[More Cowbell]

You are playing the if game there. The fact is Knott County Central did beat them.

No excuses a loss is a loss.

You're right, a loss is a loss. But I would think that anyone who has seen SV play would recognize that without Justice, they are nowhere near the same team. Losing a game where Justice did not play should not be viewed the same as one in which he did.

To me, saying that Justice was out isn't an excuse. Excuses are when someone states an opinion, such as "they weren't motivated", "they were tired", or "the refs were biased". Those are simply opinions of the person making the statement. But to say that Justice did not play in the game isn't opinion, it's fact. He didn't play due to an injury the previous day. Saying that SV wouldn't have lost if he did play, yes, that is an opinion. But pointing out that a regular starter did not play is simply stating fact.

It is my opinion, though, that SV does not lose that game against KCC if he plays. I'll put it this way. After watching the Elliott/SV game on Sunday, do you not think the outcome of the game would have been different if for some reason Justice did not play? I would venture to say it most definitely would have been, and it wouldn't have been pretty for SV. Elliott would have won by a lot.

[kybaseball]

It makes no difference if a player is with a team or not a loss is a loss in the record book was my point.I do think the outcome would have been different with EJ playing but he wasn't.
I like to watch Elliott play but they got beat by SV plain and simple no excuses. I want to see them play again because I don't think lighting will strike twice.

[FBALL]

You're right, a loss is a loss. But I would think that anyone who has seen SV play would recognize that without Justice, they are nowhere near the same team. Losing a game where Justice did not play should not be viewed the same as one in which he did.

To me, saying that Justice was out isn't an excuse. Excuses are when someone states an opinion, such as "they weren't motivated", "they were tired", or "the refs were biased". Those are simply opinions of the person making the statement. But to say that Justice did not play in the game isn't opinion, it's fact. He didn't play due to an injury the previous day. Saying that SV wouldn't have lost if he did play, yes, that is an opinion. But pointing out that a regular starter did not play is simply stating fact.

It is my opinion, though, that SV does not lose that game against KCC if he plays. I'll put it this way. After watching the Elliott/SV game on Sunday, do you not think the outcome of the game would have been different if for some reason Justice did not play? I would venture to say it most definitely would have been, and it wouldn't have been pretty for SV. Elliott would have won by a lot.

Yes I think Justice makes a big difference for Shelby Valley. The fact that they are so dependent on one player is the main reason I believe Elliott County is a better team. If just gets in foul trouble or has an off night, what does Valley do then?

Sure losing either of the Faulkners or Ferguson would hurt Elliott County as well but I believe it is something they would be more prepared to overcome.

Just because we all don't agree on rankings doesn't make any one persons wrong. I respect every other persons opinion and do not call them out on it. I would expect the same courtesy in return.

[PC_You_Know]

Yes I think Justice makes a big difference for Shelby Valley. The fact that they are so dependent on one player is the main reason I believe Elliott County is a better team. If just gets in foul trouble or has an off night, what does Valley do then?

Sure losing either of the Faulkners or Ferguson would hurt Elliott County as well but I believe it is something they would be more prepared to overcome.

Just because we all don't agree on rankings doesn't make any one persons wrong. I respect every other persons opinion and do not call them out on it. I would expect the same courtesy in return.

I'll tell you right now, I'd respect your opinion if you weren't such a homer. I myself even predicted Valley to lost to Elliott by at least 10 because of the way they had been playing lately, and then they win and you are still claiming Elliott is better, sorry, but you opinions on here mean diddly squat to me.

[BasketBallonlyfan]

Yes I think Justice makes a big difference for Shelby Valley. The fact that they are so dependent on one player is the main reason I believe Elliott County is a better team. If just gets in foul trouble or has an off night, what does Valley do then?

Sure losing either of the Faulkners or Ferguson would hurt Elliott County as well but I believe it is something they would be more prepared to overcome.

Just because we all don't agree on rankings doesn't make any one persons wrong. I respect every other persons opinion and do not call them out on it. I would expect the same courtesy in return.

The team that you voted for in the number 1, 2 and 3 spots, would you have voted for them in those spots if they had a player missing? For example, Holmes already defeated Scott Co, but Scott Co is ranked number 1. Take off their best player would you still think they are better than Holmes?

I thought you are supposed to vote each week on the team that has played that week. The last time I checked, Justice played for Valley. So why are basing where they should be ranked without him?

[FBALL]

The team that you voted for in the number 1, 2 and 3 spots, would you have voted for them in those spots if they had a player missing? For example, Holmes already defeated Scott Co, but Scott Co is ranked number 1. Take off their best player would you still think they are better than Holmes?

I thought you are supposed to vote each week on the team that has played that week. The last time I checked, Justice played for Valley. So why are basing where they should be ranked without him?

Shelby Valley is at more of a disadvantage if they lose Justice than any of the other teams if they lost their best player or if that best player had a bad game.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about in that last sentence.

[FBALL]

I'll tell you right now, I'd respect your opinion if you weren't such a homer. I myself even predicted Valley to lost to Elliott by at least 10 because of the way they had been playing lately, and then they win and you are still claiming Elliott is better, sorry, but you opinions on here mean diddly squat to me.

I'm not from Elliott County or anywhere close to it. I have no connections or attachments to them.

If my opinion means "diddly squat" then why get so upset over it?

Do you believe that Shelby Valley would win every time they played Elliott County if they played say 5 or 10 games. I don't. I believe it would be 6-4 in favor of Elliott County if they played 10 times. These two teams are very close. Its not like I'm saying Shelby Valley is a bad team.

Lets here the next one.

[BasketBallonlyfan]

What I meant by my last post is that when making your rankings, you are not supposed to make them based on "what if's". Yes Justice is very important to Valley. But him having a bad game or getting hurt should not make a difference in what the rankings are based on.

But here is a what if for you. In the region all a tourney, Valley was shooting in the high 70's to low 80's all threw the tourney from the freethrow line. If they had shot that at the state tourney, EC gets beat by 15 to 20 points.

Did you watch this game, or are you basing your statements on what others have said about it? If the two teams was to play 10 times, it is my opinion that Valley would win 7 to 8 of them.. Valley dominated EVERY part of the game except for the free throws. It wasnt a first quarter rush like was posted on here. Elliott made runs at Valley, they would cut the lead down to 2 or 3 points, then Valley open it back up again to 12-15 points. In my opinion as well as other opinions from both fans, and more than a few college coaches, Valley is the better team.

[TATE_64]

Knott County Central beat Shelby Valley head to head. So using this logic they should be ranked ahead of them, right?

No, because their best player was hurt...... So you voting for Elliott in front of Shelby doesn't make much sense..... You Probably rated Elliot alot higher than they are ranked, and Valley alot lower than they are ranked in order to make that much of difference...

And I am not from Shelby Valley just calling it like I see it....

[PC_You_Know]

I'm not from Elliott County or anywhere close to it. I have no connections or attachments to them.

If my opinion means "diddly squat" then why get so upset over it?

Do you believe that Shelby Valley would win every time they played Elliott County if they played say 5 or 10 games. I don't. I believe it would be 6-4 in favor of Elliott County if they played 10 times. These two teams are very close. Its not like I'm saying Shelby Valley is a bad team.

Lets here the next one.

This game was not as close as the score showed, as said before, If the game was 3 minutes shorter, Valley blew this one wide open.

[outdoorsman43]

This game was not as close as the score showed, as said before, If the game was 3 minutes shorter, Valley blew this one wide open.

If the game was 3 minutes longer, Elliott would have won.

[FBALL]

Dang you guys are ifing me to death.

BasketBallonlyfan,

I listened to the game in Richmond but did not see it in person. I have seen both teams live and I base my opinions on everything that I have seen and heard. Not on the opinions of anybody else or what someone else has said or how other people have them ranked. My statements about Justice having a bad game or being injured are more of a compliment to him than a slight. If he has an off game I don't think Shelby Valley's team is as well equiped to handle that as some of the other top teams are if their top players are not on their games.



Tate 64,

You should probably stop rolling your eyes because you aren't seeing things that clearly. Shelby Valley moved up in my rankings. Elliott County dropped in my rankings. I have no ties to or agendas for either team.



PC You Know,

Nothing I will write here is going to satisfy you so I'm not even going to try. The game was not 3 minutes shorter just like it was not 3 minutes longer. Shelby Valley won the game and went on to win the All A tournament. Job well done and congratulations to them.

[PC_You_Know]

Dang you guys are ifing me to death.

BasketBallonlyfan,

I listened to the game in Richmond but did not see it in person. I have seen both teams live and I base my opinions on everything that I have seen and heard. Not on the opinions of anybody else or what someone else has said or how other people have them ranked. My statements about Justice having a bad game or being injured are more of a compliment to him than a slight. If he has an off game I don't think Shelby Valley's team is as well equiped to handle that as some of the other top teams are if their top players are not on their games.



Tate 64,

You should probably stop rolling your eyes because you aren't seeing things that clearly. Shelby Valley moved up in my rankings. Elliott County dropped in my rankings. I have no ties to or agendas for either team.



PC You Know,

Nothing I will write here is going to satisfy you so I'm not even going to try. The game was not 3 minutes shorter just like it was not 3 minutes longer. Shelby Valley won the game and went on to win the All A tournament. Job well done and congratulations to them.

So you base your opinions on what you see? So I guess since you didn't see Valley beat Elliott, it doesn't play into how you evaluate Elliott being better than Valley, because if you'd actually seen it, you'd know Valley was better.

[FBALL]

So you base your opinions on what you see? So I guess since you didn't see Valley beat Elliott, it doesn't play into how you evaluate Elliott being better than Valley, because if you'd actually seen it, you'd know Valley was better.

Like I said, you are not going to be satisfied, no matter what.

[PC_You_Know]

Like I said, you are not going to be satisfied, no matter what.

LoL, I just took the words right out of your mouth, it didn't matter what you had to say to that, you were wrong any way you want to look at it, whether you "seen" this one or not.

[FBALL]

LoL, I just took the words right out of your mouth, it didn't matter what you had to say to that, you were wrong any way you want to look at it, whether you "seen" this one or not.

No, I'm quite happy with the opinions I have formed. You just have yet to come to terms with the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you.

If you want to debate the difference between Shelby Valley and Elliott County and discuss my basis for rating teams as I do feel free to do it in a pm. We have taken this thread about as far of course as it needs to go.

[PC_You_Know]

No, I'm quite happy with the opinions I have formed. You just have yet to come to terms with the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you.

If you want to debate the difference between Shelby Valley and Elliott County and discuss my basis for rating teams as I do feel free to do it in a pm. We have taken this thread about as far of course as it needs to go.

It doesn't matter if you agree or not, but there is NO basis to say Elliott is better, Elliott missed their 3's, Valley hit ZERO threes, and Valley also missed 11 straight free throws at the end, only for the sake of argumentation or being an absolute HOMER would someone still say Elliott is the better team. Elliott was the more fresh team, is the more experienced team, was supposed to have the better players, and has "more" talent than Shelby Valley. There was no home field advantage, this was a rematch of a heated game a few years ago. This was a shot at playing for a state title. Shelby Valley is the better team. I will not post about this again.

[TATE_64]

Dang you guys are ifing me to death.

BasketBallonlyfan,

I listened to the game in Richmond but did not see it in person. I have seen both teams live and I base my opinions on everything that I have seen and heard. Not on the opinions of anybody else or what someone else has said or how other people have them ranked. My statements about Justice having a bad game or being injured are more of a compliment to him than a slight. If he has an off game I don't think Shelby Valley's team is as well equiped to handle that as some of the other top teams are if their top players are not on their games.



Tate 64,

You should probably stop rolling your eyes because you aren't seeing things that clearly. Shelby Valley moved up in my rankings. Elliott County dropped in my rankings. I have no ties to or agendas for either team.



PC You Know,

Nothing I will write here is going to satisfy you so I'm not even going to try. The game was not 3 minutes shorter just like it was not 3 minutes longer. Shelby Valley won the game and went on to win the All A tournament. Job well done and congratulations to them.

I see just fine.... You sir are the one not seeing things clearly... Like others said, these are weekly rankings, and Valley is the better team right now ... Oh well I am done arguing about it....

[FBALL]

I see just fine.... You sir are the one not seeing things clearly... Like others said, these are weekly rankings, and Valley is the better team right now ... Oh well I am done arguing about it....

I'm seeing things just fine as well. I guess we just have different opinions.

[BasketBallonlyfan]

Just wondering, what game or games did you watch Valley play?

But your argument about how Valley isnt the same team without Justice really doesnt make sense. And belive it or not, they would not be the same team without Logan, Ashley, Taylor or Deven. Yes, without Justice, Elliott wins easy, just the same as if any other starter was gone. But without either of the Falkners, Elliott gets blown out of the gym in THIS game. EC and SV are pretty much the same team as far as game plans go. Both have two good guards, and their game is played off their guards. Elliott has two very good guards. But WATCHING the game and not just listening to it on the radio, Valley has two better guards. With Valley, Justice and Bryant feed off each other. Same as with the Falkners. They play so well together. They get the person they are guarding to make one little mistake, either a pass that is just a little to soft, or a little off the mark then boom, layup the other way. Same as with Elliott Co.

If there is another matchup this season in the sweet 16, Valley comes out with the win in that game too, even if they miss 24 freethrows in the 4th, but still get the win, are you still going to say Elliott is the better team after listening to it on the radio? You cant judge a team by what the radio announcers say. I listen to the game on the radio while I watch it. The announcers sometimes call it a little different than what is seen.

[BasketBallonlyfan]

Stats from the All A Classic website:

Elliott Co.
FGA 72
FGM 24
FG% 33%

Off. Reb. 4
Def. Reb 23
Tot Reb 27

FTA 13
FTM 10
FT% 76%

Assist 10
Steals 9
TO 19

Fouls 18

Shelby Valley

FGA 58
FGM 23
FG% 39%

FTA 22
FTM 9
FT% 40%

Assist 11
Steal 16
TO 17

Fouls 15

Valley wins every stat except for free throw shooting.

[More Cowbell]

It makes no difference if a player is with a team or not a loss is a loss in the record book was my point.I do think the outcome would have been different with EJ playing but he wasn't.
I like to watch Elliott play but they got beat by SV plain and simple no excuses. I want to see them play again because I don't think lighting will strike twice.

I agree, the record shows the game as a loss for Shelby Valley. And that is why computer ratings are not as accurate as a human poll. They only see a loss, not the extenuating circumstances.

My point is that in making rank lists, you look at how good a team really is, not just their won-loss record. If I know that a loss was partially due to the absence of a player, then I can account for that when I evaluate how good that team is. That is the beauty of a human poll.

[PC_You_Know]

It makes no difference if a player is with a team or not a loss is a loss in the record book was my point.I do think the outcome would have been different with EJ playing but he wasn't.
I like to watch Elliott play but they got beat by SV plain and simple no excuses. I want to see them play again because I don't think lighting will strike twice.

Most didn't thin it would strike the first time, so you, just like all the others, keep doubting Valley.

[More Cowbell]

Yes I think Justice makes a big difference for Shelby Valley. The fact that they are so dependent on one player is the main reason I believe Elliott County is a better team. If just gets in foul trouble or has an off night, what does Valley do then?

Sure losing either of the Faulkners or Ferguson would hurt Elliott County as well but I believe it is something they would be more prepared to overcome.

Just because we all don't agree on rankings doesn't make any one persons wrong. I respect every other persons opinion and do not call them out on it. I would expect the same courtesy in return.

First off, I did not "call you out" on anything. I may disagree with your opinion, but that doesn't mean I don't respect it. Like I have told others on here, disagreement does not equate to disrespect. A lot of people on here need to accept differing opinions without claiming that someone doesn't respect them. We've all got our own opinions on here.

Myself, I wouldn't rank SV lower than Elliott just because they are so dependent on Justice. He generally doesn't get into foul trouble, so the only way you will see him not playing is if he is hurt again. And if that was the case, Elliott is the much better team. But even if Justice is having an off-night shooting, he still contributes his leadership and defensive intensity. And that is why I give a lot less weight to any game SV lost where he did not play.

[EOE]

IF,IF,IF,IF,IF frogs had wings,,,,,they would mate with birds..