[ronald_reagan]

Here are some facts:

-Every morning, the House of Reps open with Prayer.
-Every morning, The Senate Chamber opens with prayer.
-Both the Senate and House have Chaplains for to lead prayer, and to help spiritually guide its members.
-The Supreme Court opens with prayer each morning.
-Behind the Supreme Court bench, we see God handing down the 10 commandments, carved in the wall. (along with other religious figures).
-John Adams said, "This government is for only a religious people, and for all others would be inadequate".
-Our Motto is "In God we trust"
-Our pledge includes "one nation under God"
-Our military has several hundreds, if not thousands of chaplains.
-Christmas is a national holiday.


Yet, our kids can't have organized prayer at school.
Religious groups are typically blocked from using government buildings.
Crosses are banned from government land (sometimes).
If I go to school to become a preacher, the government won't pay for it.

What has this world came to? As Ronald Reagan once said, "A nation no longer under God.. is a nation, gone UNDER". Why do we do this?

I don't want a "church of England". or a western Vatican City. But religious freedom is under attack and these attacks must be dealt with.

Opinions?

[BlackcatAlum]

I agree... Kids at least need to be able to say the "Pledge of Allegiance", it's almost like there wanting kids to be atheist or something, and it makes me sick!

[Crossbones]

I completely agree. Christians religious freedoms are being tried. I personally believe it to only be Christians. I read a news article a while back that stated muslims had the right to stop school and pray to allah, while Christians can't have prayer in school. I'll try to find the article and post it. As the old saying goes, "the world has gone to **** in a handbasket."

[ronald_reagan]

i don't think personally that its the role of the government to instill morals and religion into our kids, so i'd not want the school indoctrinating them. However, allowing a child to say a prayer? Thats a problem????

I believe strongly that religious studies though should be taught in school. I think its important for kids to know who jesus was, especially jesus the philosopher. I also think that kids should be taught about the basic tenets of the major religions, other than christianity. These classes should be taught in a non-denominational way.. but as historical facts and philisophical intentions.

I read a study not long ago that said the majority of high school students thought that Sodom and Gomorrah were married????

[ronald_reagan]

I completely agree. Christians religious freedoms are being tried. I personally believe it to only be Christians. I read a news article a while back that stated muslims had the right to stop school and pray to allah, while Christians can't have prayer in school. I'll try to find the article and post it. As the old saying goes, "the world has gone to **** in a handbasket."

I see these stories daily. Its just absolutely mind blowing! :mad:

[Crossbones]

I agree... Kids at least need to be able to say the "Pledge of Allegiance", it's almost like there wanting kids to be atheist or something, and it makes me sick!

That's the problem in my opinion. Atheist have more say than people want to admit. The government is trying to play both sides of the fence instead of doing whats right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to take away their freedoms of choice, but what I am saying is don't take away mine. If atheist don't want to pray, then don't, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. That is my choice, don't infringe on that. If muslims want to pray to allah, then by all means, that is their right. When I pray, I will pray for them to find the only true God and that they will find peace through Jesus Christ.

[BlackcatAlum]

That's the problem in my opinion. Atheist have more say than people want to admit. The government is trying to play both sides of the fence instead of doing whats right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to take away their freedoms of choice, but what I am saying is don't take away mine. If atheist don't want to pray, then don't, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. That is my choice, don't infringe on that. If muslims want to pray to allah, then by all means, that is their right. When I pray, I will pray for them to find the only true God and that they will find peace through Jesus Christ.

Amen.

[ronald_reagan]

That's the problem in my opinion. Atheist have more say than people want to admit. The government is trying to play both sides of the fence instead of doing whats right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to take away their freedoms of choice, but what I am saying is don't take away mine. If atheist don't want to pray, then don't, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. That is my choice, don't infringe on that. If muslims want to pray to allah, then by all means, that is their right. When I pray, I will pray for them to find the only true God and that they will find peace through Jesus Christ.

Reagan once said...

Now there's a movement to have "In God we Trust" taken off our coins....... and at the rate we're going, those words will be the only thing of value left on them.

[vundy33]

Thats one thing I noticed when I moved out west. Schools in Kentucky can't say the Pledge and schools out here can.

[ronald_reagan]

Thats one thing I noticed when I moved out west. Schools in Kentucky can't say the Pledge and schools out here can.

That may have something to with court rulings. When a district rules upon something, it only affects that district itself. Until the supreme court rules on something, its not universal. Odd huh?

[vundy33]

That may have something to with court rulings. When a district rules upon something, it only affects that district itself. Until the supreme court rules on something, its not universal. Odd huh?

Ahh, didn't know that. I just though it was controlled by the state.

[ronald_reagan]

Ahh, didn't know that. I just though it was controlled by the state.

That could be the case as well. I guess I shouldn't have referred to the case of prayer itself. But any issue that a federal court rules upon, only governs the district itself to the best of my knowledge. Thus the supreme court has to rule to make it binding nationwide.

I should do some more studying on this before I speak so sure of it....

[thecavemaster]

"When you pray, go into a secret place..." As long as a bathroom stall exists in a public school, I can follow the teaching of Jesus. I can pray. True story: a group of students wanted to lead the school at an assembly in a prayer after 9/11. I told them that they were welcome to gather in a large dressing room and pray together. They declined. "To be seen of men..."

[Watchful Eye]

I must have read that section of the Bible wrong or maybe my Sunday school teachers lied. I was taught that each person needs to first: declare Jesus as the Son of God, Second: accept him into your life, third: develop a PERSONAL relationship with him.
What part of any of those three things needs to be performed in a group setting?

[More Cowbell]

I am a strong believer in the government keeping their nose out areas where it doesn't belong, aside from protecting individual freedoms. Which is why I don't agree with having a group prayer at school where students may feel pressured to partcipate.

I remember growing up when we had Bible teachers come to school and teach lessons from the Scriptures. However, now that I am older, I can't believe that was allowed. It was certainly not part of the normal classroom curriculum, and it would likely be considered offensive to non-Christians.

As long as the rights of all students to pray on their own is protected, that's good enough for me. I have strong Christian beliefs, and I can still pray regardless of whether someone else leads or not. I may try to tell you about the gospel and love of Christ, but I won't do it in a situation where you don't have the freedom to refuse to listen, if you so choose.

[ronald_reagan]

I think the idea I was trying to convey wasn't done so successfully.

I'm talking more about how the government only attacks christianity, and typically only at the school age kids level.

Read once again, the list of things above that the government does, allows, pays for, and endorses... then look at their hypocrisy when it comes to 10 kids saying prayer together in homeroom.

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

i don't think personally that its the role of the government to instill morals and religion into our kids, so i'd not want the school indoctrinating them. However, allowing a child to say a prayer? Thats a problem????

I believe strongly that religious studies though should be taught in school. I think its important for kids to know who jesus was, especially jesus the philosopher. I also think that kids should be taught about the basic tenets of the major religions, other than christianity. These classes should be taught in a non-denominational way.. but as historical facts and philisophical intentions.

I read a study not long ago that said the majority of high school students thought that Sodom and Gomorrah were married????

As long as there are final exams there will be prayer in school. And theres not a thing they can do to stop it.

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

i don't think personally that its the role of the government to instill morals and religion into our kids, so i'd not want the school indoctrinating them. However, allowing a child to say a prayer? Thats a problem????

I believe strongly that religious studies though should be taught in school. I think its important for kids to know who jesus was, especially jesus the philosopher. I also think that kids should be taught about the basic tenets of the major religions, other than christianity. These classes should be taught in a non-denominational way.. but as historical facts and philisophical intentions.

I read a study not long ago that said the majority of high school students thought that Sodom and Gomorrah were married????

As long as there are final exams there will be prayer in school. And theres not a thing they can do to stop it. LOL!!!

[ronald_reagan]

As long as there are final exams there will be prayer in school. And theres not a thing they can do to stop it. LOL!!!

I remember my sr year of high school, our guidance counselor made a triumphant message over closed circuit tv... we had a few students pass away over a short period of time, and many parents of students (including my own father)... and he got on there and was talkin about how we should reflect upon our lives and support one another and then he said... "i may get fired for this..."... (quoting from polycarp, "my lord has been there for me for XX years... i'm not turning my back on him.. NOW")

and then bowed his head... and started a prayer.... It was emotional.

All of us know, the founders would never object to such a thing.

You should read Newt Gingrich's book, "God in America" (i think?). Its got a section in it.. "God in America: A tour of our nations capitol." It shows all the references by the fathers of this country and how this nation was here to serve God, and should always look to god for its guidance.

[thecavemaster]

They were Deists. Why is it subtle distinctions that make big differences always get shoved to the side? The Gospel that Thomas Jefferson read...he removed everything in it that could not be explained by human reason...and that's what he read. He was a Deist.
"DEISM: the belief, based solely on reason, that God created the universe and then after setting it in motion, abandoned it, assumed no control over life, exerted no influence on natural laws, and gave no supernatural revelation" (American Heritage Desk Dictionary).

So, who should we pray to i public? The "god" of Jerry Falwell? The "god" of Ben Franklin? OR, should we leave it the freedom of each individual human conscience? (which is what the Founder's intended).

[ronald_reagan]

They were Deists. Why is it subtle distinctions that make big differences always get shoved to the side? The Gospel that Thomas Jefferson read...he removed everything in it that could not be explained by human reason...and that's what he read. He was a Deist.
"DEISM: the belief, based solely on reason, that God created the universe and then after setting it in motion, abandoned it, assumed no control over life, exerted no influence on natural laws, and gave no supernatural revelation" (American Heritage Desk Dictionary).

So, who should we pray to i public? The "god" of Jerry Falwell? The "god" of Ben Franklin? OR, should we leave it the freedom of each individual human conscience? (which is what the Founder's intended).

James Madison (father of the constitution): Member of the Anglican Church

George Washington: Member of the Anglican Church (quotes: "What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ", "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible", "O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.")

John Jay: Member of the Anglican Church

John Adams: A Unitarian (belief in God as one, Jesus as prophet, and Godly example) (Quote: "We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus)

Alexander Hamilton: Member of the Anglican Church, set up a society called the Christian Constitutional Society with a stated goal: "The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States."

Nearly all founders were members of the Anglican Church, and all believed in Jesus Christ, and nearly all proclaimed the bible as the basis for this nations belief system.

Diest. Thats the one thing I'm more sure of than anything... and that is to say... the founders as a whole were NOT. There were some however. Most just happen to disagree with you on this.

I have biographies on about 15 of the founders. I also have quotes from most that you request, other than anti christ franklin lol

[thecavemaster]

I can name you any number of people who attend church but don't toe the "party" line when it comes to beliefs. I am suggesting that the masterminds of our key documents which outline key principles were Deists. A study of Puritan thought as opposed to Franklin, Jefferson, etc. demonstrates the development in the direction of Deism.

[ronald_reagan]

I can name you any number of people who attend church but don't toe the "party" line when it comes to beliefs. I am suggesting that the masterminds of our key documents which outline key principles were Deists. A study of Puritan thought as opposed to Franklin, Jefferson, etc. demonstrates the development in the direction of Deism.

What documents? The Constitution? The Magna Carta? The Federalist papers? These are our guides for our government. The writers of those.... BIG TIME CHRISTIANS. Not diests. Anglican Episcopalian.

The founders themselves were christians, wanted a christian nation... Washington said, that we are a christian people, with only slight differences. (talking about denominationalism)

[ronald_reagan]

Thats your problem cavemaster.... You use the 'party' line thing too often. You are seriously under the impression that we HAVE to believe the same things if we're a member of any group of persons. This is entirely not the case. As Christians, there's over 34,000 denominations. Within denominations, we have different personal views.

But it was be insane to even suggest that those who want this nation (by speech, letter, and personal prayer) to be a christian nation, with no KING BUT CHRIST.....attend church regularly, and speak of their faith often... would 'secretly' be diests. Its not plausible. But then again, stranger things have happened. John Hancock still signs my dividends check.

[thecavemaster]

As I understand it, Thomas Jefferson was the "critical mass" mind (Declaration of Independence/Constitution). I think a lot of Deists would have said that they were Judaeo/Christian in belief. I also think that, given the history of England, freedom of conscience was a HUGE piece of the foundational pie.

[ronald_reagan]

As I understand it, Thomas Jefferson was the "critical mass" mind (Declaration of Independence/Constitution). I think a lot of Deists would have said that they were Judaeo/Christian in belief. I also think that, given the history of England, freedom of conscience was a HUGE piece of the foundational pie.

Thomas Jefferson was not the 'critical' component in the constitution. That would be James Madison.

[ronald_reagan]

Thomas Jefferson was in France at the time, and didn't attend it... and according to some, didn't support it. Nor was he involved with the lead up to the Constitution, The Articles of the Confederation.

[thecavemaster]

Since that is not my understanding of the philosophical underpinning of these documents, I'll have to do some research. Of course, "politics is the art of compromise," so no one person got to dictate, but I'll do a little digging and get back...

[thecavemaster]

"Although Thomas Jefferson was in France serving as US Minister when the Federal Constitution was written in 1787, he was able to greatly influence the development of the federal government through his avid correspondence." (government site dedicated to Jefferson)

[ronald_reagan]

"Although Thomas Jefferson was in France serving as US Minister when the Federal Constitution was written in 1787, he was able to greatly influence the development of the federal government through his avid correspondence." (government site dedicated to Jefferson)

It also says that Clinton was a passionate man who cared about his country and that George Bush served in honorably in the ANG.

The point is, he wrote some letters. James Madison, hated him, called him an infedel... and wrote the CONSTITUTION. Read the Federalist papers and this debate will be over. Thats all you have to do to have some peace of mind. Read Madison's biography. In fact, read the religious views of ALL of the fathers. Go here.

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm