[Blacksmith]

Hopefully someone with better comprehension of the rules can speak. The first question I would ask though would be, did they spend all four years at the same High School or did they transfer in?

If they transferred starting Grade 9, as far as I understand, they would only be ruled eligible immediately via a bonafide change of address. If they transferred without a change of address they would be eligible after sitting out one full year

If they provided their own transportation for all four years (not aided by a coach) then they would be eligible despite living in another District.

BTW, here are some KHSAA official bylaws if anyone is curious:
http://khsaa.org/handbook/bylaws/20152016/bylaw4.pdf (Eligibility)
http://khsaa.org/handbook/bylaws/20152016/bylaw6.pdf (Tranfers)
http://khsaa.org/handbook/bylaws/20152016/bylaw16.pdf (Recruitment)

Thanks for the links..I can tell yo uthat they did NOT go there all four years, only about two, three for one of them and none sat out..They did furnish their own transportation..
Im not concerned with it at all of course, its long done and overwith but I was always curious about it. :Thumbs:

[Iam4thecats]

One possible solution to the problem is to do what the State of Georgia has done for High School Football.

If you all think transfers are a big deal in KY, it doesn't come close to what happens in Georgia!

Georgia has a rule in place that addresses the percentage of the school that is from Out of District and subsequently forces them to play up in class as a result.

If more than 3 percent of the student body reside outside the school's County of Origin or Attendance Zone you have to move up a class. I could see doing something similar except including it for Out of District students instead of just the County. This could forseeably bump several smaller private schools up an additional class, and also make public school with large numbers of kids from outside their District have to play up as well.

Here is an article about it... they call it the Buford rule because Buford High School is noted for their number of transfers and kids moving to Gwinnett County to try and attend. When I first moved to Georgia Buford was a 2A school and now I think they are like Class 5A
http://highschoolsports.blog.ajc.com/201...e-schools/

I like that Georgia plan a lot.

[Kingrebel]

Funny I always pegged you as the guy on here most likely to be "With her"

The Hillary types are the people who accuse schools of recruiting as their fallback and saying "It is not fair" because they feel everyone should get a trophy and never accept the fact that maybe if they put in the work to raise their program that they would be the school parents choose to move to.

When you get rural schools that put in the work like my rebels of Owen county it pays off we have been consistently getting better not to the point of a state title but we are building a Rep of having winning seasons it really helps get more kids into it that might not want to play.so I agree with you.

[pjdoug]

When you get rural schools that put in the work like my rebels of Owen county it pays off we have been consistently getting better not to the point of a state title but we are building a Rep of having winning seasons it really helps get more kids into it that might not want to play.so I agree with you.

every team in the state puts work in. some cheat and some dont.

[oldschool77]

EKU Alum. My point is almost exactly what you agree with. I have heard coaches and boosters actively recruit players, in person. There was no bonafide change of address. Also, my point was that other issues should be more important i.e. academics, other ancillary opportunities etc. Most players will not make a living playing sports and the preparation for their future should be the most important role of the school. Also, football at the high school level is about the relationships built during that time. If players move to the "it" school, much of that is lost. Teams become almost a group of "mercenaries" who have don't develop the "school or community pride" which is what I think makes the sport great. There is something to be said for talented players who refuse to leave the team they have played with for years. Sadly, they will most likely have less success on the field because some others and their parents are interested in showcasing themselves rather than maintaining a commitment to the program that helped improve that talent over the years. I am, by know means, a "everybody gets a trophy" guy. I do think the rules should be monitored and enforced though.

[Single Wing 77]

The "recruiting" excuse is just there because schools don't want to put the money and support into their program. They think that kids should be loyal to a school who doesn't put real support into them. If you want to stop kids from leaving your school then build your program. A great example is Knox Central. 10-12 years ago Knox Central was lucky to win two games a year. Most of their players either went to Bell County or Corbin. Not because they were recruited illegally but because they didn't want to go 2-8 and get embarrassed. Now it is very rare that a kid from barbourville leaves because they have built their program.

[The_Rock]

Couldn't said it any better Single Wing.

[LaFlamaBlanca]

Good programs don't need to "recruit". Their record and state championships organically attract talent.

[oldschool77]

The "recruiting" excuse is just there because schools don't want to put the money and support into their program. They think that kids should be loyal to a school who doesn't put real support into them. If you want to stop kids from leaving your school then build your program. A great example is Knox Central. 10-12 years ago Knox Central was lucky to win two games a year. Most of their players either went to Bell County or Corbin. Not because they were recruited illegally but because they didn't want to go 2-8 and get embarrassed. Now it is very rare that a kid from barbourville leaves because they have built their program.

You make assumptions that I am talking about an unsuccessful program, which I am not. Also, Knox Central's "success" has ended in the second round of the playoffs and Corbin is still "king of the hill" in that area. That will be evidenced tonight. Is Laurel County and Whitley County "talent flow" headed to Babourville? No, it still flows to Corbin. I do agree that the problem is largely with school administration and athletic directors. If they don't value the program it is hard to be successful. However, it's quite insane, that not only do you have to build a good Youth and Middle School program, but then also have to recruit your own kids to play for your program in high school. Especially, when the coach down the road is promising starting early at whatever position you want (which in the end doesn't actually occur but the move back is difficult). It is nearly impossible for parents to affect a change of administration, so I guess we should also just move our kids to whoever looks like they can get to Bowling Green next year. A lot of us UK fans get offended when the top players in our state don't want to stay here and play for their "home state" even though recruiting is allowed in college. Now, we are accepting of the same thing in high school even though recruiting is not allowed.

[mysonis55]

The great football player from Mayfield a few years ago, who shall remain nameless for this thread, was offered a scholarship to come to Trinity. The great player from Caldwell Co a few years ago, was offered a scholarship to go to Trinity. That should be cheating. Talented players 3 to 3.5 hours drive from Louisville offered a chance to go to school there free of charge to play for them.

[mysonis55]

In all EKU is correct though. Many parents choose to move their kids for success. Also many figures not really affiliated with the schools, just fans, do a little recruiting of their own with kids they know. That however is basically the same as the parents moving the kids, not illegal.

[EKUAlum05]

EKU Alum. My point is almost exactly what you agree with. I have heard coaches and boosters actively recruit players, in person. There was no bonafide change of address. Also, my point was that other issues should be more important i.e. academics, other ancillary opportunities etc. Most players will not make a living playing sports and the preparation for their future should be the most important role of the school. Also, football at the high school level is about the relationships built during that time. If players move to the "it" school, much of that is lost. Teams become almost a group of "mercenaries" who have don't develop the "school or community pride" which is what I think makes the sport great. There is something to be said for talented players who refuse to leave the team they have played with for years. Sadly, they will most likely have less success on the field because some others and their parents are interested in showcasing themselves rather than maintaining a commitment to the program that helped improve that talent over the years. I am, by know means, a "everybody gets a trophy" guy. I do think the rules should be monitored and enforced though.

We both 100% agree on the fact that the KHSAA needs to close loopholes and enforce policy better and I also will agree that there are bad apples out there who are taking advantage of these loopholes.

Where we differ though is perspective.

I don't ever recall, in over 25 years of following KY football, ever seeing one of these instances of " group of mercenaries" that you are eluding to, specifically one that lost that community or school pride.

There are teams like this out there, but they are not any in KY. IMG Academy is the first to come to mind out of Florida. Transfers, in the since of what a transfer actually is, actually are not as commonplace as people like to think.. especially at the High School level. Once again let's define a transfer as a kid who changes schools from Grades 9-12.

Look at your best programs in KY and I would say every single one of them have averaged less than a single transfer per year during their title teams. The teams that did have a transfer or even a couple also never lost that sense of community even when they were winning, in fact I would argue those teams probably had a much greater sense of community than the vast majority of rural county schools with exclusively home grown talent. Perfect example is Bowling Green has a LB'er this year who came from I believe Murfreesboro, TN and joined their roster after his family moved. Do you see people upset about him starting over kids who have grown up in the BG program?

Getting back to my theory of Talent Pool Flow. The vast majority of those parents are not relocating their kid in High School chasing a ring. They are relocating at a much earlier age, usually right when they start playing organized sports, because they are wanting them to grow up in that District and those feeder programs.

Belfry is the prime example here. Despite what some simpletons want to believe on here, most Belfry folks are candid that they have had their fair share of transplants over the year. Belfry has had very little transfers though at the HS Level. In fact, I know of two players who did transfer from Mingo Central in the past four years who immediately transferred back because they could not move up the depth chart. They then go back to Mingo Central and are star players. What happens at Belfry is families move to the Belfry District around the 5th or 6th Grade so their kids can become part of that community while also getting exceptional coaching. Similar situations happen at places like Corbin, Boyle County, Pikeville, Pulaski County, etc. every year. There is noone "recruiting" these parents and kids. These are parents making a conscious decision to having their kids go to stable programs, that best assure success, with great impartial coaching (this one is absolutely huge as "Daddy Ball" is the killer at many unsuccessful programs)


Once again... recruiting DOES NOT happen as much as people want to think. Parents choosing to relocate kids happens probably more than people think. Yet, recruiting does still exist and there are bad apples and when those bad apples appear the KHSAA does an awful job of enforcing the rules.

[EKUAlum05]

It is nearly impossible for parents to affect a change of administration, so I guess we should also just move our kids to whoever looks like they can get to Bowling Green next year. A lot of us UK fans get offended when the top players in our state don't want to stay here and play for their "home state" even though recruiting is allowed in college. Now, we are accepting of the same thing in high school even though recruiting is not allowed.

We have different perspectives here. Neither is right, neither is wrong, just personal perspectives.

Personally speaking, when I have a child who is of the right age to begin playing sports and when education starts really mattering, these are things that my wife and I are going to take into account and make a choice about where we choose to send them to school or live. Not when he or she is in 9th Grade... even before that. If I feel my child is going to be hindered by an administration that endorses "daddy ball" or the school is not going to properly prepare them for college academically, then I am going to find the best option and move so that my kid has the best chance at success in every endeavor.

That's my perspective, but I can totally respect the other side of the coin where someone has roots planted deeper than myself and have had them for generations and take a deeper sense of self from the town or county they grew up in. Some people dream of having their kids follow in their, or their grandparent's footsteps and I can totally respect that and think it is pretty awesome. Just not my personal preference though.

[oldschool77]

We both 100% agree on the fact that the KHSAA needs to close loopholes and enforce policy better and I also will agree that there are bad apples out there who are taking advantage of these loopholes.

Where we differ though is perspective.

I don't ever recall, in over 25 years of following KY football, ever seeing one of these instances of " group of mercenaries" that you are eluding to, specifically one that lost that community or school pride.

There are teams like this out there, but they are not any in KY. IMG Academy is the first to come to mind out of Florida. Transfers, in the since of what a transfer actually is, actually are not as commonplace as people like to think.. especially at the High School level. Once again let's define a transfer as a kid who changes schools from Grades 9-12.

Look at your best programs in KY and I would say every single one of them have averaged less than a single transfer per year during their title teams. The teams that did have a transfer or even a couple also never lost that sense of community even when they were winning, in fact I would argue those teams probably had a much greater sense of community than the vast majority of rural county schools with exclusively home grown talent. Perfect example is Bowling Green has a LB'er this year who came from I believe Murfreesboro, TN and joined their roster after his family moved. Do you see people upset about him starting over kids who have grown up in the BG program?

Getting back to my theory of Talent Pool Flow. The vast majority of those parents are not relocating their kid in High School chasing a ring. They are relocating at a much earlier age, usually right when they start playing organized sports, because they are wanting them to grow up in that District and those feeder programs.

Belfry is the prime example here. Despite what some simpletons want to believe on here, most Belfry folks are candid that they have had their fair share of transplants over the year. Belfry has had very little transfers though at the HS Level. In fact, I know of two players who did transfer from Mingo Central in the past four years who immediately transferred back because they could not move up the depth chart. They then go back to Mingo Central and are star players. What happens at Belfry is families move to the Belfry District around the 5th or 6th Grade so their kids can become part of that community while also getting exceptional coaching. Similar situations happen at places like Corbin, Boyle County, Pikeville, Pulaski County, etc. every year. There is noone "recruiting" these parents and kids. These are parents making a conscious decision to having their kids go to stable programs, that best assure success, with great impartial coaching (this one is absolutely huge as "Daddy Ball" is the killer at many unsuccessful programs)


Once again... recruiting DOES NOT happen as much as people want to think. Parents choosing to relocate kids happens probably more than people think. Yet, recruiting does still exist and there are bad apples and when those bad apples appear the KHSAA does an awful job of enforcing the rules.

We basically agree. I certainly agree with the "Daddy Ball" problem with many youth leagues. In order to be successful you must have " program-oriented" "big picture" coaches at the youth and middle school levels. However, I do know first hand of a program that has recruited and accepted transfer of multiple players. Coaches met with at least some of these players prior to transfer, according to the parents of players involved. If it occurs prior to 9th grade there is less scrutiny, I hear. Much like other aspects of middle school sports, I think KHSAA should monitor this. It seems like there should be a threshold number of transfers to a school that might trigger a closer look by the KHSAA. I realized this subject would generate some furor , based on which side of the talent flow people were on. I appreciate your comments. The decision a parent has is, do you leave all the other kids behind to move to greener pastures or stay and swim upstream against the "talent flow". Neither option is without regrets.

[EKUAlum05]

We basically agree. I certainly agree with the "Daddy Ball" problem with many youth leagues. In order to be successful you must have " program-oriented" "big picture" coaches at the youth and middle school levels. However, I do know first hand of a program that has recruited and accepted transfer of multiple players. Coaches met with at least some of these players prior to transfer, according to the parents of players involved. If it occurs prior to 9th grade there is less scrutiny, I hear. Much like other aspects of middle school sports, I think KHSAA should monitor this. It seems like there should be a threshold number of transfers to a school that might trigger a closer look by the KHSAA. I realized this subject would generate some furor , based on which side of the talent flow people were on. I appreciate your comments. The decision a parent has is, do you leave all the other kids behind to move to greener pastures or stay and swim upstream against the "talent flow". Neither option is without regrets.

I can dig every bit of this post!

Enjoyed the discussion.

[The_Rock]

The problem in the area where I am from are that the only people that are willing to coach here are THE DADDIES. They will not pay the coaches 6th grade and below where I am from and people that have played football that don't have kids will not volunteer to coach.

[EKUAlum05]

The problem in the area where I am from are that the only people that are willing to coach here are THE DADDIES. They will not pay the coaches 6th grade and below where I am from and people that have played football that don't have kids will not volunteer to coach.

Having a dad coach is fine... as long as it is not "Daddy Ball"

The biggest issue you will see is a Coach will want to move with his son along the ages, and gear his coaching to benefit his own agenda, rather than that of the entire program.

Your best programs typically have set pieces in place as the Head Coaches at the Youth Level and even have a specific Youth League director to oversee everything and make everything that occurs is to the benefit of the program.

Nothing effects numbers more, or drives people to leave more, than having a father follow his son as the Head Coach.

The direction to change this path begins with the Head Coach of the High School. He has to have oversight over his Youth League and make sure the proper people are running it and instilling the instruction he wants.

[The_Rock]

In my area, they will allow daddies to coach that have never played football. I would for sure rather sit up the bleachers and watch someone coach my kid that knew what they were doing. I wouldn't care if they ran the ball every single play as long as they were instilling proper blocking fundamentals and teaching kids assignments, techniques, responsibilities and other fundamentals. I want a coach that disciplines his players to. You cant even coach around here without having to look over your shoulder for having to discipline your assistant coaches kids. Your assistant looks at you like how dare you say something to Jr. when Jr is talking in the huddle or cutting up. I just don't feel like a person needs to be around if they don't discipline their players. Lack of practice, discipline, and not enough kids on a team fighting for PT is a problem here. PT was pretty much handed to them.

[EKUAlum05]

In my area, they will allow daddies to coach that have never played football. I would for sure rather sit up the bleachers and watch someone coach my kid that knew what they were doing. I wouldn't care if they ran the ball every single play as long as they were instilling proper blocking fundamentals and teaching kids assignments, techniques, responsibilities and other fundamentals. I want a coach that disciplines his players to. You cant even coach around here without having to look over your shoulder for having to discipline your assistant coaches kids. Your assistant looks at you like how dare you say something to Jr. when Jr is talking in the huddle or cutting up. I just don't feel like a person needs to be around if they don't discipline their players. Lack of practice, discipline, and not enough kids on a team fighting for PT is a problem here. PT was pretty much handed to them.

I would say this is a problem at far too many programs unfortunately.

There is no surprise that your top KY High School Public programs all have elite level Feeder Programs. These are also the programs who typically will then benefit from that Talent Flow because parents simply get tired of the uphill battle or the drama and decide to move to where they have their act together and they know their kid will get a fair shot if they can play.

You want to kill your program let Daddy Ball take over at the Feeder Level.

[oldschool77]

I understand "daddy ball" as EKU alum means. Some dads understand the big picture and try to work on fundamentals, coach each and every player, and instill discipline in all players. Discipline starts, first and foremost, with the coaches son. "Daddy Ball" coaches are mainly concerned with their son being featured, as QB or RB usually, no matter what's best for the program, and in fact, for his own son down the road. Unfortunately, in some smaller communities there is a lack of knowledgeable coaches and even fewer who can see the big picture. Bottom line is that football is the epitome of a team game. The greatest athlete will not be successful without other good players around at the high school level or higher. So they all have to be coached and placed in the best positions to be successful. As far as discipline and work ethic, I feel the coach's son should be the example. If a coach can't get effort and discipline from his own son, how can he expect it from anyone else's. That was my philosophy when coaching, and always will be.

[The_Rock]

Great post oldschool77

[EKUAlum05]

Very well said oldschool

I think back to when Brandon Smith played QB for Boyle County under Chuck Smith as the perfect example of what the way daddy ball should look like.

Brandon Smith was everything you wanted out of a HS Quarterback

The fact Chuck Smith pushed him like any other player is probably why he was so successful as a collegiate QB and now as a HC.

[Kingrebel]

every team in the state puts work in. some cheat and some dont.

Lol great point

[Blacksmith]

Ill add something from my exp with "Daddy ball"...I have no problems with a dad coaching and playing their kid. None what so ever..Last year my boy played on two daddy teams..One's kid was a great player giving 110% but the coach was awesome. He never once put his kid ahead of the others and he coached/taught ever kid like they were his own..He put winning second and teaching kids how to play first. Which lead to a lot of winning.
The other played good old fashioned "daddy ball"..Cared for nothing but winning. Younger more inexperienced kids got very little attention or actual coaching..Only the older players did..Twice as much easily which served only to hinder the other kids..
I see a lot of that these days and it sucks..Coaches being picked by the buddy system, along with starting players being chosen the same way..Its no wonder so many kids loose heart and the desire to play..

[RAMDAD50]

"Talent Flow"= politically correct =Lib....Come on EKU!!!

[EKUAlum05]

"Talent Flow"= politically correct =Lib....Come on EKU!!!

HAHA

It's not recruiting though or even technically transfers... there isn't a word to describe it... "Relocatingtransfersmovingdjustments" wouldn't work as a word

[Tica]

The most adept recruiters are so polished it is perceived as something else: parent job transfer, promotion, new assignment, new job, new sales territory, divorce, new home, etc.

[pjdoug]

The most adept recruiters are so polished it is perceived as something else: parent job transfer, promotion, new assignment, new job, new sales territory, divorce, new home, etc.

right. a good job and house for daddy :biggrin:

[pjdoug]

Good programs don't need to "recruit". Their record and state championships organically attract talent.

I don't guess state championships could have possibly came from recruiting to begin with ?:happytear:

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

Does illegal and immoral things happen in High School sports? Sure they do. Should they happen? No. Does the KHSAA act appropriately when said transgressions occur? Better ? is: When does the KHSAA ever act appropriately about anything? The problem is that the "Recruiting" accusations, more often than not, are just an excuse by folks who are either unwilling or unable to admit their respective schools inadequecies and address them. The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior but expecting different results....