[pjdoug]

They had left the Union before Ft Sumpter, a fort that the Union occupied that was no longer a part of the Union. No treason I can see from leaving the Union, that was a states right nor for attacking the fort to reclaim their territory after the Union refused to leave.

people should learn for themselves instead of believing everything they heard in 7th grade.

[LCHSbulldogsalum]

people should learn for themselves instead of believing everything they heard in 7th grade.

If the United States withdrew from the fort, then they would have just given legitimacy to the CSA, which was NOT going to happen since Lincoln and the United States did not recognize a state's right to "withdraw" from the Union. So, what was the Union supposed to do? Lincoln had three choices:

1. Withdraw troops (not happening)
2. Sent in military/navy and force the action (be the aggressor)
3. Ask the CSA to allow supplies to be brought in to Major Anderson (puts the ball in the CSA court)


He chose #3, and the CSA attacked leading to them being the aggressors, which was brilliant by Lincoln.


This is not something I learned in the "7th grade" bud. :dontthink I love history and continue to read and learn about it every year of my life.

But, that's neither here nor there now. It is what someone said earlier...HISTORY.

And my belief isn't that the flag is racist. I've said that many times. It's that the flag represents TRAITORS and should not be celebrated at all for that reason alone.

[MayfieldCardinal]

If the United States withdrew from the fort, then they would have just given legitimacy to the CSA, which was NOT going to happen since Lincoln and the United States did not recognize a state's right to "withdraw" from the Union. So, what was the Union supposed to do? Lincoln had three choices:

1. Withdraw troops (not happening)
2. Sent in military/navy and force the action (be the aggressor)
3. Ask the CSA to allow supplies to be brought in to Major Anderson (puts the ball in the CSA court)


He chose #3, and the CSA attacked leading to them being the aggressors, which was brilliant by Lincoln.


This is not something I learned in the "7th grade" bud. :dontthink I love history and continue to read and learn about it every year of my life.

But, that's neither here nor there now. It is what someone said earlier...HISTORY.

And my belief isn't that the flag is racist. I've said that many times. It's that the flag represents TRAITORS and should not be celebrated at all for that reason alone.

That was some peoples opinion but apparently that was not the opinion of the authorities in the South who did not believe they were committing treason. I, and I assume you, have read that a states right to leave the Union if they choose to do so was not made clear by our Founding Fathers. Some at the time of their won revolt and afterward felt states rights trump Federal rights and some felt feds first and states second. Anyway, enough debate on a issue that at the time was unclear. Since 1869 is has been clear. I have a strong Southern heritage and support leaving the flag but that said if it is that offensive to that many people then maybe it is time for it to be removed from federal and state government property like capitals. Of course once you do then the same politically correct factions will want to ban all sorts of memorials and on and on and on....the next thing you know it will be mascots. Maybe the banning of mascots is not such a bad thing. I don't like bulldogs after being bit by one as a kid. I need to start a petition to remove all bulldog mascots because I find them offense for what that one did to me. Yes that's different but that is where we are trending toward. In the future I guess we will see everyone get a trophy too

[pjdoug]

If the United States withdrew from the fort, then they would have just given legitimacy to the CSA, which was NOT going to happen since Lincoln and the United States did not recognize a state's right to "withdraw" from the Union. So, what was the Union supposed to do? Lincoln had three choices:

1. Withdraw troops (not happening)
2. Sent in military/navy and force the action (be the aggressor)
3. Ask the CSA to allow supplies to be brought in to Major Anderson (puts the ball in the CSA court)


He chose #3, and the CSA attacked leading to them being the aggressors, which was brilliant by Lincoln.


This is not something I learned in the "7th grade" bud. :dontthink I love history and continue to read and learn about it every year of my life.

But, that's neither here nor there now. It is what someone said earlier...HISTORY.

And my belief isn't that the flag is racist. I've said that many times. It's that the flag represents TRAITORS and should not be celebrated at all for that reason alone.

apparently you didn't learn in any grade. tell us all about how great 'honest" Abe really was.

[Demarcus ware]

If the United States withdrew from the fort, then they would have just given legitimacy to the CSA, which was NOT going to happen since Lincoln and the United States did not recognize a state's right to "withdraw" from the Union. So, what was the Union supposed to do? Lincoln had three choices:

1. Withdraw troops (not happening)
2. Sent in military/navy and force the action (be the aggressor)
3. Ask the CSA to allow supplies to be brought in to Major Anderson (puts the ball in the CSA court)


He chose #3, and the CSA attacked leading to them being the aggressors, which was brilliant by Lincoln.


This is not something I learned in the "7th grade" bud. :dontthink I love history and continue to read and learn about it every year of my life.

But, that's neither here nor there now. It is what someone said earlier...HISTORY.

And my belief isn't that the flag is racist. I've said that many times. It's that the flag represents TRAITORS and should not be celebrated at all for that reason alone.

Traitors? tare: :ChairHit:

[pjdoug]

Traitors? tare: :ChairHit:

traitors offend me by calling me traitor.

[Lilly]

Great football thread. Should take a general discussion forum.

[LCHSbulldogsalum]

apparently you didn't learn in any grade. tell us all about how great 'honest" Abe really was.

The "pride" and "heritage" that you all have for the traitors of the CSA is the same that I have for the UNITED STATES and the POTUS (Lincoln). And, FYI, Lincoln is not even one of my top presidents in history. I actually like Andrew Jackson as one of my best presidents....for his style and the fact that he stood up to your (the south) John C. Calhoun who was preaching "secession" during the 1828 and 1832 tariff debates and told Calhoun to go ahead, secede....and he'd lead the army himself in to South Carolina and the first person he would find would be Calhoun.....nicker: College professor told that story with exact quotes, making a much better story than what I gave...but you get the point. :Thumbs:


Now, there really is no end to this debate. Neither side will give in. I know I won't because I believe I'm right (that the CSA were traitors). I think the arguments about the flag being "racist" are mixed. I can see some of their points, but I still don't believe an object can "hate" (unless it's a Klan outfit; something like that). I just think it's tasteless and disrespectful towards the United States of America to have the flag waving on government grounds.


Anyways, debates are fun when they don't get personal. Sadly, some on here want to make childish remarks about someone's intelligent levels because they don't agree with that person....:eyeroll:

[pjdoug]

The "pride" and "heritage" that you all have for the traitors of the CSA is the same that I have for the UNITED STATES and the POTUS (Lincoln). And, FYI, Lincoln is not even one of my top presidents in history. I actually like Andrew Jackson as one of my best presidents....for his style and the fact that he stood up to your (the south) John C. Calhoun who was preaching "secession" during the 1828 and 1832 tariff debates and told Calhoun to go ahead, secede....and he'd lead the army himself in to South Carolina and the first person he would find would be Calhoun.....nicker: College professor told that story with exact quotes, making a much better story than what I gave...but you get the point. :Thumbs:


Now, there really is no end to this debate. Neither side will give in. I know I won't because I believe I'm right (that the CSA were traitors). I think the arguments about the flag being "racist" are mixed. I can see some of their points, but I still don't believe an object can "hate" (unless it's a Klan outfit; something like that). I just think it's tasteless and disrespectful towards the United States of America to have the flag waving on government grounds.


Anyways, debates are fun when they don't get personal. Sadly, some on here want to make childish remarks about someone's intelligent levels because they don't agree with that person....:eyeroll:

I think traitors with a communist attitude messing with the Confederate Battle Flag and vandalizing Confederate Soldier memorials is tasteless and disrespectful. debates always end in personal attack.because your teacher taught you a bunch of lies doesn't mean you are preaching the Gospel.

[MayfieldCardinal]

The "pride" and "heritage" that you all have for the traitors of the CSA is the same that I have for the UNITED STATES and the POTUS (Lincoln). And, FYI, Lincoln is not even one of my top presidents in history. .


Anyways, debates are fun when they don't get personal. Sadly, some on here want to make childish remarks about someone's intelligent levels because they don't agree with that person....:eyeroll:

Are you offended by our Founding Fathers or the Constitution they wrote? They were almost all slave owners and Traitors. Do you feel we should rename Washington DC> After all, it is named for a racist slave owner

[Demarcus ware]

Out of all those traitors, tell me again how many was tried for treason? Oh thats right, there wasnt any. I changed my sig just for this interesting thread nicker:

[pjdoug]

Out of all those traitors, tell me again how many was tried for treason? Oh thats right, there wasnt any. I changed my sig just for this interesting thread nicker:

I'm glad there are people left like Cooter that will fight them on the ice.

[LCHSbulldogsalum]

Are you offended by our Founding Fathers or the Constitution they wrote? They were almost all slave owners and Traitors. Do you feel we should rename Washington DC> After all, it is named for a racist slave owner

I'm going to try this again. I'm not out to remove the flag for RACIST reasons. I'm out to remove it for national pride reasons. It should not be celebrated, the actions of the confederates that is. That's what I'm saying.


As for the slave owners, go back and do some research. You'll find it amusing that your southern state governments were quick to make it difficult for anyone to simply "release" their slaves. Some states taxed the owner for each slave he would release. That's why slave owners, like Washington, allowed his slaves to sell products (usually agricultural products) on Sunday at the market and then allow them to buy their freedom, using that money to pay the penalty.

But, I guess my PROFESSORS didn't teach me anything either. :biglmao: That dang liberal education! Should have just taught me that South Carolina was right, that John C. Calhoun was our true American hero, and that life was better with slavery. :eyeroll: YeeHaw.

[pjdoug]

I'm going to try this again. I'm not out to remove the flag for RACIST reasons. I'm out to remove it for national pride reasons. It should not be celebrated, the actions of the confederates that is. That's what I'm saying.


As for the slave owners, go back and do some research. You'll find it amusing that your southern state governments were quick to make it difficult for anyone to simply "release" their slaves. Some states taxed the owner for each slave he would release. That's why slave owners, like Washington, allowed his slaves to sell products (usually agricultural products) on Sunday at the market and then allow them to buy their freedom, using that money to pay the penalty.

But, I guess my PROFESSORS didn't teach me anything either. :biglmao: That dang liberal education! Should have just taught me that South Carolina was right, that John C. Calhoun was our true American hero, and that life was better with slavery. :eyeroll: YeeHaw.

George Washington died years before Abraham Lincoln was a twinkle in his dad's eye or the Civil War. The war was mostly about the booming economy in the South. Lincoln was a white supremacist that liked to barter prostitutes.

[LCHSbulldogsalum]

George Washington died years before Abraham Lincoln was a twinkle in his dad's eye or the Civil War. The war was mostly about the booming economy in the South. Lincoln was a white supremacist that liked to barter prostitutes.

#1: That's a simple answer. What about the Mexican War? The new territory was going to be open to potential slave owners to expand westward. To simply say "booming economy"...haha....is that why the poverty level in the south was pretty bad? You realize that only 1-3% of the South were wealthy Planters? That the normal, hard-working, everyday farmers, weren't cashing in on this "booming economy"????

#2: You say this as if I am a Lincoln lover. Done told you, I'm not. My man put the south's man (Calhoun) in his place (Andrew Jackson). If the war was truly about the "booming economy", then why didn't it start in 1828? or 1832? It was no secret that the northern manufacturers were eager to push the south (and west for that matter) towards that direction...as it would have made the nation better and more competitive in a developing global economy.


And what I said about Washington and how states passed tax laws, that's true.....yet the southern states didn't want "Big Brother" to come in and pass laws that would hurt them.....(scratching my head)

But, again, I don't know any history.....:Thumbs:....

[Real Badman]

If the United States withdrew from the fort, then they would have just given legitimacy to the CSA, which was NOT going to happen since Lincoln and the United States did not recognize a state's right to "withdraw" from the Union. So, what was the Union supposed to do? Lincoln had three choices:

1. Withdraw troops (not happening)
2. Sent in military/navy and force the action (be the aggressor)
3. Ask the CSA to allow supplies to be brought in to Major Anderson (puts the ball in the CSA court)


He chose #3, and the CSA attacked leading to them being the aggressors, which was brilliant by Lincoln.


This is not something I learned in the "7th grade" bud. :dontthink I love history and continue to read and learn about it every year of my life.

But, that's neither here nor there now. It is what someone said earlier...HISTORY.

And my belief isn't that the flag is racist. I've said that many times. It's that the flag represents TRAITORS and should not be celebrated at all for that reason alone.

In the eye of the beholder, yes Naval Jack is a symbol of traitors. However, in the eyes of the United Kingdom, Ole Glory is also a symbol of rebellion and treason. But then again, to the victor goes the spoils of war. All that this is a interpretation of what you see when you study history.

And for the record, Lord Palmerston was very close to recognizing the CSA.

[TrueDawg]

Jackson was the worst racists of all. Look what he did to the Cherokee. Granted I do like to read the stories of Jackson, he was a very wild and entertaining character but clearly not a role model.

The war of Northern Aggression was much more about states rights and political conflicts than it was about slavery. Slavery was the way for northern politicians to get the public to support the war effort. As soon as the war was over the northern politicians could give 2 shats about the freedman. That's why reconstruction was such a failure.

But back to the topic I think unfortunately the schools using those mascots or likenesses have a very tough decision to make. I am going to say most of the supposed "offended" folks couldn't even tell you what the Dixie flag even means????? It has become more of a symbol of southern culture than it is a political or racist symbol.

[Pulp Fiction]

Here are just a few examples off the top of my head that can be listed as offensive. I didn't even look add high school or college teams.

Jeep Grand Cherokee

Kentucky = "Dark Bloody Ground"
Oklahoma = "Red People"

Minnesota Vikings
Cleveland Browns
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Kansas City Chiefs

New York Yankees
Atlanta Braves
Cleveland Indians
Pittsburgh Pirates
Cincinnati Reds

Carolina Hurricanes
Montreal Canadiens
New Jersey Devils
Chicago Blackhawks

[RunItUpTheGut]

Ive noticed a trend among supposed "scholars" this past week.
They've often brought up the issue of slavery when discussing the confederate flag. Don't misinterpret what im about to say because the only flag I have is a white one for surrender when my wifes mad enough.

But, to any "scholar" who actually believe that the civil war was because of slavery is an absolute idiot. The civil war was fought for one thing. MONEY. Lincoln knew letting the South succeed from the Union meant financial collapse. And rightfully so. Lincoln threw in the emancipation proclamation just for kicks.
I cant even watch the news or read online articles anymore without almost throwing up. The amount of whining is so far past normal its ludicrous. Does everyone in this country no longer have anything to do but cry about something? The fact that we seen a supreme court majority rule twice against the constitution this week tells me all I need to know about the direction were heading in. Ive always felt that this country was never that bad in terms of transparency and laws. Now, its as though its a new cry fest everyday over something else. It really does worry me that this country will rip itself apart once again. I wouldn't be surprised for a minute if someone took a leadership role to rebel against the government and whatever that thing is currently occupying the white house. Its all become one big joke, but its a joke that isn't funny.

As for flags, who cares, take them down. But also take down everything on government property. Don't even waste taxpayer money on a flag pole for the United States flag anymore, I don't care. Just remember though, the first time someone goes to a Martin Luther King statue and paints "white lives matter" on it, there is absolutely no reason to get upset when the same thing is happening to statues of confederate soldiers. Just because you think they were wrong, it doesn't matter, people are entitled to there opinions, and theyre both vandalism no matter which way you slice it.

[RunItUpTheGut]

That goatee wearing cane wielder could also be called a Colonel. One of these days, after the Political Correctness Police liberals do away with the confederate flag and the name "rebel" for good....they will go after the Colonels mascot next because that could be considered just another name for a rebel plantation owner. Then Whitley is square in the crosshairs of the PC police. Maybe take a demotion to the Captains or switch armed forces to the (Danville) Admirals or the (Perry County Central) Commodores. I personally think that Whitley County Jarheads sounds pretty catchy.:biggrin: Like ol' Merle Haggard says in that old song, "We'll all be drinking that free Bubble Up and eating that Rainbow Stew" before the liberals are happy.inglepar

We could always go back to the Red Storm days nicker:

Personally id prefer to have a mascot no one else has.

[Real Badman]

We will see a new civil war within our lifetimes. Sad and difficult times lay ahead.

[pjdoug]

Ive noticed a trend among supposed "scholars" this past week.
They've often brought up the issue of slavery when discussing the confederate flag. Don't misinterpret what im about to say because the only flag I have is a white one for surrender when my wifes mad enough.

But, to any "scholar" who actually believe that the civil war was because of slavery is an absolute idiot. The civil war was fought for one thing. MONEY. Lincoln knew letting the South succeed from the Union meant financial collapse. And rightfully so. Lincoln threw in the emancipation proclamation just for kicks.
I cant even watch the news or read online articles anymore without almost throwing up. The amount of whining is so far past normal its ludicrous. Does everyone in this country no longer have anything to do but cry about something? The fact that we seen a supreme court majority rule twice against the constitution this week tells me all I need to know about the direction were heading in. Ive always felt that this country was never that bad in terms of transparency and laws. Now, its as though its a new cry fest everyday over something else. It really does worry me that this country will rip itself apart once again. I wouldn't be surprised for a minute if someone took a leadership role to rebel against the government and whatever that thing is currently occupying the white house. Its all become one big joke, but its a joke that isn't funny.

As for flags, who cares, take them down. But also take down everything on government property. Don't even waste taxpayer money on a flag pole for the United States flag anymore, I don't care. Just remember though, the first time someone goes to a Martin Luther King statue and paints "white lives matter" on it, there is absolutely no reason to get upset when the same thing is happening to statues of confederate soldiers. Just because you think they were wrong, it doesn't matter, people are entitled to there opinions, and theyre both vandalism no matter which way you slice it.

glad to see somebody else tell it how it really is. news literally makes me sick,especially lately so I try not to watch it or listen to it but it seems I cant avoid it. one of the vandalized memorials in Asheville,NC was related to me and I didnt realize it until I saw the video on here,but thats beside the point.it goes back to what I said about the vandals in Corbin.they have too much time on their hands and need to be punished and do a few weeks community service instead of nothing being done because "their feelings are hurt".

[pjdoug]

We will see a new civil war within our lifetimes. Sad and difficult times lay ahead.

I think you are right.

[papagrit]

I'd have liked Gut's post above twice if I could have. I started to rant about the Supreme Court Decision that happened yesterday, but it wouldn't do any good. I'll just watch my Antenna and ME TV stations and the shows from the 50's to the 80's. Modern Family and the shows broadcast these days make me want to barf.

[pjdoug]

I'd have liked Gut's post above twice if I could have. I started to rant about the Supreme Court Decision that happened yesterday, but it wouldn't do any good. I'll just watch my Antenna and ME TV stations and the shows from the 50's to the 80's. Modern Family and the shows broadcast these days make me want to barf.

I love Antenna and ME TV

[Lilly]

Its a shame its took a national tragedy( and it is) for myself, Gut, and pjdoug to all agree. I agree with you guys. I know I talk alot of trash and stir the pot but I am 100% with you on this one.

[Winterweather]

I dont think the nickname rebels has to be abandoned.

I do think any use or reference to the confederate flag needs to stop.

[pjdoug]

I dont think the nickname rebels has to be abandoned.

I do think any use or reference to the confederate flag needs to stop.

I think that you suggesting the confederate flag should be stopped needs to stop.you are offending me.

[Big Five-0-]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I had ancestors on both sides in the Civil War. I am proud of being from what I consider the "South". I believe in manners including opening doors for women, saying "thank you" and "please" and I am VERY conservative about the way I feel about gun rights and other hot button issues (eg...homosexuality and abortion). I also pray that the devil in South Carolina who killed those poor people at that church gets the chair for what he's done. I don't apologize for identifying with the south though, no matter how much brow beating or finger pointing someone wants to do trying to shame me for doing so. I am also proud of being a U.S. citizen and I've had family who have participated in World Wars II and Korea. You can be from the South, proud of it, and proud to be from the U.S. and not be treasonous to your country. Like I said, opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. Some just sound off more than others.
That's all of my rant......

Very well said papagrit.

[Big Five-0-]

I'm offended when they stuff cotton down an aspirin bottle. That's oppressive to that little white ball of cotton. He didn't do anything to deserve that. That's offensive! nicker: Where does it end?