ele. I read the other day that Environmentalist were pushing the state for a new school but the majority of the teachers and parents did not want one, maybe there not as upset as you think.

By using the environmentalist diffinition of a stream 95% of their "streams" that are coverd with dirt and rock are actually intermitent or ephemeral "streams" those that flow only during a rain or snow event, personally I would say that these are dry branches or gullies. Since the environmentlist are able to call these "streams" before mining starts then one would have to consider all of the diversion ditches built during and after mining should also be called "streams" this would almost triple the length of steams prior to mining so if they say mining has destroyed 700 miles of streams, mining should be able to claim at least 1,500 miles of new stream chanels. What about the many acres of wetlands created during reclamation on our jobs alone we have appox. 50 acres of wetlands that are used by Ducks, Geese, Turkey and other fowl Deer, Bears, Foxes, Coyotes, Bobcats and other animals use these waters. With all of the laws, rules and guideline's that mining has to follow today I have to say that mining helps the environment, but that is my opinion and I know that you will disagree with me but what's new.

[Coach_Owens87]

First off I completely disagree with you on this, a person that works in the mines is better informed about the daily operations and the environmental issues surrounding mining than someone who is not familiar with mining. How can you be informed about the mining process when you know absolutely nothing about mining? You can learn only so much from books and articles from the web, but there's no substitute for experience.

About your ties to mining, just because you have family working in mining does not make you a expert in mining, I have family members that are lawyers, but that doesn't make me a lawyer NO!

You keep saying that I'm bias toward the coal industry. How many times during this thread have I said "I for alternate energy and I have no problem with wind power" but for some reason you choose to ignore those comments.

You said you want mining to stop and I want it to continue, yes I do want it to continue atleast until we have something to replace it with, I know you keep saying we have alternate energy to replace coal, and you suggested wind power, but you even said that it will take at least 10 years with the assistance of underground mining to reach 13% of our energy needs. What happens to the other 37% of our energy needs, do you think this Nation can reduce it energy needs by 37% in the next 10 years. Our demand for energy is rising every year. Common sense tell me we need to find a replacement for coal, whatever it shall be before we outlaw the use of coal alltogether.

You ask why Mining companies don't test the creek water.
This is why I say a person with mining experience is better informed about the mining operations and environmental issues, We do test the creek waters, before a permit can be submitted to the state you have to have 2 samples per month for 6 months, upstream and down stream of the area to be permitted this is continued during the permitting process and also during the mining process as well.

You mentioned the Martin County spill and I agree that was a disaster, that shouldn't have ever happend, but the coal industry isn't the only industry that has had disasters what about Nuclar disaster at Three Mile Island or the Chemical leak at Bhophal India, what about the distillary in Kentucky that spilled 500,000 gallons of Wild Turkey into the Kentucky River or countless other disasters. It's unfortunate that disaster happen but hopefully we can learn from our mistakes and not let them happen again. I'm not sure where you were for the 2 months after the spill in Martin County, heck I was in Florida the day of the spill and I heard about it on the news.

When you say sludge impound mount are you referring to a Slurry Impoundment?
The Starter Phase (the first step of the Impoundment)of the slurry impoundment is built out of dirt and rock after the starter phase is completed Phase 1 starts and course refuse is added in 1 foot lifts and is compacted to the designed rate approved in the permit. Compaction can be obtained several different ways such as trucks driving back and forth across the area, loaders can be used or rollers like you see on road construction jobs are sometimes used. We had a independent Engineering company come out every other day and check to make sure we reached our compaction rate. The slurry (which is coal fines and water) are pumped into the Impoundment with the fines settleing near the embankment and the water working it's way to the back of the impundment where it becomes clear and is pumped back to the plant. As the Impoundment is nearing compleation (coal fines reaching their max. designed level) the excess water is pumped out and the remainder of the impoundment is graded so that no water can stand behind the embankment, after the impoundment is closed out it will be just a big hollow fill.

Talking about Marsh Fork Ele. I read the other day that Environmentalist were pushing the state for a new school but the majority of the teachers and parents did not want one, maybe there not as upset as you think.

By using the environmentalist diffinition of a stream 95% of their "streams" that are coverd with dirt and rock are actually intermitent or ephemeral "streams" those that flow only during a rain or snow event, personally I would say that these are dry branches or gullies. Since the environmentlist are able to call these "streams" before mining starts then one would have to consider all of the diversion ditches built during and after mining should also be called "streams" this would almost triple the length of steams prior to mining so if they say mining has destroyed 700 miles of streams, mining should be able to claim at least 1,500 miles of new stream chanels. What about the many acres of wetlands created during reclamation on our jobs alone we have appox. 50 acres of wetlands that are used by Ducks, Geese, Turkey and other fowl Deer, Bears, Foxes, Coyotes, Bobcats and other animals use these waters. With all of the laws, rules and guideline's that mining has to follow today I have to say that mining helps the environment, but that is my opinion and I know that you will disagree with me but what's new.

Intermittent or not, it's still a stream by definition. Nature put those gullies and streams there for a reason, and when a company goes in, blast away all the top soil, mines 200-300 feet off the top of the mountain and then pushes the dirt into nearby valleys serious problems are bound to occur. Some mining companies are better than other at reclamation, but the majority do a poor job. The reason a ditch is not called a stream is because it's man made, streams have to occur naturally.

The problem with the Marsh Fork elementary school is that they are blasting near the sludge impoundment that has violated state regulations, it's currently leaking. They have made no attempts to fix the slurry impoundment. Im sure that environmentalist are making this a bigger issue than what it is, but the health of those kids is very important. What will the coal companies say if this impoundment breaks and kills those children.

To say the Mining helps the enviornment is crazy. It took nature millions of years to create those streams, valleys, and forest, but you think that man can come in blow all that away and things will be better? come on.

Im sure you are a great person, but I don't think we can debate this issue anymore, we have both given all the facts we have and our now just going on opinion. I just hope that mining can at least be controlled better untill we find a suitable energy replacement.