[Hoot Gibson]

Was what Harry Reid said untrue? As I remember it, he said, basically, that Obama's light skin color and language inflection would help him win votes in white America. Are you suggesting that what he said is inaccurate? or uncomfortable? And, before you ask, yes, it was a horrible "wish I hadn't said it" for Reid.

Reid's statements, as well as Matthews', is a reflection of the attitude that liberals have of black Americans. In white liberal circles, African-Americans can only be successful in this country with the help of good people such as themselves. What Reid basically said, was that Obama could pass for a white because of his light skin and ability to speak without a black dialect (except when he wanted to), and this would allow him to fool American racists into voting for him. The comment was not so much an insult to Obama as it was an insult to millions of American voters.

This is why men and women such as Justice Thomas and former Sec. of State, Condi Rice are so hated and viciously attacked by the left. Their success and their acceptance by conservatives does not fit the racial profile that liberals have concocted, so they represent dangerous threats to the liberal orthodoxy.

[thecavemaster]

If Mitch McConnell had made the exact same statement, (and if it were true), then what would members of Democratic Party be spewing? We both know the answer to that question. It would be outrage, and the head of McConnell on a platter.

How has Robert C. Byrd been allowed to stay in the good graces of the democratic party all these years CM?

First, I'm no fan of Robert Byrd. Second, and this is a guess, Byrd's voting record on all manner of issues relating to civil rights has gained him enough leverage to survive the steps of his past. Here's a truth: after the election of Bush II, a lot of the jokes had to do with his intellect. For Obama, a lot of the jokes and cell phone stuff had to do with race. Both were crude. Both were unfair.

[Mr.Kimball]

First, I'm no fan of Robert Byrd. Second, and this is a guess, Byrd's voting record on all manner of issues relating to civil rights has gained him enough leverage to survive the steps of his past. Here's a truth: after the election of Bush II, a lot of the jokes had to do with his intellect. For Obama, a lot of the jokes and cell phone stuff had to do with race. Both were crude. Both were unfair.

So you are admitting that hypocricy is exisiting in the democratic party's agenda objectives?

[thecavemaster]

So you are admitting that hypocricy is exisiting in the democratic party's agenda objectives?

Funny, I always thought "hypocrisy" was a human problem, not a liberal or conservative one. This caveat: Harry Reid's voting record on a whole host of civil rights issues, like Byrd's, gave him a little leverage. Are you admitting that hypocrisy exists in the Republican Party's and the Tea Party's agenda objectives?

[Mr.Kimball]

Funny, I always thought "hypocrisy" was a human problem, not a liberal or conservative one. This caveat: Harry Reid's voting record on a whole host of civil rights issues, like Byrd's, gave him a little leverage. Are you admitting that hypocrisy exists in the Republican Party's and the Tea Party's agenda objectives?

Not saying that all all. There was a hypothetical question offered with the "what if" prefix attached. You simply made to light to what I suspected.

[thecavemaster]

Not saying that all all. There was a hypothetical question offered with the "what if" prefix attached. You simply made to light to what I suspected.

Compare McConnell's voting record on a whole host of issues seen to impact the African American community with that of Reid or Byrd. I think you'll find the "leverage" to not be the same. Two teachers say the same thing about your daughter. One has always been her favorite teacher; the other has always seemed to have a problem with her. Which one are you more apt to show a little leeway to? Which one has a more leverage?

[Mr.Kimball]

Compare McConnell's voting record on a whole host of issues seen to impact the African American community with that of Reid or Byrd. I think you'll find the "leverage" to not be the same. Two teachers say the same thing about your daughter. One has always been her favorite teacher; the other has always seemed to have a problem with her. Which one are you more apt to show a little leeway to? Which one has a more leverage?

Who cares what Mitch McConnell had voted for in the past. It shouldn't matter.

OK, I see what your getting at though. Suppose those same two teachers call your daughter the "n" word. Teacher #1 says, "oh by the way, here's a hundred bucks, go buy yourself a hairdo, you nappy headed ho". Teacher #2 offers nothing. So what we have here is teacher #2 is now a racist while teacher #1 is an A-OK dude. Principals, someone's heart, leverage and this whole leeway crap only apply if your daughter is getting a buck out of it or not? That's exactly what your saying.:eyeroll:


What a stupid, silly analogy CM, and you know it.

[thecavemaster]

Who cares what Mitch McConnell had voted for in the past. It shouldn't matter.

OK, I see what your getting at though. Suppose those same two teachers call your daughter the "n" word. Teacher #1 says, "oh by the way, here's a hundred bucks, go buy yourself a hairdo, you nappy headed ho". Teacher #2 offers nothing. So what we have here is teacher #2 is now a racist while teacher #1 is an A-OK dude. Principals, someone's heart, leverage and this whole leeway crap only apply if your daughter is getting a buck out of it or not? That's exactly what your saying.:eyeroll:


What a stupid, silly analogy CM, and you know it.

You are equating, then, a $100 haircut to things like affirmative action? You are suggesting, then, a complete erasure of the past in understanding the present? I am suggesting the risings of the heart in the present can often be vetted through the past. It's a human equation, Kemba, requiring some emotive IQ about people and how they function in relationship dynamics. So, really, given it's you, never mind.

[Mr.Kimball]

You are equating, then, a $100 haircut to things like affirmative action? You are suggesting, then, a complete erasure of the past in understanding the present? I am suggesting the risings of the heart in the present can often be vetted through the past. It's a human equation, Kemba, requiring some emotive IQ about people and how they function in relationship dynamics. So, really, given it's you, never mind.

Thyat's about what I thought. You come up with some stupid daughter and two teachers mumbo jumbo and then when you get that same crap thrown back in your face you come up with even more meaningless jibber jabber.

Yep, justify a known advocater of Klan practices (you know cross burners, etc. etc. etc.) Just what exactly has Byrd done over the years to justify your assertions that he did so much for the black community that all could be forgiven for his race transgressions? I cant wait for this one.

[Mr.Kimball]

You are equating, then, a $100 haircut to things like affirmative action? You are suggesting, then, a complete erasure of the past in understanding the present? I am suggesting the risings of the heart in the present can often be vetted through the past. It's a human equation, Kemba, requiring some emotive IQ about people and how they function in relationship dynamics. So, really, given it's you, never mind.

That's about what I thought. You come up with some stupid daughter and two teachers mumbo jumbo and then when you get that same crap thrown back in your face you come up with even more meaningless jibber jabber to contradict what you just said. I put in simple layman's terms what you said and you just didn't like the true translation of it. Your just trying to save a little face for making yourself look like a complete idiot again. That's it, aint it?

Yep, justify a known advocater of Klan practices (you know cross burners, etc. etc. etc.) If Byrd was a republican The Rev. Jesse, Al and the gang would have had him toasted at the stake, and you know it. Just what exactly has Byrd done over the years to justify your assertions that he did so much for the black community that all could be forgiven for his race transgressions? I cant wait for this one.

[Mr.Kimball]

Sorry for the double post. Disregard the first one.

[thecavemaster]

That's about what I thought. You come up with some stupid daughter and two teachers mumbo jumbo and then when you get that same crap thrown back in your face you come up with even more meaningless jibber jabber to contradict what you just said. I put in simple layman's terms what you said and you just didn't like the true translation of it. Your just trying to save a little face for making yourself look like a complete idiot again. That's it, aint it?

Yep, justify a known advocater of Klan practices (you know cross burners, etc. etc. etc.) If Byrd was a republican The Rev. Jesse, Al and the gang would have had him toasted at the stake, and you know it. Just what exactly has Byrd done over the years to justify your assertions that he did so much for the black community that all could be forgiven for his race transgressions? I cant wait for this one.

Ah, Kemba... (1) I stated I am no fan of Byrd's. (2) Byrd's voting record on issues of importance to African Americans vs. McConnell's. Take a look at it. (3) Your need for me to contradict what I say doesn't equate to an actual contradiction. The voters of West Virginia never turned Byrd out. Lott and Allen withdrew via their own choice, or via pressure from the party. "Once a racist, always a racist." Is that it? Maybe Byrd changed. Certainly political climate changed.

[Mr.Kimball]

Ah, Kemba... (1) I stated I am no fan of Byrd's. (2) Byrd's voting record on issues of importance to African Americans vs. McConnell's. Take a look at it. (3) Your need for me to contradict what I say doesn't equate to an actual contradiction. The voters of West Virginia never turned Byrd out. Lott and Allen withdrew via their own choice, or via pressure from the party. "Once a racist, always a racist." Is that it? Maybe Byrd changed. Certainly political climate changed.

1) Why would you not be a fan of Byrd? He seems to advocate everything that you support.

2) Oh I see. You want me to look it up because you spout off, but yet dont have a clue yourself.

3) From the democratic party's point of view if he were a republican , you can count on it.

4) Perhaps, but again that doesn't count if the person happens to be a republican, does it?

[thecavemaster]

1) Why would you not be a fan of Byrd? He seems to advocate everything that you support.

2) Oh I see. You want me to look it up because you spout off, but yet dont have a clue yourself.

3) From the democratic party's point of view if he were a republican , you can count on it.

4) Perhaps, but again that doesn't count if the person happens to be a republican, does it?

Well, let's see: "take a look at it" was a suggestion that McConnell's voting record does not match Byrd's when it comes to issues that are important in the African American community. As for me, I doubt that Lott and Allen are racists in the vein of Bull O'Connor. However, the "Archie Bunker" vote still lives in the South and elsewhere. To appeal to that "Archie Bunker" element within the electorate is, in my opinion, not a service to this country, no matter what party one claims.

[Mr.Kimball]

Well, let's see: "take a look at it" was a suggestion that McConnell's voting record does not match Byrd's when it comes to issues that are important in the African American community. As for me, I doubt that Lott and Allen are racists in the vein of Bull O'Connor. However, the "Archie Bunker" vote still lives in the South and elsewhere. To appeal to that "Archie Bunker" element within the electorate is, in my opinion, not a service to this country, no matter what party one claims.

Offer a few examples of what your referring to.

Would you say the Malcolm X vote still exists as well, and is just as strong or perhaps stronger in the north, south, east, and west?

[thecavemaster]

Offer a few examples of what your referring to.

Would you say the Malcolm X vote exists as well and is just as strong or perhaps stronger in the north, south, east, and west?

Look at affirmative action votes: McConnell favored moving away from it. That is not a position favored in the African American community. It is a position favored among Conservatives. Now, for me, I am not suggesting that votes on affirmative action measure "racist" or "not racist." I am suggesting that those who vote in conjunction with what are perceived to be issues important to African Americans are going to be treated a little "kinder and gentler" when gaffs and the like come 'round.

[Mr.Kimball]

Look at affirmative action votes: McConnell favored moving away from it. That is not a position favored in the African American community. It is a position favored among Conservatives. Now, for me, I am not suggesting that votes on affirmative action measure "racist" or "not racist." I am suggesting that those who vote in conjunction with what are perceived to be issues important to African Americans are going to be treated a little "kinder and gentler" when gaffs and the like come 'round.

Denial of access to full American citizenship benefits to illegal Hispanic aliens is probably not popular in that community either. I guess they view that as important to that community too. Popular does not make anything right. And so it goes on and on with many issues as well.

What about the Malcolm X vote? Do you think that exists?

[thecavemaster]

Denial of access to full American citizenship benefits to illegal Hispanic aliens is probably not popular in that community either. I guess they view that as important to that community too. Popular does not make anything right. And so it goes on and on with many issues as well.

What about the Malcolm X vote? Do you think that exists?

www.ontheissues.org... can view votes of everybody on all manner of issues.... As I have said previously, stereotyping and racism are human problems. Is there a "George Jefferson" vote? I'm sure there is. Does it constitute, in numbers, as many as "Archie Bunker"? I doubt it. I would think, Kimball, that you could at least acknowledge that affirmative action might be important to African Americans for, historically, good reasons. I think that Pat Robertson has said some outlandish things and gotten more of a "pass" from the religious right than if, say, a Jesse Jackson had said similarly inflammatory things. That's sort of a human bent as well.

[Mr.Kimball]

www.ontheissues.org... can view votes of everybody on all manner of issues.... As I have said previously, stereotyping and racism are human problems. Is there a "George Jefferson" vote? I'm sure there is. Does it constitute, in numbers, as many as "Archie Bunker"? I doubt it. I would think, Kimball, that you could at least acknowledge that affirmative action might be important to African Americans for, historically, good reasons. I think that Pat Robertson has said some outlandish things and gotten more of a "pass" from the religious right than if, say, a Jesse Jackson had said similarly inflammatory things. That's sort of a human bent as well.

That's only specualtive on your part.

Not as far as I'm concerned. I think he is a nut too.

All of us never recieve what we may view as important all the time CM. Doesn't make it either right or wrong. Underlying factors play into many decisions.

[thecavemaster]

That's only specualtive on your part.

Not as far as I'm concerned. I think he is a nut too.

All of us never recieve what we may view as important all the time CM. Doesn't make it either right or wrong. Underlying factors play into many decisions.

If African Americans are around 12% of population, wouldn't it stand to reason that more "Archie Bunker" votes are out there than "George Jefferson"? I think that's more than just sort of willy nilly speculation. As the Rolling Stones put it, "You can't always get what you want...." I agree. But, if I'm a minority voting block, I pay attention to who votes how on certain issues...and I'm in too vulnerable a position to worry much about the "underlying factors" gambit.

[Mr.Kimball]

[FONT=System]If African Americans are around 12% of population, wouldn't it stand to reason that more "Archie Bunker" votes are out there than "George Jefferson"? I think that's more than just sort of willy nilly speculation. As the Rolling Stones put it, "You can't always get what you want...." I agree. But, if I'm a minority voting block, I pay attention to who votes how on certain issues...and I'm in too vulnerable a position to worry much about the "underlying factors" gambit.[/FONT]

Not really. It all comes down to percentages.

I also notice you fail to acknowledge the Malcomb X vote, but rather in call it the George Jefferson vote. There is just as much difference in those two as there is in the Klan vote and the Archie Bunker vote. I always note that you offer the "Archie and the Klan" scenerio but never the "Malcomb and the George" in your posts. It's always slanted towards the accusation of white racism. Every single time.



But isn't it just human nature to have that "world is against me" mentality if we dont get what we want when we want it, no matter what the situation may be or what position you may be in.

[thecavemaster]

Not really. It all comes down to percentages.

I also notice you fail to acknowledge the Malcomb X vote, but rather in call it the George Jefferson vote. There is just as much difference in those two as there is in the Klan vote and the Archie Bunker vote. I always note that you offer the "Archie and the Klan" scenerio but never the "Malcomb and the George" in your posts. It's always slanted towards the accusation of white racism. Every single time.



But isn't it just human nature to have that "world is against me" mentality if we dont get what we want when we want it, no matter what the situation may be or what position you may be in.

Malcolm X talked about "institutionalized racism" and the "oppressed/oppressor" relationship. I think George Jefferson is a better fit for Archie Bunker. To advocate the overthrow of institutional racism FROM the position of the oppressed is different than advocating the lynching of the oppressed from the position of the oppressor. Racism practiced by the majority is more dangerous to the minority than racism practiced by the minority toward the majority... but both are racism.

[Mr.Kimball]

Malcolm X talked about "institutionalized racism" and the "oppressed/oppressor" relationship. I think George Jefferson is a better fit for Archie Bunker. To advocate the overthrow of institutional racism FROM the position of the oppressed is different than advocating the lynching of the oppressed from the position of the oppressor. Racism practiced by the majority is more dangerous to the minority than racism practiced by the minority toward the majority... but both are racism.

That's the point I was making Archie=George, Klan = Malcomb. But regardless, why is it always a Klan, Archie arguement with never a Malcomb, George example ever thrown in? Seeing that you admit both exist. Hey lets even admit that a Skinheads=Black Panther equation exists as well.

I differ to agree with that.

[thecavemaster]

That's the point I was making Archie=George, Klan = Malcomb. But regardless, why is it always a Klan, Archie arguement with never a Malcomb, George example ever thrown in? Seeing that you admit both exist. Hey lets even admit that a Skinheads=Black Panther equation exists as well.

I differ to agree with that.

IF you are suggesting that blacks and whites have equally suffered under the sting of racism in the history and present of this nation, I strongly disagree. IF you are suggesting that, as an individual white man, you "owe" nothing to black people in psychological and monetary reparations, I agree. IF you are suggesting that denying someone basic human dignity based on the color of their skin is equally offensive in white or black, I agree. However, institutional racism, encoded racism, DID exist in this nation from its inception...and it favored the white, land owning majority. Did "blacks in the back" seating on buses in Montgomery and other such practices create in black children the "shadow of inferority" that MLK said it did? Of course it did. Malcolm X never had enough power to put white children in such conditions. That's why, at least for one reason, your whole equating process breaks down.

[Mr.Kimball]

IF you are suggesting that blacks and whites have equally suffered under the sting of racism in the history and present of this nation, I strongly disagree. IF you are suggesting that, as an individual white man, you "owe" nothing to black people in psychological and monetary reparations, I agree. IF you are suggesting that denying someone basic human dignity based on the color of their skin is equally offensive in white or black, I agree. However, institutional racism, encoded racism, DID exist in this nation from its inception...and it favored the white, land owning majority. Did "blacks in the back" seating on buses in Montgomery and other such practices create in black children the "shadow of inferority" that MLK said it did? Of course it did. Malcolm X never had enough power to put white children in such conditions. That's why, at least for one reason, your whole equating process breaks down.

Perhaps as you suggest maybe not in physical enslavement, but I also strongly suggest that he did incite a hatred into hearts that in some senses is just as damaging. Again I diasgree with your disagreeing.

You do have to remember too CM, that there were thousands and thousands of white men that gave the ultimate sacrifice by giving their own lives to see that a black human was set free from bondage. I wonder why only that negative aspect of American history get exposed and nothing is ever mentioned for the immense passion and love that many many white men showed for their black brothers.

[thecavemaster]

Perhaps as you suggest maybe not in physical enslavement, but I also strongly suggest that he did incite a hatred into hearts that in some senses is just as damaging. Again I diasgree with your disagreeing.

You do have to remember too CM, that there were thousands and thousands of white men that gave the ultimate sacrifice by giving their own lives to see that a black human was set free from bondage. I wonder why only that negative aspect of American history get exposed and nothing is ever mentioned for the immense passion and love that many many white men showed for their black brothers.

You are correct about white folks participating in the civil rights movement... a fact which MLK reminded black folks of quite often. However, often in history, when an oppressed people find they can't take any more, they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone. The reaction of the oppressed to the oppressor's institutionalized racism is less culpable, in my opinion.

[Hoot Gibson]

You are correct about white folks participating in the civil rights movement... a fact which MLK reminded black folks of quite often. However, often in history, when an oppressed people find they can't take any more, they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone. The reaction of the oppressed to the oppressor's institutionalized racism is less culpable, in my opinion.

Actually, more white men died in the civil rights movement than black men. Tens of thousands of them died during the Civil War and its aftermath fighting to free Aftican-Americans from bondage and Abraham Lincoln lost his life to an advocate of slavery. All of us had some oppressed ancestors in their family tree - American blacks just suffered oppression more recently than most.

[Mr.Kimball]

Actually, more white men died in the civil rights movement than black men. Tens of thousands of them died during the Civil War and its aftermath fighting to free Aftican-Americans from bondage and Abraham Lincoln lost his life to an advocate of slavery. All of us had some oppressed ancestors in their family tree - American blacks just suffered oppression more recently than most.

That is basicly what I was referring to. It is estimated that that just in the Civil War's 4 years alone, that the Union Army lost 360,000 white men, who fought and died to help free the black man from bondage.

[thecavemaster]

That is basicly what I was referring to. It is estimated that that just in the Civil War's 4 years alone, that the Union Army lost 360,000 white men, who fought and died to help free the black man from bondage.

Of course, the Civil War did not end institutionalized racism.

[Hoot Gibson]

Of course, the Civil War did not end institutionalized racism.

Nor did any other single component of the civil rights movement. It is pretty tough to make much progress towards civil rights when one is bound in slavery, however, and the thousands of white soldiers whose lives were forfeited still made the ultimate sacrifice.