[ronald_reagan]

How do you know how many total lives were lost in the aftermath of a radioactive explosion? And, let's say it did save lives. Let's say North Korea or Iran suggest that they want nuclear weapons as a way to save lives (peace through strength). Is American history such a tale of unmitigated goodness that we can take high enough ground to lecture them on nuclear capacity?

Thats a good arguement, and I almost played devils advocate in my own piece above, but I didn't want to give you any ammo. LOL

I'll get you some hard numbers on the deaths caused, but it surely didn't reach the epic proportions that the Chinese expereinced at the hands of these madmen. I'm thinking the estimate is 400,000, with about 1 million defects. Its horrible I know, but I truly believe that more lives were saved than taken.. as do most. I think you would agree with me.

But I also agree with you in a sense, that it sets a dangerous precedent and example for other nations to follow. Peace through strength in my opinion only works with civilized nations. The former soviet union who was our co-equal, if forced to compete would lose ultimately and as nationalistic as the nation and union had became, they'd bow down gracefully rather than spark a world war. However, nations like Iran and N. Korea, have nothing to lose. They have no economy, no outside support, nothing.... nukes in the hands of these men is dangerous. We can have all the strength we won't... but stopping them from using them is nearly impossible.

Good post! In fact, if my reputation level was high enough, you'd get props from me!

[thecavemaster]

Good post (above)...

[ronald_reagan]

Good post (above)...

Cavemaster,

I think you and i aren't too far apart when it comes to most issues. We both want what is right. We just disagree from time to time about WHAT is right.

Ya know?

I think we just got off on the wrong foot...... but lets not mistake or confuse that with backing down... because we'll surely have our battles in the future. but lets please keep an open mind and listen to one another. thats my prayer.

[DevilsWin]

Lets just say one confession he made out of those listed, saved 1 life... it wouldn't have been worth it to pour some water over his covered face?

There's a difference between you and I... I believe in lesser evils when needed. Which is why I vote republican often.

We will never know.

[ronald_reagan]

We will never know.

I had a good feeling you'd misinterpret the question.... so let me make it more clear. Let me start though with a repeat... WOULD IT BE WORTH POURING WATER OVER THE FACE OF SOMEONE TO SAVE LIVES??

Now let me make it more personal.. would you pour water over someone's face if you thought your mom, wife or daughters life could be saved by doing son?? Lets see how Michael Dukakis you really are... :confused:

[ronald_reagan]

We will never know.

and the question wasn't 'would we ever know?'

it was, would it be worth it...:Clap:

I await your answer, as do many others.

[DevilsWin]

I had a good feeling you'd misinterpret the question.... so let me make it more clear. Let me start though with a repeat... WOULD IT BE WORTH POURING WATER OVER THE FACE OF SOMEONE TO SAVE LIVES??

Now let me make it more personal.. would you pour water over someone's face if you thought your mom, wife or daughters life could be saved by doing son?? Lets see how Michael Dukakis you really are...

OK, you got me. Yes! "Pouring Water Over Someones Face To Save Lives Would Be, Worht It" !

Ohh I feel so Dirty. Yet, so liberated at the same time.:lmao:

[DevilsWin]

and the question wasn't 'would we ever know?'

it was, would it be worth it...:Clap:

I await your answer, as do many others.

What we will never know is whether or not we could have gotten that same information without torture.hh:

[ronald_reagan]

your silence speaks volumes.

[DevilsWin]

What silence.

[ronald_reagan]

What silence.

shhhh, you're ruining it...

do you want me to ask again?

[thecavemaster]

Pouring water over someone's face? The person repeatedly thinks they are going to die. You blindfold someone, put them on a helicopter, simulate the machine going up and up and up. You repeatedly act like you are going to push them out and let them explode on the ground. "But I didn't hurt them." What kind of psychic plane do you exist on? I always wanted to believe that America was better than that.

[ronald_reagan]

Pouring water over someone's face? The person repeatedly thinks they are going to die. You blindfold someone, put them on a helicopter, simulate the machine going up and up and up. You repeatedly act like you are going to push them out and let them explode on the ground. "But I didn't hurt them." What kind of psychic plane do you exist on? I always wanted to believe that America was better than that.

ok,

same question for you...

if you knew that by doing so, to one human being (not killing or hurting them physically), it would save hundreds and even thousands of lives.... you'd take the 'high road'?

if the only person that could save hundreds of lives were you...... you'd choose to bet the 'better' guy while the rest of the people just roast in a ball of fire?

I've always thought America to be BETTER than that myself.

[thecavemaster]

If I could have stopped 9/11 by waterboarding would I have done it? Probably. However, this is a specific case, an assumption of surety. Your other assumption is based on a certain type of propoganda than cannot be checked by an independent arbitor of fact, namely that torture has gleaned information that has stopped other attacks.

[ronald_reagan]

If I could have stopped 9/11 by waterboarding would I have done it? Probably. However, this is a specific case, an assumption of surety. Your other assumption is based on a certain type of propoganda than cannot be checked by an independent arbitor of fact, namely that torture has gleaned information that has stopped other attacks.

When you catch someone as high up as KSM or bin Laden... every means of gaining information on future plots, should be used. KSM gave us many plots and info about them... I'd rather be wrong about waterboarding, then have to look some 20,000 grieving family members in the eye and explain to them that I didn't do every possible to stop an attack.

But why are you now saying that its acceptable, in 'some cases'? This goes against everything you believe in... becoming what you hate. ?? Its interesting.

[thecavemaster]

Here's the interesting thing: my thought is this: I'm on one of the planes. I overhear something that lets me know hijack is imminent. If I can stop it, I do. However, "what if" scenarios are limited in their ability to clarify. "Hey, buddy, you once visited an Osama Bin Laden web site. Come on in here and get your "water in your face... I bet you be a terrorist."

[ronald_reagan]

Here's the interesting thing: my thought is this: I'm on one of the planes. I overhear something that lets me know hijack is imminent. If I can stop it, I do. However, "what if" scenarios are limited in their ability to clarify. "Hey, buddy, you once visited an Osama Bin Laden web site. Come on in here and get your "water in your face... I bet you be a terrorist."

Thats not what we do. Its posts like that, and tv personalities that say similiar things that cause people to believe such foolishness.

I also wasn't talking about restraining someone on an airplane in an attempt to save a life.

I was talking about waterboarding, point blank. You said you'd would waterboard someone if you could stop 9/11.... I have to wonder why the sudden reversal, as you've said numerous times that it is both torture, and NEVER acceptable.

[thecavemaster]

"Foolishness"? Have you researched some of the stories of "detainees" at Gitmo? At AG? How in the dark is the majority of the American public? "Now, y'all, just go ahead and go to the mall and get you an Elmo doll. Leave all this hard terror stuff to us." Get real, man. Not saying that there aren't a lot of religious poison people at Gitmo et al. But casting aside and pulling on the red white and blue righteousness robe? Come on, man...

[ronald_reagan]

"Foolishness"? Have you researched some of the stories of "detainees" at Gitmo? At AG? How in the dark is the majority of the American public? "Now, y'all, just go ahead and go to the mall and get you an Elmo doll. Leave all this hard terror stuff to us." Get real, man. Not saying that there aren't a lot of religious poison people at Gitmo et al. But casting aside and pulling on the red white and blue righteousness robe? Come on, man...

Sure. Its the same stuff that goes on in our prisons HERE. Neither is acceptable. The only difference is, they get 'blessed meals' that make ME jealous..... lemon pepper chicken, rice, etc..

That still doesn't answer the question. Why the sudden reversal??

[thecavemaster]

Explain how acting in a CLEAR and IMMEDIATE threat situation (on a plane and you KNOW FOR A FACT that it's about to be hijacked, as in the Pennsylvania crash on 9/11) is a DIRECT EQUIVALENT to rounding up folks and torturing them on the negatable ASSUMPTION that they have needful information... ?

[ronald_reagan]

Explain how acting in a CLEAR and IMMEDIATE threat situation (on a plane and you KNOW FOR A FACT that it's about to be hijacked, as in the Pennsylvania crash on 9/11) is a DIRECT EQUIVALENT to rounding up folks and torturing them on the negatable ASSUMPTION that they have needful information... ?

That is not what was said.

You can't waterboard someone on a plane, and why would you anyways if you've got them captured and stopped the threat. This is getting funnier by the minute, and post.

You said and made it clear, torture is torture and never acceptable. Now you're giving exceptions. You're becoming what you hate.

We don't round up folks and waterboard them. KSM was the MASTERMIND of 9/11 and many other bombings and terrorist attacks.... You think that he stopped with the 'last' one, and had no information on anything else? Get real.

I asked if you'd waterboard to save lives, you said yes. Thats the only reason I'd ever condone it myself. Its not a recreational activity... as KSM could testify to. :Thumbs:

[DevilsWin]

That is not what was said.

You can't waterboard someone on a plane, and why would you anyways if you've got them captured and stopped the threat. This is getting funnier by the minute, and post.

You said and made it clear, torture is torture and never acceptable. Now you're giving exceptions. You're becoming what you hate.

We don't round up folks and waterboard them. KSM was the MASTERMIND of 9/11 and many other bombings and terrorist attacks.... You think that he stopped with the 'last' one, and had no information on anything else? Get real.

I asked if you'd waterboard to save lives, you said yes. Thats the only reason I'd ever condone it myself. Its not a recreational activity... as KSM could testify to. :Thumbs:

And you know this how? Do you work for the CIA? Are you a State Department Official?:booo:

[ronald_reagan]

And you know this how? Do you work for the CIA? Are you a State Department Official?:booo:

Not the CIA, or the State Dept.

Do you believe we dropped 2 atomic bombs in Japan? :confused:

Do you believe their was a man named Jesus? :confused:

Do you believe the Holocaust happened?

Or that there were once live dinosaurs on the face of earth?

What about JWB killing Lincoln?

Or Burr killing Hamilton?

Well unless you dropped them, met him, rounded up the jews, played fetch in your back yard, was at a play in Fords theatre, or watched the match... you're doing the same thing that I'm doing. Trusting what you've been told.

No one is claiming that waterboarding is a commonly used scenario. No one. However, the more I think about it.. it wouldn't be that bad of a thing. We do it to every special op, and CIA interagator in our forces and government already. I guess if we do it to our own, we ought to share a little more of our 'culture' with the terrorists.

Thank God KSM cracked.

So when are you going to agree with cavemaster and say that it is acceptable from time to time? :confused:

[thecavemaster]

The United States Of America should not engage in the practice of torture. If private citizens of limited conscience should desire to torture, they should not be allowed to have puppies, goldfish, or kittens. If there are circumstance where I would torture another, that only shows the limited scope of my own humanity...it proves no universal point, RR... unless one continually mistakes exceptions and frailty for universal truth...oh, excuse me, RR... didn't know you were in the room...

[DevilsWin]

Not the CIA, or the State Dept.

Do you believe we dropped 2 atomic bombs in Japan? :confused:

Do you believe their was a man named Jesus? :confused:

Do you believe the Holocaust happened?

Or that there were once live dinosaurs on the face of earth?

What about JWB killing Lincoln?

Or Burr killing Hamilton?

Well unless you dropped them, met him, rounded up the jews, played fetch in your back yard, was at a play in Fords theatre, or watched the match... you're doing the same thing that I'm doing. Trusting what you've been told.

No one is claiming that waterboarding is a commonly used scenario. No one. However, the more I think about it.. it wouldn't be that bad of a thing. We do it to every special op, and CIA interagator in our forces and government already. I guess if we do it to our own, we ought to share a little more of our 'culture' with the terrorists.

Thank God KSM cracked.

So when are you going to agree with cavemaster and say that it is acceptable from time to time? :confused:

For starters, you don't dictate to me which way this conversation goes nor do you decide what questions I need to answer.

Secondly, Your comparisons are not only ridiculous but historical facts that are not debatable.

In closing, RR, You and People Like You are the cause for all the bombing and suffering in the Earth's Past Present and Future.
It is people like YOU that have crerated a culture of fear. Because you never know who's out to get you. As ray Davies once said, "Paranoia will Destroy ya". So good luck with your mental disorder.

BTW you seem to be very demanding of answers to your questions. I asked you a week or so ago if you had served and you spouted your "false and evasive" answer. Pretending to be RR himself.
I'm here to tell you that I like Vundy33 have served overseas in a war for the United States.

Now I'll ask you once again, who have you served besides yourself in the time you've spent on this Earth?
Until you give an honest answer to this question you're nothing more than a spineless self serving paranoid weasel in my eyes and I'm sure many others as well.

[vundy33]

Woah. Nice post.

[Ring'Em Up]

For starters, you don't dictate to me which way this conversation goes nor do you decide what questions I need to answer.

Secondly, Your comparisons are not only ridiculous but historical facts that are not debatable.

In closing, RR, You and People Like You are the cause for all the bombing and suffering in the Earth's Past Present and Future.
It is people like YOU that have crerated a culture of fear. Because you never know who's out to get you. As ray Davies once said, "Paranoia will Destroy ya". So good luck with your mental disorder.

BTW you seem to be very demanding of answers to your questions. I asked you a week or so ago if you had served and you spouted your "false and evasive" answer. Pretending to be RR himself.
I'm here to tell you that I like Vundy33 have served overseas in a war for the United States.

Now I'll ask you once again, who have you served besides yourself in the time you've spent on this Earth?
Until you give an honest answer to this question you're nothing more than a spineless self serving paranoid weasel in my eyes and I'm sure many others as well.

Completely agree with everything, Devils. Except the serving. I never have, but my only brother spent the first 18 months of the initial Iraq War over there.
Why do people continue to play this guys games? I admit, he will make some valid points, but then completely ruin and discredit them with some absurd remarks later on. How bad are things when you try and live thru the soul of a deceased? And to beat that...on an internet forum?! If he so admires the man, great, we all have our heroes. But the attitude he displays on here, only disrespects RR, instead of showing respect for him, in my opinion.

[Chuck Taylor]

Good post (above)...

Ditto. Great post.

[Chuck Taylor]

For starters, you don't dictate to me which way this conversation goes nor do you decide what questions I need to answer.

Secondly, Your comparisons are not only ridiculous but historical facts that are not debatable.

In closing, RR, You and People Like You are the cause for all the bombing and suffering in the Earth's Past Present and Future.
It is people like YOU that have crerated a culture of fear. Because you never know who's out to get you. As ray Davies once said, "Paranoia will Destroy ya". So good luck with your mental disorder.

BTW you seem to be very demanding of answers to your questions. I asked you a week or so ago if you had served and you spouted your "false and evasive" answer. Pretending to be RR himself.
I'm here to tell you that I like Vundy33 have served overseas in a war for the United States.

Now I'll ask you once again, who have you served besides yourself in the time you've spent on this Earth?
Until you give an honest answer to this question you're nothing more than a spineless self serving paranoid weasel in my eyes and I'm sure many others as well.

I know Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan was a friend of mine. Sir, you're no Ronald Reagan.

[ronald_reagan]

For starters, you don't dictate to me which way this conversation goes nor do you decide what questions I need to answer.

Secondly, Your comparisons are not only ridiculous but historical facts that are not debatable.

In closing, RR, You and People Like You are the cause for all the bombing and suffering in the Earth's Past Present and Future.
It is people like YOU that have crerated a culture of fear. Because you never know who's out to get you. As ray Davies once said, "Paranoia will Destroy ya". So good luck with your mental disorder.

BTW you seem to be very demanding of answers to your questions. I asked you a week or so ago if you had served and you spouted your "false and evasive" answer. Pretending to be RR himself.
I'm here to tell you that I like Vundy33 have served overseas in a war for the United States.

Now I'll ask you once again, who have you served besides yourself in the time you've spent on this Earth?
Until you give an honest answer to this question you're nothing more than a spineless self serving paranoid weasel in my eyes and I'm sure many others as well.

Wow. Incredible. Great post.

I haven't served this nation by way of putting on a uniform. And to you and Vundy (whom I respect tremendously) deserve every bit of praise that could ever be given, for doing as you have done. You both are remarkable examples of why this nation is great, and reasons why we have our freedom. Again, I thank you for your service. (let me also address those without humor and personality who truly believe that i try to 'be reagan'... its a running gag/joke. if you dont' get it, ignore it.)

Let me respond to your post though with humility and respect, ever how hard it may be after such a slanderous and vicious attack.

I don't dictate anything, other than the debate that I started. So yes, when it comes to THIS debate, I DO dictate what is asked, and where the conversation is led. If you wish to change the topic, refuse to answer, or otherwise talk about my character.. there's a simple 'out' for you. Its called a "new thread".

As I've clearly laid out above, I haven't served. I can't serve to be perfectly honest, and if you want to know why, please PM me. I'd enjoy explaining why.

You, my friend, are the reason that radicals that want to destroy this nation are suceeding in their efforts. You give them reason to believe that we are weak. Every bit of blame can be placed on the doorstep of America in your mind. Not once do I recall (I have a bad memory though), you ever placing blame for the acts of the terrorists... upon the terrorists. Its ridiculous.

So who do I serve? Someone that obviously you've never met... and probably won't.. (the following will be a 'fear-for-your-life-republican-kind-of-comment'), until those you don't blame actually end up ending your own life...

God.

I serve him.

Now again, who do you serve? Me.