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09-18-2011, 10:32 AM
You aren't comparing apple to apples. Different game when Coleman played, no 3 pt. shot etc.
09-18-2011, 10:45 AM
^ Exactly right. I get a kick how these comparisons get put out with no real sense of what they are asking. George Mikan was the greatest Center of his day. Today, he would probably be a good High School center just because of his size, he may have been on the Bench for some D1 college, and the closest he would have been to the NBA game is if he bought a ticket!
The King was great for his era. You can compare how players were in their generation, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to compare generations. What the King did in his day was unique. If you too today's high schooler and put them against the plodding slow footed athletes of the Kings generations, you would have 1000's of Kentucky teenagers do what the king did! The King may have been way before his time, but he was not to the unique level of today's superstar athletes if compared to how he would play today!
The King was great for his era. You can compare how players were in their generation, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to compare generations. What the King did in his day was unique. If you too today's high schooler and put them against the plodding slow footed athletes of the Kings generations, you would have 1000's of Kentucky teenagers do what the king did! The King may have been way before his time, but he was not to the unique level of today's superstar athletes if compared to how he would play today!
09-18-2011, 05:04 PM
^ I got the opportunity to watch the OJ Mayo/Bill Walker show many times when they were with Cincinnati North College Hill. What a fun team to watch. It was the High School version of Houstons Phi-Slamma-Jamma
09-20-2011, 11:01 AM
As was posted earlier, you cannot compare basketball of the 1950s with current basketball. The game has changed and the athletes are far more athletic.
Coleman was a great scorer. However, he did little else. Mayo is far more athletic. If both were in their primes today, Mayo would dominate Coleman.
That is not to take away from the accomplishments of Coleman. He was and is a legend. However, to compare the two is like comparing the performance of a 2011 Cadillac to a 1954 Cadillac.
Coleman was a great scorer. However, he did little else. Mayo is far more athletic. If both were in their primes today, Mayo would dominate Coleman.
That is not to take away from the accomplishments of Coleman. He was and is a legend. However, to compare the two is like comparing the performance of a 2011 Cadillac to a 1954 Cadillac.
09-20-2011, 01:01 PM
^ I buy that 100%. Too often we want to compare the athletes without taking into consideration the era. It just can't be done. The argument of saying that an athlete of another era would be even greater today if they had the same opportunities in training and nutrition is just as equably in-valid. It's too subjective and one can only makes guesses that can't be validated.
It's fun to compare generations, but just not possible. Same thing with the great teams. Could Super Bowl 1's Green Bay Packers compete with last years Packers? I'd venture to say that the current version of the Packers would score at will and stifle the 60's team's offense completely.
It's fun to compare generations, but just not possible. Same thing with the great teams. Could Super Bowl 1's Green Bay Packers compete with last years Packers? I'd venture to say that the current version of the Packers would score at will and stifle the 60's team's offense completely.
09-20-2011, 11:34 PM
Please correct me if Im wrong...But I don't remember reading or hearing anything about Mayo scoring 68 points in one game!
Coleman might not be able to do what he used to ..but Mayo come nowhere close to ever doing what Coleman did !
Coleman might not be able to do what he used to ..but Mayo come nowhere close to ever doing what Coleman did !
09-20-2011, 11:35 PM
*came
09-21-2011, 09:21 AM
IceQB Wrote:Player: Mayo
Ky School Boy Legend: The King
Not sure people will be talking about Mayo when he is in his 70's
Good point!
09-21-2011, 02:24 PM
BLACKCAT FAN Wrote:Please correct me if Im wrong...But I don't remember reading or hearing anything about Mayo scoring 68 points in one game!
Coleman might not be able to do what he used to ..but Mayo come nowhere close to ever doing what Coleman did !
Using your argument, I suppose we can conclude that Bevo Francis was better than Michael Jordan. After all, Francis scored over 100 points twice in college and Jordan never remotely approached the century mark.
I realize that Coleman still has great loyalty from his breathern in the mountain counties of Eastern Kentucky. Loyalty to our own is natural. However, make whatever excuses you choose but Coleman in his absolute prime could not remotely keep up with Mayo. Mayo was more advanced as an eighth grader than was Coleman as a senior. Loyalty and reality are two different matters.
09-21-2011, 11:30 PM
Does you comments come from seeing both of them play or are you going by what others have said?
09-22-2011, 10:42 AM
If we are talking about Eastern Kentucky's most successful players from the past. Probably has to be Richie Farmer of Clay County. Maybe the best individual performance in the finals of the State tournament vs Allan Houston of Ballard ever.
09-22-2011, 12:06 PM
OutsideLookingIn Wrote:If we are talking about Eastern Kentucky's most successful players from the past. Probably has to be Richie Farmer of Clay County. Maybe the best individual performance in the finals of the State tournament vs Allan Houston of Ballard ever.
I don't consider that more sucessful than being the number 3 overall pick in a NBA draft and a contributor to an NBA team tha made it to the second round of the playoffs.
OJ Mayo is the more talented player. But King Kelly Coleman is the by far the bigger legend.:rockon:
09-22-2011, 02:04 PM
Saints52 Wrote:I don't consider that more sucessful than being the number 3 overall pick in a NBA draft and a contributor to an NBA team tha made it to the second round of the playoffs.
OJ Mayo is the more talented player. But King Kelly Coleman is the by far the bigger legend.:rockon:
I agree.
09-24-2011, 03:37 PM
Glenn Combs from Carr Creek played 10 + years of ABA Basketball, Just because you got drafted number 3 in today's NBA doesn't make you a legend, he did not even finish up in KY.
09-24-2011, 11:07 PM
Coleman is surrounded by myth and legend...It was more than his ability to score almost at will against the players of his day..He could do it drunk as well:thatsfunn His talent came easy,too easy. That was one of the reasons he was hated by many players..He didnt have to work hard for what he did..It just came easy to him...
Coleman was one hell of a rebounder as well..Im not gonna try and compare the two..Just too different players and two different times..
I have had the good fortune to talk to men who played with and against Kelly Coleman...Im sure many of the stoires are just that, stories, but not a single one failed to mention how he could shoot from anywhere he wanted and make impossible shots all night long..
A lot more than ability go into the making of a legend..
Coleman was one hell of a rebounder as well..Im not gonna try and compare the two..Just too different players and two different times..
I have had the good fortune to talk to men who played with and against Kelly Coleman...Im sure many of the stoires are just that, stories, but not a single one failed to mention how he could shoot from anywhere he wanted and make impossible shots all night long..
A lot more than ability go into the making of a legend..
09-28-2011, 12:34 AM
Tough call. Both were great in their era. But if it was a one on one pick up game I think OJ would have the edge with quickness and ball handling skills. But then the size difference of Coleman would make him able to shoot over top and have a hand in the face on D. Hard call!!
09-28-2011, 12:13 PM
OJ and King Kelly are/were both good for their eras, but give some thought to the following:
One player who graduated the same year (1956 I believe) as Coleman was Oscar Robertson. The Big O was from Indianapolis and was Indiana's Mr. Basketball, just like King Kelly was Mr. Basketball in Kentucky. Robertson said in his autobiography that his Indiana team had to play Kentucky in the Indiana-Kentucky All-Star game, and that he had looked forward to going up against Coleman because there had been so much hype leading up to the game about which player was the best. Well, Robertson scored over 30 points and Coleman had something like 3 points for the game. The second game was about the same.
It would be a good bet to say that neither Coleman or OJ are in the same status with the Big O, which kind of knocks down the theory of "players were good for their era" argument. The Big O was good regardless of the era. Put him in his heyday and give him the same training and conditioning as today's players and he would lay some smack down on OJ and many more modern day players. Heck, he is the only player to have averaged a triple-double in NBA history.
One player who graduated the same year (1956 I believe) as Coleman was Oscar Robertson. The Big O was from Indianapolis and was Indiana's Mr. Basketball, just like King Kelly was Mr. Basketball in Kentucky. Robertson said in his autobiography that his Indiana team had to play Kentucky in the Indiana-Kentucky All-Star game, and that he had looked forward to going up against Coleman because there had been so much hype leading up to the game about which player was the best. Well, Robertson scored over 30 points and Coleman had something like 3 points for the game. The second game was about the same.
It would be a good bet to say that neither Coleman or OJ are in the same status with the Big O, which kind of knocks down the theory of "players were good for their era" argument. The Big O was good regardless of the era. Put him in his heyday and give him the same training and conditioning as today's players and he would lay some smack down on OJ and many more modern day players. Heck, he is the only player to have averaged a triple-double in NBA history.
09-28-2011, 03:58 PM
LOOKAYANNER Wrote:OJ and King Kelly are/were both good for their eras, but give some thought to the following:
One player who graduated the same year (1956 I believe) as Coleman was Oscar Robertson. The Big O was from Indianapolis and was Indiana's Mr. Basketball, just like King Kelly was Mr. Basketball in Kentucky. Robertson said in his autobiography that his Indiana team had to play Kentucky in the Indiana-Kentucky All-Star game, and that he had looked forward to going up against Coleman because there had been so much hype leading up to the game about which player was the best. Well, Robertson scored over 30 points and Coleman had something like 3 points for the game. The second game was about the same.
It would be a good bet to say that neither Coleman or OJ are in the same status with the Big O, which kind of knocks down the theory of "players were good for their era" argument. The Big O was good regardless of the era. Put him in his heyday and give him the same training and conditioning as today's players and he would lay some smack down on OJ and many more modern day players. Heck, he is the only player to have averaged a triple-double in NBA history.
Big O was ahead of his time. I've had this same argument about Wilt. These guys were so far ahead of everyone else in their day that what they did could not be matched. However, I don't buy that give them today's training, conditioning, nutrition and enhancement drugs that they would dominate the league like they did in their era. Guys like Big O, Elgin Baylor, Wilt and Russel were one of few athletic African American players who got the opportunity to play in a league that was still dominated numbers wise with White ahtletes. In today's game, they could still be stars, but not to the degree that they were then. Wilt was a monster in comparison to players in his day. The only other 7 footers were slow unskilled white players. Today, Wilt would be smaller physically than man of the centers in the NBA. He could not jump over or push players around. The Big O was incredibly talented, but he was matched up against shooting guards in the 60's and 70's. Point Guards during that time were 6-0, not 6-5 like the Big O. So, the had to match up the shooting guard who were set-up shooters and did not have to play as athletic of a game. Those guys were just not athletic enough to match up. Put Big O into todays game, and at 6-5 he will be matched against another player who is as athletic and even taller than him.
Big O was not a great perimeter shooter. His game was pull-up jumpshots off of screens. We have no idea what kind of shooter he would have to be in today's game, but we know that with the athletic defenders of today, the mid-range jump-shot is no longer in existence. Big O drove past his defender and got into the lane where slow-footed space eaters could not stop him. He could still be successful at that part of his game today, but not nearly as easily as he did in his day. That allowed him to work the week-side and get rebounds. Today, that does not happen. Today, the NBA has guys who specialize in nothing more than rebounding. Their jobs are to patrol the back-side. These guys are 6-9 and bigger and as athletic as guards. There is just no way that Oscar would have that same level of success. As for his passing skills, that can still make him standout. But he played in an era that screens could get guys open under the basket. Today, screens in the paint no longer work. He would not have the easy dump pass to a guys standing under the basket for an uncontested shot.
We all get carried away with thinking how good guys would be today. I instead look at the guys that we try to compare those guys to. In this instance, it's thought that the Big O would be better than Mayo because we can compare what Oscar did then, and what Mayo is doing now. I contend that if you instead of moving Oscar forward 40 years, move a guy like Mayo back 40 years. I contend that Mayo would have success that would have made him a HOF'er. I'm not saying he would be as good as Oscar, but I do believe that his skills would be so far better than the players of that era that when we talk about the greats of the game from that time-frame, OJ would be mentioned in the same breath.
09-28-2011, 04:38 PM
airball3 Wrote:Holy Smokes. This was just a discussion, just wanted to know everyones opinions. Oj Mayo is from Huntington, and came to KY to play his 7th and 8th grade year at Rose Hill Christan School in Boyd County.
Actually he came and played at Rose Hill as a 6th grader. He did not play varsity there until the 7th grade though.
10-05-2011, 10:04 PM
Stardust Wrote:Big O was ahead of his time. I've had this same argument about Wilt. These guys were so far ahead of everyone else in their day that what they did could not be matched. However, I don't buy that give them today's training, conditioning, nutrition and enhancement drugs that they would dominate the league like they did in their era. Guys like Big O, Elgin Baylor, Wilt and Russel were one of few athletic African American players who got the opportunity to play in a league that was still dominated numbers wise with White ahtletes. In today's game, they could still be stars, but not to the degree that they were then. Wilt was a monster in comparison to players in his day. The only other 7 footers were slow unskilled white players. Today, Wilt would be smaller physically than man of the centers in the NBA. He could not jump over or push players around. The Big O was incredibly talented, but he was matched up against shooting guards in the 60's and 70's. Point Guards during that time were 6-0, not 6-5 like the Big O. So, the had to match up the shooting guard who were set-up shooters and did not have to play as athletic of a game. Those guys were just not athletic enough to match up. Put Big O into todays game, and at 6-5 he will be matched against another player who is as athletic and even taller than him.
Big O was not a great perimeter shooter. His game was pull-up jumpshots off of screens. We have no idea what kind of shooter he would have to be in today's game, but we know that with the athletic defenders of today, the mid-range jump-shot is no longer in existence. Big O drove past his defender and got into the lane where slow-footed space eaters could not stop him. He could still be successful at that part of his game today, but not nearly as easily as he did in his day. That allowed him to work the week-side and get rebounds. Today, that does not happen. Today, the NBA has guys who specialize in nothing more than rebounding. Their jobs are to patrol the back-side. These guys are 6-9 and bigger and as athletic as guards. There is just no way that Oscar would have that same level of success. As for his passing skills, that can still make him standout. But he played in an era that screens could get guys open under the basket. Today, screens in the paint no longer work. He would not have the easy dump pass to a guys standing under the basket for an uncontested shot.
We all get carried away with thinking how good guys would be today. I instead look at the guys that we try to compare those guys to. In this instance, it's thought that the Big O would be better than Mayo because we can compare what Oscar did then, and what Mayo is doing now. I contend that if you instead of moving Oscar forward 40 years, move a guy like Mayo back 40 years. I contend that Mayo would have success that would have made him a HOF'er. I'm not saying he would be as good as Oscar, but I do believe that his skills would be so far better than the players of that era that when we talk about the greats of the game from that time-frame, OJ would be mentioned in the same breath.
You have very good points. One thing I might add though is Big O was still playing into the early 1970's and won the NBA championship with the Milwaukee Bucks. The league was much more athletic than when he started in the late 1950's, and had a high percentage of African-American players.
10-11-2011, 03:59 PM
Mayo left Ky before he could become the type of legend that King Kelly Coleman was. King Kelly is a Ky legend that could have his life made into a movie. Don't insult the King by trying to compare O.J. Mayo to him. A more favorable comparasion might be to Richie Farmer but I will still take the King.
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