[cherokee]

No buddy, I was telling him that the CJ calls coaches of the kids who makes first team to get stats and quotes. Read things more thoroughly next time. He said there should be some stats on the lineman. They put in there what they receive.

Never saw the term "first team" mentioned in either post that i was responding to so "thoroughly" becomes a key word sense the qb toussaints was talking about being left out was not even considered all state or HM, in the post . I was refering to some of the HM's information not being correct. Nevertheless my point was not to put you on the spot, but show how the CJ credibility had been damaged by many viewers of this site by this publication.

[toussaints]

I am not disputing any of this, but the coaches are called and asked to give stats and info. I don't fault the CJ at all.

but still, the CJ is capable of finding something that showed the kid is worthy of the spot.

For example, CJ 3rd Team offensive lineman William Currie was a key member of an offensive line that helped Spencer County average over 320 rushing yards per game this season. It took me 5 minutes to look up the info I needed for that.

I look at the coach's take on Bivin, and I wonder if that's all the journalist asked about him. Poke the bear a little bit, make the coach show him off.

[BoondockSaint]

That is a ridiculous comment. Those kids that are on that team earned their spot. For you to diminish their accomplishments by saying this team isn't worthy is low class. There are kids on the CJ team that should have been on AP team but because the media wants access to the "big time" programs their kids get all the votes. It is a shame that coaches refuse to participate. Rural schools get the shaft in these polls.

Take it however you wish but this is the most ridiculous all-state list I've seen and I've been following the selections for over 20 years.

To be honest, I don't care what you or anybody else thinks about my opinion.

[Thrillex]

I wonder if Jody Demling leaving the CJ has anything to do with this? I thought he was pretty good at what he did.

[jackbenimble]

Take it however you wish but this is the most ridiculous all-state list I've seen and I've been following the selections for over 20 years.

To be honest, I don't care what you or anybody else thinks about my opinion.

Why don't somebody on here make us one that gets it right.You would have to have watched a lot of games to be able to do this.

[toussaints]

^ give me a template and I'll do one. how many lineman, running backs, wide receivers, tight ends, linebackers, defensive backs per team

[jackbenimble]

^ give me a template and I'll do one. how many lineman, running backs, wide receivers, tight ends, linebackers, defensive backs per team

Offense:
5-lineman/2-running backs/3-wide receivers/1-quarterback/1 kicker
Defense
4 down lineman-include defensive ends/3 line backers/4 defensive backs-safetys/1 punter

[toussaints]

i'll have one done by tomorrow

[groundattack]

There are always kids left off the list. I felt like I knew one kid that should have been on the AP team but he was no where to be found. I didn't feel the need to put down other players who made the team in order to promote a player. Just because a kid plays on a championship team should not influence how good an individual player is viewed.

[tradition]

Congrats to all those that made the team. It is always an honor to be named to any All State Team. Especially a big congrats to Mitch Dee of Highlands.


However, I really don't get a poll that gets nominations from coaches. Of course they are going to toot their horn for their players and never or rarely mention a player from another team. Sure you have some great coaches out there that recognized talent and will give players from other teams the props they deserve, but most, not all , hold grudges against those teams because they probably beat the pants off of them.

It is what it is people. There are good players on bad teams. They look great because they are playing against teams that are nothing and they are standouts on their team because their team as a whole is not that great.

Then you have players from teams like Trinity, Bowling Green, Lexington Cathlic, Highlands, Mayfield, Newport Cathlic, and Cov. Cath., to name a few, that are playing good if not great teams and their are many outstanding players on that team. Those are the players that deserve to be mentioned in any and all state polls in my opinion.

[MeadePride]

How did the kid from Scott Co get first team punter over the Meade kid? Meade kid averaged over 42 yards per punt with 16 inside the twenty. Where's the love?

[washed up]

What should the scorecard look like when selecting an all state player? We all complain about the process, so why can't we help. I suggest coming up with a scorecard of some sort with the defining categories having assigned values. I will begin the brainstorming here and everyone help me with this. When finished we can submit it to the AP and CJ and get their input. I think this will be fun. I think that certain stats should be used for both offense and defense. passing, rushing, receiving yards and tackles, forced to's, and recovered to's for example we should take these numbers and and filter them through a strength of schedule measurement to try and make these values apples to apples. I also think that a players ability to play at the next level should matter. This will be difficult because a kid shouldn't always choose the biggest school that offers, it may not be the right fit. Something to work on. What else? I am anxious to hear.

[ekff]

Glad to see Jordan Olinger (Hazard) - 1st Team

Congrats to all the players

[Bluegrasscard]

Congrats to all those that made the teams and Honorable mention list. Well deserved.

No one gets here without a lot of hard work that impresses coaches.


The CJ does need to take to steps to avoid obvious and glaring omissions given this is the broadest and deepest honor list for the entire state. With three full teams and a lot of HMs there is no excuse for completely omitting top players.

The examples I would use are the quarterbacks from Highlands and Frankfort.

McCoy was dual threat with lots of stats both passing and running and a very impressive overall efficiency rating (182). Over 20 TDs each in both rushing and passing categories and lead the team in rushing overall. I do not care if a single coach did not wright down this name - this omission was glaring.

Hawkins from Fankfort averaged over 200 yards a game passing, over 20 TD passes, averaged over 20 yards a completion and had an efficiency rating of a very impressive 208.

I know of at least 2 other QBs who had efficiency ratings of over 200. And 1 of them was the only QB I found with a higher yards per completion than Hawkins. At least they are on the HM list for QBs.

You can argue 1st, 2nd, 3rd, HM rankings all day long. I am not suggesting these 2 players displace anyone on the top teams at all. But to leave them completely out of the list with the number of players named as HM in addition to the 3 teams? With this broad and deep of a honor roll? Very bad.

The CJ needs to evaluate how it does this. Going solely off the coaches input when less than half the coaches provide input looks to be a problem.

Chasing down coaches for input can be hard. That is for sure. Most coaches are just flooded with emails every day. Getting coaches to respond to emails can be hard - I know from experience. Certainly a lot of work went into this. But it has some glaring omissions that indicate there is a problem with their method. At least the part to ensure no one obvious is overlooked for this honor list.

Again, congrats to all those named - well deserved. Keep up the work.

[thsrocks]

it's the paper's job to encourage coaches to vote, it's not part of any coaches job description. a coaches job is simple, to coach your team on and off the field. coaches will vote for guys from their area, because they see those guys play and have easy access to follow them. it actually takes some credibility out of it because you get all these votes, and other than count them, the journalist doesn't know what to do with them. some coaches are also extremely biased. im not a highlands fan, but leaving donovan mccoy off any of the QB spots is ridiculous.

my post earlier wasn't a complaint, but an observation. and by no means am i saying the kids on there don't deserve their spot. however, give us a stat about hunter bivin from apollo. a highly recruited lineman shouldn't be the sole reason a guy makes the team. what did the offense do behind him? how many sacks did he give up? if a paper wants to do an all state team, then they have to do some research on these guys. i work at a paper, i know the CJ has the resources and money to do that.

The AP named Sam Robey to their all-state squad when he was a sophomore! I believe name recognition might have played a huge role in this poll. Again, the C-J has been conducting this since 1917. Several coaches drove to Louisville and discussed the players in depth. 110 voted.

[toussaints]

rocks, im not saying the CJ all state team has always been a joke. im saying this year, it didn't seem like the CJ tried to put a good one together. it looked like only the coaches worked on this one, the writers didn't put that much excitement into their own work. The AP is cut and dry, it's based soley on votes. The CJ was not only by vote, but the journalist showed how much effort they put into it. this year, not so much.

[Allin]

The coaches need to vote. Less than half of the head coaches submitted their ballot this season. Please encourage your coach to participate. Someone explain this to the Bluegrass Preps people. I have no complaints since three Shamrocks earned first team honors. The Courier Journal only counts the votes submitted. They do not vote in this one. Frakes only votes in the AP. The C-J has been doing this since 1917!!!!inglepar

In that less than half the head coaches even bothered to submit a ballot is disappointing. You seem to know a lot about the inner-workings of the C-J process, my questions for you:

1. Does the C-J have a process to factor out potential "block-voting" regionally - whether it be from Fayette County, Jefferson County, NKY, etc, especially given the low participation?

2. Would you agree more needs to be done to increase coaches participation rather than "encouragement", why not just call it the Kentucky Coaches Football Team kind of like USA Today has the Coaches Polls - then the coaches "own" it right?

It is interesting to see how the C-J coaches ballots stack-up against those that evaluate performance at Scout.com or Rivals.com. I personally think Jacob Hyde is one of the best in-state players, that he only earned HM on the C-J team is disappointing to me. This is how Scout.com ranks what they see as the 1-10 in-state players and then again on a national ranking level:

Kentucky 2013 Scout.com Rankings:

1. James Quick WR Trinity 5-Star #2 National WR
2. Jason Hatcher DE Trinity 4-Star #3 National DE
3. Kyle Bolin QB Lex Catholic 4-Star #14 National QB
4. Hunter Bivin OT Apollo 4-Star #15 National OT
5. Ryan White CB Trinity 4-Star #18 National CB
6. Dalyn Dawkins RB Trinity 4-Star #33 National RB
7. Joey Bloomfield OT Ballard 3-Star #50 National OT
8. Ryan Timmons WR Franklin Co 3-Star #58 National WR
9. Jacob Hyde DT Clay Co 3-Star #63 National DT
10. Logan Woodside QB Franklin Co 3-Star #71 National QB

[E's Army]

I have questions about the validity of the CJ's selection process. How did a team that went 2-9 in Class A football have 5 kids get honorable mention all state. 3 of those players were on the defensive side of the ball yet they gave up 416 points.

[E's Army]

A team that beat the above team by 48 points and went 14-1 on their way to a runner up finish in class A only had 1 player get honorable mention including none of their running backs who all ran for over 1000 yards. The CJ system might be broke.

[E's Army]

Coach Scroggins should truly be the coach of the year. He won another state championship without a player worthy of honorable mention in his hometown newspaper.

[thsrocks]

Congrats to all those that made the team. It is always an honor to be named to any All State Team. Especially a big congrats to Mitch Dee of Highlands.


However, I really don't get a poll that gets nominations from coaches. Of course they are going to toot their horn for their players and never or rarely mention a player from another team. Sure you have some great coaches out there that recognized talent and will give players from other teams the props they deserve, but most, not all , hold grudges against those teams because they probably beat the pants off of them.

It is what it is people. There are good players on bad teams. They look great because they are playing against teams that are nothing and they are standouts on their team because their team as a whole is not that great.

Then you have players from teams like Trinity, Bowling Green, Lexington Cathlic, Highlands, Mayfield, Newport Cathlic, and Cov. Cath., to name a few, that are playing good if not great teams and their are many outstanding players on that team. Those are the players that deserve to be mentioned in any and all state polls in my opinion.

I received confirmation from the C-J that coaches are NOT allowed to vote for their own players. Again, this is the oldest all-state team poll in Kentucky. You cannot make coaches participate. :igiveup:

[Allin]

I received confirmation from the C-J that coaches are NOT allowed to vote for their own players. Again, this is the oldest all-state team poll in Kentucky. You cannot make coaches participate. :igiveup:

Not sure what oldest has got to do with this poll being relevant, my question is it reliably a 100% coaches team? There are a lot of rumors that it was not for 2012.

THSROCKS can you confirm with your sources at the C-J whether their writers really stepped in and adjusted the team after the 110 ballots were counted? Was James Quick on the coaches ballot 3rd team and then moved up to 1st team? What about other adjustments - were players really moved around? I hope that was not the case.

It is either the coaches team or it isn't. Please ask your sources at the C-J, and post an update.

[cksportsfan]

Not sure what oldest has got to do with this poll being relevant, my question is it reliably a 100% coaches team? There are a lot of rumors that it was not for 2012.

THSROCKS can you confirm with your sources at the C-J whether their writers really stepped in and adjusted the team after the 110 ballots were counted? Was James Quick on the coaches ballot 3rd team and then moved up to 1st team? What about other adjustments - were players really moved around? I hope that was not the case.

It is either the coaches team or it isn't. Please ask your sources at the C-J, and post an update.

It IS the coaches' team. The C-J tallies the votes, but does NOT move players around between teams, knock them off teams, etc.

If someone says they heard differently, I'm sure we ALL would love for someone to produce proof (scan or take photo of fax, letter, email). Save the email and attach it.

FWIW, plenty of people feel the Class of the Commonwealth (22 seniors selected by a Lexington Herald-Leader panel) or the Associated Press team (picked by media across the state with a hard-core voting method; for example, you vote for two QBs TOTAL (which means Beasley, Bir, Bolin, Guhy, Hawkins, McCoy, Woodside, Wright) only have a 25 percent chance of making the team with the rest of the state EXCLUDED) were better collections of players.

[left tacckel #65]

Shameful some people The CJ is a highly respected institution of Ky journalism and all the coaches that vote on the kids do so with the utmost respect for there sport. All the kids that made the list deserve our respect.....

[Football1]

Congrats to Knox Central brothers Jeffrey and Hayden Canady for making the list. Jeffery has offers to Air Force, EKU, and Wofford among others. His younger brother is only a soph and is already one of the best LB's in the area. We appreciate both these young men for their hard work on and off the field.

[gamemaster]

congrats to all who were selected!