[Hoot Gibson]

I'm not sure a "fair scales" capitalist is going to allow thousands upon thousands of American workers to float in the breeze. Time will tell, Hoot, but I've got a hunch that GM is going to thrive, with a help from the kings of secret, Toyota... oh what a secret!

If the government does not allow businesses to fail because jobs would be lost, there is nothing "capitalist" about propping up a failing business model with tax dollars. Prepending "fair scales" and other socialist notions to "capitalism" is akin to painting lipstick on a pig. Socialism is a pig no matter how you dress it up.

[thecavemaster]

If the government does not allow businesses to fail because jobs would be lost, there is nothing "capitalist" about propping up a failing business model with tax dollars. Prepending "fair scales" and other socialist notions to "capitalism" is akin to painting lipstick on a pig. Socialism is a pig no matter how you dress it up.

You realize that Adam Smith himself, when read on the whole, did not take such a Darwinistic approach to capitalism (Wealth of Nations for instance)? "Fair scales" capitalism means that Walmart can't drive down wages then urge their employees to go get on government assistance. I guess that kind of thing doesn't happen paddling in a boat on an African river?

[Hoot Gibson]

Funny stuff.... you know, man, it's interesting: I find you just as big a trip as you find me. We're so far apart we may well meet where the wrap around effect occurs. "To ask me if I saw a CNN report is crazy".... It was a rhetorical question, bro. The patient didn't get lucky. He paid the going rate in Wales after a price check and beat the US price by $30,000. Quit paddling in a river in Africa, man.

A quick Google search reveals that the $30,000 figure that you cited as the cost of the surgery in the US is more than three times the average cost for out-patient thyroid surgery in the US. As for the $3,000 cost in Wales, I am going to assume that price is similarly exaggerated in the opposite direction. Which CNN star reported this story - that genius Rick Sanchez? There are very good reasons why I rarely watch CNN and why most other Americans have also abandoned the network.

[Hoot Gibson]

You realize that Adam Smith himself, when read on the whole, did not take such a Darwinistic approach to capitalism (Wealth of Nations for instance)? "Fair scales" capitalism means that Walmart can't drive down wages then urge their employees to go get on government assistance. I guess that kind of thing doesn't happen paddling in a boat on an African river?

What you are describing is exactly what will happen unless Obamacare is repealed. American employers will drop healthcare coverage from their benefits packages. Then many healthy Americans will simply pay a fine for not being covered because it will be cheaper than insurance. When they get seriously ill, then those same uncovered workers will sign up for insurance. Is that the kind of thing that you naively believe Obama's brand of socialism is going to prevent?

That is exactly what Kathleen Sebelius acknowledged would happen - but she was clueless when asked how much more tax dollars would be required to cover the high risk pools that Obamacare will create.

Great example of what happens when a socialist puts his thumb on the scales of the free market.

(And, yes I do believe that there is a role for government in a capitalist system. Breaking up AT&T was an example of proper government intervention as the cost of long distance telecommunication plummeted after the break-up - with no long term degradation of service.)

[thecavemaster]

What you are describing is exactly what will happen unless Obamacare is repealed. American employers will drop healthcare coverage from their benefits packages. Then many healthy Americans will simply pay a fine for not being covered because it will be cheaper than insurance. When they get seriously ill, then those same uncovered workers will sign up for insurance. Is that the kind of thing that you naively believe Obama's brand of socialism is going to prevent?

That is exactly what Kathleen Sebelius acknowledged would happen - but she was clueless when asked how much more tax dollars would be required to cover the high risk pools that Obamacare will create.

Great example of what happens when a socialist puts his thumb on the scales of the free market.

What I described is happening and was happening. Obama is not a socialist; he is a "fair scales" capitalist.

(And, yes I do believe that there is a role for government in a capitalist system. Breaking up AT&T was an example of proper government intervention as the cost of long distance telecommunication plummeted after the break-up - with no long term degradation of service.)

Walmart was greasing the system, using the federal government as welfare for its own benefit, along with many other big chain type organizations. By the way, Barack Obama is not a socialist by any fair and balanced use of the word.

[Hoot Gibson]

Walmart was greasing the system, using the federal government as welfare for its own benefit, along with many other big chain type organizations. By the way, Barack Obama is not a socialist by any fair and balanced use of the word.

The Obama regime took over GM and fired its CEO and Obama has expressed no regrets. IMO, that alone makes Obama a socialist. No matter how many times you claim that Obama is not a socialist, more facts are on my side than on yours. Name another US president that has assumed control of a large US company and then demanded that the company fire its CEO.

[thecavemaster]

The Obama regime took over GM and fired its CEO and Obama has expressed no regrets. IMO, that alone makes Obama a socialist. No matter how many times you claim that Obama is not a socialist, more facts are on my side than on yours. Name another US president that has assumed control of a large US company and then demanded that the company fire its CEO.

Is it socialist to ask a fireman to fight a fire at the home of a libertarian? In other words, believeing that the federal government has to step in and do certain things for the benefit of "the common good" that individual citizens might not be equipped to do for themselves... this is not socialism. As to specifics, I'm not sure Obama should have handled GM exactly the way he did. However, the might of corporate power often silences the voice of the small individual until "Big Brother" gets involved. Sometimes, like on the playground when a bully is muscling a little kid, "I'll get my Big Brother" isn't so bad. That's all, really, Hoot, I'm asking that you acknowledge. I realize you will never vote for Obama, maybe never offer him any grace at all. That's cool. However, you don't have to demonize or villify people by distortion and exaggeration and selective reporting simply because you disagree with them... unless, of course, you are attempting to dredge up a big audience on radio or TV.

[Hoot Gibson]

Is it socialist to ask a fireman to fight a fire at the home of a libertarian? In other words, believeing that the federal government has to step in and do certain things for the benefit of "the common good" that individual citizens might not be equipped to do for themselves... this is not socialism. As to specifics, I'm not sure Obama should have handled GM exactly the way he did. However, the might of corporate power often silences the voice of the small individual until "Big Brother" gets involved. Sometimes, like on the playground when a bully is muscling a little kid, "I'll get my Big Brother" isn't so bad. That's all, really, Hoot, I'm asking that you acknowledge. I realize you will never vote for Obama, maybe never offer him any grace at all. That's cool. However, you don't have to demonize or villify people by distortion and exaggeration and selective reporting simply because you disagree with them... unless, of course, you are attempting to dredge up a big audience on radio or TV.

Your life will be less stressful when you come to grips with the fact that Obama is a socialist and that you support a large part of his socialist agenda. Libertarians are not anarchists, BTW. We believe in a limited government that does not infringe on personal liberty except to protect the individual freedom of our fellow citizens.

[thecavemaster]

Your life will be less stressful when you come to grips with the fact that Obama is a socialist and that you support a large part of his socialist agenda. Libertarians are not anarchists, BTW. We believe in a limited government that does not infringe on personal liberty except to protect the individual freedom of our fellow citizens.

We are having, Hoot, a debate about the role of government in this democracy,. A Federalist is not a socialist. It was, in days gone by, not necessary for thinking people to resort to tossing around propoganda type phrases and words in order to have a debate about the role of government in a free society. I believe the federal government needs to be strong enough to integrate the University of Mississippi. Your stance? I believe the federal government needs to be strong enough to pass the Clean Air and Water Act, which saved a lot of our choking rivers and streams. Your stance? I believe in a federal government strong enough to check the outrageous abuses of human dignity within the corporate power structures. Your stance? I am not saying I agree with Barack Obama every time, in each instance. Nor am I saying that I am always comfortable with each and every decision made by the government. However, I stand by my position. Period.

[Hoot Gibson]

We are having, Hoot, a debate about the role of government in this democracy,. A Federalist is not a socialist. It was, in days gone by, not necessary for thinking people to resort to tossing around propoganda type phrases and words in order to have a debate about the role of government in a free society. I believe the federal government needs to be strong enough to integrate the University of Mississippi. Your stance? I believe the federal government needs to be strong enough to pass the Clean Air and Water Act, which saved a lot of our choking rivers and streams. Your stance? I believe in a federal government strong enough to check the outrageous abuses of human dignity within the corporate power structures. Your stance? I am not saying I agree with Barack Obama every time, in each instance. Nor am I saying that I am always comfortable with each and every decision made by the government. However, I stand by my position. Period.

A "federalist" president does not seize control of publicly traded companies, slash executive salaries, or fire their CEOs. The seizure of corporations by the federal government has nothing to do with the notion of the division of power between our national, state, and local governments. Every US president has been a federalist. Obama is arguably this nation's first socialist president. Hopefully he will also be our last one but I am skeptical that will be the case. As for the red herrings that you have thrown out in an attempt to confuse federalism with socialism, those are topics for another time and another thread.

[thecavemaster]

A "federalist" president does not seize control of publicly traded companies, slash executive salaries, or fire their CEOs. The seizure of corporations by the federal government has nothing to do with the notion of the division of power between our national, state, and local governments. Every US president has been a federalist. Obama is arguably this nation's first socialist president. Hopefully he will also be our last one but I am skeptical that will be the case. As for the red herrings that you have thrown out in an attempt to confuse federalism with socialism, those are topics for another time and another thread.

The promotion of the general welfare, it seems to me, is sometimes going to require that the federal government intercede in matters involving powerful corporate interests, especially when those interests are harming, have harmed, or are likely to harm the general welfare. You are drawing black and white lines, Hoot, which isn't surprising. Barack Obama is not a socialist. His actions regarding GM were protective in nature, with no intent to seize GM or other industry and keep them in the government owned column. In a time of crisis, he proposed action with the intent of promoting the general welfare. Obama apparently believes that the federal government should have a role in ensuring that large corporations in their fluctuations and decion making do not destabilize the lives of mutlitudes of Americans. That's NOT socialism. There's a fishy smell alright, but I think it's your abject "no grace" attitude toward Barack Obama.

[Old School]

The promotion of the general welfare, it seems to me, is sometimes going to require that the federal government intercede in matters involving powerful corporate interests, especially when those interests are harming, have harmed, or are likely to harm the general welfare. You are drawing black and white lines, Hoot, which isn't surprising. Barack Obama is not a socialist. His actions regarding GM were protective in nature, with no intent to seize GM or other industry and keep them in the government owned column. In a time of crisis, he proposed action with the intent of promoting the general welfare. Obama apparently believes that the federal government should have a role in ensuring that large corporations in their fluctuations and decion making do not destabilize the lives of mutlitudes of Americans. That's NOT socialism. There's a fishy smell alright, but I think it's your abject "no grace" attitude toward Barack Obama.

How do you know the intent of Barry "the socialist" Obama? Are you in his inner most circle or is it just wishful thinking on your part?

[thecavemaster]

How do you know the intent of Barry "the socialist" Obama? Are you in his inner most circle or is it just wishful thinking on your part?

IF YOU READ THE PLAN, the impetus is the righting of the GM ship, a wiser unfurling of the sails in years to come, and... as soon as possible, the government gets off the boat. I do not expect the Right Wing Flirites to give any grace to President Obama. It is delightful, however, when they reinforce what hack jobs they are. Barack Obama is not a socialist. He is a "fair scales" capitalist.

[Old School]

IF YOU READ THE PLAN, the impetus is the righting of the GM ship, a wiser unfurling of the sails in years to come, and... as soon as possible, the government gets off the boat. I do not expect the Right Wing Flirites to give any grace to President Obama. It is delightful, however, when they reinforce what hack jobs they are. Barack Obama is not a socialist. He is a "fair scales" capitalist.

Do you think it's ok for Barry "the socialist" to say what everyone should earn? At least that's what he said when he went off his telepromter. "I do think at a certain point you've made enough money" .

BTW Barry is a socialist. Some of us realize it today, other may take a little time before their eyes are opened, but eventually most everyone will open their eyes.

[Hoot Gibson]

IF YOU READ THE PLAN, the impetus is the righting of the GM ship, a wiser unfurling of the sails in years to come, and... as soon as possible, the government gets off the boat. I do not expect the Right Wing Flirites to give any grace to President Obama. It is delightful, however, when they reinforce what hack jobs they are. Barack Obama is not a socialist. He is a "fair scales" capitalist.

And when and IF the US government sheds its ownership interest, the UAW's ownership interest, which the Obama regime ripped away from the shareholders, will remain. Obama is a socialist - the question is how far he can drag the country in his direction through thuggery and bribery before he gets tossed out of office.

[Hoot Gibson]

The promotion of the general welfare, it seems to me, is sometimes going to require that the federal government intercede in matters involving powerful corporate interests, especially when those interests are harming, have harmed, or are likely to harm the general welfare. You are drawing black and white lines, Hoot, which isn't surprising. Barack Obama is not a socialist. His actions regarding GM were protective in nature, with no intent to seize GM or other industry and keep them in the government owned column. In a time of crisis, he proposed action with the intent of promoting the general welfare. Obama apparently believes that the federal government should have a role in ensuring that large corporations in their fluctuations and decion making do not destabilize the lives of mutlitudes of Americans. That's NOT socialism. There's a fishy smell alright, but I think it's your abject "no grace" attitude toward Barack Obama.

As to the bolded, I owe Barack Obama nothing. He is a taker as all socialists are. Nobody is born with the moral authority to redistribute wealth and no government can bestow such moral authority upon them. Socialists give common thieves a bad name. Common thieves make no pretense that they have the right to steal from us, they just steal what they can get away with and hide in the shadows. Socialists steal without shame or remorse and spend their waking hours trying to convince themselves and their victims that what they do is for the greater good.

[BillyB]

As to the bolded, I owe Barack Obama nothing. He is a taker as all socialists are. Nobody is born with the moral authority to redistribute wealth and no government can bestow such moral authority upon them. Socialists give common thieves a bad name. Common thieves make no pretense that they have the right to steal from us, they just steal what they can get away with and hide in the shadows. Socialists steal without shame or remorse and spend their waking hours trying to convince themselves and their victims that what they do is for the greater good.

Is Bush a socialist since the government took over AIG when he was in office?

[Old School]

Is Bush a socialist since the government took over AIG when he was in office?

I didn't agree with the Bush bailout plan,(which was supported by Barry) just as I don't agree with Obama's bailout plans.

Giving bailouts alone does not qualify one as a socialist, however Obama has close ties to the likes of Ayers, Dohrn and Frank Marshall Davis and many more known socialist while appoiinting several people who have socialist ties to leadership positions in our government.

Since taking office Obama has taken over 2 large automakers, banks, 1/6th of our economy with healthcare. He is also looking into the possibly capping our earnings. Add to the fact that, Obama has attended several socialist conferences while in New York. After those meetings Obama wrote the wealth and stark racial divisons of Manhattan had a profound effect on him.

From 2006: "The reason they don’t believe that government has a role in solving national problems is because they think government is the problem,” Obama said to approximately 1,500 people at the Kansas Democratic Party Washington Days convention.

Obama, a Democrat from Illinois, said Bush’s political philosophy consists of giving tax breaks and encouraging “everyone to go buy your own health care, your own retirement and security, your own child care, your own schools, your own private security forces, your own roads, your own levees.

For me the last paragraph pretty much tells me where he stands on this issue.

[Hoot Gibson]

Is Bush a socialist since the government took over AIG when he was in office?

It seems that no matter how many times that I slam Bush's domestic policies, liberals still assume that I must have supported him lockstep because I oppose nearly every Obama policy. Do I consider Bush a hard line socialist, as I do Obama? No, I do not. Were the bailout socialist actions? Yes they were.

The billions of dollars that Bush spent in Africa to get Bono's approval and in the hopes that it would win the votes of black Americans was even worse than the AIG bailout. It is bad enough to take money out of the pockets of job-producing American citizens and give it to American citizens who refuse to work - but to give such an enormous sum of tax dollars to corrupt African regimes to fight AIDS was inexcusable, IMO. AIDS is a largely preventable disease. Spending money to fight it in this country can arguably be justified by the "general welfare" clause of the US Constitution but no such argument can be made to support Bush's decision.

However, Bush did not surround himself at the highest level of by a cadre of Mao-admiring communists and socialists. Obama did and besides, whatever Bush did does not excuse Obama's expansive socialist agenda.

Bush is no longer president and liberals had eight years to attack his every move. Now it is your turn to defend Obama's actions on their own merits. "Bush did it too!" is not much of a justification. Is it?

[thecavemaster]

Barack Obama is not a socialist. He is a "fair scales" capitalist, which, apparently, rankles those who think corporations get a free pass when it comes to maximizing profits by minimizing moral obligations to individuals and communities. "Fair scales" capitalism suggest that "if you've got a job thank a rich man" doesn't quite sound the depths of the issue.

[Hoot Gibson]

Barack Obama is not a socialist. He is a "fair scales" capitalist, which, apparently, rankles those who think corporations get a free pass when it comes to maximizing profits by minimizing moral obligations to individuals and communities. "Fair scales" capitalism suggest that "if you've got a job thank a rich man" doesn't quite sound the depths of the issue.

Obama is a socialist who said very recently that at some point, he thinks that you have made enough money. Obama wants to be the ruler who decides how much money is reasonable for you to make. Public servant Obama raked in $5 million last year while holding our highest elective office. There is nothing fair about having some left wing politician deciding how much his subjects may earn through their labor.

[Old School]

Obama is a socialist who said very recently that at some point, he thinks that you have made enough money. Obama wants to be the ruler who decides how much money is reasonable for you to make. Public servant Obama raked in $5 million last year while holding our highest elective office. There is nothing fair about having some left wing politician deciding how much his subjects may earn through their labor.

:Thumbs: Very Good Post, Hoot

[Old School]

Here is a good explanation of how the loan was repaid.
http://biggovernment.com/ngillespie/2010...-it-didnt/

[Stardust]

^ good find

[thecavemaster]

Barack Obama pointed out a little over a week ago, in his speech at the Cooper Union, in New York that "the free market was never meant to be a free license to take whatever you can get, however you can get it." Barack Obama is a "fair scales" capitalist. Ford Motor Company executives decide it is cheapter to pay "pain and suffering" claims than to recall and fix the Ford Pinto gas-tank-explodes-when-hit-in-rear-end problem. They choose money over people (taking as much as they can get no matter how they have to get it). "Fair scales" capitalism says, "Oh, no, Ford, oh no you don't." Barack Obama is a "fair scales" capitalist.

[Old School]

Barack Obama pointed out a little over a week ago, in his speech at the Cooper Union, in New York that "the free market was never meant to be a free license to take whatever you can get, however you can get it." Barack Obama is a "fair scales" capitalist. Ford Motor Company executives decide it is cheapter to pay "pain and suffering" claims than to recall and fix the Ford Pinto gas-tank-explodes-when-hit-in-rear-end problem. They choose money over people (taking as much as they can get no matter how they have to get it). "Fair scales" capitalism says, "Oh, no, Ford, oh no you don't." Barack Obama is a "fair scales" capitalist.

It is laughable to think that Barry "the socialist" Obama cares for anyone else than himself.

[Hoot Gibson]

It is laughable to think that Barry "the socialist" Obama cares for anyone else than himself.

Barry is a "Finger on the scales" socialist. He has no use for fairness or capitalism.

[thecavemaster]

It is laughable to think that Barry "the socialist" Obama cares for anyone else than himself.

What does a US Senator, every US Senator, see in the mirror every morning? A potential US President. Barack Obama is a Fair Scales Capitalist. I am sure he is not immune to self aggrandizement, so he can join the human club. Funny, Old School, I never thought of you as being in the hack crowd. Times change.

[Old School]

What does a US Senator, every US Senator, see in the mirror every morning? A potential US President. Barack Obama is a Fair Scales Capitalist. I am sure he is not immune to self aggrandizement, so he can join the human club. Funny, Old School, I never thought of you as being in the hack crowd. Times change.

I hope and pray they see their reflection, if not the we may have a bunch of vampires walking the halls of congress.

I must admit a year ago I thought you were as far left as you could go, but you just keep going to the left. Remember if you keep going left you eventually be to the right of where you started.

[thecavemaster]

I hope and pray they see their reflection, if not the we may have a bunch of vampires walking the halls of congress.

I must admit a year ago I thought you were as far left as you could go, but you just keep going to the left. Remember if you keep going left you eventually be to the right of where you started.

I thought everybody knew the "what does a US Senator see when they look in the mirror in the morning" joke. Fair Scales Capitalism is leftist? Strange days, indeed.