[Stardust]

Phil Jackson is releasing a 339-page memoir on Tuesday, titled “Eleven Rings: The Soul of Success.” Excerpts from the book have been released by the Los Angeles Times, which shed light on Jackson’s view of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.

Jackson has been tight lipped throughout his career when questions of which player was better arose. In the memoir, Jackson analyzes the strengths, weaknesses, and differences of both players …
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/05/phil-jac...be-debate/
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[honestjchsfan]

It's considered a SIN to say Jordan was not the greatest player of all-time. IMO Jordan was better than Kobe. I also think when you add in his College career Kareem Abdul-Jabber probably had a better career than both. His college team went 88-2 and won 3 NCAA titles, would have won 4 if freshmen were allowed to play back them. UK fans saw first hand with Davis that scoring points is not the only way to impact the outcome of a basketball game. People forget that when Kareem retired he was the NBA all-time leader in blocked shots and defensive rebounds. Kareem won 6 titles and 6 MVP awards too! Most people only remember the OLD Kareem at the end of his career with the Lakers but in his Prime he could run the floor and was athletic and jumped very well, add in the fact that he is 7 feet 2 inch tall. Jordan on the other hand played on one NCAA title team but couldn't even when the ACC the next 2 years, and check out the guys he played with!! People forget that early in his Careen the Jordan and the Bull were swept back to back years by the Celtics and at one point were 0-8 in the play-off. IMO with both in there prime, I don't Jordan could have beat Kareem in a one on one Match-up, say the best of 7 games. IMO Kareem could play off of MJ and force him to shoot Jump shots but there was no way on Gods green Earth that MJ could have stopped the SKYHOOK.

[Stardust]

I give the edge to Jordan or Kobe over Kareem. And that is not a slam against Kareem! Jordan changed the game FOREVER! Jordan made basketball an end-to-end game. Kareem or Wilt ALWAYS had to have someone deliver them the basketball. They could never start at the perimeter and create a shot. They played in a nera where centers posted, were fed, and then made 1 or two moves. Jordan (along with Bird, Magic, and several others slightly before Jordan's era) made creating your own offense the most valuable part of the came. Kareem could NOT score his 30+ per game without Lucious Allen at UCLA, Oscar Robertson in Milwaukee, or Magic in LA! Thus, you can't give all the judo's to Kareem without acknowledging the great Point Guards that made his scoring feats possible. Again, I am not knocking Kareem, prior to Jordan, he was 2nd only to Dr. J as my favorite player. But trying to compare Kareem to Oscar Robertson, MJ or Kobe is not really possible unless you can wrap all five positions on the floor, and those three were able to play 3 and even four or those positions! Kareem, Center only!

Kareem was ahead of his time! Just like Wilt was, just like, just like Magic was and just like MJ was. Let's not even try to compare a Lew Alcindor led team 1971 team to a 1993 MJ team. Look it up on youtube. That was an era when guys could only dribble with one hand. That alone means you cannot transport a team up in time and reasonably think that team could compete in a more advanced day.

Good argument, but my money is MJ as the greatest and most influential player of the game of basketball and the way it is played today!

[honestjchsfan]

Yes , its hard to compare a Center to a Guard. My point is not that Kareem was better than MJ but rather Kareem influenced the out come of more of his teams victories when you figure in his College career. IMO many aspects of MJ's game have been hyped up. When you compare MJ's stats to Larry Birds one fact that always gets over looked is the fact the MJ shot over 4000 more free throws than Bird. This clearly shows that the NBA and it's officiating had MJ's back! I also think that MJ's defensive skills are hyped. MJ and Bird both averaged .8 blocks per game, MJ averaged 2.3 steal per game to Birds 1.7. I don't ever remember and can't find any video that shows MJ ever making a defensive play to win the Bulls a key game. Bird on the other hand made the big steal vs Detroit in 87' and the famous steal to ice the game vs Philly.

[honestjchsfan]

[RunItUpTheGut]

IMHO, its never really even been close.

I guess Phil proved that.

[Spud6]

I was reading on ESPN about how Kobe should be hurt by this and that Phil was throwing him under the bus and it really irritated me. The Kobe and MJ debate over which is better is a question that has been asked since Kobe got his fourth ring or maybe before. And Phil finally answered them, the man that everyone looks up to and respects as a knowledgeable person about the game of basketball. So to me, this was not a shot at Kobe, but simply an opinion about a question that everyone loves to debate.

[Aslan]

So Phil had to write a book, make millions more, just to state the obvious?
Everybody knows Jordan is the greatest ever, there's nothing to debate.

[honestjchsfan]

So Phil had to write a book, make millions more, just to state the obvious?
Everybody knows Jordan is the greatest ever, there's nothing to debate.

I disagree, so many people are quick to write MJ in as the greatest Basketball player of all-time. IMO you have to class each player in TEAM sports by there position. Take football for example; WHO WAS the greatest football player of all-time??? Many people would say Jim Brown; how do you think Jim Brown would do playing left tackle with REGGIE WHITE lined up as defensive end? Basketball is a team sport the same as football so IMO it is not fair to compare MJ to WILT of Kareem. StarDust points out how MJ changed the gameand IMO MJ's style of play has hurt basketball! So many kids want dunk and fly like Mike and do there fancy crossover moves, only passing you see some of these young player do is the famous MJ "BAILOUT" pass that is their last option on there list.

[Aslan]

MJ hurt the game of basketball? He took the sport to heights it's never seen before and may never see again. I'm not a Jordan fan, but the debate ends with him.

[honestjchsfan]

MJ hurt the game of basketball? He took the sport to heights it's never seen before and may never see again. I'm not a Jordan fan, but the debate ends with him.

I watched MJ from the time that he was in college until he retired, and what I saw was totally different than what you must have watched. In college MJ's last 2 years he played on a loaded team that couldn't win the ACC, then when he arrived to the NBA his teams were getting swept in the playoffs by Boston, and at one point lost 16 in row to Celtics. Then in the 88 and 89 the NBA added 4 teams and this expansion reduced the talent level in the NBA. So in 1990 (20) players who wouldn't have been starters in the NBA suddenly were! The Laker and Celtics teams that battled for NBA titles in the 1980's were the best and most complete Basketball teams that have played on this planet period BAR NONE! I bet you are one of those guys that think today's NBA is better. The 80's were loaded with 7ft guys who had low post scoring SKILLS and those skills forced other teams double to defend the post. Todays game is dribble, dribble, dribble wear a fancy head band and let ESPN blow you UP to be the next MJ.

[honestjchsfan]

I think MJ was a better player than Kobe but it is much closer than people think. Here is one point I will make about Kobe. Kobe has been on 5 NBA title winning teams, MJ on 6 , on ALL 6 of MJs title winning teams he had at least one other NBA Hall of famer on his team, that being Pippen on the first 3 and both Pippen and Rodman on the 2nd three. Kobe had Shaq on the first 3 but his last 2 titles there were ZERO future Hall of Famers on the team beside himself. MY point being before Pippen all the Jordan Jockers cried about how MJ didn't have any help, but nobody gives Kobe any Credit for winning 2 titles with a bunch of role players!

[KHSAA12]

^If Phil Jackson said MJ was better and all these 80 players (Magic, Bird, etc.) say Jordan was the best to play the game, then end of discussion. Jordan changed the game and that's just the way it is. He is unblemished in the NBA Finals. Six for six and all six finals mvps along with 5 season mvps. Only lebron is on the path to contest all hardware of mj. Yes Kobe has five rings, but just 2 finals mvps and 1 regular season mvp over a 17 year career. And both have lost in the finals twice. And Pau Gasol will be in the hall of fame when its all said and done imo. And without Pau even as a role player the Lakers dont make that run. But just to me it cant be argued if the greats say hes the greatest.

[RunItUpTheGut]

I think MJ was a better player than Kobe but it is much closer than people think. Here is one point I will make about Kobe. Kobe has been on 5 NBA title winning teams, MJ on 6 , on ALL 6 of MJs title winning teams he had at least one other NBA Hall of famer on his team, that being Pippen on the first 3 and both Pippen and Rodman on the 2nd three. Kobe had Shaq on the first 3 but his last 2 titles there were ZERO future Hall of Famers on the team beside himself. MY point being before Pippen all the Jordan Jockers cried about how MJ didn't have any help, but nobody gives Kobe any Credit for winning 2 titles with a bunch of role players!

Do you not think Derek Fisher and Pau Gasol will be hall of famers?

[honestjchsfan]

Do you not think Derek Fisher and Pau Gasol will be hall of famers?

Not a snowballs Chance

[honestjchsfan]

^If Phil Jackson said MJ was better and all these 80 players (Magic, Bird, etc.) say Jordan was the best to play the game, then end of discussion. Jordan changed the game and that's just the way it is. He is unblemished in the NBA Finals. Six for six and all six finals mvps along with 5 season mvps. Only lebron is on the path to contest all hardware of mj. Yes Kobe has five rings, but just 2 finals mvps and 1 regular season mvp over a 17 year career. And both have lost in the finals twice. And Pau Gasol will be in the hall of fame when its all said and done imo. And without Pau even as a role player the Lakers dont make that run. But just to me it cant be argued if the greats say hes the greatest.

I really feel that if Larry Bird had been black he would have a lot more of the great players from the past saying he was the greatest player of All-time. I am not and never will be a "Jordan Jocker"! First of all I am smart enough to know when the "FIX" is in! Larry Bird played in 897 NBA games, MJ played in 1072 NBA games, Larry Bird had 4471 FTA, MJ had 8772 FTA so MJ shot 4301 more FTs than Larry Bird. Kareem played 488 more games than MJ but only had 532 more FTA! COME ON! Its not like Kareem never touched the ball, he is the NBA all-time leader in career points! In 87-88 Clyde Drexler a 2 Guard from MJ era averaged 27 points a game and had 587 FTA, MJ that same year had 860 FTA , that is that is 273 more FTA for MJ. COME ON GUYS learn when you been scammed. Don't pay attention to those jokers on ESPN! NIKE pays MOST OF THERE BILLS TOO!

[honestjchsfan]

Come ON GUYS MJ played in 175 more games than Larry Bird but shoots 4301 more FTs, Kareem plays in 488 more games than MJ but has only has 532 more FTA!!!!!!!!! COME ON! Lets not forget that Kareem scored over 6000 more points in his career than MJ, so we see who was really best at putting the ball in the bucket! Clyde Drexler played in 14 more NBA regular season games than MJ but MJ shot 2810 more FTs. ADD it up guys, its not hard to figure!

[OffTheHook]

Dr. J was high flyin long before MJ !

So MJ didn't change the game.

It was already changing.

[Aslan]

Come ON GUYS MJ played in 175 more games than Larry Bird but shoots 4301 more FTs, Kareem plays in 488 more games than MJ but has only has 532 more FTA!!!!!!!!! COME ON! Lets not forget that Kareem scored over 6000 more points in his career than MJ, so we see who was really best at putting the ball in the bucket! Clyde Drexler played in 14 more NBA regular season games than MJ but MJ shot 2810 more FTs. ADD it up guys, its not hard to figure!

Jordan would've CRUSHED the scoring record had he not retired in his prime and again later in his 30s when he was still averaging 30ppg.

[Aslan]

^If Phil Jackson said MJ was better and all these 80 players (Magic, Bird, etc.) say Jordan was the best to play the game, then end of discussion. Jordan changed the game and that's just the way it is. He is unblemished in the NBA Finals. Six for six and all six finals mvps along with 5 season mvps. Only lebron is on the path to contest all hardware of mj. Yes Kobe has five rings, but just 2 finals mvps and 1 regular season mvp over a 17 year career. And both have lost in the finals twice. And Pau Gasol will be in the hall of fame when its all said and done imo. And without Pau even as a role player the Lakers dont make that run. But just to me it cant be argued if the greats say hes the greatest.

Well, without Pippen MJ don't win six rings. Lebron don't win one without Wade. Magic don't win five without Kareem. Every great players needs other players to compliment them.
Pau's definitely a Hall of Famer, one of the best players to ever come out of Europe. He's not a first ballot famer like Wade though. Pau is a really good player that was never great.
And by the by, Kobe should have 3 MVPs. Nash robbed him of two. Kobe got a team to the playoffs whose second best player was Lamar Odom. Third best player...Kwame Brown? lol

[Aslan]

Do you not think Derek Fisher and Pau Gasol will be hall of famers?

Not Fish, he's a glorified role player who's had the opportunity to play alongside several good-great players(Kobe, Shaq, Durant, Westbrook, Pau).

[Stardust]

^ Robert Horry as well

[CraftCreeker]

I wish we could keep this thread a Lebron free zone.

[Stardust]

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[honestjchsfan]

Jordan would've CRUSHED the scoring record had he not retired in his prime and again later in his 30s when he was still averaging 30ppg.

If Kareem would have got the same whistle that MJ got he would of shot 7000 to 8000 more Free throws and would made about 75% of them.

[honestjchsfan]

Dr. J was high flyin long before MJ !

So MJ didn't change the game.

It was already changing.

Doc played in close to 200 more NBA games than MJ but MJ still shot over 700 more free throws for his career. IT is impossible for someone to get the number of foul CALLS that MJ got and everything be on the up & up! DR was the man in the NBA at one time the #1 guy but didn't get the calls MJ got! Anytime MJ got the ball in the post and went right and shot the fade-away, he traveled almost every time but it was never CALLED!

[honestjchsfan]

I wish we could keep this thread a Lebron free zone.

My problem with Lebron is that he has the body of a Super Hero and can run and jump with the greatest in NBA history but he doesn't have the heart and guts to get 10 rebounds a game! Larry Bird played in era of great 7 footers and against great rebounders like Barkley and Rodman but somehow someway BIRD STILL AVERAGED 10 Rebounds a game for his Career!

[RunItUpTheGut]

Not a snowballs Chance

Fisher may be iffy, but your crazy if you think Gasol wont be in the HOF someday.

[honestjchsfan]

Kareem played 16435 more NBA game minutes in his career than MJ did but somehow by the grace of the basketball gods the NBA All-time leader in points scored shoots just 532 more FREE THROWS! ANYBODY can see something is not right about that!

[honestjchsfan]

Fisher may be iffy, but your crazy if you think Gasol wont be in the HOF someday.

If Gasol makes it in it will surprise me.