[nky]

besides there is a way to earn your rights back. Petition the governor for a pardon

[pagan]

:redboxer:

Actually your probally not as qualified. Theres quite a few of us on here that have worked in maximum security federal prisons. Lockdowns do not happen that easily. I seen an officer get stabbed 7 times 3 of which in the head and they were locked down for less than a day. Your mistaken about how the point system works as well. The point system does make up your security levels as long as there are no variables. But you have to earn the right to be in a 23 hr lock down facility not the other way around. Theres only one. Thats the ADX in colorado. USP big sandy is the next level down from that. They are starting to implement a new system into some of the USPs. Its called a SMU. Special management unit. That will allow more institutions to become 23 hour lock downs without meeting the criteria to be an ADX. And there is alot of recruitment going on. Many of the crips and bloods are now muslim. Alot of DC inmates are now muslim. We even see a few white inmates becomeing muslim probally due to the fact of a couple white muslim extremist that were involve with terrorist oranizations being in prison right here in kentucky.

well i was being nice when i said that, but i'm just as qualified as you when it comes to looking at the facts and the inner workings of the prison system and giving my opinion :yikes:...working at McDonald's doesn't mean you know how to make burgers better than anyone...just means that's what you get paid to do...since you work at corrections facility i'm sure you have unique knowledge and i can respect that, but that doesn't mean i can't learn and find out for myself either....our prison system is a complete mess and needs an overhaul..my whole point in my original message which for whatever reason you don't want to talk about is felons depending on the situation deserve to get back their voting rights once they've left prison....Research shows that 60% of people in state prisons who are serving time for a drug offense have no prior history of violence or any significant selling activity....why once they get out should they lose that right...i didn't say lockdowns happen EASY....i gave situations that could be casue for a lock down and those are some...like i said every prison is different and my tour of one particular facilty...a lockdown did happen b/c of a messy bed....so it can be that EASY....does it happen consistently....no, but it does happen....i didn't have to work there to know that....street gangs are more a problem for their society when they re-enter it than they are national threat to U.S. security...like i said before they are a threat to whatever neighborhood they go back too but that's more of indictment of the whole entire prison system in general...as for islam...the religion itself can be a message of peace or a destructive weapon of hate. Clearly the peaceful part is better when dealing with inmates..Overall, the total extent of the infiltration of the prison systems remains unknown..obviousy there is recruiting go on, but like i said before there is nothing that shows anything that is a threat to the gov't....if this there is a threat to our national security, why has there not been a single successful terror attack been carried out since 9/11? Furthermore, why is it that the ten Muslim clerics of the BoP, products of the ISNA – an organization allegedly linked to extremism and terrorism - were cleared of terrorist ties and billed as moderate Muslims.....did the FBI screw that up? maybe? my whole point to begin with was voting rights depending on the crime and futhermore you can't deny someone the right to vote b/c of their religion...a christion felon and a muslim felon deserve the same right if they are allowed to vote...

[flavorflav]

The largest group in USP BIG SANDY right here in martin co is muslims. Some of which are labeled terrorist.

is that your place of work?

[flavorflav]

If you committed a felony you should lose your rights. Felonies are serious crimes. PI is not a felony. Remember what the great Philosopher Baretta said-" Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time."

If you've paid your debt to society why shouldn't you be able to earn your voting rights back....the point of prison is to rehabilitate these people...i know its a joke, but technically when they've been allowed to re-enter society....i see no reason why their should forfeit their voting rights b/c of their past:Thumbs:

[flavorflav]

I think you should take time and go visit some of these felons who deserve a second chance. Many of whom are anti American. They belong to extremist groups. Many of which are envolved in very large networks that work toward underminding the country and the laws in which it is based upon. Its true that all felons are not the same. However here in EKY we have the opertunity to learn about a cross section of our society that most of us never even knew existed.

It would tick me off if i had done my time required by the GOVERNMENT and they wouldn't allow me to vote even though i'm a functioning citizen in society again.....it makes these extremists you talk about have more of point to their recruits if they are recruiting this disenfranchised block of people....so maybe a 2nd chance isn't a bad thing when you think about it....hh:

[nky]

If you've paid your debt to society why shouldn't you be able to earn your voting rights back....the point of prison is to rehabilitate these people...i know its a joke, but technically when they've been allowed to re-enter society....i see no reason why their should forfeit their voting rights b/c of their past:Thumbs:

again there is a way get a perdon

[Hoot Gibson]

People who have done their time - all of it, including probation - should regain their privilege to vote without having to petition their government.

[Matman]

People who have done their time - all of it, including probation - should regain their privilege to vote without having to petition their government.

Why? Why should they regain their right to vote? Even after they have comitted crimes against the government. We are not talking about people who have PIs. We are talking about felons.

[Matman]

:redboxer:

well i was being nice when i said that, but i'm just as qualified as you when it comes to looking at the facts and the inner workings of the prison system and giving my opinion :yikes:...working at McDonald's doesn't mean you know how to make burgers better than anyone...just means that's what you get paid to do...since you work at corrections facility i'm sure you have unique knowledge and i can respect that, but that doesn't mean i can't learn and find out for myself either....our prison system is a complete mess and needs an overhaul..my whole point in my original message which for whatever reason you don't want to talk about is felons depending on the situation deserve to get back their voting rights once they've left prison....Research shows that 60% of people in state prisons who are serving time for a drug offense have no prior history of violence or any significant selling activity....why once they get out should they lose that right...i didn't say lockdowns happen EASY....i gave situations that could be casue for a lock down and those are some...like i said every prison is different and my tour of one particular facilty...a lockdown did happen b/c of a messy bed....so it can be that EASY....does it happen consistently....no, but it does happen....i didn't have to work there to know that....street gangs are more a problem for their society when they re-enter it than they are national threat to U.S. security...like i said before they are a threat to whatever neighborhood they go back too but that's more of indictment of the whole entire prison system in general...as for islam...the religion itself can be a message of peace or a destructive weapon of hate. Clearly the peaceful part is better when dealing with inmates..Overall, the total extent of the infiltration of the prison systems remains unknown..obviousy there is recruiting go on, but like i said before there is nothing that shows anything that is a threat to the gov't....if this there is a threat to our national security, why has there not been a single successful terror attack been carried out since 9/11? Furthermore, why is it that the ten Muslim clerics of the BoP, products of the ISNA – an organization allegedly linked to extremism and terrorism - were cleared of terrorist ties and billed as moderate Muslims.....did the FBI screw that up? maybe? my whole point to begin with was voting rights depending on the crime and futhermore you can't deny someone the right to vote b/c of their religion...a christion felon and a muslim felon deserve the same right if they are allowed to vote...

The guy that makes hamburgers at McDonalds might not make the best hamburger but he still knows more about making hamburgers than the guy who just read an article about it. So tell me why you think they deserve their right to vote. I mean you keep saying they should have it back..Why? What benifit would it serve.
Also you are correct about street gangs. However you are looking at it in the present without any reguards to what can happen. When we put terrorist inmates in with the gangs. They develop access to a very complicated network right here in the US.

[Matman]

Crimes commonly considered to be felonies include, but are not limited to: aggravated assault and/or battery, arson, burglary, illegal drug use/sales, grand theft, kidnapping, robbery, murder, and rape.
If we give them the right to vote where does it stop. Should they have the right to a fire arm, the right to hold a public office, or the right to hold any job they want no matter what the level of security is envolved.

[pagan]

The guy that makes hamburgers at McDonalds might not make the best hamburger but he still knows more about making hamburgers than the guy who just read an article about it. So tell me why you think they deserve their right to vote. I mean you keep saying they should have it back..Why? What benifit would it serve.
Also you are correct about street gangs. However you are looking at it in the present without any reguards to what can happen. When we put terrorist inmates in with the gangs. They develop access to a very complicated network right here in the US.

Well i've done more than read about it...i've been there...talked to people who have worked there and people who are inmates, but there is a lot of good info in these case studies....are you suggesting the info is bad? the studies have no merit?...many of them include interview with corrections officers...inmates...family members.....police...very informative read in my opinion.....i have said WHY i think they deserve the right to vote a few times on here.....mainly i think when a felon is released back into society that a Corrections facility or the government...all parties involved with the felon is saying he or she is capable of being a functioning citizen again.....and if they are working and living and contributing to society like everyone else then they should have a say....do you have to give it back to them right away...not necessarily.....maybe like probationary type thing where they get it back after staying out of trouble for a certain period of time...but if they are good enough for the Government to go back into our society then they are good enough to have the right to vote....i don't think taking their voting rights permanently away from them is right......also like i said before we are country of 2nd chances.....also maybe your right about the terrorist in gangs and the consequences have yet to be seen, but also since nothing has happened...its hard to determine that anything like a terrorist activity among these gangs is happening one way or another......i just don't think gang members are any different from most people outside in society when it comes to religion...they aren't many devout people anymore in america...but i'm not saying they isn't a cause for concern.....what would be your suggestion to prevent that? Also why do you think they don't deserve their voting rights back once they;ve been released back into society?

I gotta add i've really enjoyed this mini-debate....don't get a lot of thought provoking discussions on here sometimes....this has been interesting :argue:

[flavorflav]

Crimes commonly considered to be felonies include, but are not limited to: aggravated assault and/or battery, arson, burglary, illegal drug use/sales, grand theft, kidnapping, robbery, murder, and rape.
If we give them the right to vote where does it stop. Should they have the right to a fire arm, the right to hold a public office, or the right to hold any job they want no matter what the level of security is envolved.

Its stops where ever the government and the American people want it to stop....there is a big difference between owning a gun which people who shouldn't own still do anyways.....holding public office is up to the voters...and high security level jobs is up to the people that hire....a person has done their time and have been let back out into the real world....maybe certain crimes committed shouldn't have their voting rights back, but i don't think broad sweeping them all into one category is right either.....they are living free in American society and should have a say in how that society governs...if they are free then why shouldn't they get that right back? or should they have never been released to begin with?

[flavorflav]

again there is a way get a perdon

It's difficult to get a pardon....very difficult....getting the Governor's attention for a joe schmo felon can't be easy.

[Hoot Gibson]

Why? Why should they regain their right to vote? Even after they have comitted crimes against the government. We are not talking about people who have PIs. We are talking about felons.

Why should they not get their voting rights back? BTW, I meant to say that felons who have served their sentences, including parole, should get their right to vote back. Very few will use that right anyway and if they are barred from voting, liberal groups like ACORN will just register cartoon characters and room temperature bodies to make up the difference.

[Matman]

Well i've done more than read about it...i've been there...talked to people who have worked there and people who are inmates, but there is a lot of good info in these case studies....are you suggesting the info is bad? the studies have no merit?...many of them include interview with corrections officers...inmates...family members.....police...very informative read in my opinion.....i have said WHY i think they deserve the right to vote a few times on here.....mainly i think when a felon is released back into society that a Corrections facility or the government...all parties involved with the felon is saying he or she is capable of being a functioning citizen again.....and if they are working and living and contributing to society like everyone else then they should have a say....do you have to give it back to them right away...not necessarily.....maybe like probationary type thing where they get it back after staying out of trouble for a certain period of time...but if they are good enough for the Government to go back into our society then they are good enough to have the right to vote....i don't think taking their voting rights permanently away from them is right......also like i said before we are country of 2nd chances.....also maybe your right about the terrorist in gangs and the consequences have yet to be seen, but also since nothing has happened...its hard to determine that anything like a terrorist activity among these gangs is happening one way or another......i just don't think gang members are any different from most people outside in society when it comes to religion...they aren't many devout people anymore in america...but i'm not saying they isn't a cause for concern.....what would be your suggestion to prevent that? Also why do you think they don't deserve their voting rights back once they;ve been released back into society?

I gotta add i've really enjoyed this mini-debate....don't get a lot of thought provoking discussions on here sometimes....this has been interesting :argue:

Actually its not hard to determine. The gangs are working with terrorist groups. Its not something that can easily be reported on. Just a small case was a gang member from California. He spent time in a prison here on the east coast. He made contact with an extremist. (muslim...but i don't like to use the word because i'm not talking about their religion, race or ethnic group. just the group they affiliate with and claim to be) They both were released. The gang member was rearrested for bootlegging cigerettes. He would come to Ky to buy them and take them back to California to sale. Were talking about truck loads. He was sending most of the money to a terrorist training camp where it was later discovered he had spent time there after his release.

[Matman]

Its stops where ever the government and the American people want it to stop....there is a big difference between owning a gun which people who shouldn't own still do anyways.....holding public office is up to the voters...and high security level jobs is up to the people that hire....a person has done their time and have been let back out into the real world....maybe certain crimes committed shouldn't have their voting rights back, but i don't think broad sweeping them all into one category is right either.....they are living free in American society and should have a say in how that society governs...if they are free then why shouldn't they get that right back? or should they have never been released to begin with?

They aren't all in one big category. They are seperated by what the government deamed felony crimes. You say the jobs should be up to the people that hire. Well that would work if were talking about a small business. But what about the nations biggest employer , the US Government. They can't hire so leisurely. They have to have laws and rules to go by. The prison time is not the only punishment. They loose rights too.

[nky]

It's difficult to get a pardon....very difficult....getting the Governor's attention for a joe schmo felon can't be easy.

and it shouldn't be easy. These people committed a crime. They forfeited their rights when the choose to do it.

[congressman]

This is a perfect example of how the 'right to vote' is non existant, and is no where to be found in the constitution. The founders didn't intend or truly want 'democracy'. They allowed the states to determine voter eligibility, and to this day, still do. However, race, sex, ability to pay a poll tax, and age are not to be discrimatory factors (age must be a minimum of 18, although states reserve the right to lower this further.), per amendments to the constitution. I believe that states have the absolute power to decide this issue, and although I'm for allowing felons to regain their voting rights, will support either way.

The most threatening group of felons aren't actually the violent offenders, but instead, the white collar criminals. These are the ones with the most power to influence elections and legislation. Those who kill, those who deal drugs on the street corner.. not so much. Money rules in politics. And as DeepThroat made clear, "Follow the money."

--------

With that said... Kentucky paved the way for the lower age requirements.

Also, the supreme court ruled in 2000 (and earlier), that the constitution provides no constitutional right to vote, unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide election as a means to implement its power to appoint members to the Electoral College. What this says is that, the federal government isn't truly a democracy. We don't have the right to truly select our president. States determine how these electors are selected. Some states have allowed individual districts to have their voice hear, while most states give the vote of the state as a whole the final say. The only way to fix this is by amending the constitution. Of which, I'm not, and it is doubt that I will ever be, in favor of. I'm not a fan of giving more power to an already uneducated nation. Voting on looks, on party lines, because of sex, or religion... thats what we see all too often. Most people can't name the job that Hillary Clinton holds. The few who can, can't explain what the job is. Most don't know what post Nancy Pelosi holds, and fewer can name a single member of the Supreme Court. This is a national crisis... It is an emergency within and a complete failure of our education system. Basic knowledge of what you're voting for, what its consequences may be, and how the government works should be required in order to step into the voting booth. Republicans are scared to say this because it will 'offend' people... Democrats are afraid to pass it, because it will cause their party to become a footnote in American HISTORY. Politicians are way smarter than we give them credit for. Its a game, and they know how to play it. The dumber you keep the voters, the easier it is to manipulate them, and have them give up their rights and dignity as person... under the guise of 'the government will take care you' propaganda.

When 'issues' are not counted, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the greatest threat to this nation, is its very own citizenry's inability to see what the government is taking away from them. Their own soveirgnty. It brings me to tears.

This government isn't OF the people, BY the people, or FOR the people. And we have only ourselves to blame for the power grab that has taken place.

[AandB]

A felon doesn't deserve the right to vote and that's that.

[congressman]

A felon doesn't deserve the right to vote and that's that.

Thanks for clearing it up for us. :Thumbs:

[Beetle01]

Sometimes a person's punishment includes more than just jail time. I have friends who I consider very good people now, who back 5-6 years ago were involved in drugs and were convicted of felonies. They are clean good people now, but I tell them all the time they don't deserve to vote, they made their choice, even if they were younger. In this country we give people chance after chance after chance after chance to do the right thing. At some point we have to hold people responsible for their actions. Just as with a DUI, there is more to it than just fines and jail time or probation. You lose your license. With many crimes there is more to the punishment than just jail time.

I don't see you all whining about child molesters having to let people know where they live, and living so many feet from certain places. They served their time, why shouldn't they get the right to live where ever they want? If you think they should have these rules in place, then obviously you don't believe all criminals have paid their debt other than just jail time. Why are felons any different? The repeat offender rate is even higher than that of child molesters. So obviously jail time is not as effective as you may think.

[congressman]

What is the primary reason people are scared felons will vote?

And its interesting to note the hypocrisy in the laws (imagine that?)... While many states don't allow felons to vote, they DO however allow them to be voted for. So if I had a felony, and Trey Grayson did as well.. He can hold the office that I'm denied to vote for. Then he can have MUCH more power with his votes, than I could ever with mine.

So, back on the question I asked. Is it punishment that provokes peoples to oppose felons voting, or is it fear of how they'll vote? Maine and Vermont allow PRISONERS to vote.

[Beetle01]

Not all prisoners are felons congressman. I couldnt care less how they vote, but to me it seems Dem politicians pander to them, statistics show they will heavily vote for the dem party. Not surprisingly, most democrats now favor felons being given the right to vote.

Answer my question, why do you think its okay to force sex offenders to suffer through other punishments, including losing their vote, but its not okay to restrict the voting rights of all felons? Should those sex offenders be allowed to vote for a politician who will go easy on people who committed their crimes? Especially considering the repeat offender rate of felons?

Alone there are over 1 million black felons not allowed to vote.....hrmm I wonder why Dems want these people to have voting rights? Its not because they care about them, its because they want their vote to stay in office.

[Hoot Gibson]

I associate voting with good citizenship. If the goal of our justice system is to punish and rehabilitate, why would we not want felons who serve their complete sentences to be able to vote?

I am also against the registration of sex offenders. Sex offenders should not be released if they are still considered threats to society. Don't get me wrong - I am not advocating leniency for sex offenders. On the contrary, I would support the death penalty for felons convicted of committing repeated sex offenses against multiple victims. However, some sex offenders are not necessarily threats to society. Take for example a 17-year old convicted of committing statutory rape of his 15-year old girlfriend. Should that 17-year old be branded for life with the same brand applied to a convicted pedophile? I don't think so.

Another reason that I favor restoring voting privileges to felons upon completion of their sentences is that many felons are victims of over zealous prosecutors. I have personally known people in the coal industry (small mom-and-pop operators) that agreed to plea bargains after the federal government threatened to prosecute multiple family members if they did not cop a plea. So, in exchange for paying a fine and pleading guilty, a mine operator received a suspended sentence and was spared legal expenses that would have driven his family's operation into bankruptcy.

As I said in another thread, our justice system has far worse and more widespread problems than how the death penalty is applied. Not all people who are coerced to plead guilty when the government lacks evidence to convict them are innocent but I would rather see a few people escape prosecution than to have my government resort to blackmail to obtain guilty pleas.

Let's face it. Unless Democrats can set up voting booths inside prisons, very few felons would vote if given the opportunity.

[congressman]

Not all prisoners are felons congressman. I couldnt care less how they vote, but to me it seems Dem politicians pander to them, statistics show they will heavily vote for the dem party. Not surprisingly, most democrats now favor felons being given the right to vote.

Answer my question, why do you think its okay to force sex offenders to suffer through other punishments, including losing their vote, but its not okay to restrict the voting rights of all felons? Should those sex offenders be allowed to vote for a politician who will go easy on people who committed their crimes? Especially considering the repeat offender rate of felons?

Alone there are over 1 million black felons not allowed to vote.....hrmm I wonder why Dems want these people to have voting rights? Its not because they care about them, its because they want their vote to stay in office.

I'm the furthest thing away from being a democrat. So, if you're trying to draw a parralel between the me and a dem, you can stop now. :thanks:

And now, your questions (of which I will always answer, unlike most on this site.)

I have no problem with a convicted felon voting, including sex offenders. I also am against the sex offender registry, sex offender free zones, as well as cruel and unusual punishment such as castration. Yes, I'm also saying that a convicted felon who has been to prison, and paroled, (may also consider probation?), should have the ability to vote for a congressman who will be weaker on punishment for the category of crime he was convicted of. And, considering the repeat rate of felons. That what you wanted? :Thumbs:

And to clear up the matter, so you understand. Vermont and Maine allow CONVICTED FELON PRISONERS to vote. And in normal language, most always, prisoners are those who have committed felonies, while jails are for lesser charges.

Any other questions?

[dbcooper]

I would be for the process of a felon regaining voting rights at the discretion of a sitting circuit judge in the jurisdiction of the committed offense with the informed invitation of participation of the victim of the crime.
In the criminal justice system I know well, you'd have more offenders sign up for a sex change than pursue this option.