[ronald_reagan]

Why do people who are against criminalizing tobacco work to try and lower the number of people who choose to smoke? .

Thats my exact point!

Its a life saving measure to do so. So to say that you want to decrease abortions, but that its not 'life saving' to do so.. it just doesn't make logical sense.

[thecavemaster]

Believing it to be a free exercise of conscience, the anti-smoking advocate does not argue for the criminalization of smoking; however, believing it be a detrimental choice, the advocate works to reduce smoking numbers. There is no paradox there, unless one's mind cannot wrap around multi-layered and faceted issues.

[ronald_reagan]

Believing it to be a free exercise of conscience, the anti-smoking advocate does not argue for the criminalization of smoking; however, believing it be a detrimental choice, the advocate works to reduce smoking numbers. There is no paradox there, unless one's mind cannot wrap around multi-layered and faceted issues.

:confused:

[ronald_reagan]

Believing it to be a free exercise of conscience, the anti-smoking advocate does not argue for the criminalization of smoking; however, believing it be a detrimental choice, the advocate works to reduce smoking numbers. There is no paradox there, unless one's mind cannot wrap around multi-layered and faceted issues.

Anti smoking advocates DO argue for criminalization of it...

There's several states considering banning it within the entire boundaries of jurisdiction?

I'm for criminalization of it myself, as long as medicare still covers the costs associated.

Where are you going with this?

[thecavemaster]

Those who favor a woman's right to choose may well believe that choosing abortion is not an optimal choice, so they work to reduce unplanned, unwanted pregnancies. Also (you didn't suggest this) I find the idea that a woman is alone responsible for an unplanned pregnancy to be "rub stick together make fire" archaic.

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

A man and a woman wake up pregnant. If men carried the fetus, abortion would be a sacred right of passage.

I agree it takes 2 to tango but the woman can have an abortion and the FATHER of the child doesnt have any say so in it what so ever so whats youre point? Being that men cant carry children I guess thats just something you or I will never know now isnt it?

[ronald_reagan]

Those who favor a woman's right to choose may well believe that choosing abortion is not an optimal choice, so they work to reduce unplanned, unwanted pregnancies.

Thats just pure pandering. Either its right or wrong. Its not 'so-so'.

If you think its NOT the optimal choice, then its the wrong choice, and there's a reason that you believe that. And it has to come down to right and wrong. And those who believe it, obviously know that they are wrong. Or else they'd never advocate a reduction.

Its pandering for votes, plain and simple.

[thecavemaster]

Everything in the world is not "it's either A or it's B." In fact, that's an actual logical fallacy (either/or fallacy). The local Planned Parenthood workers are NOT politically motivated and, therefore, the charge of "pandering" is ridiculous. Lots of times in life, we are left to choose something that is not optimal. For every horror story I've heard about the poor teen who has an abortion and later in life commits suicide, I've heard one about how a young girl who gets an abortion goes on to college and a successful career. Pandering... most people working day to day in the mean streets of this issue aren't dealing in debate or vote getting.

[ronald_reagan]

Everything in the world is not "it's either A or it's B." In fact, that's an actual logical fallacy (either/or fallacy). The local Planned Parenthood workers are NOT politically motivated and, therefore, the charge of "pandering" is ridiculous. Lots of times in life, we are left to choose something that is not optimal. For every horror story I've heard about the poor teen who has an abortion and later in life commits suicide, I've heard one about how a young girl who gets an abortion goes on to college and a successful career. Pandering... most people working day to day in the mean streets of this issue aren't dealing in debate or vote getting.

Yes it is. There's only right and wrong. You can't be in between, and thats what POLITICIANS are doing.

I never said that planned parenthood panders for votes. Its obvious I was talking about pols.

Planned parenthood can't run for election, thus couldn't pander for votes.

And if you think that doing something wrong, then leading a successful life is any defense then you're a sad case. And I never mentioned a girl committing suicide, although it happens. Its just not a good arguement, so I don't use it. Although, the very woman who fought for Roe v. Wade... is NOW the leading proponent of having the decision reversed, as she's realized the error of her ways.

O.J. Simpson could lead a 'better life' now.. would that be acceptable? Either way, he's still a murderer.

[Codeman]

Abortion is murder!!!!!!!i think it is wrong...if she can lay down and do it she should have the baby at least give it up for adoption...thats why my dad divorced his first wife she had an abortion behind his back.

[ronald_reagan]

Abortion is murder!!!!!!!i think it is wrong...if she can lay down and do it she should have the baby at least give it up for adoption...thats why my dad divorced his first wife she had an abortion behind his back.

Thats amazing.

Sometimes I wonder, what if Mary would have aborted Jesus. Or MLK would have been a victim?

Its just mind blowing how uneducated some are, or at least choose to act.

[Watchful Eye]

Here's you a great question? At 27 weeks of her pregnancy my wife developed serious problems. She was actually on deaths door. They removed our daughter early and luckily saved both. She weighed 1lb 13ounces. We had previously had two failed pregnancies.
If a physician had come to me and told me that my wife would die without termination of the fetus. There would be no, absolutely no second guessing what I would do.
There are people in the United States of America in the year of our lord, 2007. That would allow their family memberto dye instead of receiving a blood transfusion due to their religious beliefs. Stand there and watch as a loved one die because they have been appointed executor over that family member's medical condition due to their particular beliefs. What is any different in choosing to kill a human being that way and walking into an abortion clinic?

[thecavemaster]

Here's you a great question? At 27 weeks of her pregnancy my wife developed serious problems. She was actually on deaths door. They removed our daughter early and luckily saved both. She weighed 1lb 13ounces. We had previously had two failed pregnancies.
If a physician had come to me and told me that my wife would die without termination of the fetus. There would be no, absolutely no second guessing what I would do.
There are people in the United States of America in the year of our lord, 2007. That would allow their family memberto dye instead of receiving a blood transfusion due to their religious beliefs. Stand there and watch as a loved one die because they have been appointed executor over that family member's medical condition due to their particular beliefs. What is any different in choosing to kill a human being that way and walking into an abortion clinic?

It is good that your baby lived...and that your wife lived. Is it murder to drop bombs knowing that civilians will die? It appears to me that several of you folks use Jesus to "settle" disputes when it suits you, then abandon Jesus when it comes to your views on lots of other subjects. Good grief...religion poisons everthing.

[thecavemaster]

I am saying that the decision to carry a pregnancy beyond the first trimester, with limits into the second and third, is the law of the land. I am saying that for lots of people the abortion debate is not a matter of political discourse. I am saying that if men got pregnant abortion would be viewed as a rite of passage. I am saying that religious folks often spout on and on about certain issues, while totally abandoning anything their Founder taught and lived about other subjects. I am saying that the inability to acknowlege and deal with ambiguity in certain moral dilemmas is the province of a narrow mind, a hard heart, and an unkind spirit.

[phs1986]

I have my own opinions on abortion that I won't mention on here as I prefer to keep them to myself but..... I wanted to educate you all just a tidbit....

*SOME facilities do abortions "legally" until the 5th month.
*You do have a "choice" (for a lack of a better word) of HOW the abortion is preformed.
**They inject the womb with saline and the fetus burns and you go into labor and abort
**They induce your labor and you actually have the "fetus".

I do personally know a lady that was pregnant but the child had passed while she was carrying. She REFUSED to let them abort the baby for fear that they were wrong!! Needless to say, at 8 months she went into labor on her own and proceeded to have a child that was born dead. What if she had been correct?? What if the baby wasn't deceased?

Just thought I would add this info so that you all can debate this topic some more....

[Beef]

Here's you a great question? At 27 weeks of her pregnancy my wife developed serious problems. She was actually on deaths door. They removed our daughter early and luckily saved both. She weighed 1lb 13ounces. We had previously had two failed pregnancies.
If a physician had come to me and told me that my wife would die without termination of the fetus. There would be no, absolutely no second guessing what I would do.
There are people in the United States of America in the year of our lord, 2007. That would allow their family memberto dye instead of receiving a blood transfusion due to their religious beliefs. Stand there and watch as a loved one die because they have been appointed executor over that family member's medical condition due to their particular beliefs. What is any different in choosing to kill a human being that way and walking into an abortion clinic?

Personally, I don't think there really is a difference. I believe that with today's advancements in medicine, everything should be done in order to save a person's life. :Thumbs:

[ComfortEagle]

Lets all just be realistic for one monent. Though I dont have the numbers in front of me. Id be willin to bet the farm that the vast majority of abortions are simply for birth control reasons. A woman has a wild weekend and then wakes up pregnant. What kills me is that politicians on both sides of the argument talk about the "one in a million" scenarios (Rape,Incest, the mothers or childs health at stake). All abortion is for the overwhelming majority of women who get it done is a way cover up a "mistake" they made while executing poor judgement and a poor innocent child who never hurt anybody is the one who pays the price for their foolish and irresponsible behavior. With all the families who cant have children int this country who cant adopt because the adoption system in this country is a JOKE. Youd think that if these women were true mothers and cared about ANYONE other than themselves theyd have the baby and put up for adoption so that child could have a chance at a good life. But they dont want to go 9 months without "man hoping". So they just kill this little child and then go about their day. A society is only as protected as its weakest members.

Before I can begin to take you serious, are you a woman? Can you even begin to tell me what it feels like to be pregnant in high school? To have to walk down the halls or sit in a desk with a protruding belly, taking in all the stares?

Can you tell me what it's like to be decent student in college, have one bad night, and that ruin the rest of your life? I don't think so, so your opinion is blind to me. You are just giving the opinion from a man's point of view, which is that pregnancy is nothing and it does nothing to people's lives and that women who don't want to be pregnant are just weak or irresponsible. Which is not the case.

I agree that there are better ways of birth control, but do you not realize what would happen if we changed the law on abortion? We would have desperate women, young and maybe some old, that are risking their lives and/or dying from botched illegal abortions.

[ronald_reagan]

Good grief...religion poisons everthing.

[sherman14]

I am for the woman having the choice...but also STRICT regulations on that choice.

Well then your saying that scott peterson had the right to kill stacy. In my opinion it's the same thing.

[phs1986]

Well then your saying that scott peterson had the right to kill stacy. In my opinion it's the same thing.

Her name was Lacy....

[ronald_reagan]

Her name was Lacy....

Stacy Peterson is the woman that is missing that scumbag cop Drew Peterson probably killed. :mad:

[Midee1]

Stacy Peterson is the woman that is missing that scumbag cop Drew Peterson probably killed. :mad:

Yes but Lacy was the name of the lady that Scott killed.

[ronald_reagan]

Yes but Lacy was the name of the lady that Scott killed.

and your point? :confused:

Everyone knows who lacy is.

Stacy is not as well known, just shedding some light on why sherman14 may have been mistaken.

Now, anything else?

[Midee1]

and your point? :confused:

Everyone knows who lacy is.

Stacy is not as well known, just shedding some light on why sherman14 may have been mistaken.

Now, anything else?

Yes there is something else.

I was just shedding some light on the fact that you may be wrong as well. He may may have been talking about Lacy and made a mistake.

Thanks for correcting me since I have no idea what I am talking about.

[ronald_reagan]

Yes there is something else.

I was just shedding some light on the fact that you may be wrong as well. He may may have been talking about Lacy and made a mistake.

Thanks for correcting me since I have no idea what I am talking about.

What are you talking about?

He was talking about Lacy. I was pointing out who STACY was though. Its Stacy's name thats all over TV right now, and its very easy to say Stacy instead of Lacy. I just didn't want sherman14 to feel like he was completely offbase, because he wasn't. As you were.

But you're welcome. i'll be correcting you in the future, just so you know.

[Midee1]

What are you talking about?

He was talking about Lacy. I was pointing out who STACY was though. Its Stacy's name thats all over TV right now, and its very easy to say Stacy instead of Lacy. I just didn't want sherman14 to feel like he was completely offbase, because he wasn't. As you were.

But you're welcome. i'll be correcting you in the future, just so you know.

I am sorry but you were off base with the sarcastic "anything else " comment.

I think that sherman14 does not need you to correct nor babysit him the same as I do not.

Who said anything about sherman14 being off base? I would appreciate if you didn't try to take everything into your own hands.

You quoted PHS1986 and basically corrected her and she was absolutely right in what she said. Read the discussion.


As for correcting me you may want to have your ducks in a row. I don't mind be corrected if I am wrong but there is no sense in trying to belittle people because you think you have a far superior intellect.

[ronald_reagan]

I am sorry but you were off base with the sarcastic "anything else " comment.

I think that sherman14 does not need you to correct nor babysit him the same as I do not.

Who said anything about sherman14 being off base? I would appreciate if you didn't try to take everything into your own hands.

You quoted PHS1986 and basically corrected her and she was absolutely right in what she said. Read the discussion.


As for correcting me you may want to have your ducks in a row. I don't mind be corrected if I am wrong but there is no sense in trying to belittle people because you think you have a far superior intellect.

I did absolutely no such thing. PHS1986 made a valid and correct point. (who babysitted and corrected sherman14 AS WELL, with no comment from you?). PHS1986 was right to say, and do as she done.... I was adding TO her post...

Who am I trying to belittle by this?? I ADDED to a post, and helped out my buddy sherman. Whats your deal? Let it GO.

[Midee1]

This one is either going to get back on the topic of abortion or it will be closed.

[Shady Grady]

This is what I can't figure out. People want the "freedom of choice". But why is it that I don't have the choice to wear my seatbelt? If I get killed because I don't have on my seatbelt, it affects only me. If a woman has an abortion, it affects the baby. Also, on the subject of rape and incest, I believe that everything happens for a reason. Who are we to say who should live and who should die? If we take the stance that the product of rape or incest should be allowed to be aborted, what is the next step? Why don't we just get rid of all the old people wasting taxpayer dollars in nursing homes, get rid of all the people in mental institutions, wasting money? The bottom line is we the people don't have the right to play God to say who should live and who should die. And as for back alley abortions, people are going to do crazy things to their body no matter how much we try to prevent it. We don't have to make it convenient for them. I really believe that people who do harm to children and the elderly are going to be severly punished.

[ronald_reagan]

This is what I can't figure out. People want the "freedom of choice". But why is it that I don't have the choice to wear my seatbelt? If I get killed because I don't have on my seatbelt, it affects only me. If a woman has an abortion, it affects the baby. Also, on the subject of rape and incest, I believe that everything happens for a reason. Who are we to say who should live and who should die? If we take the stance that the product of rape or incest should be allowed to be aborted, what is the next step? Why don't we just get rid of all the old people wasting taxpayer dollars in nursing homes, get rid of all the people in mental institutions, wasting money? The bottom line is we the people don't have the right to play God to say who should live and who should die. And as for back alley abortions, people are going to do crazy things to their body no matter how much we try to prevent it. We don't have to make it convenient for them. I really believe that people who do harm to children and the elderly are going to be severly punished.

Thats a really good post. irateSho