04-06-2007, 10:08 PM
I thoutht that this was an interesting comparison of homes since Gore is such a environmentalist.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp
DevilsWin Wrote:Fox Noise is poisioning America.Truth hurts huh?
98 Wrote:Truth hurts huh?
Beef Wrote:It's not just about his house. It goes into detail about his travel and CO2 emissions also. Watch it and learn something. Taking private jets fro event to event doesn't help the environment any when he could easily be on commercial airliners and emit 1/100 the amount of CO2 than he does with his private jets. Yeah, seems like he really cares about the environment. And it seems to be that attacking his house is not just something to get to him, it seems to be telling the truth. That he is emitting 100s of times more greenhouse gases than a normal house isn't something bad?
They wouldn't be attacking him if he wasn't such a huge hypocrite. If he didn't push for changes in emission levels, then his house would be left alone. Lead by example and no one will bother.
Coach_Owens87 Wrote:If it comes from fox I really doubt I would learn something. Go to this site and read this, it debunks everyting stated by fox news, you may not know what to think of this since it is REAL JOURNALISM, something Fox knows nothing about. Here is a small excerpt from the article
1) Goreâs family has taken numerous steps to reduce the carbon footprint of their private residence, including signing up for 100 percent green power through Green Power Switch, installing solar panels, and using compact fluorescent bulbs and other energy saving technology.
2) Gore has had a consistent position of purchasing carbon offsets to offset the familyâs carbon footprint â a concept the right-wing fails to understand. Goreâs office explains:
What Mr. Gore has asked is that every family calculate their carbon footprint and try to reduce it as much as possible. Once they have done so, he then advocates that they purchase offsets, as the Goreâs do, to bring their footprint down to zero.
Please stop buying into the bull**** fox feeds you. You told me to read about this issue and learn something, well I did. Know it's your turn, the truth hurts don't it.
Old School Wrote:Real Journalism - I think not!!!
What is the deal with Carbon Offsets? A person continues to live their normal lifestyle and feels guilty, so they pay a corporation (like the one Gore owns) anywhere from $5.50 to $12.00 per ton of CO2 so they can sleep at night. I calculated my carbon footprint and the results vary from 35 tons of CO2 to 60 Tons of CO2 depending on which site you use. One site said that they could plant 52 trees to offset my Carbon output, the coal company that I work for recently planted about 5,000 trees, shouldn't that count for something. Sorry but I just don't buy the idea of buying carbon offsets, if a person is so concerned with the enviroment they should make some personal sacrifices.
MSNBC, CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC and others sells just as much BULL as Fox News does!
Coach_Owens87 Wrote:Yes they lie, but no one can lie as much as fox, they are an embarrasment to journalism. They're just a right wing propaganda network, and if you cant see that, they've already got you brainwashed (or your'e just an idiot). I don't watch any news channels, If I want to know about a topic I research it, I don't need no political pundit telling me what to believe. The only thing you can tie Gore to is a zinc mine in Tennessee, but what does all of this prove? Nothing, Global Warming does exist, it's been proven, whats wrong with someone standing up and saying carbon emissions need to be controlled. But wait you work for a coal company, if we get away from fossil fuels you want have a job. so stop being biased and do some real research, quit listening to the shit they feed you. I tell you what, do some research and show me how mining helps the environment, or how mining companies help this region (They don't, I know all the dirty secrets of the mining companies) or how Al Gore is such an evil hypocrite, if you can give me a reliable source, no conservative web sites, or conservative nutjob viewpoints, I'll hush.Who proved global warming exists and when did they do it?
Now a coal company planting 5,000 trees is a joke, who is making up for the 14 million acres of forest, and over 1,000 miles of streams they have destroyed. All that planting does it get people off thier back for a while, just like the Elk introduction did a few years ago. But if you want to debate me on the affects of mining, I'll put you to shame, so for your own sake, dont even bother.
Armchair QB Wrote:Who proved global warming exists and when did they do it?
Old School Wrote:the coal company that I work for
Coach_Owens87 Wrote:They're just a right wing propaganda network, and if you cant see that, they've already got you brainwashed (or your'e just an idiot).
(They don't, I know all the dirty secrets of the mining companies).
Now a coal company planting 5,000 trees is a joke, who is making up for the 14 million acres of forest, and over 1,000 miles of streams they have destroyed.
But if you want to debate me on the affects of mining, I'll put you to shame, so for your own sake, dont even bother.
Coach_Owens87 Wrote:The IPCC (Intergovernmental panel on climate change) released a report last year that proved it is real. The IPCC is a agency from many countries consisting of scientist from around the world. Here is a link to read the report. http://www.ipcc.ch/
Even our energy hog, oil loving president agrees it exist. Just go hear to read it
http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-...-warm.html
Old School Wrote:But no sir your way of life is dependent on the Robber Barrons of the coal industry and their ability to continue to pollute the earth, groundwater and lifeforms on this planet.:Clap: :thumpsup:
Coal mining is the old way to provide energy. We are smarter and more advanced(at least some of us are) than those who came before us. We now have new ways of providing energy that are better.
Quit thinking about yourself for a change "republican" and think of the "greater good" for all of mankind and your childrens children. Posted by Devilswins
"WOW" I make one post about Gore and Carbon Offsets and two tree huggers come running out of the deep dark forest. One said I've either been Brainwashed by Fox News or I'm an Idiot. The other said that I work for a Robber Barron (What ever they are?) and that I'm not smarter than my Parents, Grandparents or even my Great Great Grandparents because I work in a Coal Mine today. "Devilwins" also said I was self centered and only thought of myself, he even called me a "Republician".... now I've been called a lot of names during my lifetime but ....now that I think about it "Republician" has a nice sound to it....Thanks Devilswin.
Here's a little background on myself I've been involved with the Coal Mining industry since 1980, first in Engineering then Underground Mine production, and then to production on Surface Mine, so I should know something about Coal Mining.
So OC87 if you know all the dirty little secerts of mining companies, you are either the most intelligent person on Earth or a legend in your own mind, I'm leaning toward the latter...just my opinion.
5,000 trees was my mistake it should have read 55,000 trees, we try to plant 600-800 trees per acre and allow for 75% survival rate.
(14 Million acres of forest and 1,000 miles of streams) A Myth put out by Enviromentalist
By the way OC87 and DW, What is you definition or a stream?
Robber Barons ???..... I'm still thinking about this one lol
Over half of the nations Electricity is generated by Coal. Now DW if we were to stop using coal to generate electricity today (which is what you both want). What are these new ways to provide electricity? If they're better I'm all for it, I know we will not be able to use coal forever, but we need to have another source ready to take over before you shut down coal mining.
Quit thinking of myself as a "Republician" NEVER!!
One other note the enviromentalist are trying to beat up on the coal mining industry, but do you ever see them protesting the construction of Interstate Highways, Shopping Centers (Wal-Mart/Lowes etc.) Sub-Divisions and the list can go on.
Old School Wrote:Robber Barons ???..... I'm still thinking about this one.
Coach_Owens87 Wrote:I'm just informed, not blinded to the truth like you.You accuse me of giving biased info from environmental groups but yet all you give is crap fed to you by the coal industry.
Yes over 50% of our power comes from coal, it's actually more around 60% but what does that prove, nothing, just that we are dependent on coal.
You really think coal companies give a crap about you or this region? not really. You miners work so hard for nothing.
The coal severance tax, enacted in 1972 to help this region hasn't changed since. It still sits at 5% per ton. But that 5% goes into a general state fund, the majority of it never goes back to the counties the coal came from. here is an example "Flecther left in the budget $3.4 million in projects funded with coal severance dollars for Butler County,a county that produced no coal last year" (http://withinreason.blogspot.com/2006/06...e-tax.html)
Your coal company may plant trees, good for them, but the majority do not, reclaimatioin is a joke. by the latest evidence nearly 80% of all mine sites do not meet federal requirements for reclamation under the SMCRA.
Coal wont last forever, and as DW stated we are a smarter generation than those before us. We have the ability to use cheaper more efficient energy sources, so why not use them.
DevilsWin Wrote:Apparently you don't know much about American History.
Ever heard of Tammany Hall? Rockafeller, Carnegie, or Vanderbilt? A little post Civil War Era history lesson could do you some good.
If we forget history we are destined to repeat it my friend.
Old School Wrote:CO87 Out of my three post on this thread tell me what info. came from Coal Companies.
My carbon footprint info came from 3 different Environmental Sites, the 55,000 trees that were just planted came from my job site, my idea of not buying into purchasing carbon offsets is my personal opinion and you agreed with me that over half of the nations electricity is produced from coal.
CO87 You ask me if I really think that Coal Companies give a crap about me and our region.
I can honestly say yes I do, now let me explain why, some of owners live in this area, some live in other states and some of the larger coal companies are owned by investors either way the Presidents or General Managers that manage the daily operations live in this area. Most Coal Companies give back to their communities, here's a few that I have been involved with: working with 10-15 fellow workers at local schools to paint, repair or install new playground equipment, landscaping, concrete work etc. I have worked for coal companies that were "Partners in Education" this included donating money for school trips, purchasing supplies, they have also taken small equipment to help with the athletic fields.
One company had a employee dress up every year as Santa Clause and they would buy gift to give to the kids. The Coal company paid for everything.
Here a story you will be interested in OC87. Annually since about 1996 our company has hired a contractor to take a back hoe and dump truck and assist the local Watershed Group clear debris from a 3-4 mile section of a large creek that runs through the community. Over the years they have picked up +100 tires, over 80 tons of plastic bottles, plastic bags, dirty diapers and other trash that had washed down stream over the years. Several Coal Companies have projects similar to these.
CO87 you brought up the Coal Severance Tax.
I agree with you, more of the tax monies should be sent to the producing counties, but remember the Coal Companies just pay the tax they have no input on how the money is distributed.
CO87 You say the land has been distroyed?
You may want to run down to the Property Valuation Administrator's office in any county and you will see that reclaimed mining property particularly the level land created by mining is assessed at a higher rate than hillside property.
Eastern Ky and Southern West Virginia have a huge need for flat land above the flood plain. I agree that we need to do a better job of utilizing the reclaimed properties we now have, one thing is that we need is better access to these properties. What manufacture would want to relocate to this area when they have to travel narrow back roads to and from their factory.
CO87 You say my company may plant trees others don't?
All Coal Companies have to have a reclamation plan and a tree planting plan in their mining permit and it has to be approved by the state. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to this law.
CO87 So You say reclaimation is a joke?
I'm not sure what jobs you been on (if any) but we have inspectors in our jobs daily (yes I mean 4 to 5 days a week) checking our mining and reclamation practices. Legally a company is only allowed to distrub a certain percentage of the permitted acreage, after that number is reached they have to have portions of the distrubed area reclaimed before they are allowed to distrub any more acreage. By the way where did you come up with 80% of all mine sites not meeting Federal Requirements come from. Did you pull that number out of your hat also.
CO87 Cheapier and more efficient energy sources?
As I said before I have no problem with alternative energy, but the enviromentalist are wanting to shut mining down today. Tell me if we stop burning coal today what will take it's place tomorrow. As of today solar and wind energy cannot produce 50% of the Nations electricity. My suggestion is to develop another source of energy that can replace coal before kicking it into the weeds.
Beef Wrote:I don't know where to really jump in here because you guys seem to be far enough down each others throats to take care of this matter. But I must admit that you are doing a good job and it has been fun to read. I have way too much work over the next week and a half to throw all my thought into this but I will let you know some of the things that are on my mind.
Little information about myself. I am a Republican and my family history is in the coal industry (not currently). Bias, probably, but I wouldn't be where I am today without it so I will not badmouth it.
I'll go ahead and agree that the coal tax needs to come back to the areas that mine the coal. We (EKY) were lucky with Patton in office, because he tried his hardest to do just that. When you get people in office that do not understand the region. they will do what they want with the money. Sad, but true.
Buying carbon offsets is a JOKE. If Gore was so keen on lowering greenhouse gases, why doesn't he just lower his emissions instead of buying an "offset". Heck, why doesn't he do both. Money is not a problem for him, he could 'Go Green' in his life and still purchase offsets. Maybe it is too late for him to change his house, wait, no, he just finished it. He was building it while Inconvenient Truth was being filmed. If he had such a care for the environment then why didn't he make the needed adjustments before he started on the house? So I do not see how you can not call him a hypocrite.
I agree with Old School. Sure the land has changed, but it has increased in value for the better. No industry is going to want to come in and buy a piece of hillside only to have to pay for it to be leveled so that they can build. Then you bring up the point about being poor regions. This is because all that we have is coal. Why not more? I blame it on transportation. Companies that require a lot of freight do not want to move into our region due to the lack of roads and/or suitable airports. This goes back to the Coal Tax though and the need for the government to help the region with the money that it deserves.
So we are destroying our land to feed the power needs of the rest of the country.
What do you really want us to do? This is the only source of major income for the region. If we stopped mining coal for the rest of the country and only for our states (KY, VA, WVA), I would be willing to guess that 75% of mines would have to shut down cause the region to become even more impoverished. Not to mention the chaos that it would cause around the country. As OS said, what would replace coal as the energy source tomorrow if we stopped producing today? Talk about rolling blackouts. It would cause almost a national blackout. Think of the troubles that would start: Stocks crash, people panic, and/or depression.
Old School Wrote:[quote=Coach_Owens87][quote=Armchair QB]:Clap: :thumpsup:[/QUOT
I'm just informed, not blinded to the truth like you.You accuse me of giving biased info from environmental groups but yet all you give is crap fed to you by the coal industry.
by the latest evidence nearly 80% of all mine sites do not meet federal requirements for reclamation under the SMCRA.
Surface mining (which includes MTR mining), accounts for only 1.2% of jobs in WV and brings in just 2.6% of the stateâs total revenues. The counties where surface mining predominates are some of the still poorest counties in the country. The same is true for Ky. The poorest counties are those with high coal production. 1 percent of jobs, just how is 1% of out total jobs supposed to be such a huge economic impact?
CO87 you ask how 1% (I'm looking into that number) of our total jobs can have a big economic impact. The following information is provided by the Kentucky office of Energy
Kentucky employed 15,012 Miners and they earned over 759 Million dollars in wages in 2004.
In 2004 Coal companies paid over 183 Million in Severance Taxes.
Created econmic activity throughout Ky totaling 9 Billion dollars.
61,158 jobs were created throughout Ky to support the Coal industry.
In 2004 Underground mining produced 73.5 million tons of coal and Surface mining produced 45.5 Million tons of coal (OC87 your Mr. Reece stated in his report that 70% of the coal mined in Kentucky came form Surface mines including Mountain Top Removal and 30% from Underground Mining) according to my math Surface mines in Kentucky produced 38 % of the coal mined in Kentucky.
In 1984 there were 1,137 Surface Mines in the State of Kentucky, in 2004 there were 196 Surface mines operating in the State of Kentucky.
In 1984 there were 926 Underground Mines in the State of Kentucky, in 2004 there were 223 Underground Mines in the State of Kentucky.
Remember these numbers came from the State of Kentucky.
Here's some numbers provided from West Virginia Office of Miners Health Safety and Training (WVOMHST) www.wvminesafety.org
Taxes paid by the coal industry and by utility companies that make electricity using coal accounted for two-thirds of the business taxes paid in W. Va.
The coal industry pays approximately 70 million dollars in property taxes annually in W. Va..
Coal severance taxes add approximately 214 million dollars to W. Va. economy.
The coal industry payroll is nearly 2 Billion dollars annually in W. Va.
Coal is responsible for more than 3.5 Billion annually in the gross state product in W. Va.
The coal industry employed about 20,000 people that earned an average of $50,000 per year, an additional 80,000 jobs were created
In West Virginia underground mines produced 98 million tons (62%)in 2005, and surface mines produced 60 million tons (38%).
Now I'm not an accountant, but you have to admit those numbers would have to have a huge impact a state's economy.
OC87 Federal Requirements for Reclamation
I did find out some more info the reclamation process in W. Va. a coal company can distrub up to 50% of their permited acreage or 200 acres whichever is less. Reclamation has to be started when reaching either 50% or 200 acres.
Coach_Owens87 Wrote:[quote=Coach_Owens87]
If you can give me the total income for the state. Then those numbers may mean something. I want debate you on the fact that Coal Companies make a lot of money they do. But just where is that money going. It's not helping Appalachia.
That reclamation law mentioned nothing about the requirements, or standards for reclamation. No wonder coal companies do such horrible jobs. Well that and reclamation cost money, lots of it. Most companies don't want to pay it. Thats why they pay a bond before mining that is supposed to cover reclamation if the state must step in. A lot of bigger companies create subsidiaries that shut down after one mining job. This way they cant be punished for breaking the law. You cant punish someone or something that doesn't exist.
Old School Wrote:[quote=Coach_Owens87]
I don't care what the total income is, 9 Billion Dollars has a huge economic impact!! Surely you're not that blinded to realize that. I'll tell you again Coal companies have no input on where or how the tax money is spent, and they can't tell their employees how to spend their hard earned money. You need to contact Frankfort if you have a problem with the way they spend the Tax dollars.
Each State has sightly different law concerning reclamation, first of all each company has to obey all state and federal laws (you can contact the West Virginia DEP or the Kentucky Department of Mines and Mineral to obtain information on each State) yes that means that you woiuld have to go to another site other than that Environmental Site you only visit now.
You are correct each company has to post a bond for their mining permit, apparently you're not familiar with the "Applicant Violator System" this is how it works, for each mining permit application the owners and officers of every company must be listed with their SS#. Once a Coal company goes into bond forfeiture a couple of things happen first they lose all off the bond money and secondly the names of the owners and officers are placed on the Applicant Violator List (a black list of sorts). These people can never apply for another coal mining permit anywhere in the United States even if they work for another Coal Company. Personaly I think this is punishment and it is deserved!
CO87 you keep talking about only using 1% of the existing land.
The source for the following information comes from the Environmenttal and Public Protection Cabinet
Mining is only a temporary land use, Mountaintop mining has created several sites for new Schools, Hospitals, Shopping Centers, Parks, Golf Courses, Housing, Airports, Industry, agriculture and timber in Kentucky
Here's a few of the Post-Mining land use and the County
1) Big Sandy Region Airport - Martin
2) Hatcher Field Airport - Pike
3) Carroll Field Airport - Breathitt
4) Ford Airport - Perry
5) Ohio County Airport - Ohio
6) Federal Correctional Institute - Clay, Martin
7) East Kentucky Correctional Complex - Morgan
8) Medium Security Prison - Muhlenberg, Knott
9) Otter Creek Correctional Center - Floyd
10) Juvenile Boot Camp - Breathitt
11) Earle C. Clements Job Corps Center - Muhlenberg
12) Army National Guard Training Center - Muhlenberg
13) U.S. Postal Service - Laurel
14) County Park - Ohio
15) Madisonville South By-Pass - Hopkins
16) Solid Waste Landfills - Daviess, Greenup, Ohio, Hopkins, Perry and Lee
17) Hazard Armory - Perry
18) Jail and State Police Barracks - Perry
19) Veterans Nursing Home - Perry
and the list goes on with another 75 Industrial or Commercial operations, and also includes 16 Farms or Agricultural Projects. Fish and wildlife projects include
20) Duck Refuge Areas - Ohio, Perry, Breathitt, Knott, Martin, Muhlenberg
21) Catfish Farming - McLean
22) Wildlife Management Area - Muhlenberg, Ohio, Perry
23) Wetland Development - Eastern Kentucky
CO87 I have a question for you, it's apparent that you've never worked in the Mining Industry, because the only information you can come up with is what the Environmentalist feed you, but have you ever visited a Active Surface or Undergound Mine Site?
In most of your post you keep saying that you are informed (post #19) and if you want to know about a topic you research it (post #12). When you research topic shouldn't you research all aspects of the topic? You keep telling me to look at Reece's web site and Appvoices and I have. I also know Reece is Anti-Coal and will never make a positive comment about Coal, this may suprise you a little but I often visit OHVEC's web site usually once or twice a week just to see what their up to.
I think you owe it to yourself to look at both sides of this topic and then form your own opinion.
CO87 did you know that only 7% of Eastern Kentucky is suitable for Surface Mining?