[sherman14]

I do belive abortion is wrong and women don't have a choice. If women have a choice to KILL there children then any convicted murderer had the right to kill who ever they did. I have one question. Whats the difference in abortion killing a innocent human and shooting someone in the head?:confused:

[ronald_reagan]

I do belive abortion is wrong and women don't have a choice. If women have a choice to KILL there children then any convicted murderer had the right to kill who ever they did. I have one question. Whats the difference in abortion killing a innocent human and shooting someone in the head?:confused:

Absolutely nothing.

[ronald_reagan]

Even pro-abortionists know and believe its wrong, or else they'd never brag about 'reducing the number of abortions'. I mean, I've always wondered why Sen. Clinton or Rudy say things like, "During my 4 years as mayor/senator, I worked to reduce the number of abortions..." Why would they even care?? If you think its not murder, then why do you even freaking care how many are performed?? Its either good or bad? There's no inbetween on this issue.

In many states, a woman can be driving to an abortion clinic, get hit by a drunk driver and lose her baby... and the driver be charged with murder... YET, had he not hit her... she would have did the same thing just a few moments later in a doctors office.

Also, isn't it funny that its a bigger punishment to kill an endangered species, or pick an endangered flower in a state park (that you pay for by the way), than it is to MURDER an unborn child by sticking a pair of scissors in the base of its neck, snap its spinal cord, suck out its brains and then throw it in the garbage??

Unborn kids have property rights. I can will my estate to my unborn child and its recognized as a person in court...

This nation will recieve its punishments, over and over, if we don't stop the 1,000,000 plus per year that are murdered without ever getting the chance to enjoy love, family, ect...

Jeremiah (chapter 1:3) "Before I formed you in the womb... I knew you.."

And I believe strongly, as sure as Jesus is the Christ, that when the little child in Elizabeths stomach leapt when approaced by Mary and the son of God... it leapt full of life.

[ronald_reagan]

Also, I wrote a book in 1984 that highly recommend you read.

"Abortion and the Conscience of a Nation"

It helped me get re-elected. Although, running against Mondale, my running mate could have been a lawn chair, and I'd carried 49 states once again.

[Midee1]

This nation will recieve its punishments, over and over, if we don't stop the 1,000,000 plus per year that are murdered without ever getting the chance to enjoy love, family, ect...

Now let me preface this by saying that this has absolutely nothing to do with my beliefs but it is just a point of debate.

How would the 1 million plus abortions that are performed every year affect our population and ways of life?

Can you imagine introducing 1 million extra people into our society every year. There are people out there that cannot get jobs. How many more would be out of work, homeless and on the streets if those extra million were in society.

I honestly think that there should be a limiting factor on abortions. Medically necessary I can see but let's say that women are only allowed 1 non medically necessary abortion before have to have their tubes tied. Some women out there have multiple abortions and never think anything of it.

But of course I feel the same way about fathers that will not support their children but that is another topic all together.

[ronald_reagan]

How would the 1 million plus abortions that are performed every year affect our population and ways of life?

Can you imagine introducing 1 million extra people into our society every year. There are people out there that cannot get jobs. How many more would be out of work, homeless and on the streets if those extra million were in society.

On paper, what you are saying makes good sense. but it doesn't really work that way. The unconscience mind of the nation would limit population growth. And since you didn't get into the ethics of it, we'll talk only in the pretense that abortion is ok in both of our minds, for this point.

I think the last numbers I've saw, placing the number of abortions at 30,000,000 since 1973. Now, what woudl happen is, many of those moms would ended up having kids later in life. Especially those who did it the 70's and 80's. A very close family member of mine had an abortion in the early 70's in Ohio, today she has 1 kid, whom she had a few years later. She says that if she had had the first child, she wouldn't have had the second. So the rate of growth in population wouldn't change by an extra 30,000,000. There's also an arguement to be made that we'd have an extra 20-30 million on the tax rolls as well, thus helping the budget deficit, and ESPECIALLY the social security account (due to the low ratio of workers to retirees at this moment).

Another interesting fact, and this may be taken as racist, and regarded as highly controversial. Starting in the early 1990's, our nation saw a dramatic and sustained drop in crime that lasts even until today. One school of thought, of which I happen to agree with, is that the reason for this reduction is crime is that, abortions disproportionately affect minority populations. African American women are many times more likely to have one, and all stats show that crime is disproportionately apart of the minority population. In the early 1990's, these first victims of abortion would have been roughly 'crime committing age'. Thus, not in existance, couldn't commit the crime. Will this pattern continue? And is abortion worth it? I hope so, and I hope not.

[Beef]

Another interesting fact, and this may be taken as racist, and regarded as highly controversial. Starting in the early 1990's, our nation saw a dramatic and sustained drop in crime that lasts even until today. One school of thought, of which I happen to agree with, is that the reason for this reduction is crime is that, abortions disproportionately affect minority populations. African American women are many times more likely to have one, and all stats show that crime is disproportionately apart of the minority population. In the early 1990's, these first victims of abortion would have been roughly 'crime committing age'. Thus, not in existance, couldn't commit the crime. Will this pattern continue? And is abortion worth it? I hope so, and I hope not.

As sad as it is, this is a valid point. I will try to find the paper that I read on the topic.

As for abortion in general, I think it should only be allowed in certain situations such as the already mentioned health concern (for mother or child) and also in situations of rape. I think that if the option of not having an abortion then you would see more people on birth control and taking more precautions. Knowing that you have to face having a child would make people think twice IMO. Then again, people can just put them up for adoption quickly, and many of the people who choose this route would have probably used drugs during the pregnancy causing the child not to have a full life.

I am really torn on the issue but I know for 100% that if both the baby and mother can go through the whole process and be healthy then they should have to be born (again, minus females who are victims of rape)

Here's the Paper if anyone is interested: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?a..._id=174508

[ComfortEagle]

I'm not "pro"-abortion, I'm pro-choice. I don't agree with abortion, but if we stop providing safe facilities for women to use, we will go back to coat-hanger abortions and we will start to have more deadbeat dads and incompetent moms.

[ronald_reagan]

I'm not "pro"-abortion, I'm pro-choice. I don't agree with abortion, but if we stop providing safe facilities for women to use, we will go back to coat-hanger abortions and we will start to have more deadbeat dads and incompetent moms.

That was my question and I've never had it answered. Even in responses from intelligent congressmen and women. They say they don't agree with it, but do nothing to stop it. Why is that? If they don't agree with it, then they must believe that its wrong.:confused: And I'm not calling you out CE, and maybe you can help me understand it better.

[ComfortEagle]

That was my question and I've never had it answered. Even in responses from intelligent congressmen and women. They say they don't agree with it, but do nothing to stop it. Why is that? If they don't agree with it, then they must believe that its wrong.:confused: And I'm not calling you out CE, and maybe you can help me understand it better.

I have no control over it. I wasn't on the Supreme Court or even alive back then, but if we take away clean, safe places to get the abortions, then some will go back to the coat-hanger abortions, doing it in the back of an alley in some slum, whatever. That and I'm sure an abundance of babies dropped in dumpsters, etc.

Just because we take away the right to choose, does not mean that people will all of the sudden become responsible.

[ronald_reagan]

I have no control over it. I wasn't on the Supreme Court or even alive back then, but if we take away clean, safe places to get the abortions, then some will go back to the coat-hanger abortions, doing it in the back of an alley in some slum, whatever. That and I'm sure an abundance of babies dropped in dumpsters, etc.

Just because we take away the right to choose, does not mean that people will all of the sudden become responsible.

I guess I can see your point, and agree to disagree. But besides that, must studies show that its democrats that are aborting most often... meaning that they're aborting themselves out of existence. lol So sometimes I wonder why i'm fighting it so hard.

[Big Weasel]

Abortion is wrong.

[ronald_reagan]

Abortion is wrong.

Absolutely. And btw, welcome to the board!

[thecavemaster]

In the cases of rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother (none of which happens all that often), I believe the rights of the being out of the womb trump the rights of the one within the womb.

[ComfortEagle]

In the cases of rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother (none of which happens all that often), I believe the rights of the being out of the womb trump the rights of the one within the womb.

I agree, but how often does a woman get pregnant from rape?

Just wondering, because I don't know.

[ronald_reagan]

I agree, but how often does a woman get pregnant from rape?

Just wondering, because I don't know.

Well, lets say we don't know. Fair enough?

Lets say you agree with that, and you want it to be legal under those situations. I'd be willing at this point to make that compromise. But the problem is, you will see an unbelievably drastic rise in rape and 'medical emergencies'. How does a woman prove she is raped, not just wanting to abort her baby? All it takes for an arrest these days, is an introduction of sperm into her body and the womans word. This will lead to more unfounded and unfair charges and treatment for males, who are victims of deception so that women can 'legally' get abortions.

And doctors aren't honest..... this we know. They are controlled by other interests, and its not the patients best, I can assure. We have a doctor here, just arrested for billing medicare for precedures for pregnant women... which ended up being abortions. In California, I (as Reagan) signed into law a therapuetic abortion law. It would allow abortions in 'medical' situations. And suddenly, what never was... became widespread. So either this was an excuse for an abortion, or me signing the law made people sick.

We have a woman in Britian advocating abortion because of global warming, and she had one herself for that very reason. What is this world coming to?

[sherman14]

Yes there should be a limit of 0000000000000000.

[sherman14]

I believe that the person should have the same rights as I. Because they are a human being. They shouldn't be killed because they are defenseless an can't fight for themselves.
I am going into politics a hopefully become Govener and try to make abortion illegal in Kentucky.

[vundy33]

I am for the woman having the choice...but also STRICT regulations on that choice.

[ronald_reagan]

I believe that the person should have the same rights as I. Because they are a human being. They shouldn't be killed because they are defenseless an can't fight for themselves.
I am going into politics a hopefully become Govener and try to make abortion illegal in Kentucky.

Not to burst your bubble, and its a very noble effort.....

But you can't really 'outlaw' it until Roe v. Wade is overturned. Most court decisions say reasonable restrictions are acceptable, but when restrictions are placed... they're usually ruled unconstitutional. go figure :confused:

[thecavemaster]

Hard to be delicate here: in the case of the "fake a rape so as to secure an abortion"... rape, as a violent crime, most often leaves tissue damage that consensual sex does not. While it is, admittedly, a slippery slope, to fully equate the rights of the one in the womb to the one without is, it seems to me, a bit ethically simplistic.

[ronald_reagan]

Hard to be delicate here: in the case of the "fake a rape so as to secure an abortion"... rape, as a violent crime, most often leaves tissue damage that consensual sex does not. While it is, admittedly, a slippery slope, to fully equate the rights of the one in the womb to the one without is, it seems to me, a bit ethically simplistic.

Kobe Bryant is case in point. Its quite obvious he didn't rape her, and it was consensual. But medical findings produced tissue damage.

I am a very simplistic person and I find it hard to grasp the idea of giving more rights to flowers in national parks, than unborn children. The government gives these unborn children protection whenever the mom wants them protected, (murder by another), and the government gives them property rights... but doesn't give them absolute right to life itself. I just think that its hypocritical, the way the government and some people look at things.

But I can completely agree with you, that its a slippery slope, and this is a very tough issue.... One that obviously bothers us both.

It sucks.. we're agreeing. jp

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

I am for the woman having the choice...but also STRICT regulations on that choice.

Murder isnt a choice and this form of murder should be against the law like all other forms of it.

[thecavemaster]

"Murder" requires two things: actus reus (the act itself) andmens rea (the corresponding mental state). From the perspective of criminal justice, abortion is not murder. The young girl who ends her pregnancy medically is exercising her right under Roe V. Wade, which means the abortion actually lacks either of the two requirements.

[ronald_reagan]

Murder isnt a choice and this form of murder should be against the law like all other forms of it.

I agree with you on this.

I've asked the question several times now, and I've not got a good answer on it.. even senator clinton sent me a 'form letter' that didn't come close to answering it.

If there's nothing wrong with a woman doing it, why do you want to limit the number of them? And why do people in position who are pro-abortion, make such a big deal of lowering the number of them?

[thecavemaster]

Why do people who are against criminalizing tobacco work to try and lower the number of people who choose to smoke? Smoking, while not an optimal choice, is still a choice.

[vundy33]

Murder isnt a choice and this form of murder should be against the law like all other forms of it.

We disagree...It's a touchy subject that I usually don't like talking about.

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

Lets all just be realistic for one monent. Though I dont have the numbers in front of me. Id be willin to bet the farm that the vast majority of abortions are simply for birth control reasons. A woman has a wild weekend and then wakes up pregnant. What kills me is that politicians on both sides of the argument talk about the "one in a million" scenarios (Rape,Incest, the mothers or childs health at stake). All abortion is for the overwhelming majority of women who get it done is a way cover up a "mistake" they made while executing poor judgement and a poor innocent child who never hurt anybody is the one who pays the price for their foolish and irresponsible behavior. With all the families who cant have children int this country who cant adopt because the adoption system in this country is a JOKE. Youd think that if these women were true mothers and cared about ANYONE other than themselves theyd have the baby and put up for adoption so that child could have a chance at a good life. But they dont want to go 9 months without "man hoping". So they just kill this little child and then go about their day. A society is only as protected as its weakest members.

[thecavemaster]

A man and a woman wake up pregnant. If men carried the fetus, abortion would be a sacred right of passage.

[vundy33]

Well, Hail Pikeville, I never thought of a baby that was just a "mistake". I guess a girl with a little bit of money can get rid of that mistake. You've changed my view...

When I look at it like you do, I think it should be outlawed. One catch though, If the mother's health is at risk. I think there should be some tight guidelines around that issue. Like if the fetus is under 1 month. After one month, I think abortion shouldn't be aloud at all.