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12-16-2013, 02:34 PM
So do you Russell fans just think Raceland automatically has "spread" type of athletes every year? That's all I hear from Russell, we don't have the athletes to run the spread. Raceland doesn't have any magical formula to produce "spread" type athletes every year.. It's called repition. They practice their system the same way, every day, over and over until their athletes become comfortable and successful in the system. The spread isn't something you just practice once or twice a week for a few minutes as a "package". The spread system is a complete culture change to the program. You have the athletes at Russell, just need the right system in place to take advantage of those athletes.
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12-16-2013, 03:04 PM
NoPicks Wrote:So do you Russell fans just think Raceland automatically has "spread" type of athletes every year? That's all I hear from Russell, we don't have the athletes to run the spread. Raceland doesn't have any magical formula to produce "spread" type athletes every year.. It's called repition. They practice their system the same way, every day, over and over until their athletes become comfortable and successful in the system. The spread isn't something you just practice once or twice a week for a few minutes as a "package". The spread system is a complete culture change to the program. You have the athletes at Russell, just need the right system in place to take advantage of those athletes.
I am not a Russell fan..just someone who respects their program
Raceland is a 1A school. Russell is a 3A school. If Russell's playoff path consisted of 1A schools they could get by with the spread using the athletes they have... but Russell has to play teams that are bigger, stronger, faster, and deeper
12-16-2013, 03:52 PM
There is nothing wrong with the wing T. Play calling could use a bit more imagination.
Talent level is coming back up after a lull. Every school goes through it .
I don't really care what Raceland runs. Repetition is the key to any system.
EKU summed it up pretty well. We haven't had those difference makers in a few years. Quite honestly the line play hasn't been real good either . The ball control offense really helped paticularly this year in limiting the oppositions offense and keeping our defense off of the field.
Over the next few years I think you are going to see those playmakers emerge and the line play improve drastically.
Talent level is coming back up after a lull. Every school goes through it .
I don't really care what Raceland runs. Repetition is the key to any system.
EKU summed it up pretty well. We haven't had those difference makers in a few years. Quite honestly the line play hasn't been real good either . The ball control offense really helped paticularly this year in limiting the oppositions offense and keeping our defense off of the field.
Over the next few years I think you are going to see those playmakers emerge and the line play improve drastically.
12-16-2013, 04:02 PM
I'll add this as well and EKU brought it up. Depth. I don't think there is anything in football that is underestimated more than depth. Look at what Collons accomplished this year after switching to more of a platoon system. It is what has always made Highlands stand above the rest of the schools their size.
Russell has the talent and numbers coming up in the next four classes to take advantage of that. Particularly on the line of scrimmage. I'm excited about the next half decade. They could produce some really good teams.
Russell has the talent and numbers coming up in the next four classes to take advantage of that. Particularly on the line of scrimmage. I'm excited about the next half decade. They could produce some really good teams.
12-16-2013, 07:16 PM
FBall, if I were you in would start caring what Raceland does on offense, their spread system had a lot to do with 4 straight wins over the Devils. Secondly, EKU and FBall, the spread allows you to compete when teams are bigger, stronger, and deeper. That is why it was designed in the first place. Raceland didn't have the size and personnel to line up and mash people between the tackles.. They switch to the spread and within a few years became a consistent competitor in Class A football and beating your Russell (3A) teams and several Ashland (4A), Boyd (4a), Lawrence (3A), and others along the way. So don't use the excuse that the spread won't work in 3A, that's just ridiculous to say. Russell may have the personnel coming up to once again be able to run it down and around peoples throats as they did in the past. But from my perspective, I think they need a change and some new excitement around the program. Play fast, spread it around, throw it run it catch and score a ton of points. The wing T is for the Stone Age.
12-16-2013, 11:34 PM
Uh no.
I don't really care what Raceland or anybody else runs. I like balance. I like smart football. I'm not knocking the spread. There are aspects of it I like.
Winning is exciting. Russell simply hasn't had the play makers the last 5 years that they have had in the past. That's a fact.
When did the Ams last win a title with that vaunted spread Franklin offense? You don't have to answer that.
Russell was in back to back state title games within this past decade. Stone Age offense and all.
Those also are facts
I'll throw this one two EKU. Belfry has maintained their elite level despite their own Stone Age offense. Talent and defense still go a long way in football.
I don't really care what Raceland or anybody else runs. I like balance. I like smart football. I'm not knocking the spread. There are aspects of it I like.
Winning is exciting. Russell simply hasn't had the play makers the last 5 years that they have had in the past. That's a fact.
When did the Ams last win a title with that vaunted spread Franklin offense? You don't have to answer that.
Russell was in back to back state title games within this past decade. Stone Age offense and all.
Those also are facts
I'll throw this one two EKU. Belfry has maintained their elite level despite their own Stone Age offense. Talent and defense still go a long way in football.
12-17-2013, 02:10 AM
I see both sides. I think it goes back to coaching the players you have. Its the same deal at Raceland. While Elkins was a smart/solid qb, he wasnt a Boyles, He wasnt a Grizzle, wasnt a Farley (the qbs before him). Adam wasnt going to be throwing any balls 40+ yards down the field. If he did, Raceland wouldnt have faced teams that stacked the box and played man coverage. Which is what Wburg did to us.
There were times this year, that Raceland could hae been successful lining up in the Power I and sucking defenses in and running some play action bootlegs to get Elkins outside where he could get the fade routes down field. But, it didnt really fot ito the system, so we utilized the screen, quick slants, and Quick outs. He wqs still able to throw for over 1500 yards and over 15 tds. Next season you will see a more of a dual threat at qb. Josh Young has a stronger arm and is a little taller and more mobile than Adam was, you will also see more Conner and probably Carson Christian in the wildcat. There is a reason for this.
Raceland's OLINE. They wont be horsing anyone around next year. So the qb needs to be someone who can make plays with their legs, but can also throw on the run. Its all about coaching the players you have. Raceland runs the Franklin System, but this year starting runnig more out of a Spread Wing/Pistol and runnig the option. But, theough the years Raceland has done this. Going between the Bone/Pro/Franklin systems. So they are pretty fluent at doing any of which when called upon.
Russell's system works, but when you dot have the speed to get to the outside or speed to get to the 2nd level before the DBs do, the wing T will struggle. Russell has some great tallent coming in. Do they need a few more wrinkles? Yes. Because of the circumstances that they have ran into in recent years. Russell fans need not worry. Look at it this way, the entire reason everyone's in an uproar is bc no one was used to playing for less than a regional championship in the playoffs. Every school goes trough trial years, bad years, some you'd just assume not happen. Keeps this in mind, when a new sustem comes in, it usually takes 3-5 years to get it in order and runnig smoothly.
There were times this year, that Raceland could hae been successful lining up in the Power I and sucking defenses in and running some play action bootlegs to get Elkins outside where he could get the fade routes down field. But, it didnt really fot ito the system, so we utilized the screen, quick slants, and Quick outs. He wqs still able to throw for over 1500 yards and over 15 tds. Next season you will see a more of a dual threat at qb. Josh Young has a stronger arm and is a little taller and more mobile than Adam was, you will also see more Conner and probably Carson Christian in the wildcat. There is a reason for this.
Raceland's OLINE. They wont be horsing anyone around next year. So the qb needs to be someone who can make plays with their legs, but can also throw on the run. Its all about coaching the players you have. Raceland runs the Franklin System, but this year starting runnig more out of a Spread Wing/Pistol and runnig the option. But, theough the years Raceland has done this. Going between the Bone/Pro/Franklin systems. So they are pretty fluent at doing any of which when called upon.
Russell's system works, but when you dot have the speed to get to the outside or speed to get to the 2nd level before the DBs do, the wing T will struggle. Russell has some great tallent coming in. Do they need a few more wrinkles? Yes. Because of the circumstances that they have ran into in recent years. Russell fans need not worry. Look at it this way, the entire reason everyone's in an uproar is bc no one was used to playing for less than a regional championship in the playoffs. Every school goes trough trial years, bad years, some you'd just assume not happen. Keeps this in mind, when a new sustem comes in, it usually takes 3-5 years to get it in order and runnig smoothly.
12-17-2013, 08:58 AM
FBall do you watch college football? The spread does not mean it's a pass first system. Nearly all spread teams are run first, Auburn, Oregon, Ohio State, UK and so on, all run first approaches. The spread provides better numbers in the box so that you are able to run the ball when you cannot simply line up in two TE's and smash mouth it. Secondly, Raceland did just win a title, a regional title and a final four appearance and once again, had a ton of success with the spread against Russell and other larger schools. My final point is that people have such a misconception about the spread, they think it means throw throw throw and gimmick gimmick gimmick.. That's not it; it's about giving your players a chance to compete every Friday even though teams may be bigger, stronger, and faster than you. You put athletes in space, you take advantage of numbers in the box, and you limit defensive substations while dictating tempo and wearing down your opponent. Good luck running it down Belfrys throats with two tights and a wing, not going to happen unless a Russell is just THAT good. Why do you think Uk hired Neal Brown?! Because they know they can't compete against superior talent with a pro style offense. Same goes in high school football.
12-17-2013, 09:17 AM
^^^^
This isn't college though. You just listed Auburn, Oregon, and Ohio State as examples... teams who traditionally have the top recruiting classes in the country and get super talented players who they evaluate and offer based specifically if they fit their system.
Once again it comes down to talent more than anything.
I don't disagree with your argument... I think anyone would prefer to have an offense that displays balance and can hurt you equally with the run or the pass... and can score with a 15 play drive..or a single flare pass.
What we are saying is that over the past 5 or 6 years Russell simply hasn't had the talent or the athletes to subsidize an offense that is built to maximize with a lack of skill/speed.... let alone a spread. Had Russell scrapped their entire system and started from scratch it would have been a fail of astronomical proportions.. not only would kids have to learn an entire new system... but once they did you simply didn't have the talent to successfully pull it off.
Since we are using the example of colleges... why do the service academies still run such a primitive offense? Why have FCS schools like Georgia Southern and Southern Conference schools sustained success for decades primarily running our of a primitive offense?
The Wing T, Wishbone, and Flexbone are simply THE best choice to give optimal chance for success and consistency when the talent level isn;t extremely high.
When Russell has the athletes their offense works. They won a State Title running over Belfry and if not for the controversial Mercer County team (Who also ran out of the bone) would have had another.
The UK example is fitting though... you are correct that UK is trying to implement the spread to compete at the collegiate level with longer quarters and more posessions... but look how inadequate the offense was this year without having talent as well. It requires recruiting better talent to work... if you don't have talent NO offense will work. Secondarily, if your defense can't get off the field and/or you are stuck playing from behind your offense will rarely function how you want as well.
This isn't college though. You just listed Auburn, Oregon, and Ohio State as examples... teams who traditionally have the top recruiting classes in the country and get super talented players who they evaluate and offer based specifically if they fit their system.
Once again it comes down to talent more than anything.
I don't disagree with your argument... I think anyone would prefer to have an offense that displays balance and can hurt you equally with the run or the pass... and can score with a 15 play drive..or a single flare pass.
What we are saying is that over the past 5 or 6 years Russell simply hasn't had the talent or the athletes to subsidize an offense that is built to maximize with a lack of skill/speed.... let alone a spread. Had Russell scrapped their entire system and started from scratch it would have been a fail of astronomical proportions.. not only would kids have to learn an entire new system... but once they did you simply didn't have the talent to successfully pull it off.
Since we are using the example of colleges... why do the service academies still run such a primitive offense? Why have FCS schools like Georgia Southern and Southern Conference schools sustained success for decades primarily running our of a primitive offense?
The Wing T, Wishbone, and Flexbone are simply THE best choice to give optimal chance for success and consistency when the talent level isn;t extremely high.
When Russell has the athletes their offense works. They won a State Title running over Belfry and if not for the controversial Mercer County team (Who also ran out of the bone) would have had another.
The UK example is fitting though... you are correct that UK is trying to implement the spread to compete at the collegiate level with longer quarters and more posessions... but look how inadequate the offense was this year without having talent as well. It requires recruiting better talent to work... if you don't have talent NO offense will work. Secondarily, if your defense can't get off the field and/or you are stuck playing from behind your offense will rarely function how you want as well.
12-17-2013, 09:22 AM
The argument I could get behind though is that if Russell knew the talent pool was going to be so down that the past four or five years would have been the window to make the wholesale philosophical change if that is the route they wanted to go. If you knew your chances to compete for a State Title were thin then 4 years ago would have been the opportune time to install a new offense from top to bottom instead of waiting until the talent pool rose and subsequently hindering yourself then.
The major flaw though is this would have required patience and acceptance for several years of BAD football (like weakest team in NEKY bad) and to stay the course. Based on reactions even after what would be deemed as most as "successful" seasons I don't think that patience would have existed within the Russell community.
The major flaw though is this would have required patience and acceptance for several years of BAD football (like weakest team in NEKY bad) and to stay the course. Based on reactions even after what would be deemed as most as "successful" seasons I don't think that patience would have existed within the Russell community.
12-17-2013, 10:06 AM
^^^
You are still comparing college...where you can recruit the players to fit your system and where D-1 athletes are going to have a high level of God Given ability.... to smaller classification Kentucky High School where you are basically stuck with a talent base and have to make due with the athletes you are given.
It isn't even Apples to Oranges...you are comparing Grapes to Merlot Wines
You are still comparing college...where you can recruit the players to fit your system and where D-1 athletes are going to have a high level of God Given ability.... to smaller classification Kentucky High School where you are basically stuck with a talent base and have to make due with the athletes you are given.
It isn't even Apples to Oranges...you are comparing Grapes to Merlot Wines
12-17-2013, 10:15 AM
Russell will run the wing T as long as McGlone is in charge. The wing T is NOT the problem. You can will state titles running the wing T. Just ask Scott County.
The problem has been personnel. I have followed the program a little and think 2 of the running backs from this past season's freshmen team will start this upcoming season and add some athleticism/speed to the Devils. They need to find their 3 best run stuffing dlinemen and play them one way IMO. Then get as quick/fast as possible on defense otherwise.
Offensively, they will be quite good assuming the line is above average. Conley, Korzep, and McKee are primed for a very good season IMO.
The problem has been personnel. I have followed the program a little and think 2 of the running backs from this past season's freshmen team will start this upcoming season and add some athleticism/speed to the Devils. They need to find their 3 best run stuffing dlinemen and play them one way IMO. Then get as quick/fast as possible on defense otherwise.
Offensively, they will be quite good assuming the line is above average. Conley, Korzep, and McKee are primed for a very good season IMO.
12-17-2013, 11:16 AM
Ok ok ... You're right, it's much better to run Conley between the tackles 30 times gain Belfry and Bourbon as opposed to putting him in space, allowing him to exploit 1on1 matchups and have the ability to take on smaller defensive backs instead of bigger/stronger LBs and Dline. Smh...
12-17-2013, 12:03 PM
I can't top what EKU and PaytoPlay typed.
I will add this. If you believe that the WingT is designed to just power run between the tackles you've never really watched it. Which a lot of people never really have.
No picks, I never said the spread was pass onlly.
I will add this. If you believe that the WingT is designed to just power run between the tackles you've never really watched it. Which a lot of people never really have.
No picks, I never said the spread was pass onlly.
12-17-2013, 01:05 PM
When you never work on throwing the ball in practice don't expect to be able to call those type of plays during a game when teams put 8 and9 in the box. Russell is one dimensional, has been that way for a long time. If you stop the run, Russell is beat. No balance at all. Spread offers balance, better numbers in the box, and diversity.
12-17-2013, 02:17 PM
The wing T is prinarily misdirection, counters, and traps. But personel is personel. Conley is not a space play maker. His success comes from rhythm and repetition. Theres alot more to the Wng T than just running between the tackles. What FBALL, EKU, P2P have said ribg true. The system is what has made football successful through the years. Ball control, great defense, good punting, speciak teams in general. GOOD fundamental football can still win games. You just have to have tat ine guy. A Josh Gross, Casey Clark, Drew Abrams. Someone with the toughness to bang beyween the tackles, but has enough break away speed once they hit the 2nd level. Russell simply didnt have that the last 3 seasons.
12-17-2013, 02:27 PM
Again that's not the system and I don't disagree with your premise. Russell's best teams have had the ability to throw the ball just enough to make others have to respect it.
Just for the record they do practice passing.
We had jfl teams running the same exact offense as the high school this year and parents actually asking how come the highschool didn't run this offense. When they were told it was the highschool offense they couldn't believe it . They said the high school didn't have that many formations and plays. Its all there. The potential to pass, to spread people out by formation and motion, pass plays, run plays the whole shooting match.
Now I agree with you the play calling the last few years especially has been too conservative and too predictable. There is much more they could do within that offensive system to keep defenses off balance.
Just for the record they do practice passing.
We had jfl teams running the same exact offense as the high school this year and parents actually asking how come the highschool didn't run this offense. When they were told it was the highschool offense they couldn't believe it . They said the high school didn't have that many formations and plays. Its all there. The potential to pass, to spread people out by formation and motion, pass plays, run plays the whole shooting match.
Now I agree with you the play calling the last few years especially has been too conservative and too predictable. There is much more they could do within that offensive system to keep defenses off balance.
12-17-2013, 02:42 PM
Exactly. Raceland used to run the bone. Which relied on stretch plays, dives, and leads with a pretty good play action passing game. But Raceland saw what was coming up through JFL and what the future could look like by implementing the new offensive system. With that said, theres no need for Russell to change systems, just utilize the iffense the already run. Like FBALL said, you can still throw and spread the field out using the Wing's split right/left, even slot. Which essetially becomes a broken wing. With all the misdirection, the playaction passing can be very effective out of the wing.
12-17-2013, 03:08 PM
Honestly I would like to see them use the I a little more with the talent that is coming up.
Conley actually reminds me a little bit of Casey Clark. Same kind of build but Conley is a little taller. And if you watched the 05 and 06 teams you saw how good and effective Clark was with a Fullback leading the way.
Conley actually reminds me a little bit of Casey Clark. Same kind of build but Conley is a little taller. And if you watched the 05 and 06 teams you saw how good and effective Clark was with a Fullback leading the way.
12-17-2013, 05:10 PM
mightydog Wrote:if I remember, Clark didn't have a breakout season until his Jr year. Conley broke out this yr, of coarse Gross was the featured back so he didn't get the touches. I look for Conley to be a better back than Clark
If that's the case we are in for quite a run. Neither Clark or Gross or any of the really good running backs at Russell were pushed into carrying the load as a freshman. I think that fact best displays the conversation we have been having.
I do think Clark had better ball skills and was more of a threat as a receiver.
We will see as Nick grows and matures.
12-17-2013, 07:14 PM
Conley lets the ball get away from a secure position. He needs to work on protecting the rock.
I saw him many times ALMOST break long runs. To the extent you can improve straight line speed, gaining a step would make a big difference for the young man. He does have a large frame.
The two upcoming Sophmore running backs looked to be built similarly - with good height/frame.
I saw him many times ALMOST break long runs. To the extent you can improve straight line speed, gaining a step would make a big difference for the young man. He does have a large frame.
The two upcoming Sophmore running backs looked to be built similarly - with good height/frame.
12-17-2013, 07:26 PM
I think physical maturity may take care of gaining a step and ball security. He runs really hard.
The other two you are talking about I believe one will be moved to an TE/WR. The fullback on this years freshman team is built shorter and stockier and had terrific instincts when running the ball.
The other two you are talking about I believe one will be moved to an TE/WR. The fullback on this years freshman team is built shorter and stockier and had terrific instincts when running the ball.
12-17-2013, 11:19 PM
EKUAlum05 Wrote:^^^I agree with this to an extent. However you have to remember that even though you don't have the talent of an Alabama or Auburn, you ain't lining up against Florida either! Can a high school guard scoop a backside 3 technique? Sure, because 99% of the time the three technique isn't a 6,3 300 pound athlete like the guys who play in the SEC. Where you are limited is in the mental aspect of the game because you simply don't have the same amount of time to scheme and gameplan with your players as you would in college.I think you can run whatever you want as long as you are fundamentally sound and your players understand your system and why you do what you do.
You are still comparing college...where you can recruit the players to fit your system and where D-1 athletes are going to have a high level of God Given ability.... to smaller classification Kentucky High School where you are basically stuck with a talent base and have to make due with the athletes you are given.
It isn't even Apples to Oranges...you are comparing Grapes to Merlot Wines
12-18-2013, 02:06 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2013, 02:08 AM by Scotty_Bronson.)
FBALL Wrote:Honestly I would like to see them use the I a little more with the talent that is coming up.
Conley actually reminds me a little bit of Casey Clark. Same kind of build but Conley is a little taller. And if you watched the 05 and 06 teams you saw how good and effective Clark was with a Fullback leading the way.
Thats something Russell is definitely not used to. Having to have Frosh guys step into major roles. Its the norm at Raceland. If the Russell worriors can just keep the faith, their minds will be able to rest easy. BC w the tallent Russell has coming trough the system, they will be fine. The Raceland and Russell classes from 2016-2020 or so look very similar. High numbers, good size, smart kids, atheletic. No mattec who is OC...no matter who is at the Helm, Russell has the athoetes to just about run whatever offense they want and be successful.
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