[ekff]

G.O.A.T. #18 Peyton Manning....

He's not slowing down..
Career Records are about to start falling...

Passing Yards - 66,257 regular season (2nd) - 6,589 playoffs 91 (1st)

Passing TD's - 503 regular season (2nd) - 37 playoffs (4th)

Passes Complete - 5,637 regular season (2nd) - 572 (2nd)

Passer Rating - 97.4 regular season (2nd) - 89.2 (10th)

Game winning drives - 51 (1st)
4thQ Come Backs - 40 (1st)

[mr.fundamental]

Joe Montana or Terry Bradshaw 4 Superbowls a piece! At the end of the day you play for the trophy!

[ekff]

Joe Montana or Terry Bradshaw 4 Superbowls a piece! At the end of the day you play for the trophy!

Peyton Manning can only play Offense.... Defense, Defense, Defense....

Rings/Championship are the most overrated stat to use when talking about individual stuff..

Dan Marino is a lot better than Russell Wilson

[LWC]

I think championships should have at least 25% weight or more for the QB but it should not matter for any other position.

The QB is directly responsible for calling plays, audibles, and getting the ball distributed to different players whether through a pass or handoff.

No, the QB does not play defense but also that is neither here nor there. No matter how good a defense is, a game cannot be won unless you score more points than the other team. Unless your team's defense is legendary and wins games through INT and fumble returns for touchdowns, the offense or (rarely) special teams must score.

One must for any QB to ever be the greatest is they must have won at least one NFL championship. You play to win the game, not to collect stats.

Thus, for me the criterion for greatest QB ever should be determined in this order:
1. Passing TD's to INT's ratio
2. Passing TD's
3. Super Bowl rings
4. Conference championships
5. Low number of turnovers relative to similar players (i.e. Player A and B are similar except player A had 400 fumbles and player B had 150.)
5. Regular season wins
6. Passing yards
7. Extra stats (rushing yards, receiving yards, etch..)

The next post will have my list.

[LWC]

I began this list with the top 11 leaders in passing touchdowns.

Any player that never won a championship is automatically off the list. This removed Marino, Tarkinton, Testaverde, etc....

Anyone that is in the top 10-12 in career interceptions is knocked off the list. Thus, Favre and Unitas were fairly turnover prone and took too many chances. Thus, they are removed from the list.

That narrows the list to five players (their career rank in passing touchdowns is listed):

2. Peyton Manning 503
4. Drew Brees 372
5. Tom Brady 365
7. John Elway 300
11. Joe Montana 273

If multiple Super Bowl championships are irrelevant to you, then the individual numbers are HEAVILY in favor to Peyton Manning. I would be perfectly content to accept an argument for him as the greatest QB ever.

If you rate by a more even comparison of Super Bowl wins and individual stats then the next criteria is Super Bowl rings:

I want to this by saying that I do not count rings as a criteria for players that did not play a significant role in winning that ring. No examples come to mind but if, for example, Dan Marino were to play an extra season or two as a backup QB that never took the field and won a rings behind Favre, I would not count that ring for legacy purposes.

Thus, here is the list now to reflect Super Bowl wins-losses:
2. Peyton Manning 1-2
4. Drew Brees 1-0
5. Tom Brady 3-2
7. John Elway 2-3
11. Joe Montana 4-0

In this list one GLARING stat is illuminated: Drew Breese only has one appearance and every other player has at least 3. I believe that has to eliminate him.

Peyton Manning has lead his teams to 3 appearances, which means he has 3 conference championships. In a vacuum that is fantastic. However, cast against some of these others, we have to weigh that against QB's with multiple championships.

John Elway has multiple championships but also has a losing record in the Super Bowl. Weighed against Brady and Montana who have 3 and 4 titles with a winning record, Elway is eliminated.

That leaves us with Tom Brady and Joe Montana as our final two in this type of list. Montana has a perfect 4-0 record but Brady has 5 total appearances. Montana has a perfect record however his coach and main teammates won an extra ring with Young. It is highly doubtful that the same can be said of the Patriots without Brady. At this point you have to either make a favorite pick or use other types of stats or contextual insights. I will leave it at those two for the championships argument.
-----------

Now, for me personally, it comes down to a combination of everything we mentioned above. That leads me to three players:
P. Manning
T. Brady
J. Montana

Peyton CLEARLY DOMINATES the statistical, individual categories by a landslide among the three, has a Super Bowl ring, and has three appearances in the big game. Almost by default, I give him the edge. However, as stated above, I only put about a 25% weight on championships.

I cannot buy any argument that does not include either Manning, Brady, or Montana as the best ever. Numbers and titles cannot support such a claim. By the time his career is finished, Drew Breese can make a case if he makes and wins another Super Bowl or two. Anyone else currently playing has too much work to do and we will have to wait and see.

[ekff]

Tom Brady in 2001-2003, he was a game manager.
2001 - 2,843 yards, 18 td's, 12 Int's
2002 - 3,763 yards, 28 td's, 14 Int's
2003 - 3,620 yards, 23 td's, 12 Int's

Peyton Manning has thrown for 4,000 yards in 13 of his 15 seasons. With 3,739 being the lowest.


Plus, Pats cheated!!!! If Pete Rose can't go into the Hall of Fame, Tom Brady can't be the GOAT...

[LWC]

Tom Brady in 2001-2003, he was a game manager.
2001 - 2,843 yards, 18 td's, 12 Int's
2002 - 3,763 yards, 28 td's, 14 Int's
2003 - 3,620 yards, 23 td's, 12 Int's

Peyton Manning has thrown for 4,000 yards in 13 of his 15 seasons. With 3,739 being the lowest.


Plus, Pats cheated!!!! If Pete Rose can't go into the Hall of Fame, Tom Brady can't be the GOAT...

In 2001, possibly. However, those other two seasons are great seasons for a QB.

The Pat's front office and video crews cheated, yet, it doesn't mean that Tom Brady did something for himself to improve his talents or give himself a competitive advantage that was illegal.

Pete Rose is a different sport and issue.

I am NOT a Patriots fan and actually prefer Manning to Brady. BUT, I would be ignorant to deny that Tom Brady is at LEAST a Top 8 QB of all time. It pains me to say it but his numbers AND rings back it up. Do a blind resume and ignore your Brady hate to truly step back and see greatness.

[LWC]

Tom Brady in 2001-2003, he was a game manager.
2001 - 2,843 yards, 18 td's, 12 Int's
2002 - 3,763 yards, 28 td's, 14 Int's
2003 - 3,620 yards, 23 td's, 12 Int's

Peyton Manning has thrown for 4,000 yards in 13 of his 15 seasons. With 3,739 being the lowest.


Plus, Pats cheated!!!! If Pete Rose can't go into the Hall of Fame, Tom Brady can't be the GOAT...

Also:
2007- 4,806 yards, 50 TD's 8 INT's.
2010- 3900 yards, 36 TD's 4 INT's.
2012- 4827 yards, 34 TD's 8 INT's.

[ekff]

LWC, lol i was bored at work just tried to get someone to argue with me... Brady would be in my top 5 but Manning for sure my GOAT.

[LWC]

LWC, lol i was bored at work just tried to get someone to argue with me... Brady would be in my top 5 but Manning for sure my GOAT.

I figured. Research for fun things can be fun. Thus, I had fun looking up and deducing things.

[Westside]

Joe Montana IMO is the greatest of all time.

[zaga_fan]

I think you can take Marino, Montana, Bradshaw, Brady, Manning and Favre and put them in any order you want.

Like ekff said... it's hard to go by Superbowls because QBs are only on the field 1/2 of the time.

But I will also say... it's hard to go purely on stats because just like the QBs don't pick their defenses... they don't pick their WRs either.

I think if Manning or Favre were on the Patriots Super Bowl teams their numbers would go down - but Brady on some of Manning's Colts teams and his numbers would go up.

[honestjchsfan]

I think you can take Marino, Montana, Bradshaw, Brady, Manning and Favre and put them in any order you want.

Like ekff said... it's hard to go by Superbowls because QBs are only on the field 1/2 of the time.

But I will also say... it's hard to go purely on stats because just like the QBs don't pick their defenses... they don't pick their WRs either.

I think if Manning or Favre were on the Patriots Super Bowl teams their numbers would go down - but Brady on some of Manning's Colts teams and his numbers would go up.

I don't put Manning or Brady in the same class as a Montana or Marino. The rules of the game have changed so much. Back in the 70's and 80's WRs hated to catch the ball over the middle because they had to pay the price! Today you can't lead with the head you can't do this you can't do that! People that don't know football don't understand that the "Read Option" stuff is not new. Teams didn't run that stuff in the NFL because they wanted there QB to survive one game! The rules of the game have changed to protect running QB's and to protect QB's as a whole. It's hard telling what kind of stats Marino would have in today's game!

[Crazy Horse]

1) Peyton Manning
2) Tom Brady
3) Joe Montana
4) Terry Bradshaw
5) Dan Marino

[ekff]

I don't put Manning or Brady in the same class as a Montana or Marino. The rules of the game have changed so much. Back in the 70's and 80's WRs hated to catch the ball over the middle because they had to pay the price! Today you can't lead with the head you can't do this you can't do that! People that don't know football don't understand that the "Read Option" stuff is not new. Teams didn't run that stuff in the NFL because they wanted there QB to survive one game! The rules of the game have changed to protect running QB's and to protect QB's as a whole. It's hard telling what kind of stats Marino would have in today's game!

Bull....

Look at it this way... Def Players are faster and stronger now than ever before...

[Ballers]

Tom Brady #12 G.O.A.T

[honestjchsfan]

Bull....

Look at it this way... Def Players are faster and stronger now than ever before...

I don't know why people automatically assume that today's athletes are always better? I will use the Carl Lewis example in Track and field to explain this to you. The past TWO Olympics Champions at the long jump won the Gold with Jumps of 27feet something CARL LEWIS JUMPED at least 28Feet at Major meets in the long JUMP for 7 straight years in the 80's IF todays athletes are always better why aren't today's long Jumpers consistently jumping 28 feet like Carl Lewis did??? There answer is real simple: Today's athletes are not always better!! Another point I will make about the NFL and the Athletes of the 70's and 80's in that league is that they DID NOT START TESTING FOR STEROIDS UNTIL 1987! They never issued any suspensions until the 1989 season! We all know about the impact of steroids in baseball and that sports records and stats. If you think today's NFL players are playing at a higher physical level now than they did during the legal steroid period of NFL you are Crazy! Look at Baseball we haven't saw any more 60 or 70 homerun seasons since steroids became illegal have we????

[honestjchsfan]

Bull....

Look at it this way... Def Players are faster and stronger now than ever before...

Google Jack Tatum he put a man in a wheel chair. Comparing Manning or Brady's stats to Montana or Marino's stats is like comparing apples and oranges! Brady has made a living throwing the ball over the middle but in today's game he can do that because helmet to helmet hits are illegal now. Plus the rule that allows the QB to throw the ball away when he is outside of the pocket now allows the QBs stats to improve vastly, he doesn't have to throw the ball in the direction of a eligible receiver now, this reduces the number hits he takes and greatly reduces the number INTS which improves the QB rating. Montana was a great "roll out" passer and had that rule been in play when he was playing anybody that ever watched him play knows he would have took way fewer hits and threw fewer INTs. :closeenough:

[zaga_fan]

Google Jack Tatum he put a man in a wheel chair. Comparing Manning or Brady's stats to Montana or Marino's stats is like comparing apples and oranges! Brady has made a living throwing the ball over the middle but in today's game he can do that because helmet to helmet hits are illegal now. Plus the rule that allows the QB to throw the ball away when he is outside of the pocket now allows the QBs stats to improve vastly, he doesn't have to throw the ball in the direction of a eligible receiver now, this reduces the number hits he takes and greatly reduces the number INTS which improves the QB rating. Montana was a great "roll out" passer and had that rule been in play when he was playing anybody that ever watched him play knows he would have took way fewer hits and threw fewer INTs. :closeenough:

I don't think it helps your stats all that much to throw an incompletion.

And I see the point you're trying to make...
I just don't think that it's factual.

[ekff]

I don't know why people automatically assume that today's athletes are always better? I will use the Carl Lewis example in Track and field to explain this to you. The past TWO Olympics Champions at the long jump won the Gold with Jumps of 27feet something CARL LEWIS JUMPED at least 28Feet at Major meets in the long JUMP for 7 straight years in the 80's IF todays athletes are always better why aren't today's long Jumpers consistently jumping 28 feet like Carl Lewis did??? There answer is real simple: Today's athletes are not always better!! Another point I will make about the NFL and the Athletes of the 70's and 80's in that league is that they DID NOT START TESTING FOR STEROIDS UNTIL 1987! They never issued any suspensions until the 1989 season! We all know about the impact of steroids in baseball and that sports records and stats. If you think today's NFL players are playing at a higher physical level now than they did during the legal steroid period of NFL you are Crazy! Look at Baseball we haven't saw any more 60 or 70 homerun seasons since steroids became illegal have we????

I don't know why people assume that yesterdays athletes are better...

Training is better now...

[ekff]

I don't think its even close.... #1 Manning, I would put Brady at #5

People don't forget the Manning and Brady both sat a whole year... Due to injuries but yet ppl say the rules are protecting them...

1) Peyton Manning
2) Joe Montana
3) Brett Favre
4) Dan Marino
5) Tom Brady

[honestjchsfan]

I don't think it helps your stats all that much to throw an incompletion.

And I see the point you're trying to make...
I just don't think that it's factual.

Oh yes this rule changed the game when a QB needed to throw the ball away before he had to throw in the direction of receiver which meant he had to still look down field lots of INTs and fumbles happened when the QB was faced with this. Now when a QB wants to throw the ball away all he needs to do is get outside the tackle box and throw it into the stands.

[Harry Rex Vonner]

I'll take Otto Graham, Norman Van Brocklin, Johnny Unitas, and Bobby Layne. Too bad that they all played prior to the glitz, souped up era of today.

[Quickkickonthird]

I have seen a lot of good ones over the years and I never thought I would ever say anyone was better than Montana, but Manning may just be the all time best. I dont think u come to this conclusion solely on championships or solely on stats....its simply an opinion based on a combination of all aspects. Some of the great ones whose names I havent seen on this thread yet: Fran Tarkington and Roger Staubach. I also think that Terry Bradshaw may be the most under-rated player of all time. Also, on the today's players vs. yesterday's players arguement: Johnny Unitas would have been a great player today as would Norm Van Brocklin.

People dont take into consideration that the rule change in the early 80's that allowed off linemen to use their hands away from their body in pass protection completely changed the passing game. It allowed the development of the modern passing offenses of today!

[Spud6]

If we are going by just straight being a great QB and playing the position. But I know a lot of people like to throw the "How many Super Bowl rings does he have?" talk into it. Which I think is bogus, cause a lot more has to go into play than just a QB if you want to talk about that.

[zaga_fan]

^ The best players do what their team needs them to do to win games.

I will say in football it shouldn't be weighted as much as it is in basketball.

[Clint Westwood]

I'll take Otto Graham, Norman Van Brocklin, Johnny Unitas, and Bobby Layne. Too bad that they all played prior to the glitz, souped up era of today.

Geesh, just how old are you?

[Patch]

QB's might only be on the field half the time, but when on the field they are touching the ball nearly 100% of the time and no other position dominates the game and demands as much attention as the quarterback. With rule changes it is hard to compare them because the game has changed so much, quarterbacks pass the ball sometimes more in one game now than they did in two games in the 70's, when Bradshaw played for instance. With his arm, the line that he played behind and the offensive weapons he had around him, had he played in an era like now with a pass heavy offense his stats would have been very comparable to those of today. The five best I ever saw would have been great no matter when they would have played, just might not have had the gaudy stats that some of them have had.

1. Joe Montana
2. Tom Brady
3. Petyon Manning
4. Dan Marino
5. Terry Bradshaw

[Clint Westwood]

You seen Bradshaw play?

[Patch]

Uh, yeah, on television. I graduated in 1980, so I got to see the great Steeler teams. You look like a Cowboy fan, that would make a lot of sense.