[Pulp Fiction]

Now let's look at Non-Classed Team Sporting Activities, using the Football Class system.

Archery
2013 - Trigg County (3A)
2014 - Trigg County (3A)
2015 - Trigg County (3A)
2016 - Madison Central (6A)
2017 - Madison Central (6A)

Bass Fishing
2013 - Calloway County (4A)
2014 - Muhlenberg County (6A)
2015 - Muhlenberg County (6A)
2016 - Lawrence County (3A)
2017 - Muhlenberg County (6A)

Boys Bowling
2012 - Scott County (6A)
2013 - Simon Kenton (6A)
2014 - Scott County (6A)
2015 - Henry Clay (6A)
2016 - Taylor County (4A)
2017 - Boyle County (3A)

Girls Bowling
2012 - PRP (6A)
2013 - Taylor County (4A)
2014 - PRP (6A)
2015 - PRP (6A)
2016 - Taylor County (4A)
2017 - Central Hardin (6A)


Competitive Cheer and Dance broken down in to Divisions and for the purpose of this list, that will count at being Classed.

[Pulp Fiction]

For comparison against the '16/'17 school year.


The 2015/2016 school year, Non-Classed state champions.

Girls Golf
Madison Central (6A)

Boys Golf
St. Xavier (6A)

Volleyball
Assumption (No football class)

Boys Soccer
Covington Catholic (5A)

Girls Soccer
Sacred Heart (No football class)

Boys Swimming
St. Xavier (6A)

Girls Swimming
Sacred Heart (No football class)

Wrestling
Union County (3A)

Boys Basketball
PL Dunbar (6A)

Girls Basketball
Butler (6A)

Softball
Scott County (6A)

Boys Tennis
St. Xavier (6A)

Girls Tennis
McCracken County (6A)

Baseball
St. X (6A)

Archery
Madison Central (6A)

Bass Fishing
Lawrence County (3A)

Boys Bowling
Taylor County (4A)

Girls Bowling
Taylor County (4A)


Class Breakdown
6A: 10
5A: 1
4A: 2
3A: 2
2A: 0
1A: 0
No Football Class: 3

Public: 10 (6 6A; 2 4A; 2 3A)
Private: 8 (4 6A; 1 5A; 3 No football class)

[Pulp Fiction]

https://khsaa.org/reports/enrollments/20...enroll.pdf

Look at these enrollment numbers.


Scott County has the largest enrollment in the state @ 2,470 students.
Jenkins is listed at #33 out 279 member schools with 150 students.


I don't know what the largest enrollment was in 1917, but nobody will convince me the original KHSAA leadership could have envisioned such a gap like we have today. A school with 150 students competing for the same state title as a school with 2,470 students. Like I've said earlier, 100 years ago... 'One State, One Champion' was the best way to crown a state champion. Times have changed.

[TheHotSnakes]

I once saw this analogy used, and I thought it was fitting.

If one out of every 125 students is considered a "good athlete" then schools with 200 total kids can hope for 1 or 2. Schools with 1500, can hope for 11 or 12. Yet, we are going to pit those schools against each other?

This isn't about giving everyone a trophy. It's about a balanced system giving the best opportunities. There are some places that can't compete with bigger schools.

If we had Caverna and Trinity in the same class in football, would we just say "should have tried harder"? Of course not. Well, at least a smart person wouldn't.

The whole "get better" excuse is lazy and useless. Period. It's an attempt to over simplify extremely complex matters, by people who don't understand greater dynamics at play.


Look at boxing. A historically great lightweight isn't going to stand a chance against an average-at-best heavyweight. Would you tell then to get better? Or admit that there's no reason for them to be competing against each other?



6 classes isn't needed, but, something is. Maybe 2 or 3. But, I can promise you'd get a ton of great post season games with that, in every sport.

[Pulp Fiction]

I once saw this analogy used, and I thought it was fitting.

If one out of every 125 students is considered a "good athlete" then schools with 200 total kids can hope for 1 or 2. Schools with 1500, can hope for 11 or 12. Yet, we are going to pit those schools against each other?

This isn't about giving everyone a trophy. It's about a balanced system giving the best opportunities. There are some places that can't compete with bigger schools.

If we had Caverna and Trinity in the same class in football, would we just say "should have tried harder"? Of course not. Well, at least a smart person wouldn't.

The whole "get better" excuse is lazy and useless. Period. It's an attempt to over simplify extremely complex matters, by people who don't understand greater dynamics at play.


Look at boxing. A historically great lightweight isn't going to stand a chance against an average-at-best heavyweight. Would you tell then to get better? Or admit that there's no reason for them to be competing against each other?



6 classes isn't needed, but, something is. Maybe 2 or 3. But, I can promise you'd get a ton of great post season games with that, in every sport.

Excellent post!!! :Thumbs:


This is the way I see any realistic chance of some type of Class being implemented with the KHSAA.
- The KHSAA will send some type of survey to the member schools asking if they think all offered or selected sports/activities should be Classed.
- If they reply No, then that's the end of the survey.
- If they reply Yes, the next questions will be "Should all sports/activities be Classed" or "List the sports/activities you think should be Classed."
- Giving member schools a chance to vote on what sports/activities they feel needs to be classed would be the best way to get this off the ground.

I see the KHSAA wanting to keep the Boys & Girls Sweet 16 as it is, but, IMO, these sports might be up for some type of Classification discussion.
- Boys & Girls Soccer
- Boys & Girls Golf
- Boys & Girls Swimming
- Boys & Girls Tennis
- Boys & Girls Bowling
- Baseball
- Softball
- Volleyball


Wrestling, Boys & Girls Basketball, Bass Fishing and Boys & Girls Archery are the sports/activities, IMO, that won't be voted to be Classed.


1A, 2A, 3A - Small School
4A, 5A, 6A - Large School

^^^^
This Classification breakdown would be the best and most logical. Two classes would be enough to make the 6A teams earn it and give the 1A schools a true fighting chance. I think a two class system would end the Public/Private discussion. And for the all Girl schools without a football class, they would be Classed based on their enrollment with current football Class numbers.
This would still allow the Small school and Large school state champion play each other for some type of Overall State Champion, but still award a sanctioned KHSAA Small School & Large School state champion. I would rather see a statewide Class system rather than the state broken up in to Sectionals like some states do.

[TheHotSnakes]

The only things that shouldn't have a class are: Wrestling, bass fishing (why is this even a "sport"?), bowling, archery, and probably golf and swimming.

I wouldn't class some of those simply because I don't think there are enough schools participating in them to be able to support it. Like swimming and fishing, I don't think enough schools participate to support even a 2 class system.

I fully believe the one sport that needs classifications in any capacity will be the one that will be hardest to get, and that's basketball.

[Pulp Fiction]

Every state classes football, but for comparison, here are how our border states class basketball.
I'm using basketball as an example because more schools offer basketball rather than football.
All of the information came from their state association website.


Tennessee has two divisions, then the divisions are broken down by class.
Division 1 are the public schools, division 2 are the private schools.
Div. 1 has three classes (1A, 2A & 3A).
Div. 2 has two classes (1A & 2A).

West Virginia has three classes.
1A, 2A & 3A.

Virginia has six classes.
1A, 2A, 3A, 4A, 5A & 6A

Ohio has four divisions.
Div. 1, Div. 2, Div. 3 & Div. 4

Illinois has four classes.
1A, 2A, 3A & 4A.

Indiana has four classes.
1A, 2A, 3A, & 4A.

Missouri has five classes.
Class 1, Class 2, Class 3, Class 4 & Class 5.






The overall talent level in Kentucky high school basketball isn't what is was even just a few years ago. Prep schools and Academy's are taking the top level talent with the hope of receiving a better scholarship offer from a D1 program.
Even if a team like Ballard, Bowling Green or Covington Catholic looses a superstar, they would still blow a team like Jenkins, Phelps or Harlan off the floor before the first period was over. Nobody will ever convince me that Ballard and Phelps should EVER play for the same state championship.

Two classes would be perfect.
1A, 2A & 3A: Small school.
4A, 5A & 6A: Large school.

[Eagle84]

The only things that shouldn't have a class are: Wrestling, bass fishing (why is this even a "sport"?), bowling, archery, and probably golf and swimming.

I wouldn't class some of those simply because I don't think there are enough schools participating in them to be able to support it. Like swimming and fishing, I don't think enough schools participate to support even a 2 class system.

I fully believe the one sport that needs classifications in any capacity will be the one that will be hardest to get, and that's basketball.

Wrestling is in need of a class system. If they was a small school and big school class you would see many more schools field teams.

[Pulp Fiction]

Wrestling is in need of a class system. If they was a small school and big school class you would see many more schools field teams.

Classing the weights, but awarding only one team state title would be great.

Award a Small School and a Large School individual champion.
Award only one team state champion, no matter the class.

[TheHotSnakes]

Wrestling is in need of a class system. If they was a small school and big school class you would see many more schools field teams.

I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that it already has weight classes, and didn't need it any further.

I don't think a lot of schools have teams simply because this isn't a state where that's a common sport. I could be wrong completely.

I wouldn't have a single problem if they split it in 2 classes, though.

[Pulp Fiction]

I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that it already has weight classes, and didn't need it any further.

I don't think a lot of schools have teams simply because this isn't a state where that's a common sport. I could be wrong completely.

I wouldn't have a single problem if they split it in 2 classes, though.

Myself and Eagle84 know high school wrestling as well as anybody on this site. The popularity of MMA has boosted participation numbers of wrestling.

The Coaches Association hosts the State Duals every year, they have a Small school & Large school state championship. Then the champions will wrestle for the fun of it.

[Pulp Fiction]

Using the research I did for post #1, let's look at the State Championships of St. Xavier Tigers. A 6A, private school from Louisville and probably has the most overall accomplished athletics department in our Commonwealth. Since the adoption of the six class system (the '07/'08 school year), St. X has won multiple state titles each year. I have listed Classed and Non-Classed sports for reference. The years are listed as school years. The 2007 Boys Soccer season was played in the same school year as the 2008 Boys Tennis season. Fall sports and Spring sports do not cross the year barrier. Only winter sports do and those sports finish in the latter year.


2007/2008
Boys Soccer
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis

2008/2009
Boys Golf
Boys Soccer
Boys Swimming

2009/2010
3A Cross Country
6A Football
Boys Golf
Boys Soccer
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis

2010/2011
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis

2011/2012
3A Cross Country
Boys Soccer
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis

2012/2013
3A Cross Country
Boys Soccer
Boys Swimming
Wrestling
Boys Tennis

2013/2014
3A Cross Country
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis
Baseball

2014/2015
Boys Golf
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis

2015/2016
3A Cross Country
Boys Golf
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis
Baseball

2016/2017
3A Cross Country
Boys Golf
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis



Other than Trinity, no other school can compare with these numbers recently. Not even other 6A schools, how does the KHSAA expect small schools to compete against this type of athletic program. Not just in the less populated areas of the state, but other teams in Region 7. Nobody will ever convince me the KHSAA shouldn't class all of their sports. My reply to anybody saying "keep it the way we've always had it" is this.... Why does the NCAA have Three divisions? If college athletics use a class system and every state that borders Kentucky uses a class system, then the KHSAA has no excuse. Maybe not all at once, but select five or six sports to start with and see how it goes. What we have now isn't working, it's only doing it's job because we are used to it.

[TheHotSnakes]

It's only doing the job not only because we are familiar with it, it's doing the job because people insist that it is. People have beat their chest long enough about non classes sports that people have come to believe it.

[Single Wing 77]

I honestly think that telling a small rural school that "working harder" it all it takes to compete with Trinity and x is that same thing as telling a fish that "working harder" will allow it to climb a tree as well as a money. Face it folks. Phelps and Trinity may both play on a baseball diamond, but they don't play the same sport. They're not built the same, and the formula for success isn't the same. I'm not gonna say it's unfair, but it sure isnt even.

[TheHotSnakes]

I honestly think that telling a small rural school that "working harder" it all it takes to compete with Trinity and x is that same thing as telling a fish that "working harder" will allow it to climb a tree as well as a money. Face it folks. Phelps and Trinity may both play on a baseball diamond, but they don't play the same sport. They're not built the same, and the formula for success isn't the same. I'm not gonna say it's unfair, but it sure isnt even.

So, what's the difference between football and the rest? Why are we seemingly okay with Phelps and Trinity playing in baseball and basketball, but suddenly well aware of their differences when it comes to football?

I'm fairly confident that the results would be pretty much the same if they played in any of those 3 sports.

[Pulp Fiction]

I honestly think that telling a small rural school that "working harder" it all it takes to compete with Trinity and x is that same thing as telling a fish that "working harder" will allow it to climb a tree as well as a money. Face it folks. Phelps and Trinity may both play on a baseball diamond, but they don't play the same sport. They're not built the same, and the formula for success isn't the same. I'm not gonna say it's unfair, but it sure isnt even.

So, what's the difference between football and the rest? Why are we seemingly okay with Phelps and Trinity playing in baseball and basketball, but suddenly well aware of their differences when it comes to football?

I'm fairly confident that the results would be pretty much the same if they played in any of those 3 sports.

The KHSAA and the BOC would have us to believe that Football, Cross Country and Track & Field being classed makes it fair based on enrollment. While everybody has an equal shot in the non-classed sports no matter their enrollment.


Teams are not gonna leave the KHSAA, we aren't going to see another high school athletics sanctioning body start-up and we will more than likely have to deal with non-classed sports until enough people make noise about it.


How many more times do we need to see a 5A or 6A team from a big city win multiple titles each year before some people come around on this issue. When the Boys Sweet 16 (the KHSAA's baby) has seen a decline in attendance numbers as well as the state baseball meet, if money doesn't talk, then I don't know what does.

[Single Wing 77]

So, what's the difference between football and the rest? Why are we seemingly okay with Phelps and Trinity playing in baseball and basketball, but suddenly well aware of their differences when it comes to football?

I'm fairly confident that the results would be pretty much the same if they played in any of those 3 sports.

I'm thinking you may have misinterpreted my post, or I may not have been clear enough. I'm saying that all sports need to be classed. Two classes or three classes at the most.

All schools play on the same sized field/court and play by the same rules which makes it fair. However it is far from even.

[TheHotSnakes]

I'm thinking you may have misinterpreted my post, or I may not have been clear enough. I'm saying that all sports need to be classed. Two classes or three classes at the most.

All schools play on the same sized field/court and play by the same rules which makes it fair. However it is far from even.

I had no confusion. And I fully agree with your points and comparisons. I was simply asking why football is our major exception? We are in agreement on the needing of classes in other sports, but why do people view football differently? Is it because football is vastly more physical?

Hypothetical:

Phelps plays Bowling Green in football, people are horrified at the monster who would have scheduled that game.

Phelps plays Bowling Green in basketball, pretty much the same score line as football, but no one seems as bothered by the outcome. Suddenly, it just comes down to the "little guy" needing to be morr committed or something like that.

[Do-double-gg]

Why because they're better than public schools? Get better at your sport.

Dude I know your not this naive.......or I hope not. Honestly saying go get better is silly and a direct slap in the face of every kid, coach and program out there. That is a simple minded answers to a very complex problem. These guys have a legitimate gripe and you know it. I'm going to explain this like a five year old can understand so I hope this helps. This has nothing to do with David against Goliath, city against country or bla, bla, bla. This is all about the size of talent pool's teams have to draw from. Just for shit's and giggles let's say you could clone a full coaching staff from head coach on down and not just looks but give em all the same memories, experience, coaching styles and everything. Now take both and place one in my home county Lawrence County and place the other identical staff in let's say Jefferson County. Now let's just throw out the whole private verses public stuff and make both public schools. Both teams can only use players from within their county. Now on what planet could the team from Lawrence County ever be able to compete with the talent pool the Jefferson County team has to draw from year in and year out. Every year the Jefferson team would have more size, speed and athleticism. That Jefferson team would beat the Lawrence team nine times out of 10 or 99 out of a hundred if not a hundred not with better coaching or harder work but with numbers. The population of Louisa and Lawrence Co isn't a drop in the bucket to the population of Jeferson Co and Louisville. Now throw back in the mix that the Jefferson team is a private school and has all the luxuries and advantages of a private school and it's not even remotely close to being fair. Go get better won't fix anything and frankly I'm not convinced that any of the coaches and programs out west and north are coached or ran any better then quite a few right here in the mountain area like Belfry, Johnson Central, Pikeville, Hazard, Corbin, Pulaski and Bell Co just to name a few. In fact I would love to see what some of those coaches could pull off if they had bigger and better talent to choose from. Bottom line is when all these rules and regulations were made it was believed that every team in the state had the same even and fair shot at a championship and at that particular time that was probably true, but only a complete idiot couldn't see that this has changed drastically. So are we supposed to lie to the kids who work their tails off and dream of going state that they have a good chance when we know it's not true. Or do we tell them the hard truth that even though they worked and played just as hard that they have a better chance of being struck by lightning all because someone said just go get better and refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem. At the end of the day when all is said and done this system is unbalanced and slanted in certain teams favor before the season ever even starts, championships are supposed to be decided on the field of play and not in the offices of some ignorant and naive KHSAA officials and that is unfair to the kids and I could care less what dumb, lazy and naive adults think. And to end this I want to say that I think your view on this is particularly rich seeing as how I specifically remember you saying on more then one occasion that winning in highschool football has less to do with X's and 0's and more to do with Jimmy's and Joe's. Your convenient views seem to be contradicting one another don't ya think lol.

[TheHotSnakes]

Here's a fun exercise in the pointlessness of the "just be better" or "work harder" argument.

Take every player from Fulton City and Fulton County over the last 5 years, from any sport. Put them on a team. Let them have 2 months to practice.

Then, take the backups and JV team from Trinity. Don't let them practice or anything like that.

Put them on a neutral field.


Who wins? Everyone picks T. Every one. Every time. Those Fulton kids worked their butts off while the other team just showed up. They did everything they could.

This game wouldn't even be close. And, that's why simply telling a team to worker harder and get better is lazy, pointless and insulting.

[Pulp Fiction]

Using the research I did for post #1, let's look at the State Championships of St. Xavier Tigers. A 6A, private school from Louisville and probably has the most overall accomplished athletics department in our Commonwealth. Since the adoption of the six class system (the '07/'08 school year), St. X has won multiple state titles each year. I have listed Classed and Non-Classed sports for reference. The years are listed as school years. The 2007 Boys Soccer season was played in the same school year as the 2008 Boys Tennis season. Fall sports and Spring sports do not cross the year barrier. Only winter sports do and those sports finish in the latter year.


2007/2008
Boys Soccer
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis

2008/2009
Boys Golf
Boys Soccer
Boys Swimming

2009/2010
3A Cross Country
6A Football
Boys Golf
Boys Soccer
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis

2010/2011
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis

2011/2012
3A Cross Country
Boys Soccer
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis

2012/2013
3A Cross Country
Boys Soccer
Boys Swimming
Wrestling
Boys Tennis

2013/2014
3A Cross Country
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis
Baseball

2014/2015
Boys Golf
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis

2015/2016
3A Cross Country
Boys Golf
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis
Baseball

2016/2017
3A Cross Country
Boys Golf
Boys Swimming
Boys Tennis



Other than Trinity, no other school can compare with these numbers recently. Not even other 6A schools, how does the KHSAA expect small schools to compete against this type of athletic program. Not just in the less populated areas of the state, but other teams in Region 7. Nobody will ever convince me the KHSAA shouldn't class all of their sports. My reply to anybody saying "keep it the way we've always had it" is this.... Why does the NCAA have Three divisions? If college athletics use a class system and every state that borders Kentucky uses a class system, then the KHSAA has no excuse. Maybe not all at once, but select five or six sports to start with and see how it goes. What we have now isn't working, it's only doing it's job because we are used to it.

St. Xavier has been a member of the KHSAA since 1920. According to the KHSAA website, here are St. X's Classed and Non-Classed team state championships. Bolded means they have the most team titles in the state, in that sport.


Cross Country: 22 :1:
(Next closest is Trinity with 18)
17 in Class 3A since 1971, When the three class system was adopted in CC.

Football: 12
3 in Class 3A; 8 in Class 4A; 1 in Class 6A
(Trinity leads with 24)

Golf: 21 :1:
(Next closest is Male with 7)

Soccer: 12 :1:
(Next closest is Ballard with 9)

Wrestling: 3
(Woodford County leads 13)

Basketball: 4
(Henry Clay & Lafayette tied with 6)

Swimming & Diving: 53 :1:
Consecutive since 1989 through 2017.
(Next closest is Highlands with 12)

Baseball: 7 :1:
(Next closest is Owensboro & DuPont Manual with 6)

Tennis: 26 :1:
(Next closest is Trinity with 5)

Track & Field: 10
3 Non-classed; 1 tie; 6 in Class 3A.
(Male leads with 32. 17 in Class 3A, 15 non-classed)


- St. X leads six of the ten boys sports with the most state championships. St. X has not won any state titles in the sport activities which started in 2012 (Bowling, Bass Fishing, Archery).
- Of the four (2 Classed, 2 Non-Classed) sports they don't lead in, a 5A or 6A school does.
- Of the six (5 Non-Classed, 1 Classed) sports they do lead in, the next closest teams are 5A or 6A.

[Pulp Fiction]

Here are the KHSAA Girls sports, Classed & Non-Classed.
The list is of the most team state titles per sport or class.
I have listed their Football class or if they are a Private school.


Cross Country
Class 1A: St. Henry District; 19 - Most of all classes. Private
Class 2A: Ft. Thomas Highlands; 10 (5A)
Class 3A: Pulaski County (5A) & Sacred Heart; 7 Private

Golf
Sacred Heart: 10 Private
(Next closest is Glasgow with 5)

Soccer
South Oldham: 7 (5A)

Field Hockey (Only been offered for past three seasons)
Assumption: 2 Private
Sacred Heart: 1 Private

Volleyball No public school has EVER won a state title in this sport.
Assumption: 19 Private
(Next closest is Notre Dame with 8)

Swimming & Diving
Sacred Heart: 28 Private
(Next closest is Notre Dame with 9)

Basketball
Ashland Blazer (4A) & Butler (6A) are tied with 5
* Laurel County also has 5, but are no longer a member of the KHSAA.

Softball
Owensboro Catholic: 5 Private
(Next closest is Greenwood with 3)

Tennis
Sacred Heart: 9 Private
(Next closest is Lexington Christian with 3)
* Lone Oak had 11, but they are no longer a member of the KHSAA.

Track & Field
Class 1A: St. Henry District; 10 Private
Class 2A: Paducah Tilghman; 14 - Most of all classes (3A)
Class 3A: Ballard; 9 (6A)



Of the 14 offered Girls sports...
9 are led by Private schools.
1 is led by a 6A school.
3 are led by a 5A school.
1 is led by a 4A school.
1 is led by a 3A school.

[Single Wing 77]

I had no confusion. And I fully agree with your points and comparisons. I was simply asking why football is our major exception? We are in agreement on the needing of classes in other sports, but why do people view football differently? Is it because football is vastly more physical?

Hypothetical:

Phelps plays Bowling Green in football, people are horrified at the monster who would have scheduled that game.

Phelps plays Bowling Green in basketball, pretty much the same score line as football, but no one seems as bothered by the outcome. Suddenly, it just comes down to the "little guy" needing to be morr committed or something like that.

I think it's the combination o a couple things. Football is a full contact, team sport and has no roster limits. Wrestling is a full contact sport but it isn't a team sport. You only have to focus on one guy at a time. No worries about double teams or peel back blocks. All of the other sanctioned team sports are considered non contact. I don't agree with it at all, but I think this is the primary reason that it is deemed okay to class football and okay to leave every other sport as is. The outlier is track, track is classed as it should be. I also think of every sport we're classed it would help with the "transfer" problem in the 13th and 14th regions. A kid would probably be more likely to stay at his home school if he felt he actually had a chance to compete for a championship there.

[Real Badman]

Dude I know your not this naive.......or I hope not. Honestly saying go get better is silly and a direct slap in the face of every kid, coach and program out there. That is a simple minded answers to a very complex problem. These guys have a legitimate gripe and you know it. I'm going to explain this like a five year old can understand so I hope this helps. This has nothing to do with David against Goliath, city against country or bla, bla, bla. This is all about the size of talent pool's teams have to draw from. Just for shit's and giggles let's say you could clone a full coaching staff from head coach on down and not just looks but give em all the same memories, experience, coaching styles and everything. Now take both and place one in my home county Lawrence County and place the other identical staff in let's say Jefferson County. Now let's just throw out the whole private verses public stuff and make both public schools. Both teams can only use players from within their county. Now on what planet could the team from Lawrence County ever be able to compete with the talent pool the Jefferson County team has to draw from year in and year out. Every year the Jefferson team would have more size, speed and athleticism. That Jefferson team would beat the Lawrence team nine times out of 10 or 99 out of a hundred if not a hundred not with better coaching or harder work but with numbers. The population of Louisa and Lawrence Co isn't a drop in the bucket to the population of Jeferson Co and Louisville. Now throw back in the mix that the Jefferson team is a private school and has all the luxuries and advantages of a private school and it's not even remotely close to being fair. Go get better won't fix anything and frankly I'm not convinced that any of the coaches and programs out west and north are coached or ran any better then quite a few right here in the mountain area like Belfry, Johnson Central, Pikeville, Hazard, Corbin, Pulaski and Bell Co just to name a few. In fact I would love to see what some of those coaches could pull off if they had bigger and better talent to choose from. Bottom line is when all these rules and regulations were made it was believed that every team in the state had the same even and fair shot at a championship and at that particular time that was probably true, but only a complete idiot couldn't see that this has changed drastically. So are we supposed to lie to the kids who work their tails off and dream of going state that they have a good chance when we know it's not true. Or do we tell them the hard truth that even though they worked and played just as hard that they have a better chance of being struck by lightning all because someone said just go get better and refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem. At the end of the day when all is said and done this system is unbalanced and slanted in certain teams favor before the season ever even starts, championships are supposed to be decided on the field of play and not in the offices of some ignorant and naive KHSAA officials and that is unfair to the kids and I could care less what dumb, lazy and naive adults think. And to end this I want to say that I think your view on this is particularly rich seeing as how I specifically remember you saying on more then one occasion that winning in highschool football has less to do with X's and 0's and more to do with Jimmy's and Joe's. Your convenient views seem to be contradicting one another don't ya think lol.

I'm not going to lie, I don't have the time or inclination to read that text. My argument is public/private, not size in class differences. 1A Fulton City has no business playing 6A Louisville Male. I'm a strong advocate for 4-5 classes in Kentucky football. When we think about the problem, my question is why? Why can't teams compete with each other? Belfry High can line up and play with just about everyone in the state, however 19 minutes down the road Phelps High can't even get 6 wins a year. Why? Talent level? You're telling me the talent level is that different 19 minutes away? Again though, my point is Phelps shouldn't be playing 3A Belfry, they should be playing Jenkins, Berea, Harlan, Lynn Camp, Etc. I will never advocate for giving everyone a way to win. You should play in the clsss your assigned against and if you can win the state championship, I'll congratulate you like you deserve. I promise you Belfry can compete with Christian Academy of Louisville, DeSales, Bethlehem, Holy Cross, CovCath, LexCath, LCA, Piarist, Rose Hill, NewCath, Owensboro Catholic, etc...

The talent argument really doesn't hold there in relation to private/public, now does it?

[Pulp Fiction]

Here are the All "A" & KHSAA state title winners in the same season.
If I missed a team, it wasn't on purpose. The All "A" webpage isn't very user-friendly.
http://www.allaclassic.org


Boys Basketball (Since 1990)
2010: Shelby Valley

Girls Basketball (Since 1991)
1993: Nicholas County
1997: Hazard
2007: Lexington Christian Academy

Baseball (Since 2004)
N/A

Softball (Since 2004)
N/A

Boys Soccer
N/A

Girls Soccer
N/A

Volleyball
N/A


More proof why the KHSAA needs some type of class system. Winning the All "A" state tournament is great and is the only team state title some schools have. In some seasons, the All "A" regional winner doesn't even make it out of their District tournament and the numbers of the teams making it to the KHSAA state tournaments are even smaller.
However, if the 1A, 2A & 3A teams would play in their own tournament at the end of the season to coincide with the KHSAA post-season play (4A, 5A & 6A) and be an actual awarded KHSAA state championship, it would mean so much more.

Like I've said before, Belfry's 4-Peat doesn't happen if football wasn't Classed. Their 4-Peat is incredible and made them the best team East of Lexington and South of Covington since 1959, when the KHSAA introduced football as a sport. Nobody can say Belfry wasn't the best team in 3A over the past four seasons, but without Classification, they may have only won one if the stars aligned and luck fell their way. Winning a Classed state title doesn't take away from the feat they achieved. Other sports have the same stories. Great teams for their school size, but couldn't slay the big 6A schools in their region or had to play four straight 5A/6A schools in the Sweet 16.

[bball_fan]

I have many times posted on this site listing a possible three class system for all sports which are based off the attendance records listed on KHSAA website. We are one of the last states to remain with this one class system that is out dated and sold only for the boys and girls basketball sweet sixteen. Rarely do you get a Shelby Valley or Paintsville that can compete with larger schools and the hope for a Hoosiers like story and tradition. Nothing will change until the traditionalists retire from office.

[Pulp Fiction]

I have many times posted on this site listing a possible three class system for all sports which are based off the attendance records listed on KHSAA website. We are one of the last states to remain with this one class system that is out dated and sold only for the boys and girls basketball sweet sixteen. Rarely do you get a Shelby Valley or Paintsville that can compete with larger schools and the hope for a Hoosiers like story and tradition. Nothing will change until the traditionalists retire from office.

Truth.

[Pulp Fiction]

Team state championships updated thru the '17/'18 Winter sport seasons.

Cross Country
Girls
1A - Bishop Brossart
2A - Highlands
3A - DuPont Manual
Boys
1A - Holy Cross (Covington)
2A - Lexington Catholic
3A - St. Xavier

Field Hockey
Christian Academy-Louisville

Football
1A - Beechwood
2A - Danville
3A - Boyle County
4A - Franklin-Simpson
5A - Covington Catholic
6A - Trinity (Lou.)

Golf
Girls - Sacred Heart
Boys - Lexington Christian

Soccer
Girls - West Jessamine
Boys - St. Xavier

Volleyball
Assumption

Basketball
Boys - Covington Catholic
Girls - Mercer County

Wrestling
Union County

Swimming & Diving
Boys - St. Xavier
Girls - Sacred Heart

Bowling
Girls - PRP
Boys - Butler
Unified - Butler

Competitive Cheer
Small - Pikeville
Medium - North Laurel
Large - Dunbar
Super Large - Bullitt East
Coed A - Bullitt Central
Coed B - McCracken County
Game Day Small - Bowling Green
Game Day Large - Madison Central
Sweet Sixteen Boys - Corbin
Sweet Sixteen Girls - Harlan County

[Bossdaddy 4115]

Grammar errors aside, I'm not making the argument that "Big schools" always have the advantage.

Take Wrestling for example, there are reasons why the NFHS & the KHSAA have specific weight classes and require wrestlers to make weight before competing in an event. Having a 160 lbs. wrestler compete for a individual championship against a 113 lbs. wrestler wouldn't be fair. Even though the 113 lbs. wrestler might be the best in his weight class, that big of weight difference is the exact reason why their are different weight classes.


1A & 2A (1A)
3A & 4A (2A)
5A & 6A (3A)

1A, 2A, 3A (Small School)
4A, 5A, 6A (Large School)


Two or three classes would be the best. Or having a Public/Private split are the options I see that would level the playing field for all involved. Sports are about striving to be the best and winning the competition you compete in. However, when a goal is so far out of reach that it doesn't become fun for the players, we have a problem. Giving the schools who've never been to a state championship game or state tournament the idea they can actually win a state title, IMO, would be a great way to rejuvenate participation numbers and community support for the member schools.

The way you placed 1 and 2, 3 and 4, 5 and 6 may be the best idea I have heard. It’s fair to all and makes it still a great accomplishment.

[Pulp Fiction]

Looking at this thread, you can see I was the conductor for the Classification train. After much thought and consideration, Baseball & Basketball need to be left alone.



There is not a 'One Size Fita All' type of classification that would work for every sport. These are the three best options if classification does happen. Sports where an overall team champion and individual champions are awarded (XC, Golf, Wrestling, Swimming & Diving, Tennis, Track & Field) IMO, the Individual awards do not need to be classed.

1A, 2A, 3A.
4A, 5A, 6A
(Softball, Soccer, Wrestling)

1A, 2A
3A, 4A
5A, 6A
(Cross Country, Track & Field)

Public/Private
(Swimming & Diving, Volleyball, Golf, Tennis)