[More Cowbell]

Is it right for the KHSAA , an entity not governed under Kentucky law, to punish students who get retained a grade by a parent who has the right to hold a student back nowhere under KRS does it say a parent cannot hold a student back. But, khsaa says they cannot participate if they do. If its in the best interest of the student and post retention they do not turn 19 prior to AUG 1 of senior year making them ineligible to participate they should be allowed to play. I'm pretty sure that's why the Aug 1st birthday rule is in effect anyway . Punishing athletes who are held back in middle school is ridiculous. let them play ball!

How can Khsaa who is not governed by kentucky legislature make decisions of punishment in our public schools?

KHSAA is not making decisions of punishment, they're making decisions on eligibility. All member schools agree to abide by the rules of the KHSAA when they join.

If you think about it, it's kind of like college. You only have 4 years of playing eligibility. If you redshirt your freshman year to get stronger, you sit out a year from competition. You don't get a extra (5th year) of eligibility. Same principle, you get 4 years of high school eligibility, 1 year of 8th grade, 1 year of 7th grade, etc. That way every kid gets the same number of playing years.

[new o]

Bottom line, its a parent decision and no one elses. It becomes a problem when other parents worry about other peoples kids. I have seen kids stay back that were average at sports and no one cares but when a kid that is good stays back people start saying how wrong it is.

[nky]

It amazing how some are so up in arms about this. Maybe you should be up in arms about the education your child is getting. After all it's the education that will get them though life not a game they play in high school or middle school.

[warmachine]

nKy, I think sports help mold you for what life brings at you. Education is great but playing sports is very important as well. Learning to be social and how to work with others (by playing sports) helps you get ready for life.

[oneijoe]

It amazing how some are so up in arms about this. Maybe you should be up in arms about the education your child is getting. After all it's the education that will get them though life not a game they play in high school or middle school.

Absolutely true... :Thumbs:

But keeping it solely within the realm of athletics, there's also a question of fairness which holding back a student violates. If a good 6th grade 11 y/o ballplayer is held back a year (for athletic "excellence" or whatever) and competes the following year as a 12 y/o, a non-level playing field is created since this 12 y/o (in the fast growing years) is now playing against smaller 11 y/o kids.

Everything shouldn't revolve around varsity sports. Allowing the hold back of kids for athletic reasons is simply not fair to the -competing- kids in 6th grade who are progressing normally.



:popcorn:

[Wildcat18]

It amazing how some are so up in arms about this. Maybe you should be up in arms about the education your child is getting. After all it's the education that will get them though life not a game they play in high school or middle school.

5 years ago, I would have agreed with you. Being around adolescents on a daily basis now, it's more clear for me personally. Some kids absolutely hate school, there's no way around it. There are a few kids I've been around that would probably quit school altogether if it weren't for their love of football. Priorities are jacked up, but it is what it is. It's a motivational tool that forces you to complete your school work. ALL teams that I'm aware of require players to make certain grades to even participate. Some parents do not push their kids in the classroom. It's sad, but it happens more than you may think. Some need athletics to get that chance to attend college that they may not otherwise get. Some aren't as gifted in the classroom as others. If you're from a place where EVERY student-athlete has never fell under one of the categories I've mentioned, I want to see it.

[Spirit100]

How many ways can you kick the same dead horse...

:yesno:

[HDE]

Absolutely true... :Thumbs:

But keeping it solely within the realm of athletics, there's also a question of fairness which holding back a student violates. If a good 6th grade 11 y/o ballplayer is held back a year (for athletic "excellence" or whatever) and competes the following year as a 12 y/o, a non-level playing field is created since this 12 y/o (in the fast growing years) is now playing against smaller 11 y/o kids.

Everything shouldn't revolve around varsity sports. Allowing the hold back of kids for athletic reasons is simply not fair to the -competing- kids in 6th grade who are progressing normally.



:popcorn:

That's why the ages rules are in place.
There's no way to make it perfectly even since there will always be a wide range of birthdays.
Some wait to start their children in school to get them an extra year, so is that really any different than repeating a grade. The student is the same age in high school either way.

[baseball1974]

There is no way a kid should be allowed to compete for the same grade twice. At the end of the day, playing sports is not a right, it is a privilege. Parents sometimes forget that. If it is beneficial for the child on a developmental level, then it should happen very early on in their elementary school years. That is the only reason a kid should be held back. Most parents recognize their child may not be developing at the same rate before they ever enter school. That is when they may choose to start them late. Other than that, you step over a clear line of what sports should be about, and why it is looked upon as a privilege.

[nky]

Absolutely true... :Thumbs:

But keeping it solely within the realm of athletics, there's also a question of fairness which holding back a student violates. If a good 6th grade 11 y/o ballplayer is held back a year (for athletic "excellence" or whatever) and competes the following year as a 12 y/o, a non-level playing field is created since this 12 y/o (in the fast growing years) is now playing against smaller 11 y/o kids.

Everything shouldn't revolve around varsity sports. Allowing the hold back of kids for athletic reasons is simply not fair to the -competing- kids in 6th grade who are progressing normally.



:popcorn:

Fairness? what is this a communist country? everyone is not going to be equal, everyone shouldn't get a trophy, orange slices, and a juice box. :moon::concentratetongue:oh never mind

[nky]

5 years ago, I would have agreed with you. Being around adolescents on a daily basis now, it's more clear for me personally. Some kids absolutely hate school, there's no way around it. There are a few kids I've been around that would probably quit school altogether if it weren't for their love of football. Priorities are jacked up, but it is what it is. It's a motivational tool that forces you to complete your school work. ALL teams that I'm aware of require players to make certain grades to even participate. Some parents do not push their kids in the classroom. It's sad, but it happens more than you may think. Some need athletics to get that chance to attend college that they may not otherwise get. Some aren't as gifted in the classroom as others. If you're from a place where EVERY student-athlete has never fell under one of the categories I've mentioned, I want to see it.

In the end it's not athletics that will pay the bills. It may be a temporary fix (getting the grades to play) but in the long run it will not help. An education is forever. If the student needs athletics to get by in highschool they are wasting their money in college.

[nky]

nKy, I think sports help mold you for what life brings at you. Education is great but playing sports is very important as well. Learning to be social and how to work with others (by playing sports) helps you get ready for life.

:lame: to a point. Getting an education gets you ready for life. Some of our state's districts need to understand this better.

[Daddycat27]

Personally, I think holding kids back for sports is wrong! If they have a Reading disability, or some other academic issues then fine. I have seen 1st hand that most of the students regret the action that their parents have done. It gives sports teams an unfair advantage! If you take a 12 yr. old, who is repeating the 6th grade for the 2nd time and that child is turning 13 on Aug. 2nd. What's fair about that especially if you have 6-7 of them the same year. I like the rule. At least they will have to compete against players of a similar age and build.

[warmachine]

Well I think holding a kid back is a great idea. Life isnt fair. Some people are born with more athletic ability and not as much academic potential. All men are not created equal. It is what it is. Some have to stay back and hit the weights and work like a dog to compete with a more gifted athlete. I dont remember many of my geometry or algebra tests back in school but you can bet your hindend that I remember most of my football, basketball, and baseball games. Those were the best days of my life. Id love to relive them again. Wished I'd stayed back!!!!!

[THE_WAY_I_SEE_IT]

The rule has nothing to do with staying back!! All you're focusing on is they can't tell us to hold our kids back or not.......stay back as long as you want. Khsaa is saying you cant play twice in the same grade thats all. Parents are hoping if they hold their kids back then they will grow and get better and noticed by some college scout and be offered a scholarship. By the time they get to high school the playing is so leveled by then it doesn't stand out nearly as much. College coaches and scouts look at grades just as hard. They love the athletes that they know will never have an issue in the classroom. This is from personal experience on the coaching side of things.

[pjdoug]

^Under water lol.nicker:

:thatsfunn

[charlie22]

Off the topic (sort of) of whether the KHSAA should have a say on the eligibility of kids held back, but there is a lot of incorrect information in here about the KHSAA.

The KHSAA is indeed governed and controlled by state laws. It is a state agent and thus must comply with the state laws that other state agencies do.

The Kentucky Department of Education has direct control of the KHSAA. In fact, no rules can be implemented by the KHSAA (or existing rules amended) without those rules first being approved by the KDE and then a subcommittee of the General Assembly (the ARRS subcommittee).

While there are those out there that think the member schools control the KHSAA, that's not really accurate. They do elect 14 of the 18 members of the Board of Control (the other 4 are appointed by KDE) and thus have power over the implementation of the KHSAA's rules, but since KDE and the ARRS subcommittee have the final say on the KHSAA rules, the member schools ability to tell the KHSAA what the rules will be, really isn't accurate. In fact, the vote 4 or 5 years ago to separate the private schools from the public schools was ultimately shot down by KDE (the BOC voted against the separation by a 1 vote margin if I recall properly) but if KDE and ARRS wanted to, they could have enacted the separation more than 2/3s of the schools had voted for. But KDE thought it was a bad idea. Furthermore, it was ARRS that told the KHSAA that they could no longer sanction a school if the school played a kid that had obtained a temporary injunction and the injunction was later overturned. I'm sure that a large majority of the schools like the KHSAA having the ability to impose sanctions, but it didn't matter what the member schools thought; it mattered what the ARRS thought.

The KHSAA serves at the pleasure of KDE on a year to year basis. KDE could, if it wanted and the General Assembly agreed, terminate the KHSAA's authority over high school athletics.

KDE and the ARRS are evidently fine with the KHSAA's rule involving the ineligibility of a kid held back, or the rule simply wouldn't be in place. The rule is not in place at the whim of Tackett or any other staff member at KHSAA (or the BOC for that matter). It is a rule that KDE and the ARRS want to be in place.

[footballfever]

The rule has nothing to do with staying back!! All you're focusing on is they can't tell us to hold our kids back or not.......stay back as long as you want. Khsaa is saying you cant play twice in the same grade thats all. Parents are hoping if they hold their kids back then they will grow and get better and noticed by some college scout and be offered a scholarship. By the time they get to high school the playing is so leveled by then it doesn't stand out nearly as much. College coaches and scouts look at grades just as hard. They love the athletes that they know will never have an issue in the classroom. This is from personal experience on the coaching side of things.

I agree but does everyone realize less than 4% of graduating senior football players will receive any kind of football scholarship.!!!!

[RunItUpTheGut]

Im surprised some of the argument is about 17 year olds not being ready to graduate.

One question, why did the parents start them that early?!?!?!
Some of these responses crack me up. Start your kid when he will turn 18 before graduation, or even 19 as long as he doesn't turn 19 before August 1st then there is no problem.

[RunItUpTheGut]

The KHSAA only gives lip service to what schools want. They only act on what is best for them financially. If they actually went by what schools wanted then private schools would not be competing with public shools in football. (Schools voted this way in 2010 or something like that) and it was pushed under table. The KHSAA has gotten rid of limitation of seasons basically for all sports (except football) opening up a whole new problem for smaller schools. It is just a very political entity within the DPE. Overall kind of useless

The KHSAA cant do anything or make any rules without the state agreeing to it!
If you don't like that, vote in new politicians.

[pjdoug]

Im surprised some of the argument is about 17 year olds not being ready to graduate.

One question, why did the parents start them that early?!?!?!
Some of these responses crack me up. Start your kid when he will turn 18 before graduation, or even 19 as long as he doesn't turn 19 before August 1st then there is no problem.

it has nothing to do with helping the kid and parents holding them back for academic reasons. truth is,the schools are holding kids back to gain advantage on the football field.people are so full of it .some whine and cry because it isn't legal for them to cheat nicker:

[HDE]

Here's something I don't get to say often. I agree with what Gut said.

[Raiderforlife]

I have no problem with a parent holding their kid back for whatever reason. It is ultimately the parents decision. What will be interesting is since we are looking at not allowing kids to play sports during a holdback year, what will happen when other kids are allowed to holdback and still participate as a member of the academic team, band, etc. We all know that lawyers are going to enter the mix at some point.

I have to tell you that the idea that a parent would hold a child back purely for athletic reasons is disturbing and borders on being negligent to the point of removing a child from that family. Some simple facts. Last year at Ryle high schoollstudents earned over 8 million dollars in academic scholarships while the athletes were awarded under $300,000. Less than 1% of all high school athletes will receive a single dime for athletics. Students who have failed a grade receive even less. Those stats are consistent across. Public education. The numbers do change when you look at private schools.

State statistics show that student who were held back be it for academic or social reasons perform 50 % below their same age peers and attend secondary institutions at 1/6 the rate of their peers. Ultimately students who are held back especially after the 4 th grade are 7 times more likely to receive public assistance. A significant number of those students go on to suffer from low self esteem and social anxieties that lead them down a path of social isolation.

Having said that I see this phenomenon more often in poor underperforming communities where kids and parents are hopeless. i believe that parents that hold their children back with no regard for their educational well being are abusive and negligent. They may as well be Ray Rice.

[insideinfo]

What is the difference in a holding a kid back in the 1st grade , and holding a kid back in Middle school they are the same age.

[HDE]

No difference. Just another northern Kentuckian trying to make themselves feel superior.

[Raiderforlife]

The fact that you feel inferior because I gave you hard cold facts speaks volumes. The difference is that the child held back at an earlier age is more often held back due to developmental issues. Early identification usually leads to the child receiving the help they need. Parents need to stop trying to relive their lives through their children. Sorry that hurts your feelings!

[insideinfo]

I agree but does everyone realize less than 4% of graduating senior football players will receive any kind of football scholarship.!!!!

My oldest one went on to play NAIA baseball, the first year I believe his scholarship was for 3000 a semester, by his Senior year it was around 6 or 7000 a semester. Most of this money was academic scholarships that he could have got at any school he chose to go to.He could of payed in state tuition at a state school for less than we payed the private school, meaning we basically payed to play baseball for four years. But this was his dream, and is something that he will always cherish. My middle one which was my best athlete by along shot had small school scholarship offers in swimming, tennis , and cheerleading. She chose not to play sports because she had seen the the sacrifice her brother had given. Went on to college and by her third year was on her fourth major, we hope to be graduating after six years this May, my fingers are crossed.LOL. My youngest one which I held back, telling my self it was to get some separation between her sister going into college, but really it was just to keep her around a little longer so her mother and I could enjoy our kids childhood a little longer. She had NAIA basketball scholarship offers. She chose not to play for some of the same reason her sister did, and none of the schools that offered had the major that she was pursuing. She also earned over 10,000 in academic scholarships last year alone. She is now in second year of college and set on her major and should graduate in four years. I know all kids are different, but I think holding her back let her mature a little more giving her time to decide on what she wanted to do in life. This is something that I would do again and again.My biggest regret was that I didn't hold my other two back.

[insideinfo]

I agree but does everyone realize less than 4% of graduating senior football players will receive any kind of football scholarship.!!!!

My oldest one went on to play NAIA baseball, the first year I believe his scholarship was for 3000 a semester, by his Senior year it was around 6 or 7000 a semester. Most of this money was academic scholarships that he could have got at any school he chose to go to.He could of payed in state tuition at a state school for less than we payed the private school, meaning we basically payed to play baseball for four years. But this was his dream, and is something that he will always cherish. My middle one which was my best athlete by along shot had small school scholarship offers in swimming, tennis , and cheerleading. She chose not to play sports because she had seen the the sacrifice her brother had given. Went on to college and by her third year was on her fourth major, we hope to be graduating after six years this May, my fingers are crossed.LOL. My youngest one which I held back, telling my self it was to get some separation between her sister going into college, but really it was just to keep her around a little longer so her mother and I could enjoy our kids childhood a little longer. She had NAIA basketball scholarship offers. She chose not to play for some of the same reason her sister did, and none of the schools that offered had the major that she was pursuing. She also earned over 10,000 in academic scholarships last year alone. She is now in second year of college and set on her major and should graduate in four years. I know all kids are different, but I think holding her back let her mature a little more giving her time to decide on what she wanted to do in life. This is something that I would do again and again.My biggest regret was that I didn't hold my other two back.

[HDE]

The fact that you feel inferior because I gave you hard cold facts speaks volumes. The difference is that the child held back at an earlier age is more often held back due to developmental issues. Early identification usually leads to the child receiving the help they need. Parents need to stop trying to relive their lives through their children. Sorry that hurts your feelings!

No one said they felt inferior. Try reading that again.
I didn't see any cold, hard facts, or even hard, cold facts.
There are countless examples here of students thriving who were held back a year.
The cold, hard fact is that the age rule states students are eligible if they turn 19 after Aug. 1, and until that changes it doesn't matter how many times anyone stays back as long as they meet that guideline.

[footballfever]

INSIDEINFO
I agree with holding them back. I think the extra year at home and to mature is a good thing.
I was just trying to say if you are holding them back "just for athletics" and to get that football scholarship it probably doesnt increase your chances.