[Beetle01]

Since he has changed his stance on many policies, Ive heard figures anywhere from 150 to 270 times since the start of the primaries.

So those of you who voted Obama, what "Chamnge" do you expect to see? What is it you are looking for? What policies will make you mad if he backs out? What policies made you vote for him? Or did everyone just vote for him out of hate for Bush?

[thecavemaster]

I believe each American should have basic health coverage, whether they choose a one payer system or choose their own plan. I believe in progressive taxation. I believe dialogue and diplomacy, even with "enemies" is a necessary and vital aspect of foreign policy. I believe "drill, baby, drill" is not an energy policy, but rather a crude oil heroin fix, short sighted at best, irresponsible at worst. I believe, with Emerson, that "foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"... of course, policies evolve, get tweaked and the like as they move through different stages of evolution.

[Beetle01]

So basically it doesn't matter if he holds true to any of his promises, you give him a get out of jail free card?

[Beetle01]

Cavemaster, what policies made you decide on Obama.
List your top 5.

example:
1. National healthcare
2. No drilling, more money for alternate resources
3. Amnesty for illegals
4. No abortion limits
5. More welfare

Just put what policies you picked Obama for. Just 5 that should be easy enough.

[thecavemaster]

So basically it doesn't matter if he holds true to any of his promises, you give him a get out of jail free card?

If he doesn't advance on: a one payer system for those who choose it; a restoration of progressive taxation; an explosion of research on alternative energy and energy independence; a strong movement toward more active engagement with adversaries... these kinds of things... if he does not push these ideas forward, then, no the "get out of jail free" care does not apply. If Congress blocks these policies, or so changes them they no logner resemble Obama's, then that's a different story.

[Beetle01]

OKay so if he doesn't push those policies, and congress doesn't change them , though I expect he will be able to push about 80% of his policies through unchanged, will you vote for him again in 4 years?

[thecavemaster]

OKay so if he doesn't push those policies, and congress doesn't change them , though I expect he will be able to push about 80% of his policies through unchanged, will you vote for him again in 4 years?

If Obama abdicates what he campaigned on and goes off on some whole other policy tangent, I would be forced to reconsider in 2012.

[VHSL-helper]

the "change" I want to see is someone in the White House who can run things.

How much Katrina relief ice was taken to places like Strasburg, Va., put in cold storage for 2 years, then taken out to melt because it had "expired"?

$67 million worth, that's how much.

[Matman]

I believe each American should have basic health coverage, whether they choose a one payer system or choose their own plan. I believe in progressive taxation. I believe dialogue and diplomacy, even with "enemies" is a necessary and vital aspect of foreign policy. I believe "drill, baby, drill" is not an energy policy, but rather a crude oil heroin fix, short sighted at best, irresponsible at worst. I believe, with Emerson, that "foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"... of course, policies evolve, get tweaked and the like as they move through different stages of evolution.

Are you saying you believe in dialogue and diplomacy with "enemies" to include terrorsist groups?

I believe every American should have the right to purchace health care for themselves and their families. But i do not believe i should pay for Joe Schmoe down the streets just because he can't hold a job or didn't go to college or learn a skill but still made time to have 6 kids.

[Old School]

I believe each American should have basic health coverage, whether they choose a one payer system or choose their own plan. I believe in progressive taxation. I believe dialogue and diplomacy, even with "enemies" is a necessary and vital aspect of foreign policy. I believe "drill, baby, drill" is not an energy policy, but rather a crude oil heroin fix, short sighted at best, irresponsible at worst. I believe, with Emerson, that "foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"... of course, policies evolve, get tweaked and the like as they move through different stages of evolution.

I agree that drilling is not a long term solution, it is however a short term fix to help the U.S. in becoming energy independent which I think is a must. By drilling and producing as much oil as we can, we will reduce our dependency on foreign oil and allow us to help our own economy. Keep in mind during this time we must develop other energy sources, and as these sources are developed they can be brought on-line allowing us to decrease our use of oil, as you said we are addicted to oil, and in today's world our country and economy can not function without it.

There is no quick fix the the energy problem, some of the so called experts predict it will take 20-25 years to fully develop alternative energy, so it looks like we either need to "drill baby drill" or continue to buy 10 million barrels per day from others.

[thecavemaster]

Are you saying you believe in dialogue and diplomacy with "enemies" to include terrorsist groups?

I believe every American should have the right to purchace health care for themselves and their families. But i do not believe i should pay for Joe Schmoe down the streets just because he can't hold a job or didn't go to college or learn a skill but still made time to have 6 kids.

Terrorist groups are, most often, not nations, but factions. If Hamas is the controlling element of the government in Palestine, I think diplomatic relations have to be maintained, which doesn't mean cozy friendship. Your last sentiments (social darwinism) speak for themselves. Basically, "Joe Schmoe" has a name, often has a job, often takes the early train, often makes the bed others sleep in, mops the floors others walk on, cooks the food others eat.

[oneijoe]

I believe each American should have basic health coverage, whether they choose a one payer system or choose their own plan. I believe in progressive taxation. I believe dialogue and diplomacy, even with "enemies" is a necessary and vital aspect of foreign policy. I believe "drill, baby, drill" is not an energy policy, but rather a crude oil heroin fix, short sighted at best, irresponsible at worst. I believe, with Emerson, that "foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"... of course, policies evolve, get tweaked and the like as they move through different stages of evolution.

Do you also subscribe to O's opinion on strict progressive limits on carbon emissions for utilities ? If so...the coal-based economy in this part of the country will dry up because electric utilities won't be able to burn coal profitably. When that happens, VERY LITTLE will be left in EKY to allow origination of wealth.

"Drill baby drill" refers to more than searching for domestic sources of oil. It also refers to producing native NATURAL GAS. Fortunately for EKY, NG is almost as plentiful here as is coal.

A little dose of reality for you. It is NOT YET POSSIBLE to provide the electricity needs of this country using "renewable sources". While I agree we need to progress towards that goal long term (30-50 yrs), we can't lose sight of our needs in the immediate future (now - 30 yrs).

The U.S. has enough NG and coal reserves to supply this country's needs for more than 300 years. I can't understand why Obama is against using them (vs. foreign oil) until our energy needs can be met with nuclear, solar, and wind sources. Natural gas is 80% cleaner burning than oil. It makes no sense why he doesn't put it CENTER STAGE.

[oneijoe]

Are you saying you believe in dialogue and diplomacy with "enemies" to include terrorsist groups?

I believe every American should have the right to purchace health care for themselves and their families. But i do not believe i should pay for Joe Schmoe down the streets just because he can't hold a job or didn't go to college or learn a skill but still made time to have 6 kids.

Here, here !!!! I like you, Matman...

It's MY money, I EARNED it, and I WANT to KEEP it !!!


:Cheerlead

[oneijoe]

Your last sentiments (social darwinism) speak for themselves. Basically, "Joe Schmoe" has a name, often has a job, often takes the early train, often makes the bed others sleep in, mops the floors others walk on, cooks the food others eat.

Joe does and he gets a paycheck for doing those things. The market decides what "making the bed, mopping the floors, and cooking the food" is worth, salary wise.

"Joe Schmoe" knew his chosen life's work of being a maid, custodian, or cook were NOT high paying occupations. Joe made his own bed. I prefer NOT to pay for him to sleep in it.

[thecavemaster]

Joe does and he gets a paycheck for doing those things. The market decides what "making the bed, mopping the floors, and cooking the food" is worth, salary wise.

"Joe Schmoe" knew his chosen life's work of being a maid, custodian, or cook were NOT high paying occupations. Joe made his own bed. I prefer NOT to pay for him to sleep in it.

So you live in a world where everyone has the same capacities, the same capabilities, the same chances, the same heredity, the same environment, the same chance for personal response? If one such as jesus ever existed, he said, "To those whom much is given, much will be required, but to those whom little is given, little will be required." Does that sound like the world you believe in?

[Matman]

So you live in a world where everyone has the same capacities, the same capabilities, the same chances, the same heredity, the same environment, the same chance for personal response? If one such as jesus ever existed, he said, "To those whom much is given, much will be required, but to those whom little is given, little will be required." Does that sound like the world you believe in?

Yes i live in a world where everyone has been given the oppertunity for success. Well maybe not a world but deffinately a country where anyone who works hard, studies hard, and is determined can have the same amount of success. I came from one of those homes where everything was far from perfect. Mother, Father and sister all passed away. I didn't have money or support. I still managed to get a degree. Even after 9/11 i dropped out of college joined the army, spent 3 out of the last 6 years in iraq and still managed to have success in this life and finish my degree.

[oneijoe]

Yes i live in a world where everyone has been given the oppertunity for success. Well maybe not a world but deffinately a country where anyone who works hard, studies hard, and is determined can have the same amount of success. I came from one of those homes where everything was far from perfect. Mother, Father and sister all passed away. I didn't have money or support. I still managed to get a degree. Even after 9/11 i dropped out of college joined the army, spent 3 out of the last 6 years in iraq and still managed to have success in this life and finish my degree.

A most perfect rebuttal... :Thumbs:

[oneijoe]

So you live in a world where everyone has the same capacities, the same capabilities, the same chances, the same heredity, the same environment, the same chance for personal response? If one such as jesus ever existed, he said, "To those whom much is given, much will be required, but to those whom little is given, little will be required." Does that sound like the world you believe in?

In your invocation of Our Lord in your point (something I wouldn't DARE do), you obviously don't have the proper perspective. Almost ALL citizen's of the United States will be seen as people to "whom much is given".

In THIS country, there are precious few legitimate excuses for failing to provide for one's self and family.

Even being a maid, custodian, or cook can provide for the needs of a family. While one won't become wealthy doing this kind of work, it IS there for those with less ambition. Understand though, the plethora of these jobs here are not available worldwide.

[sherman14]

Yes i live in a world where everyone has been given the oppertunity for success. Well maybe not a world but deffinately a country where anyone who works hard, studies hard, and is determined can have the same amount of success. I came from one of those homes where everything was far from perfect. Mother, Father and sister all passed away. I didn't have money or support. I still managed to get a degree. Even after 9/11 i dropped out of college joined the army, spent 3 out of the last 6 years in iraq and still managed to have success in this life and finish my degree.

I agree 100%. And I thank you for putting your life on the line for our country.

[oneijoe]

Yes i live in a world where everyone has been given the oppertunity for success. Well maybe not a world but deffinately a country where anyone who works hard, studies hard, and is determined can have the same amount of success. I came from one of those homes where everything was far from perfect. Mother, Father and sister all passed away. I didn't have money or support. I still managed to get a degree. Even after 9/11 i dropped out of college joined the army, spent 3 out of the last 6 years in iraq and still managed to have success in this life and finish my degree.

We may butt heads in the football forum on occasion...

But please know, you have my utmost respect for how you've taken control of your own life's destiny, using NO excuses in your refusal to fail. And you have my gratitude for your service to our country.

:Thumbs:

[thecavemaster]

Yes i live in a world where everyone has been given the oppertunity for success. Well maybe not a world but deffinately a country where anyone who works hard, studies hard, and is determined can have the same amount of success. I came from one of those homes where everything was far from perfect. Mother, Father and sister all passed away. I didn't have money or support. I still managed to get a degree. Even after 9/11 i dropped out of college joined the army, spent 3 out of the last 6 years in iraq and still managed to have success in this life and finish my degree.

I commend you on your success. You are saying that that each and every person who works hard, is determined, and studies hard can have equal success? I can look out my window and see one white horse...but I can't conclude from that that all horses are white, the sample is not large enough and, therefore, non-representative.

[Beetle01]

I commend you on your success. You are saying that that each and every person who works hard, is determined, and studies hard can have equal success? I can look out my window and see one white horse...but I can't conclude from that that all horses are white, the sample is not large enough and, therefore, non-representative.

So you're saying there are people out there who work hard, study hard, and put forth all their effort, but yet never get anywhere? If so what is holding them back? Because I don't know anyone like that.

[thecavemaster]

So you're saying there are people out there who work hard, study hard, and put forth all their effort, but yet never get anywhere? If so what is holding them back? Because I don't know anyone like that.

I don't think it is your post, but another poster basically dissed the working poor, saying, in effect, that their low wages were their own fault for not improving themselves more, as each person has the same chance in America to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps and succeed." It's not that they don't get "anywhere" (whatever that means and however defined); they have families; they struggle month to month; they often have small homes. They also quite often lack adequate medical coverage. I know many people like this and find blaming them for economic hardship ridiculous, self-serving, and ill-considered.

[oneijoe]

I commend you on your success. You are saying that that each and every person who works hard, is determined, and studies hard can have equal success? I can look out my window and see one white horse...but I can't conclude from that that all horses are white, the sample is not large enough and, therefore, non-representative.

"Equal" success ?!? When did THAT become your point ?

Success = providing for self and family.

It does NOT mean everyone gets the same. That has more to do with choices taken in vocation/education/training. A doctor that earns $200,000 could be considered successful, but then, so could a coal miner earning $75,000. In this great country of ours ambition, work ethic and to a lesser extent, intelligence are the primary determiners of ultimate success, not lack of available opportunity.

Only in a socialist/communist society is the aim to make ALL citizens equals, both in class and wealth. It's a beautiful idea, but it just doesn't work because there's no incentive for doing more/working harder than everyone else. Members of society will do what's required (by governement mandated quota), but NO MORE. Communist/socialist systems are anathema to human nature.

[Beetle01]

I don't think it is your post, but another poster basically dissed the working poor, saying, in effect, that their low wages were their own fault for not improving themselves more, as each person has the same chance in America to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps and succeed." It's not that they don't get "anywhere" (whatever that means and however defined); they have families; they struggle month to month; they often have small homes. They also quite often lack adequate medical coverage. I know many people like this and find blaming them for economic hardship ridiculous, self-serving, and ill-considered.

I don't think anyone here is against people bettering themselves. However, most of these people put themselves in that situation. They didn't do much in school growing up, goofing around. Then they don't attend any type of college. They get stuck in some dead end job. Don't try and goto school now. I know for a fact anyone making under 20k a year can goto school for free. I only make 19k a year at my current job, and I am finally old enough to file for FASFA on my own without including my parents, and I get everything covered. Even a little more for spending money. Not counting if I wanted to take out loans, I wouldn't veen have to work right now. I work 7-3 M-F. I goto school T-Th 3:30-10.

It sucks, but I'm not asking for handouts. If FASFA wasn't around I would take out loans, but since it is, might as well put it to good use.

Of course I could quit everything, and blame rich white people for my downfall.

[thecavemaster]

"Equal" success ?!? When did THAT become your point ?

Success = providing for self and family.

It does NOT mean everyone gets the same. That has more to do with choices taken in vocation/education/training. A doctor that earns $200,000 could be considered successful, but then, so could a coal miner earning $75,000. In this great country of ours ambition, work ethic and to a lesser extent, intelligence are the primary determiners of ultimate success, not lack of available opportunity.

Only in a socialist/communist society is the aim to make ALL citizens equals, both in class and wealth. It's a beautiful idea, but it just doesn't work because there's no incentive for doing more/working harder than everyone else. Members of society will do what's required (by governement mandated quota), but NO MORE. Communist/socialist systems are anathema to human nature.

Consider Sweden. I am not particularly concerned that surgeons make lots of money, eat at fine restaurants and dress in "fine" clothes. However, I know many people who aspire to provide well for their families, work very hard, have above average intelligence and still struggle financially because the flow of money and policies are slanted toward wealth and count on human avarice ("more, more, more") to drive the more wealth for the wealthy translates into blessing for the middle and rich.

[Beetle01]

Consider Sweden. I am not particularly concerned that surgeons make lots of money, eat at fine restaurants and dress in "fine" clothes. However, I know many people who aspire to provide well for their families, work very hard, have above average intelligence and still struggle financially because the flow of money and policies are slanted toward wealth and count on human avarice ("more, more, more") to drive the more wealth for the wealthy translates into blessing for the middle and rich.

Youll be glad that surgeon is well paid if you ever requiry an emergency surgery from one to save your life. Lets face it most people who are smart enough and bright enough to become one of the well paid surgeons, doctors, or lawyers are usually the smartest. Not always, but most of the time. They work hard, goto school for years and years to learn their profession and become skilled at it. None of which they would have done if they could have got a job at the local Wendy's making the same wage.

Who are these people and what do they do? If they are smart enough to become surgeosn themselves, then why are they not? I know if I thought I was smart enough to become a surgeon I would apply for Med School right now. I don't think I have the brains or the drive to goto school for that long. So I'm taking a shorter route, and I will not hold it against anyone of them who make more than me, because I know that I had the chance to do it if I wanted to. Nor would I even want that responsibility most of them have.

[thecavemaster]

Youll be glad that surgeon is well paid if you ever requiry an emergency surgery from one to save your life. Lets face it most people who are smart enough and bright enough to become one of the well paid surgeons, doctors, or lawyers are usually the smartest. Not always, but most of the time. They work hard, goto school for years and years to learn their profession and become skilled at it. None of which they would have done if they could have got a job at the local Wendy's making the same wage.

Who are these people and what do they do? If they are smart enough to become surgeosn themselves, then why are they not? I know if I thought I was smart enough to become a surgeon I would apply for Med School right now. I don't think I have the brains or the drive to goto school for that long. So I'm taking a shorter route, and I will not hold it against anyone of them who make more than me, because I know that I had the chance to do it if I wanted to. Nor would I even want that responsibility most of them have.

I would hope a surgeon is as licensed and competent as a mechanic. Still, I do not begrudge a surgeon his or her money. I do not expect everyone to make the same money. Some have more opportunity than others for lots of reasons, personal and structural and system. You, it seems to me, are forgetting that each of us is a complex mixture of heredity and environment and personal response. You are also attacking positions I do not hold, altering and adjusting my points to suit your responses.

[Beetle01]

I would hope a surgeon is as licensed and competent as a mechanic. Still, I do not begrudge a surgeon his or her money. I do not expect everyone to make the same money. Some have more opportunity than others for lots of reasons, personal and structural and system. You, it seems to me, are forgetting that each of us is a complex mixture of heredity and environment and personal response. You are also attacking positions I do not hold, altering and adjusting my points to suit your responses.

So you're saying that the surgeon who went to school for years and years, worked hsi butt off, and studied for hours every night. Should pay more of the money he earns to the mechanic because the mechanic didn't do those things. While he may be a good mechanic, in my eyes you should defintely make more money working on people than you do working on cars. Especially since there is very little schooling needed to become a mechanic, as compared to a doctor. If the mechanic is unhappy, he should become a doctor.

There's no excuses for background, or parents, or where you're from. I know fo people who come from less than nothing who became doctors because they sacrificed and worked hard to get where they are.

They shouldn't be paying the way for people who settled for less.

[oneijoe]

...You, it seems to me, are forgetting that each of us is a complex mixture of heredity and environment and personal response. ....

heredity: Other than inherited I.Q., how does that factor into this ? If there's a TRUE physical/mental disability, then sure, that's why there's a welfare safety net.

environment: No one is restricted from moving to where better paying jobs are.

personal response: Huh ? If this is referring to how money doesn't go far enough after taking a mortgage, marrying, and starting a family, refer to my "made his own bed" comment earlier in the thread.