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03-20-2018, 09:48 PM
Any thoughts?
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03-20-2018, 09:58 PM
Chances are that they will not. Basketball should be classed at least like track in 3 classes.
With the all A and the new 2a tournament its only a matter of time.
With the all A and the new 2a tournament its only a matter of time.
03-20-2018, 10:42 PM
I was the conductor for the Classification train to hit the KHSAA wide open.
As most members know, I have done extensive research on why the KHSAA needs Classification. I won't go in to the minutia on here, but (after much consideration from my previous posts) the Sweet Sixteen needs to left alone. The Sweet Sixteen is the flagship high school event in Kentucky. Will a school like Phelps or Fulton City ever cut the nets at Rupp... probably not. Will we see a Class A or AA school win like the '96 Paintsville or '10 Shelby Valley team... probably.
The All "A" Classic and the soon to be All "AA" Classic should be enough to suffice. The majority of A & AA schools have conceded the notion of winning the Sweet Sixteen. Making to the Sweet Sixteen though is a different situation. Take for example a school like Buckhorn. Buckhorn beat in-county rival Perry County Central in the 14th region finals in 2016. The purple & black invaded Rupp Arena and to their school and their community, just going to the big dance (probably) means more to them than when a team like Scott County or Cov. Cath. wins the state championship.
As most members know, I have done extensive research on why the KHSAA needs Classification. I won't go in to the minutia on here, but (after much consideration from my previous posts) the Sweet Sixteen needs to left alone. The Sweet Sixteen is the flagship high school event in Kentucky. Will a school like Phelps or Fulton City ever cut the nets at Rupp... probably not. Will we see a Class A or AA school win like the '96 Paintsville or '10 Shelby Valley team... probably.
The All "A" Classic and the soon to be All "AA" Classic should be enough to suffice. The majority of A & AA schools have conceded the notion of winning the Sweet Sixteen. Making to the Sweet Sixteen though is a different situation. Take for example a school like Buckhorn. Buckhorn beat in-county rival Perry County Central in the 14th region finals in 2016. The purple & black invaded Rupp Arena and to their school and their community, just going to the big dance (probably) means more to them than when a team like Scott County or Cov. Cath. wins the state championship.
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03-20-2018, 10:54 PM
Iam4thecats Wrote:Chances are that they will not. Basketball should be classed at least like track in 3 classes.
With the all A and the new 2a tournament its only a matter of time.
I disagree. With an All A and 2A now KHSAA can easily say you've got yours we'll keep ours. Thing that I really like about sweet 16 is over last 100 years 2 teams have 6 championships. Only 9 schools have over 2 championships. Over last 19 years there has been 18 different winners.
03-20-2018, 11:30 PM
The day the KHSAA classes is the day you kill one of the best things this state has ever produced.
03-21-2018, 12:16 AM
Yes a small school will win it again. A Paintsville, U. Heights, Shelby Valley etc pops up approx 1x every 10 yrs on average
03-21-2018, 12:40 AM
The âSweet Sixteenâ is the best high school tournament in the nation. Will a A or AA school ever win it again, of course they will. IMO... itâs hard enough for small schools to compete against larger classification schools, but especially if schools like Cov Cath are allowed to keep recruiting like they are currently doing. At some point the KHSSA is going to have to get control of all this recruiting. Northern Ky. Is a haven for this and it continues to go on without any kind of repercussions from KHSSA.
03-21-2018, 02:02 AM
Yes. A small school will win it again.
If the KHSAA ever goes to classes, that will be a terrible ending for the best state tournament in the country.
If the KHSAA ever goes to classes, that will be a terrible ending for the best state tournament in the country.
03-21-2018, 02:36 AM
4everUK Wrote:The âSweet Sixteenâ is the best high school tournament in the nation. Will a A or AA school ever win it again, of course they will. IMO... itâs hard enough for small schools to compete against larger classification schools, but especially if schools like Cov Cath are allowed to keep recruiting like they are currently doing. At some point the KHSSA is going to have to get control of all this recruiting. Northern Ky. Is a haven for this and it continues to go on without any kind of repercussions from KHSSA.
isn't cov cath a private school. if they are, they can recruiting any player they want. but for teams like Perry Co Central and Knott Co Central. they can't recruiting.
you are saying all this stuff about Cov Cath. but you didn't said one thing about KCC or PCC. just remember private school can recruit and public schools can't. because public school get so much money from each kid in the school per day, private school the kids mom's and dad's pay.
03-21-2018, 05:36 AM
Not a public small school. Maybe an LCA or CAL but not public. A small public can win a region now and then and maybe a game in the Sweet 16 but that will unfortunately be it. Times have changed with the population. The golden triangle is only going to get bigger.
03-21-2018, 07:06 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-21-2018, 07:09 PM by jamesdeane.)
Agree with Wildcat Nation. I just don't see a small PUBLIC school winning the sweet 16.
03-21-2018, 07:14 PM
I know you guys don't care so i'm not going to argue after this post but private schools in Kentucky play by the same rules as everyone else. Recruiting is illegal. If you have proof report it to the KHSAA. Otherwise you are making excuses and cutting yourself off at the knees. Perry Central and Knott county Central can enroll a student from wherever they so choose, just like every other school in Kentucky. The KHSAA rules are for everyone. If you think a private school is doing something that helps them win you need to copy it not whine about it. Public schools have the advantage over privates with free tuition.
03-21-2018, 07:16 PM
There are some factual advantages that most private schools enjoy but they have nothing to do with the rules. I'll give a big pat on the back to anyone who can name a few.
03-21-2018, 07:37 PM
Yes. And within the next 15 to 20 years. Who that will end up being and when it ends up happening is anyone's guess, but yes, I think so (and in 25 years tops).
Awhile back, I'd posted how most State winners had great programs, not just good talent, as it seems that anyone who has won State over the past 20 years (save Dunbar and Jeffersontown, both schools in more metro areas and loaded regions) have made at least a couple other trips to Rupp during that same class' window, and have won a game or two in those trips as well. That was even more true for mountain teams who'd had success-- those teams seemed to have decade-long spans where they'd dominated regional play.
If I had to pick the next "small" or "Mountain" program primed to dominate regional play for awhile and potentially be competitive enough to contend for State, I'd think that Pikeville would be as good of a pick as you could make. Justice is a young coach and has taken them two years in a row, and this year, was able to win a game against a heavily favored John Hardin team. I'd imagine that, with Paintsville's dynasty seemingly over and Shelby Valley's program's best days likely in the rear-view, Pikeville has the kind of sustainability (i.e., attractive school, boosters, community support) to take over the throne (if they haven't already). Once that happens, the question then becomes, does a once in a generation player (i.e., Division One talent) come along in a year when you have enough talent around them and the cards fall right in terms of draw, other teams that are "up", etc. Obviously, there are lots of variables, but I don't think it's asinine to think that, under the current format, everything falls into place once every twenty or so years.
Past Pikeville, I don't know if you'd consider South Laurel to fit the criteria of a 'small' or 'Mountain' school, but I think that Davis has shown that he can take them and compete on a State-wide level (i.e., made it to the Final Four a few years ago and beat Covington Catholic in regular season play this year). South Laurel has a lot coming back next season and might be getting even better.
Momentum and having the crowd on your side is huge once you get to Rupp, and people love seeing a small, rural school do well.
Over the past 26 years, you've had Paintsville ('96), Shelby Valley ('10), or even a Breckenridge County ('93... currently 4A), Marion County ('95... currently 4A), or South Laurel ('05... then a 4A and now a 5A) win it all. I would imagine that, in those years, the majority of the people who purchased tickets to the whole event were happy with that outcome.
Stretch that span to 35 or 40 years and you get Clay County ('87), Pulaski County ('86), Logan County ('84... currently a 4A). This isn't counting someone like a Hopkinsville ('85) or Elizabethtown ('00) that has a small enrollment but is in a more populous area of the State and (ahem...) might not be looked at by all as 'rural' in terms of demographics.
In short, there have only been 8 champions crowned since 2010 when Shelby Valley, who I don't think anyone would argue isn't cut from the the small, rural, "Hoosier" stereotype, won it all. If it's 2030 or 2035 (another twelve or seventeen years) and we haven't seen another champion from a similar mold, then it might be time to worry, however, historically, I think it would be hard to find a time that such has happened. Is it getting harder for smaller schools to win? Yes. I do think so, and because of lots of complicated and correlated factors coming into play (with mobility being among the most prominent). With that said, it's not impossible, and I think that it is unlikely to be statically significant enough to alter the format of the tournament anytime soon.
Awhile back, I'd posted how most State winners had great programs, not just good talent, as it seems that anyone who has won State over the past 20 years (save Dunbar and Jeffersontown, both schools in more metro areas and loaded regions) have made at least a couple other trips to Rupp during that same class' window, and have won a game or two in those trips as well. That was even more true for mountain teams who'd had success-- those teams seemed to have decade-long spans where they'd dominated regional play.
If I had to pick the next "small" or "Mountain" program primed to dominate regional play for awhile and potentially be competitive enough to contend for State, I'd think that Pikeville would be as good of a pick as you could make. Justice is a young coach and has taken them two years in a row, and this year, was able to win a game against a heavily favored John Hardin team. I'd imagine that, with Paintsville's dynasty seemingly over and Shelby Valley's program's best days likely in the rear-view, Pikeville has the kind of sustainability (i.e., attractive school, boosters, community support) to take over the throne (if they haven't already). Once that happens, the question then becomes, does a once in a generation player (i.e., Division One talent) come along in a year when you have enough talent around them and the cards fall right in terms of draw, other teams that are "up", etc. Obviously, there are lots of variables, but I don't think it's asinine to think that, under the current format, everything falls into place once every twenty or so years.
Past Pikeville, I don't know if you'd consider South Laurel to fit the criteria of a 'small' or 'Mountain' school, but I think that Davis has shown that he can take them and compete on a State-wide level (i.e., made it to the Final Four a few years ago and beat Covington Catholic in regular season play this year). South Laurel has a lot coming back next season and might be getting even better.
Momentum and having the crowd on your side is huge once you get to Rupp, and people love seeing a small, rural school do well.
Over the past 26 years, you've had Paintsville ('96), Shelby Valley ('10), or even a Breckenridge County ('93... currently 4A), Marion County ('95... currently 4A), or South Laurel ('05... then a 4A and now a 5A) win it all. I would imagine that, in those years, the majority of the people who purchased tickets to the whole event were happy with that outcome.
Stretch that span to 35 or 40 years and you get Clay County ('87), Pulaski County ('86), Logan County ('84... currently a 4A). This isn't counting someone like a Hopkinsville ('85) or Elizabethtown ('00) that has a small enrollment but is in a more populous area of the State and (ahem...) might not be looked at by all as 'rural' in terms of demographics.
In short, there have only been 8 champions crowned since 2010 when Shelby Valley, who I don't think anyone would argue isn't cut from the the small, rural, "Hoosier" stereotype, won it all. If it's 2030 or 2035 (another twelve or seventeen years) and we haven't seen another champion from a similar mold, then it might be time to worry, however, historically, I think it would be hard to find a time that such has happened. Is it getting harder for smaller schools to win? Yes. I do think so, and because of lots of complicated and correlated factors coming into play (with mobility being among the most prominent). With that said, it's not impossible, and I think that it is unlikely to be statically significant enough to alter the format of the tournament anytime soon.
03-21-2018, 08:05 PM
cj2561 Wrote:isn't cov cath a private school. if they are, they can recruiting any player they want. but for teams like Perry Co Central and Knott Co Central. they can't recruiting.Cov Cath gets their best players from Ohio (Cincy area)
you are saying all this stuff about Cov Cath. but you didn't said one thing about KCC or PCC. just remember private school can recruit and public schools can't. because public school get so much money from each kid in the school per day, private school the kids mom's and dad's pay.
03-21-2018, 08:13 PM
4everUK Wrote:Cov Cath gets their best players from Ohio (Cincy area)1. If you look at a map you will see that Covington is cicncy area
2. No they don't
03-21-2018, 08:42 PM
Also wanted to add- it's not as if the schools that have won it have been the only small and/or Mountain school's shots.
Hope I'm not leaving anyone out, but there were some really good teams that might fit the criteria but didn't win it, many due to tough first round draws:
Contenders:
Paintsville ('98) -
Runner-up to Scott County.
Wayne County ('04) -
Lost to eventual runner-up Mason County
South Laurel ('06) -
A favorite going in, lost in OT to Graves County in the quarterfinals
Elliott County ('08) -
Lost to eventual champion Mason County by 4 in the first round.
Elliott County ('09) -
Lost to eventual champion Holmes in the semis.
South Laurel ('16) -
Lost to eventual runner-up Doss by 7 in semis.
Puncher's Chance:
Corbin ('00) -
May be a stretch, but a wide open tournament where they lost in the first round to Tony Key and Russellville by 6 or so. Very underrated team.
South Laurel ('01) -
Lost to eventual runner-up (and probably the best team in the field) Male by 10 in the quarterfinals. Very wide open field past Male.
Ashland Blazer ('01) -
Lost to North Hardin by 6 in the quarters. Very wide open field that year (as mentioned above).
Ashland Blazer ('02) -
Lost to eventual champion Lexington Catholic by 14 in opener. Best player, Mark Surgalski, was playing with a broken hand. Team also had Arliss Beach.
Shelby Valley ('03) -
Lost to a very good Ballard team in the opener. Game was closer than the final score indicated. Would have another solid team that drew Henry Clay in the opener the next season.
Clay County ('14) -
Lost to eventual champion Covington Catholic by 2 in first round.
Knott County Central ('14) -
Upset by Bowling Green in first round. Led by Mr. Basketball, Cameron Justice.
Perry County Central ('17) -
Intriguing team that had some talent. Lost in quarters to Scott.
Seems like there was a good Perry County Central team in there during the late, late 90's with Ben Bowling, but they kept drawing the 6th Region.
Also saw a good Hazard team was eliminated during district play in 2004 (blind draw with the region's #2 team, Perry County Central), but had won the All A State title that year and had the kind of team that would have been dangerous in Rupp (good size with Sizemore and also athleticism with Olinger... fairly deep team too).
Very good Breathitt County team was completely screwed in 2003 as well. While I don't think that they would have won State or anything like that, I do think that they would have been capable of winning the opener as well as able to hang with anyone if they were at the very top of their game (team had Haddix, Sperry, and some bulk inside).
Hope I'm not leaving anyone out, but there were some really good teams that might fit the criteria but didn't win it, many due to tough first round draws:
Contenders:
Paintsville ('98) -
Runner-up to Scott County.
Wayne County ('04) -
Lost to eventual runner-up Mason County
South Laurel ('06) -
A favorite going in, lost in OT to Graves County in the quarterfinals
Elliott County ('08) -
Lost to eventual champion Mason County by 4 in the first round.
Elliott County ('09) -
Lost to eventual champion Holmes in the semis.
South Laurel ('16) -
Lost to eventual runner-up Doss by 7 in semis.
Puncher's Chance:
Corbin ('00) -
May be a stretch, but a wide open tournament where they lost in the first round to Tony Key and Russellville by 6 or so. Very underrated team.
South Laurel ('01) -
Lost to eventual runner-up (and probably the best team in the field) Male by 10 in the quarterfinals. Very wide open field past Male.
Ashland Blazer ('01) -
Lost to North Hardin by 6 in the quarters. Very wide open field that year (as mentioned above).
Ashland Blazer ('02) -
Lost to eventual champion Lexington Catholic by 14 in opener. Best player, Mark Surgalski, was playing with a broken hand. Team also had Arliss Beach.
Shelby Valley ('03) -
Lost to a very good Ballard team in the opener. Game was closer than the final score indicated. Would have another solid team that drew Henry Clay in the opener the next season.
Clay County ('14) -
Lost to eventual champion Covington Catholic by 2 in first round.
Knott County Central ('14) -
Upset by Bowling Green in first round. Led by Mr. Basketball, Cameron Justice.
Perry County Central ('17) -
Intriguing team that had some talent. Lost in quarters to Scott.
Seems like there was a good Perry County Central team in there during the late, late 90's with Ben Bowling, but they kept drawing the 6th Region.
Also saw a good Hazard team was eliminated during district play in 2004 (blind draw with the region's #2 team, Perry County Central), but had won the All A State title that year and had the kind of team that would have been dangerous in Rupp (good size with Sizemore and also athleticism with Olinger... fairly deep team too).
Very good Breathitt County team was completely screwed in 2003 as well. While I don't think that they would have won State or anything like that, I do think that they would have been capable of winning the opener as well as able to hang with anyone if they were at the very top of their game (team had Haddix, Sperry, and some bulk inside).
03-21-2018, 08:54 PM
You consider 4 A schools small?
03-21-2018, 08:56 PM
Champions will continue to come from 4th 7th 9th or 11th regions
Let me know when that changes
All from the larger cities in KY
Let me know when that changes
All from the larger cities in KY
03-21-2018, 08:57 PM
A small Private School may, kind of doubt a small Public school will win it again though.
03-21-2018, 08:57 PM
I would just like to see the khsaa recognize the all a and aa classics as true state titles. I think that would make a ton of difference. I agree that the sweet 16 needs to be left alone. In the sports other than basketball I support classification.
03-21-2018, 09:00 PM
Fred Sanford Wrote:You consider 4 A schools small?
Small and/or mountain. "Rural" if you will.
03-21-2018, 10:55 PM
if the KHSAA is all about money. having 5 or 6 (just like football) state championship in basketball. they would make more money. if they break it up, they will. people like me that just want to watch some good basketball, will go to other championships also.
03-22-2018, 05:31 PM
Class it and everything else.
It's not equal for Elliot County to play Trinity or Pikeville to play Scott Co. etc. etc. etc.
It will be classed and likely soon. Look at attendance for the football title games. Now take that and think about what basketball would bring. Thats $$$$ and $$$ talks.
It's not equal for Elliot County to play Trinity or Pikeville to play Scott Co. etc. etc. etc.
It will be classed and likely soon. Look at attendance for the football title games. Now take that and think about what basketball would bring. Thats $$$$ and $$$ talks.
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