[Squid]

... Wether you believe that or not it should go back to an original human. From there we can go back to basic organisms and amino acids. Where does it end? Actually where does it begin?

That's a great question, Matman. It is one of the classic questions that is (and probably always will be) pondered by philosophy.

Science (in the form of physics) will always search for information to base theories on (such as the Big Bang, string theory, and the Oscillating Egg), but in my opinion, we will probably never have enough data to know the answer for certain.

Religion (all organized religions) offer us the answer of faith - that God (in whatever form or forms we see Him) is the Prime Mover. In philosophical circles, however, that only begs the question of who begat the Prime Mover (God Himself).

It really is a great question - and as of today - it has no indisputable answer. One accepts God on faith - alone - or one simply waits for more data, as people like Stephen Hawking try to work out the puzzle. That's why I'm an agnostic. I can't accept the answer on faith, and I know just enough about physics to know that it doesn't have enough data to provide the answer either.

So, I'm an agnostic in the question of God's existence, and an agnostic in the qeustion of the beginning of the universe.

I wish you the absolute best of luck in your pursuit of the answers to either (or both) of those questions.

[Deathstar 80]

... and here we part company. My ability to reason is what allows me to function as a human being. If you wish to study philosophy, you would do well to begin with a thorough understanding of Rene Descartes, his exploration of existentialism, and his famous quote "Cogito, ergo sum".

I'm sorry. I received this answer from the famous preacher Billy Graham, but I misheard what he said. He said we can't come to God intellectually alone. We must come to God in faith, as a little child has faith in his father.

I understand that you place great faith in the Bible. There are a lot of other books (all written by man) that claim to be divinely inspired. Regardless of which book of faith one chooses, the bottom line is that blind faith in the divinity of that book is required to embrace it. Logic must be suspended in order to accept it as the word of God(s). Science is innacurate, and not only admits it, but openly embraces its mistakes in pursuit of knowledge. Philosophy, on the other hand, makes no claims to accuracy. Only religion makes claims of inerrancy.

Have you looked over the Bible prophecies individually? If you haven't, I urge you to. I'm interested in what you have to say about the individual prophecies. Also, you said that only religion makes claims of inerrancy (religion says it's without error). Would you mind telling the mistakes of the Bible? I know this would take a lot of time and research to do, so I completely understand if you don't want to do this. If you want me to and if I can, I'll be glad to try to find some questions about the Bible.

Also, you mentioned you were an agnostic (to my understanding, that's someone who thinks there might be a God, but they're not for sure). I just wanted to warn you that you're still in danger of **** even though you're unsure. God's not going to excuse you from his wrath just because you weren't sure if you were to accept Jesus as savior and lord or not. It's just as if you're standing in the middle of the road with a large truck coming toward you. Whether you believe it or not, you will certainly die if that truck hits you. Please examine yourself with the ten commandments:

1. You shall have no other gods before me
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol
3. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God (using God's name as a word to express filth)
4. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
5. Honor your father and mother
6. You shall not murder (includes hating someone, Matthew 5:21-22)
7. You shall not commit adultery (looking on someone with lust, Matthew 5:27-28)
8. You shall not steal
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
10. You shall not covet.

The Bible teaches that we can't get into heaven because of good works because we've sinned (if we've broken even one commandment, we can't go to heaven). This is why people become happy to hear that Jesus died for them. We have a second opportunity. It's by the grace of God alone (of sending his son to die for us) that we're saved. We simply have to accept the gift by accepting Jesus as lord and savior of our lives. The reason I've explained this (even though you might have already knew this) was because I've learned that most people still think they can earn their way to heaven, which the Bible clearly says they can't do. I mentioned earlier about how you're standing in the middle of the road with a large truck coming toward you. God gave you an escape to avoid that large truck through his son Jesus Christ. In other words, he's offering you life!! You, as well as all of us (being the human race as a whole), are given the choices of choosing life or death. Doesn't it make sense to immediately take life?!?!

[Wildcats11]

I'm sorry. I received this answer from the famous preacher Billy Graham, but I misheard what he said. He said we can't come to God intellectually alone. We must come to God in faith, as a little child has faith in his father.



Have you looked over the Bible prophecies individually? If you haven't, I urge you to. I'm interested in what you have to say about the individual prophecies. Also, you said that only religion makes claims of inerrancy (religion says it's without error). Would you mind telling the mistakes of the Bible? I know this would take a lot of time and research to do, so I completely understand if you don't want to do this. If you want me to and if I can, I'll be glad to try to find some questions about the Bible.

Also, you mentioned you were an agnostic (to my understanding, that's someone who thinks there might be a God, but they're not for sure). I just wanted to warn you that you're still in danger of **** even though you're unsure. God's not going to excuse you from his wrath just because you weren't sure if you were to accept Jesus as savior and lord or not. It's just as if you're standing in the middle of the road with a large truck coming toward you. Whether you believe it or not, you will certainly die if that truck hits you. Please examine yourself with the ten commandments:

1. You shall have no other gods before me
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol
3. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God (using God's name as a word to express filth)
4. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
5. Honor your father and mother
6. You shall not murder (includes hating someone, Matthew 5:21-22)
7. You shall not commit adultery (looking on someone with lust, Matthew 5:27-28)
8. You shall not steal
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
10. You shall not covet.

The Bible teaches that we can't get into heaven because of good works because we've sinned (if we've broken even one commandment, we can't go to heaven). This is why people become happy to hear that Jesus died for them. We have a second opportunity. It's by the grace of God alone (of sending his son to die for us) that we're saved. We simply have to accept the gift by accepting Jesus as lord and savior of our lives. The reason I've explained this (even though you might have already knew this) was because I've learned that most people still think they can earn their way to heaven, which the Bible clearly says they can't do. I mentioned earlier about how you're standing in the middle of the road with a large truck coming toward you. God gave you an escape to avoid that large truck through his son Jesus Christ. In other words, he's offering you life!! You, as well as all of us (being the human race as a whole), are given the choices of choosing life or death. Doesn't it make sense to immediately take life?!?!

:Thumbs:

[dbcooper]

Reason and faith are not mutually exclusive.
St. Augustine said he reasoned, then believed.
John 1:1 uses the Greek word from which is derived "logic or reason" (logos).
The Apostle Paul appeals repeatedly to classic forms of rhetoric and logical argumentation.
Aquinas, Calvin, St. Anselm and many others apply reason to the revealed Word of God.
Many (in this thread and in far weightier discussions) have brought up the problems of pain and suffering in their relation to the question of the presence and nature of God, but no one seems to ever bring up the problem of pleasure.
I simply suggest this, read more than you've ever read about these matters.
Read Calvin. Read Luther. Read Aquinas. Read C.S. Lewis. Read Chesterton. Read St. John. Read Romans. Read Hebrews. Read Acts.
Read it all. Read it with consideration. Read it deliberately, not dismissively. If you're offended by the acts of Christians, then consider yourselves in good company. Paul, Peter, John and James - brilliant men all and much closer to God than I - were offended by Christians' behavior also. But none of them let it stand between themselves and worship.
One thing is certain to me, God's grace in Christ is my sole means of salvation, through a faith that is not of my own doing, but faith that is a gift from Him. I was dead, and am now made alive.
Without Christ, I am nothing except a doomed man in a fallen world.

[dbcooper]

That's a great question, Matman. It is one of the classic questions that is (and probably always will be) pondered by philosophy.

Science (in the form of physics) will always search for information to base theories on (such as the Big Bang, string theory, and the Oscillating Egg), but in my opinion, we will probably never have enough data to know the answer for certain.

Religion (all organized religions) offer us the answer of faith - that God (in whatever form or forms we see Him) is the Prime Mover. In philosophical circles, however, that only begs the question of who begat the Prime Mover (God Himself).

It really is a great question - and as of today - it has no indisputable answer. One accepts God on faith - alone - or one simply waits for more data, as people like Stephen Hawking try to work out the puzzle. That's why I'm an agnostic. I can't accept the answer on faith, and I know just enough about physics to know that it doesn't have enough data to provide the answer either.

So, I'm an agnostic in the question of God's existence, and an agnostic in the qeustion of the beginning of the universe.

I wish you the absolute best of luck in your pursuit of the answers to either (or both) of those questions.

But wait... science itself confirms that the question can only track back to matter - which cannot be destroyed.

So, the question can only proceed so far without demanding a source of creation. That, then, is the true question.

Not how life proceeded. Not how humans got here and great apes and continental drift and the like.

The question, traced as far as possible, comes down to this - where did matter come from?

If you don't believe in creation, then you believe in nothing. It is simple as that. And the equation, then, works like this: from nothing proceeds nothing (Latin, ex nihilo nihil fit).

But wait, there's more... I personally think it is proper to say that God does not exist. At least not as you and I exist. There is no beginning or end to God and His essential nature, while reflected in creation, is not present in it (that is to say, God is not in the rocks, trees, snow-capped mountains or azure skies) and He does not dwell in any building made with human hands.

I will add this: reducing all this down to an exercise in argumentation and debate does not serve the purpose we wish - no matter your vantage point. I can no more drag you to faith and understanding than you (or anyone else, for that matter... and many have tried earnestly) can drag me to unbelief.

I'm sure you're all tired of me on this topic. Good night.

[Homer Simpson]

So, if I take you right, you are suggesting that Buddha is in "a devil's ****"? That Guatama Buddha, though he probably never heard of "jesus lord and savior" is where the worm doesn't turn and the fire is not quenched? Along with Hitler and Pol Pot? And your answer to this is, "The Bible tells me so"?

Although buddha is a religion im saying that just like eve and adam were decieved so was he, muhhammed, confucious,all the catholic popes who said they were God..and alot of good men through history.. remember this works with out faith is nothing and faith with out works means nothing.. Jesus Christ is the only way to get God and we can prey to him ourselves... its not as complicated as it seems say a preyer thank God for life for sending Jesus to die for us so we could have a chance to make it to Heaven.. Praise him .. things change.. and what if im right and ur wrong

[Homer Simpson]

I am sorry for your loss. One man's experience is just that: one man's experience. I can't see that it settles much of anything. Looking out a window and seeing a white horse doesn't, of course, mean that all horses are white.

My Dad died of Cancer to.. i preyed and preyed he wouldnt die.. I cant say i had 100% faithe god would heel him cuz if i had my dad would be here if it not be Gods will.. Gods ways are not our ways we could never understand why things happen that is divine because were not..

[Homer Simpson]

Have you ever thought if "god" was real, then why would something tell you he/she wasn't? Do you really think such a question resolves anything?

Just remember God speaks to your heart..

[Stardust]

Just remember God speaks to your heart..

Amen! Whether you believe or not, he does speak to your heart.

[TheRealVille]

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended for us to forego their use." -Galileo Galilei

[baller4life]

Wwjd

[nky]

Wwjd

What Would Jesus Drive? probably a big old honkin SUV or maybe a school bus

[Stardust]

^ Humh.

[Deathstar 80]

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended for us to forego their use." -Galileo Galilei

All of you can go ahead and use knowledge and reason to help you believe in God; that's completely fine. I personally find it more satisfactory to just have faith in God.

By the way, here's two mathematical prophecies some of you might be interested in reading:

1) http://www.direct.ca/trinity/king.html#1 <-- Titled as "The Unexpected King (A Precise Mathematical Prediction)" by Chuck Missler. I hope nobody minds, but I put this in a link since there's quite a bit of reading.

2) Titled "God's Precise Mathematical Equation; Ezekiel Prophesied Israel's 1948 Rebirth" by Grant R. Jeffrey.

The Jews would remain without an independent nation for another 2,520 biblical years from 536 B.C., the beginning point of the prediction (360 years x 7 = 2,520 years biblical years).

Ezekiel's prophecy of the 430 years declared that the end of Israel's punishment and her final restoration to the land would be accomplished in 2,520 biblical years of 360 days (The biblical year is 360 days long, which is different from our year length which is 365.25 days) each which totals precisely 907,200 days. To convert this period into our calendar year of 365.25 days we simply divide the period of 907,200 days by 365.25 days to reach a total of 2,483.8 of our modern calendar years. Therefore, Ezekiel prophesied that the end of Israel's worldwide captivity would occur precisely 2,483.8 years after the end of the Babylonian Captivity which occurred in the spring of 536 B.C. In these calculations we must keep in mind that there was only one year between 1 B.C. and A.D. 1. There was no year Zero. As an illustration, there were only twelve months between the Feast of Passover on 14th of Nisan in the spring of 1 B.C. and the next annual Feast of Passover in the spring of A.D. 1.

To Calculate When Ezekiel Prophesied the Jews Would Become a Nation Again:

The Babylonian captivity ended in the Spring of 536 B.C. So that's 536.4 B.C. MINUS the duration of Israel's captivity (from Ezekiel 4:3-6), which is 2,483.8 calendar years.
This equals 1,947.4 A.D.
To adjust for the fact there was no year zero between 1 B.C. and A.D. 1, we adjust one year. As a result, add 1.
Therefore; the end of Israel's captivity would occur: 1948 - May 15, The Rebirth of Israel.

On the afternoon of May 14, 1948, the Jews proclaimed the independence of the reborn state of Israel. At midnight, as May 15, 1948, began, the British Mandate officially ended and Israel became an independent nation.

I edited this a little bit since it was jumbled from where I simply copied and pasted it. If you find any information that sounds odd, just point it out. It's most likely my mistake.

[Stardust]

All of you can go ahead and use knowledge and reason to help you believe in God; that's completely fine. I personally find it more satisfactory to just have faith in God.

By the way, here's two mathematical prophecies some of you might be interested in reading:

1) http://www.direct.ca/trinity/king.html#1 <-- Titled as "The Unexpected King (A Precise Mathematical Prediction)" by Chuck Missler. I hope nobody minds, but I put this in a link since there's quite a bit of reading.

2) Titled "God's Precise Mathematical Equation; Ezekiel Prophesied Israel's 1948 Rebirth" by Grant R. Jeffrey.

The Jews would remain without an independent nation for another 2,520 biblical years from 536 B.C., the beginning point of the prediction (360 years x 7 = 2,520 years biblical years).

Ezekiel's prophecy of the 430 years declared that the end of Israel's punishment and her final restoration to the land would be accomplished in 2,520 biblical years of 360 days (The biblical year is 360 days long, which is different from our year length which is 365.25 days) each which totals precisely 907,200 days. To convert this period into our calendar year of 365.25 days we simply divide the period of 907,200 days by 365.25 days to reach a total of 2,483.8 of our modern calendar years. Therefore, Ezekiel prophesied that the end of Israel's worldwide captivity would occur precisely 2,483.8 years after the end of the Babylonian Captivity which occurred in the spring of 536 B.C. In these calculations we must keep in mind that there was only one year between 1 B.C. and A.D. 1. There was no year Zero. As an illustration, there were only twelve months between the Feast of Passover on 14th of Nisan in the spring of 1 B.C. and the next annual Feast of Passover in the spring of A.D. 1.

To Calculate When Ezekiel Prophesied the Jews Would Become a Nation Again:

The Babylonian captivity ended in the Spring of 536 B.C. So that's 536.4 B.C. MINUS the duration of Israel's captivity (from Ezekiel 4:3-6), which is 2,483.8 calendar years.
This equals 1,947.4 A.D.
To adjust for the fact there was no year zero between 1 B.C. and A.D. 1, we adjust one year. As a result, add 1.
Therefore; the end of Israel's captivity would occur: 1948 - May 15, The Rebirth of Israel.

On the afternoon of May 14, 1948, the Jews proclaimed the independence of the reborn state of Israel. At midnight, as May 15, 1948, began, the British Mandate officially ended and Israel became an independent nation.

I edited this a little bit since it was jumbled from where I simply copied and pasted it. If you find any information that sounds odd, just point it out. It's most likely my mistake.

I have read something similar to this in the past. Good stuff. I'm going to read through it a few more times before I try to add more. :Thumbs: