[LWC]

I have always wanted to know this answer, and I have never received an answer that I could make sense of.

From what I understand, Atheists do not believe in God or Jesus or afterlife, etc... and Agnostics just simply do not care OR they acknowledge that afterlife could exists but they don't know, etc...

With those definitions in my mind (If I am wrong, please let me know):
Why do a large percentage or Atheists and Agnostics have such a problem with Christianity?

If Atheists do not believe God exists, then what harm can Christians do? Why does it bother many of them so badly that we want to pray, that we want to share the Gospel, that we want to live by our ethical code?

I can understand not wanting Christians to force beliefs on them, but many of them will go out of their way to persecute Christians, make fun of Christians, take legal actions to try to stop Christians, etc...

I had an acquaintance that was Agnostic (in the sense of I honestly do not care about religion and I do not know if God exists but I wont say that He doesn't) and he could not stand Christians. I asked him one time "What about Muslims? What about Buddhists? What about Wiccans?" He said, "They do not bother people as much as Christians do."

Is that what it boils down to? Do Agnostics and Atheists have as big of a problem with religions like Islam, Buddhism, or Wicca?

The Bill Maher stuff got me thinking about this.

I guess the question I have for anyone that can answer it is, if someone does not believe that God exists or doesn't care if He does or not, why does the thought of someone believing it bother many of them so much? Also, why work so hard to kill a message that "isn't true?" Why so many lawsuits trying to take God out of schools, out of courthouses, out of media, out of laws, etc...

For the record, I come at this question with love. I come at this question also with a genuine curiosity. Many pastors and devout Christian lay-people that I know will not even attempt to understand Atheist/Agnostic ideas. I try. I never push anyone away, I want to love all.

I give you this platform to explain this. Even if you are Christian, but you know how to answer this, go ahead. I promise it will not be indictment or "wrong" of you to answer.

[LWC]

If you do not feel comfortable answering in public forum, feel free to PM me.

[TheRealVille]

I would imagine because Christians try to force their views on everybody else, as in the sense of trying to legislate morality. Just like we were talking about in the "wet vote" thread the other day, you saying you were against that county going wet, and "you find nothing good in alcohol". If Christians would stay out of the business of trying to instill their views on government, I'd bet that most non believers, whether atheist or just plain non Christians would leave them alone. Another pet peeve of mine is the prayer in school thing. I don't want any kind of religion stuff added to the school system, mainly because I believe if you allow Christianity stuff allowed at schools, it won't be long until you have all other kinds of religions doing the same thing at schools. Religion is to be taught at home and church, not schools. On a side note, I find it odd that Christians are against gays getting married, saying that it is a biblical institution brought about God, yet they never say a word about an atheist man and woman getting married. This post is just my guess, and may be wrong. It's just a couple of things I find wrong with Christians.

[WideRight05]

WARNING! The next post you are going to read from me is probably going to be very, very long and very, very unorganized. I have strong Christian beliefs - but I also think I understand where some of the athiests/agnostics are coming from given my experiences...

[#1 Blackcat Fan]

^^ Cant wait to hear this one WideRight.

[WideRight05]

Ok, here goes. I grew up in a Christian church. I was raised on the Bible. I had this natural assumption that everyone out there just about believes in God. I never really thought about it that much. I just assumed it was true. For years I went to a small church in my hometown. It's a weird story. I'll tell this because I'm sure there is some athiest or agnostic that grew up with a similar experience. I grew up with the impression that Christians were on a "holy" level. I got involved in my Church when I was real young, and was expected to be a great leader in that Church one day. This Church had an invisible dress code. Suit and tie every Sunday, I always wore. As with every congregation, this one went through a major change in the late 1990's when I was going into my early teens. Some of the great, wise, older members had passed away, and several new people came in, that I hate to say caused a lot of problems. I didn't get along with a lot of these new people, and they were also causing some of our good members to leave. This is the judgmental, I can't do anything wrong, that type. These people, blended with what used to be a minority of the members were now a majority that caused trouble. Then, we got a new youth minister that was nuts. He always yelled at the kids, things like that. I come from a church where Baptism is important to go to heaven. Not to turn this into a debate, but I ended up still hold that belief to this day (but Baptists, Methodists, most denominations, will be in Heaven! I go to those churches sometimes when they have events locally). I remember talking on the phone with this youth minister at night (it was really late...or at least for a 13 year old, 9:45 or something lol). He ended up throwing a bunch of scriptures at me and scaring me into being baptized. Yeah, I should've known better, but at the time I was 13 lol. I talked to my parents and they were shocked and didn't really know how to handle the situation, and understandably so because they sure didn't expect that to come. So, we went to the church late that night and I was baptized. Needless to say, I did go forward as well that next Sunday. Only for him to put me down in front of the congregation and say that I was "doing stuff I shouldn't have." ***for what it's worth, I never drank, never smoked, always made A's and B's in school...never was in trouble. And I don't look down on anyone who does do that.*** He scared a couple of more kids into baptism, really what he was doing was trying to get his numbers up so he could keep his job there. I found out a few years later there was another kid that wanted to get baptized one night after hearing what happened with me, but the youth minister told him to "wait until Sunday." Ironic isn't it. It wasn't until a couple of years after he had got on that the church ended up letting him go. He ended up getting a job at another church for a short time until they fired him, and in fact now is a minister, scary to think. He came under several attacks from PETA on a national level recently for one of his antics.

That aside, I ended up getting fed up with church by the time I was 15 years old. I didn't like the way Christians acted, the impression I was getting was you literally had to be perfect in just about every way to be a Christian. I knew I couldn't do it, so I avoided church whenever possible. I hated it. I always had that belief that God existed, that God was there - but I didn't think I had what it took to follow him, and didn't want to at the time given how some of the people in the church acted. My focus was strictly on football, and doing everything I can to be as healthy as possible and achieve in that area. While I was gone, to throw it all out, several people in the church started rumors about me (as well as a couple of the other kids that had left) despite the fact we were doing very well in school.

By the time I was 19 years old, I had already graduated and was extremely driven toward finding a direction in life and being a dominant force in whatever field I was going to choose. However, I was also starting to see some of the other beliefs in college. I stuck around at a local community college for two years I will add. A lot of my friends from high school went to the universities, so I didn't have as many friends at the time. I ended up studying some, and actually ended up coming back to that church and rededicating my life. I felt lost at the time still primarily because I didn't really have a purpose, and had no direction and felt depressed a lot. I felt like that was the only church for me, and despite the fact I still did not like a lot of people there, the pastor and I were really close - and still are to this day even though I don't go there now.

You probably wonder why I'm practically spilling out my life story here with the Church...the reason is that an athiest/agnostic probably had some kind of an experience like this, and probably 7 out of 10 people that went through what I did in that short period of time would not be Christians right now and would be slinging everything they can to try to bring the church down.

You probably also wonder why I cut it off short - I've typed and thought a lot here. I need a break here. It gets better, and I'm not trying to put some sob story on here. The reason I'm putting this, again, is to show that this probably is the type of experience that most people that lead them to believing what they do. I'll type later on what made me stay with church that I hope someone will read. No work until Tuesday, so the time I don't spend with my friends this weekend will be taking it easy on here with Stardust and Spud and all my buddies posting lol.

[Wildcatk23]

I would imagine because Christians try to force their views on everybody else, as in the sense of trying to legislate morality. Just like we were talking about in the "wet vote" thread the other day, you saying you were against that county going wet, and "you find nothing good in alcohol". If Christians would stay out of the business of trying to instill their views on government, I'd bet that most non believers, whether atheist or just plain non Christians would leave them alone. Another pet peeve of mine is the prayer in school thing. I don't want any kind of religion stuff added to the school system, mainly because I believe if you allow Christianity stuff allowed at schools, it won't be long until you have all other kinds of religions doing the same thing at schools. Religion is to be taught at home and church, not schools. On a side note, I find it odd that Christians are against gays getting married, saying that it is a biblical institution brought about God, yet they never say a word about an atheist man and woman getting married. This post is just my guess, and may be wrong. It's just a couple of things I find wrong with Christians.

Forcing Views?


An atheist group from somewhere out west threatened to file a lawsuit against MArtin County Board of Education if they allowed the football team to pray for a fallen friend. Now please tell me why that has anything to do with christians forcing anything on other people? Kids want to pray for a friend of theirs but are told by some jack ass they cant because he dont think its right for them to pray at a football game.

[Bob Seger]

I would imagine because Christians try to force their views on everybody else, as in the sense of trying to legislate morality. Just like we were talking about in the "wet vote" thread the other day, you saying you were against that county going wet, and "you find nothing good in alcohol". If Christians would stay out of the business of trying to instill their views on government, I'd bet that most non believers, whether atheist or just plain non Christians would leave them alone. Another pet peeve of mine is the prayer in school thing. I don't want any kind of religion stuff added to the school system, mainly because I believe if you allow Christianity stuff allowed at schools, it won't be long until you have all other kinds of religions doing the same thing at schools. Religion is to be taught at home and church, not schools. On a side note, I find it odd that Christians are against gays getting married, saying that it is a biblical institution brought about God, yet they never say a word about an atheist man and woman getting married. This post is just my guess, and may be wrong. It's just a couple of things I find wrong with Christians.

Yet you dont find it offensive for those of the Muslim faith to try to force their Shakira laws, or for those same groups to outright kill those that simply profess to be of the Christian faith? While those of the Christian faith may condem the acts of gay marraiges etc. etc. you are certainly not put to death for those practices like in some areas of the world that practice the Muslim faith. In Iran, you are put to death for having an extramarital affair, all in the name of religion. Whose staying out of the "business" of the other guy here and "forcing" anything on anyone else in your opinion here? Yeah, those Christians seem to be a really rotten to the core bunch. lol.... You condem the one for their verbal objections to those who may not follow their beliefs and dont mention the outright extremes of the physical abuses of the other for not following their faith? Not at a full understanding here, RV.

[vundy33]

I have always wanted to know this answer, and I have never received an answer that I could make sense of.

From what I understand, Atheists do not believe in God or Jesus or afterlife, etc... and Agnostics just simply do not care OR they acknowledge that afterlife could exists but they don't know, etc...

With those definitions in my mind (If I am wrong, please let me know):
Why do a large percentage or Atheists and Agnostics have such a problem with Christianity?

That's an easy answer. Because the majority of you, and yes, I said majority, judge everyone and everything, they act in the opposite ways they say they do and the Bible tells you to. If it's any bit different, they shun it. Alot of them talk about Muslims like they're animals and how they're so wrong for fighting in the name of their religion...these Christians only focus on that, they don't mention the majority of the enemy that isn't fighting for religion. They talk about how horrible it is that they fight for it, when in the same breath they talk about how they're coming to America and taking over, and we're a Christian nation, all that bullcrap. They criticize others for fighting for their religion when they do the same exact thing. American Christians try to force their beliefs on people more than ANY other religious group I've ever seen in my life, and this includes Muslims. If you think or believe any different than them, they'll act like it's no big deal. But they use the most condescending tone, and talk to you like you're damned to hell and are less than them because you believe different.

American Christians are the most cowardly religious group I've ever seen as well. Not neccassarily around home, but as a whole, this is my opinion. You won't see one of these Christians stand up for what they believe in unless they have others to do it with them. American Christians will thank those of us in the military for our service when we get home, and while we're there they'll put us on prayer lists and send us care packages. But at the same time, if you ask them why they haven't served or disagree with the job we're doing, they don't believe in "killing" or war...these same "anti-war" Christians who were beating those war drums just a few years ago because it was the "right" thing to do. They think they have the knowledge to be some type of moral boss, and as a group, they completely alienate American Muslims and call them the enemy in the name of the Constitution, they say. The same damn document that says all men are created equal. They think they can tell us that what we're doing in Afghan or have done in Iraq is right or wrong, and they think that they can say those things because of what they believe in..when in reality they don't know shit.

I've watched a community and church of Christians completely make a family's life hell...a father, mother and two children. Ya know why? Because they were Asian..Chinese. From the moment they came into the community they started gossiping, which is the same gossip they "preach" against and call wrong, and started making assumptions without even speaking and meeting the new family. They didn't open a new family to the community like they swear they do, they shunned them because they assumed they were Buddhists. In reality, they were bigger Christians than they were, and they actually lived the Christian life instead of acting like they lived the Christian life.

I've also watched a young single mother shunned out of the church because of her clothes. She wasn't poor really, but definitely wasn't rich, and she would wear a clean pair of jeans and a nice shirt and jacket to church. They gossiped and talked about her for two months before a few women mentioned to her about wearing a dress to church, even though what she wore was perfectly suitable. When she said she didn't have any dresses, she was welcomed the next Sunday with a few old dresses one of the old ladies brought her and insisted she wear to church from now on, because it was "proper clothes for church". How in the hell can a group of 20 or so adults care enough about the damn clothes, clean clothes at that, a young mother wears to church to actually mention it to her, and then bring old dresses and insist she wear them call themselves Christians?! Her boobs weren't hanging out, and she didn't have half her ass crack hanging out of her jeans...she was dressed fine and perfectly appropriate for church, yet this group of assholes take it upon themselves to decide proper dress for church? Pathetic.

Also, one time we had some middle-aged man move to the community and start attending church...he was single and just lived by himself, he was around around 50 or 51. He was quickly pin-pointed as a pervert, because he would hug the young girls at church and say perverted things and hug them way to long, and touch them in very, very inappropriate ways. But, strangely, not one person, not even a male, said one thing to the guy. I finally went to church with my mom and sat behind the guy. When we were eating dinner downstairs, I personally watched him seek out and hug a few young girls, and be completely sick and perverted with them. You know what the parents and grandparents of the girls did? Not a damn thing besides keep their child with them and not let them hug them anymore. They were too cowardly to confront him about it. When I asked why they hadn't, most of their excuses were "Well I didn't want to cause a scene"...that's horseshit. I confronted the guy without a seen, why couldn't they? These "Christians" were such cowards that they would rather let a man continue to hug little girls like that and say those things than to say something to him, politely or non-politely, about it and possibly save a little girl when he decided to rape one of them. The most they did was deny him from being a Sunday-school teacher, which he really, really insisted on doing, by saying there weren't any more spots open instead of saying "You can't teach Sunday school because of the rude and inappropriate ways you interact with the children here", which is perfectly polite and a good Christian way of confronting someone.

When I witnessed what he was doing, and what these little girls' parents weren't doing, I lost it, and politely, without causing a scene, asked the man to step outside so I could talk to him. I even got him to walk across the road so I wouldn't be beating him down in the church parking lot and on the grounds, because that's insensitive and you're not supposed to do those things at church. I talked to him about what he was doing, and when he refused to admit it, I beat him until he did...across from the church, off of the church grounds, and without causing a scene in church. And I did it in the nicest way possible. Guess who wasn't aloud, literally "banned", from coming back to church? Me. Not the pervert that was groping and freakin' dirty talking 10 year old girls, it was me, the only person willing to stand up for them. This was after I told the preacher why I did it, and confronted them on why they hadn't said anything to the guy when I've personally watched him do those things to THEIR own children. I was the one told I wasn't welcome back at church, not him. To this day, almost a year later, I'm still not welcome, and they treat my mother differently because of it when she is a devout Christian and is in church every Wednesday and Sunday. The worst part is, the guy is still aloud to attend church, and his is STILL doing the same things he was doing before, and these people STILL won't say anything to him about it. That's what kills me. I could not care less that I'm not welcome their, they are the fake Christians, not me, and I did the right thing. Screw them.

This type of stuff is why I can't stand most Christians. Also, I'm not talking about all Christians. From my experiences though, and alot of others', it's sadly the majority. It may seem like I'm referring to all of them above, but like I'm saying right now, I'm not. I'm talking about the ones guilty of this type of behavior, any of it, and if you're not guilty of it and not one of the two-faced so called "Christians", then I'm obviously not talking about you. I'm not one to criticize any religion because I'll probably be going straight to hell, but I can criticize people who claim to live a Christian life, and then they turn around and do they kind of things they do. Gossip, get jealous of other Christians, judge people on their clothes or what type of care they drive like church is damn highschool. It's pathetic, and it's embarrassing to ever think I was part of that group of people at one time.

That's what I think. Again, I am NOT talking about all Christians, obviously. So if anyone wants to get smart and say "we're not all like that", read a bit and see that I'm not talking about all of you. Also, please, please don't tell me I'm going to hell if I don't do this or that, and don't tell me you'll pray for me because I'm going to hell or whatever because in you opinion I haven't "found" God...I don't want your prayers unless it's for me and my boys not to get shot on this deployment. I'm already in hell so save your breath. Gracias.

There ya go LWC. That's my opinion on the matter.

[Bob Seger]

Yet you dont find it offensive for those of the Muslim faith to try to force their Shakira laws, or for those same groups to outright kill those that simply profess to be of the Christian faith? While those of the Christian faith may condem the acts of gay marraiges etc. etc. you are certainly not put to death for those practices like in some areas of the world that practice the Muslim faith. In Iran, you are put to death for having an extramarital affair, all in the name of religion. Whose staying out of the "business" of the other guy here and "forcing" anything on anyone else in your opinion here? Yeah, those Christians seem to be a really rotten to the core bunch. lol.... You condem the one for their verbal objections to those who may not follow their beliefs and dont mention the outright extremes of the physical abuses of the other for not following their faith? Not at a full understanding here, RV.

Here's an example just in the news today.


http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/201...christians

[vundy33]

Yet you dont find it offensive for those of the Muslim faith to try to force their Shakira laws, or for those same groups to outright kill those that profess to be of the Christian faith?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Point straight to Muslims...

You don't see anyone on this board that has to put up with any Muslims trying to force Sharia on them or anywhere else in America do you? They don't have to deal with it everyday, or ever. It doesn't make sense to try and prove you're point by pointing to another religion and calling them bad.

This is what you people don't understand. The Christians I'm talking about outnumber these Muslims by ALOT. Plus, Americans don't have to deal with these types of Muslims forcing anything on them. They sadly couldn't care less what's going on in Iran. That doesn't mean it's not wrong, it just means they don't care because it doesn't effect them...it doesn't apply to this conversation.

Alot of Christians do what you're doing, thinking you can make the moral choice for these people by saying they don't want Sharia law. Most countries that are governed by Sharia actually want it, and take the punishment they get as a result of breaking Sharia law. Only a few countries actually have a majority that don't want it, and I can only think of two right now, Iran and Bahrain. And I'm not even sure that there is a majority in Iran that doesn't want it. You think you can judge what's right and wrong when you haven't even seen how they govern or been there. They choose to combine church and state, they choose to be governed under Sharia, and they deal with the punishment they get. In reality, not many people in countries that are governed under Sharia get the death penalty and get publicly hanged, beheaded, stoned, ect. They just don't. But, whenever Christians are questioned, they point to those darned Muslim terrorists and how bad they are. It's two completely different worlds, and you can't call rights and wrongs unless you've seen it firsthand, no matter how much studying of the subject is done. No one can.

I'm not even going to go into what terrorists groups do to non-Muslims, because their actions are denounced by everyone and are wrong to everyone, not just one group of people that look at Sharia and think it's so horrible. In 2009 we came up on a group of I think 6 men, ages 16-40 something, and there heads had been cut off. They were laid on their backs in a circle, with all of their feet touching, and their heads were put up against their necks so it didn't look like they were cut off from a distance. They were all Afghan Christians, and were murdered because they had built a Christian church in a town right outside of Jalalabad. The Taliban killed them, of course. These actions were denounced by all. That isn't Sharia like they want to claim. It's just not.

Muslims, the good ones, are the nicest people I've ever met in my life besides Mormons. I have never, ever had one Muslims try and talk me into Islam, or tell me he'll pray for me because I'm going to hell because I'm not a Muslim, or try and make me an outcast because I'm new to their customs and ways or don't wear what they where.

I am the last person that would be taking up for them. They are nice people for the most part, but the few bad ones have ruined it for me. I don't want to be around them, ever, and I have a hard time trusting them here. I recently changed doctors because one was Pakistani. It's not because I'm racist or hate their religion or any of that, it's because of muscle-memory and being so used to looking over my shoulder at them. Christians have ruined their religion for me even more because of the experiences I've had at many churches, the same experiences I mentioned in my last post.

From my experience, the average Christian can't hold a light to the average Muslim when it comes to being true to their religion and non-hypocritical. And that's not because of how many times Muslims pray a day or whatever else, it's because of their actions. How nice they are, how they don't judge by looks or money or clothes...I really, really would rather it be the other way around, but it's just not. I've experienced both worlds, lived my entire life pretty much in the Bible Belt and have spent 22 months combined in Afghanistan, where just a few years ago the Taliban government held public executions without trial, against Sharia laws and against the way that Sharia says someone should be put to death if they are found guilty of that specific law.

I have no "agenda" against Christians or any other crap like that...if anything, I'd have an agenda against Muslims, because I've never been shot at by Christians before. But these are my experiences and this stuff is what I've found. I thought that I could get away from these types of Christians if I changed churches, but they are ALWAYS there, always..and they manage to ruin it for me with their spiteful and jealous attitudes. It kills me, but it's the truth, and it's pathetic.

[Bob Seger]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Point straight to Muslims...

You don't see anyone on this board that has to put up with any Muslims trying to force Sharia on them or anywhere else in America do you? They don't have to deal with it everyday, or ever. It doesn't make sense to try and prove you're point by pointing to another religion and calling them bad.

This is what you people don't understand. The Christians I'm talking about outnumber these Muslims by ALOT. Plus, Americans don't have to deal with these types of Muslims forcing anything on them. They sadly couldn't care less what's going on in Iran. That doesn't mean it's not wrong, it just means they don't care because it doesn't effect them...it doesn't apply to this conversation.

Alot of Christians do what you're doing, thinking you can make the moral choice for these people by saying they don't want Sharia law. Most countries that are governed by Sharia actually want it, and take the punishment they get as a result of breaking Sharia law. Only a few countries actually have a majority that don't want it, and I can only think of two right now, Iran and Bahrain. And I'm not even sure that there is a majority in Iran that doesn't want it. You think you can judge what's right and wrong when you haven't even seen how they govern or been there. They choose to combine church and state, they choose to be governed under Sharia, and they deal with the punishment they get. In reality, not many people in countries that are governed under Sharia get the death penalty and get publicly hanged, beheaded, stoned, ect. They just don't. But, whenever Christians are questioned, they point to those darned Muslim terrorists and how bad they are. It's two completely different worlds, and you can't call rights and wrongs unless you've seen it firsthand, no matter how much studying of the subject is done. No one can.

I'm not even going to go into what terrorists groups do to non-Muslims, because their actions are denounced by everyone and are wrong to everyone, not just one group of people that look at Sharia and think it's so horrible. In 2009 we came up on a group of I think 6 men, ages 16-40 something, and there heads had been cut off. They were laid on their backs in a circle, with all of their feet touching, and their heads were put up against their necks so it didn't look like they were cut off from a distance. They were all Afghan Christians, and were murdered because they had built a Christian church in a town right outside of Jalalabad. The Taliban killed them, of course. These actions were denounced by all. That isn't Sharia like they want to claim. It's just not.

Muslims, the good ones, are the nicest people I've ever met in my life besides Mormons. I have never, ever had one Muslims try and talk me into Islam, or tell me he'll pray for me because I'm going to hell because I'm not a Muslim, or try and make me an outcast because I'm new to their customs and ways or don't wear what they where.

I am the last person that would be taking up for them. They are nice people for the most part, but the few bad ones have ruined it for me. I don't want to be around them, ever, and I have a hard time trusting them here. I recently changed doctors because one was Pakistani. It's not because I'm racist or hate their religion or any of that, it's because of muscle-memory and being so used to looking over my shoulder at them. Christians have ruined their religion for me even more because of the experiences I've had at many churches, the same experiences I mentioned in my last post.

From my experience, the average Christian can't hold a light to the average Muslim when it comes to being true to their religion and non-hypocritical. And that's not because of how many times Muslims pray a day or whatever else, it's because of their actions. How nice they are, how they don't judge by looks or money or clothes...I really, really would rather it be the other way around, but it's just not. I've experienced both worlds, lived my entire life pretty much in the Bible Belt and have spent 22 months combined in Afghanistan, where just a few years ago the Taliban government held public executions without trial, against Sharia laws and against the way that Sharia says someone should be put to death if they are found guilty of that specific law.

I have no "agenda" against Christians or any other crap like that...if anything, I'd have an agenda against Muslims, because I've never been shot at by Christians before. But these are my experiences and this stuff is what I've found. I thought that I could get away from these types of Christians if I changed churches, but they are ALWAYS there, always..and they manage to ruin it for me with their spiteful and jealous attitudes. It kills me, but it's the truth, and it's pathetic.

It was a point I was trying to make to RV about hypocrisy.

Isn't it oh so easy to blame someone else's imperfections for our own failures to be obedient? I know all too well about how that works in a man's mind as I've been there and done that myself. So many times I thought to myself that if that guy is going to heaven, then so will I. Even though I was a wretched wicked person. The Word teaches that a Christian experience is a "personal experience". It has absolutely nothing to do with how another that professes may live their life and of what activities that they may partake in. It is each individuals obligation to live their life and follow God's instuctions to the best of their abilities. We are instucted to love another despite their imperfections as we all hold those same imperfections. We just sometimes dont want to admit it. That is the hard part my friend. As far as those ALWAYS going to be there, yes you are right. No matter where you go they will always be there. We are to continually forgive just as we will in turn will receive that same continual forgiveness. That's simply how it works.

[WideRight05]

Ok, now to continue. I got back involved in that same church around the age of 19. Something just led me to go there...I ended up getting heavily involved. At the time, like I said, I had lost a lot of my high school friends and was making new friends, and trying to find my direction. I ended up doing a lot for the church, but when I got heavily involved I started questioning things. The pastor had been at that church 20+ years - and still is there today and does an excellent job. But to see some of these holier than thou people in the leadership made me sick. They always gossiped about the pastor, about people that had left the church - I had enough and left, to the current church I am at today. It's a much larger church, but there is no "dress code" and the "holier than thous" are a very, very minority that are almost unnoticed - in fact, the one or two I do know there that are like that are nowhere close to the level the people were at while I was at the other church. I currently attend this church and am happy here. My family is really what kept me in my previous church - but sometimes you just have to move on.

Now, some in between things during college...

I decided to take a comparative religion class in the fall of 2007 at the community college I went to. I thought it would be a pretty cool thing to study. That's when I started getting heavy into studying the Bible. I remember friends, people I knew telling me they would try to turn me away from Christianity and all this stuff. I just rolled my eyes and laughed thinking, what do they know...well, my first day in that class I couldn't believe what I had seen. The professor took numerous "shots" at Christianity while he was teaching. Let me first say that he was a good guy, he didn't put anyone down, and I can assure you that any church would be blessed to have a guy as good as him in there provided he would start coming. Also, he did not grade unfairly - it was not hard and you practically had to try to get below a B in the class, no matter what faith you were. However, him and this other girl in the class (an agnostic) would constantly put down Christianity. If anybody spoke up in class to debate, he often would tell them to "keep an open mind."

I later found out that this guy used to be a Baptist preacher. I was wondering what was up and thought I would find out for myself. I often went to his office and talked to him. I played stupid and asked him questions a lot about the material in class. He would not tell any of us what his religion was. On the last day, I approached him and asked him what his religion was. He said, "come to my office here in a bit after I get through grading papers." I came up, and he told me he was an athiest. He told me his whole story - how he grew up, how he got involved in the church, and what led him to where he is. He pastored a church for several years, and unfortunately it was a church that had a congregation that acted similar to the one I previously went to. After several years, they ran him off. He remained in the faith for a few more years, and finally decided to go against it. He admitted to me that he used this class so he could steer people away from Christianity while they were young. It truly was sad to see, because 3 - 4 people in the class ended up second guessing and leaving their church. Me? It really made me believe that much more. We had a conversation that day that probably lasted 3 - 4 hours. It didn't have a great impact on him, but it felt good to leave there with him knowing that he dealt with somebody that actually cared about him and wasn't there to try to tell him he was wrong or that he was a bad person.

I really don't know where to start when it comes to playing the "blame" game. Based on my experience and the experience with the professor, it's easy to understand why someone would want to leave the church. At the same time, I get sick of seeing a lot of these "athiests" that are offended over the least little thing and want it taken down because of its religious nature. Personally, like with the whole gay/lesbian thing as well, I think it's just a rebellion and people just want to argue and fight. IMO someone that's truly athiest/agnostic, or better yet, somebody that has a life would have better stuff to do than go around being a busy body and trying to get stuff taken down. Those people have nothing better to do, sadly.

I think most athiests/agnostics think the way they do because mainly they have had a bad experience with the church, or are looking to rebel. I don't have a complete answer on this - and I think it's tough to come up with a full, concrete answer. I can tell you why I believe in Christianity, other than the historical facts. I'm not perfect. I don't plan on ever being perfect, and I don't plan on trying to be. I fail so much every day. I have so many faults. I think of Romans 7:15 where Paul pretty much talks about how he wants to do good things, but ends up doing bad things. It's the free gift of eternal life that God offers that gets me through. If I were to be truly judged, there's no question that I do not deserve to go to Heaven. That's one reason it makes me sick when I encounter people like the ones at my previous church, is because the reason we are there is NOT because we are perfect, or to look good in a suit, or to gossip about our relatives who aren't Christians. It's because we struggle every day, and we need Jesus. And that's the bottom line.

I am too lazy to look back and edit this, so please excuse any lack of organization or grammatical errors.

[vundy33]

It was a point I was trying to make to RV about hypocrisy.

Isn't it oh so easy to blame someone else's imperfections for our own failures to be obedient? I know all too well about how that works in a man's mind as I've been there and done that myself. So many times I thought to myself that if that guy is going to heaven, then so will I. Even though I was a wretched wicked person. The Word teaches that a Christian experience is a "personal experience". It has absolutely nothing to do with how another that professes may live their life and of what activities that they may partake in. It is each individuals obligation to live their life and follow God's instuctions to the best of their abilities. We are instucted to love another despite their imperfections as we all hold those same imperfections. We just sometimes dont want to admit it. That is the hard part my friend. As far as those ALWAYS going to be there, yes you are right. No matter where you go they will always be there. We are to continually forgive just as we will in turn will receive that same continual forgiveness. That's simply how it works.

Exactly! Why can't everyone just follow that?? Something I've really noticed since I've joined the military and traveled is that the way people worship, and pretty much do everything, is really, really dependent on where they grew up. Muslims from the Middle-East and Asia..Yemen, Kuwait, Kazakhstan and Afghan are so nice, for the most part, and welcome you into their homes in an instant, no matter your color or religion. I've noticed Christians in that part of the world are pretty much the same way...different religion, but same core values...they love their neighbors, and guests, whether it be an Afghan that lives down the road or a U.S. soldier that grew up 8,000 miles away, they welcome and feed as best they can. Of course, that's alot different with the bad guys that force us to be there, but I guess that's why we shoot at them instead of be nice to them, lol.

American Muslims, for the most part, I've noticed are much more to themselves, much less welcoming. It might be that they're suspect of being treated differently because of being Muslim, or any other difference, but that's how I've noticed the majority here.

I just hate close-minded people, those that judge without making the effort to get to know what they're making judgement on. They're everywhere, in every religion, but I guess it just gets to me more because it's the church I grew up in that I'm experiencing more of it.

[WideRight05]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Point straight to Muslims...

You don't see anyone on this board that has to put up with any Muslims trying to force Sharia on them or anywhere else in America do you? They don't have to deal with it everyday, or ever. It doesn't make sense to try and prove you're point by pointing to another religion and calling them bad.

This is what you people don't understand. The Christians I'm talking about outnumber these Muslims by ALOT. Plus, Americans don't have to deal with these types of Muslims forcing anything on them. They sadly couldn't care less what's going on in Iran. That doesn't mean it's not wrong, it just means they don't care because it doesn't effect them...it doesn't apply to this conversation.

Alot of Christians do what you're doing, thinking you can make the moral choice for these people by saying they don't want Sharia law. Most countries that are governed by Sharia actually want it, and take the punishment they get as a result of breaking Sharia law. Only a few countries actually have a majority that don't want it, and I can only think of two right now, Iran and Bahrain. And I'm not even sure that there is a majority in Iran that doesn't want it. You think you can judge what's right and wrong when you haven't even seen how they govern or been there. They choose to combine church and state, they choose to be governed under Sharia, and they deal with the punishment they get. In reality, not many people in countries that are governed under Sharia get the death penalty and get publicly hanged, beheaded, stoned, ect. They just don't. But, whenever Christians are questioned, they point to those darned Muslim terrorists and how bad they are. It's two completely different worlds, and you can't call rights and wrongs unless you've seen it firsthand, no matter how much studying of the subject is done. No one can.

I'm not even going to go into what terrorists groups do to non-Muslims, because their actions are denounced by everyone and are wrong to everyone, not just one group of people that look at Sharia and think it's so horrible. In 2009 we came up on a group of I think 6 men, ages 16-40 something, and there heads had been cut off. They were laid on their backs in a circle, with all of their feet touching, and their heads were put up against their necks so it didn't look like they were cut off from a distance. They were all Afghan Christians, and were murdered because they had built a Christian church in a town right outside of Jalalabad. The Taliban killed them, of course. These actions were denounced by all. That isn't Sharia like they want to claim. It's just not.

Muslims, the good ones, are the nicest people I've ever met in my life besides Mormons. I have never, ever had one Muslims try and talk me into Islam, or tell me he'll pray for me because I'm going to hell because I'm not a Muslim, or try and make me an outcast because I'm new to their customs and ways or don't wear what they where.

I am the last person that would be taking up for them. They are nice people for the most part, but the few bad ones have ruined it for me. I don't want to be around them, ever, and I have a hard time trusting them here. I recently changed doctors because one was Pakistani. It's not because I'm racist or hate their religion or any of that, it's because of muscle-memory and being so used to looking over my shoulder at them. Christians have ruined their religion for me even more because of the experiences I've had at many churches, the same experiences I mentioned in my last post.

From my experience, the average Christian can't hold a light to the average Muslim when it comes to being true to their religion and non-hypocritical. And that's not because of how many times Muslims pray a day or whatever else, it's because of their actions. How nice they are, how they don't judge by looks or money or clothes...I really, really would rather it be the other way around, but it's just not. I've experienced both worlds, lived my entire life pretty much in the Bible Belt and have spent 22 months combined in Afghanistan, where just a few years ago the Taliban government held public executions without trial, against Sharia laws and against the way that Sharia says someone should be put to death if they are found guilty of that specific law.

I have no "agenda" against Christians or any other crap like that...if anything, I'd have an agenda against Muslims, because I've never been shot at by Christians before. But these are my experiences and this stuff is what I've found. I thought that I could get away from these types of Christians if I changed churches, but they are ALWAYS there, always..and they manage to ruin it for me with their spiteful and jealous attitudes. It kills me, but it's the truth, and it's pathetic.

I'll add on to your post Vundy...

First off, I hate it you had the experience you did at those churches. It is unfortunate that you will find idiots like that in every church, no matter where it is. In a good church, people like that will be in the minority, with the majority being the kind, caring bunch. Don't give up on it, no matter how tough it may seem.

Second, I have studied quite a bit on Islam in the past. Only about 10% of Muslims worldwide are the radical Muslims you have talked about in your post. The problem is, 10% of around 1.5 billion (give or take a few) people is a lot. Most of them are in the Middle East though. A lot of the ones I have met at school the past three years have been very nice people. I see people pointing fingers and condemning these people at first sight. When you reach out to people of different faiths, there are "barriers" that stand up when people feel defensive. For instance, if I choose to rub fire and brimstone in their face and tell them how wrong they are, their defensive barriers will come up, and then I will have lost ALL hope of being able to reach out to them. All that will draw is a defense as to why they are right. Myself, what I do is just try to be as nice as I can to these people. I try to help them out, be a "good neighbor," and invite them to church events, things like that. Rubbing things like hell in their faces will do no good.

[vundy33]

I wouldn't even consider 10% radical. Maybe 10% in their beliefs, but definitely not their actions. The radical ones are just as cowardly as the bad Christians I was talking about. I wouldn't mind shooting the ones that run Sharia government and sentence people to death by sword just like the Talib, because I hate that stuff and think they should at least be hanged, that's as public and graphic I think executions should go. But, I wouldn't really call governments and villages that use Sharia as radical. It's a common religious practice, and they usually are good about following the actual law strictly.

I agree with you...finger-pointing and damnation and hell, scare-tactics pretty much, really turn me off of religion.

[WideRight05]

Exactly! Why can't everyone just follow that?? Something I've really noticed since I've joined the military and traveled is that the way people worship, and pretty much do everything, is really, really dependent on where they grew up. Muslims from the Middle-East and Asia..Yemen, Kuwait, Kazakhstan and Afghan are so nice, for the most part, and welcome you into their homes in an instant, no matter your color or religion. I've noticed Christians in that part of the world are pretty much the same way...different religion, but same core values...they love their neighbors, and guests, whether it be an Afghan that lives down the road or a U.S. soldier that grew up 8,000 miles away, they welcome and feed as best they can. Of course, that's alot different with the bad guys that force us to be there, but I guess that's why we shoot at them instead of be nice to them, lol.

American Muslims, for the most part, I've noticed are much more to themselves, much less welcoming. It might be that they're suspect of being treated differently because of being Muslim, or any other difference, but that's how I've noticed the majority here.

I just hate close-minded people, those that judge without making the effort to get to know what they're making judgement on. They're everywhere, in every religion, but I guess it just gets to me more because it's the church I grew up in that I'm experiencing more of it.

I can't base this all on two people - but, here are my different experiences in this area....

As I had mentioned in my previous post, I have done some deep studies on Islam. To answer that one, you have part of it right. It all depends on how strict of a Muslim they are. One of my international friends at school that was Muslim came from a family that was not very strict. Our organizations organized an event together on campus, so I got to work with her quite a bit. Her family even told her she could attend Churches in America if she wanted to. She was very outgoing, and not one bit hesitant to make friends at school.

I know of another Muslim at school that was extremely devout. She was nice enough and approachable, but was hesitant to socialize beyond a simple hello. Several reasons could be for that. I won't speculate, but one could be what you had mentioned. The other comes from a scripture in the qu'ran...

Surah 5:51 - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

A Muslim who is extremely devout would strongly follow a scripture like this. Everyone please take note that I am not saying this was why she seemed unaccepting of the people around her. But having studied this, I can assure you that a Muslim who chooses to be true and devout cannot like people from other religions. This is just one of the scriptures, but it's the main one I like to reference. And that also proves my point that people have to be careful in how they reach out to these people - because a simple "you're going to hell" or "you all are terrible people" could be the poison that chases them away from the church for good.

[WideRight05]

I wouldn't even consider 10% radical. Maybe 10% in their beliefs, but definitely not their actions. The radical ones are just as cowardly as the bad Christians I was talking about. I wouldn't mind shooting the ones that run Sharia government and sentence people to death by sword just like the Talib, because I hate that stuff and think they should at least be hanged, that's as public and graphic I think executions should go. But, I wouldn't really call governments and villages that use Sharia as radical. It's a common religious practice, and they usually are good about following the actual law strictly.

I agree with you...finger-pointing and damnation and hell, scare-tactics pretty much, really turn me off of religion.

Dang, I'm going in circles here. This is making up for every short post I made in the post padding thread yesterday LOL.

The 10% is a statistic I looked up in a study. The main point is, a real, real small amount are radical, as you had mentioned. The problem is, that real small amount is a heck of a lot of people!

I hope you'll be able to work past what people have thrown at you at Church. If you want to talk to me about it, I'm only one message away, and I'm sure LWC, who seems very level as well, would say the same. You definitely seem like an excellent guy and no one can take that away from you.

[Bob Seger]

I wouldn't even consider 10% radical. Maybe 10% in their beliefs, but definitely not their actions. The radical ones are just as cowardly as the bad Christians I was talking about. I wouldn't mind shooting the ones that run Sharia government and sentence people to death by sword just like the Talib, because I hate that stuff and think they should at least be hanged, that's as public and graphic I think executions should go. But, I wouldn't really call governments and villages that use Sharia as radical. It's a common religious practice, and they usually are good about following the actual law strictly.

I agree with you...finger-pointing and damnation and hell, scare-tactics pretty much, really turn me off of religion.

That was my point in trying to show the hypocisy of blaming all Christians for the actions of a percentage. It's in all religions that you have those that may not be what they profess.

[Old School]

[quote=Bob Seger]That was my point in trying to show the hypocisy of blaming all Christians for the actions of a percentage. It's in all religions that you have those that may not be what they profess.[/QUOTE]

This is true, but it is only the extreme muslims that want to kill christians, and other non-muslims. Other religions are not trying to kill muslims just because they believe in the muslim faith.

[TheRealVille]

Yet you dont find it offensive for those of the Muslim faith to try to force their Shakira laws, or for those same groups to outright kill those that simply profess to be of the Christian faith? While those of the Christian faith may condem the acts of gay marraiges etc. etc. you are certainly not put to death for those practices like in some areas of the world that practice the Muslim faith. In Iran, you are put to death for having an extramarital affair, all in the name of religion. Whose staying out of the "business" of the other guy here and "forcing" anything on anyone else in your opinion here? Yeah, those Christians seem to be a really rotten to the core bunch. lol.... You condem the one for their verbal objections to those who may not follow their beliefs and dont mention the outright extremes of the physical abuses of the other for not following their faith? Not at a full understanding here, RV.

I haven't heard of them trying to force those laws into US government, but if they do, I'm against that also.


I don't live in Iran, I can't control what they do in that country.

[TheRealVille]

Here's an example just in the news today.


http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/201...christians

I don't live in Egypt. I thought we were talking about America.

[RunItUpTheGut]

Honestly, you all have very good points, and unlike a lot of strong believers i can see how and why some athiest believe in things like they do.
First off, Realville has his own free will and right to believe in what he wants, as does every other person living in this country.
The Hypocrisy that the Christian faith has in some of its churches is a HUGE dilemma of why many non believers say and act the way they do, or in some cases, just dont believe. You all know the story of so and so that preaches the Chrsitian gospel word for word on Sunday but can also be seen partying, drinking, lusting, and gloating on throughout the rest of the week. I could go on and on about different people like that, but you all know the story as we are all mature adults (hopefully).
We are all sinners, like it or not. Nobody is perfect and we all sin on a daily basis, without knowing it.

The Christian faith teaches us to message to non believers and spread the word of the gospel. That is great and we SHOULD do that. But we SHOULDNT force our religion on anyone like some try to do. Afterall, we all have free will, and from that we will find inner peace with God, or we will succomb to the true sins for which we pay in the end. These people that get caught up in Billy Graham and 700 club shows need to realize that anyone who needs to see the celebrity spolight of national television is more than likely not teaching Christian, especially our youth the right message.
The fact that the man we put all of our faith into died for what he believed in should show each and every single person that you must give up everything and SACRIFICE all things in order to reach the promise land.
I think that in order for anyone to "live right" we must find a place of worship free of all things that could make it burn to the ground, after all thats what the devil wants. I think its important to find a place where you can feel welcomed and feel like your being talked directly to instead of a church where hundredss of people attend and your just another person in the pues or at the altar. I find that there is usually one church in every town where it seems like the mayor goes, as well as all of the other big businessmen and city royalty that seem like they only show up for there place inside the city and also for there spot at the top. I think its important to sty way from those types of places as many people could really bring out the hyprocricy to its full effect. Im not saying any of those are like that, because as the bible states its not my place to judge and i pass judgement on noone because they will get judged one day sooner or later.

I know its hard for athiest to believe in the world we live in today. Theres so many question marks out there on this and that and how things really went down, and my only answer to that is, you either have faith or you dont. Its your choice and by that choice in my eyes, its between you and God whether you believe in him or not.

But, when you take a little you must give a little and a lot of Athiest go to far in there talks against Christianity and should show respect for the people who dont force them into there beliefs. Just like we dont have the right to push ourselfs on athiest, they have no right to degrade or belittle Christians. We, as a country shouldnt show favoritism toward any realigion, especially minority reliagions such as Mulisms. Nobody, regardless of race, religion, or wealth should recieve better treatment than anyone else. This happens way to often in our government as we seem to cater to the minority.

But im no preacher, nor a saint, or do i live right all of the time. For that i will have to answer. I truly hope all you find peace inside yourself before your time comes and i mean that. For any non believers i say, God bless, and may you find your true meaning as others can not make choices for you, but i will say find somewhere your comfortable and give the lord a try. But dont let ANYONE persuade you into doing anything that you do not truly want to do and dont fall victim to pressure.

[Bob Seger]

I don't live in Egypt. I thought we were talking about America.

I didn't know that religion, of whatever faith it may be, was confined within a border?


LWC asked the question, "Why do a large percentage of atheists and agnostics have such a problem with Christianity?"


Where was America even mentioned by him?

[vundy33]

Dang, I'm going in circles here. This is making up for every short post I made in the post padding thread yesterday LOL.

The 10% is a statistic I looked up in a study. The main point is, a real, real small amount are radical, as you had mentioned. The problem is, that real small amount is a heck of a lot of people!

I hope you'll be able to work past what people have thrown at you at Church. If you want to talk to me about it, I'm only one message away, and I'm sure LWC, who seems very level as well, would say the same. You definitely seem like an excellent guy and no one can take that away from you.

Gracias dude.

Also, I do believe in God, and I try my best to always do the right thing, no matter it's popularity. I go to church when I can with my mom, she always loves when I go with her. She attends and helps with two churches, and I go to the second one with her, not the one I mentioned before.

Like I said, I always try to do the right thing. I'm definitely not an atheist, not even close, but I have been questioning my faith recently. To much bad happening to some of the best guys and family's I know, and not enough good. I just don't understand it, and I'm so sick of hearing people tell me it's "God's plan". If it's God's plan, then why does He take the best people away from their families, and leave the worst here?! I just don't get it. Kills me.

But, that's life I guess. And it sucks for the most part...

[TheRealVille]

I didn't know that religion, of whatever faith it may be, was confined within a border?


LWC asked the question, "Why do a large percentage of atheists and agnostics have such a problem with Christianity?"


Where was America even mentioned by him?

I can't speak for things I can't control. All I can speak for is why Christianity is looked down on in America.

[LWC]

Thank y'all so much. I just logged on and saw 26 posts already. I will read through them a little later and respond. I just wanted to take the time to say thank you.

[LWC]

I will start with this first.

Also, one time we had some middle-aged man move to the community and start attending church...he was single and just lived by himself, he was around around 50 or 51. He was quickly pin-pointed as a pervert, because he would hug the young girls at church and say perverted things and hug them way to long, and touch them in very, very inappropriate ways. But, strangely, not one person, not even a male, said one thing to the guy. I finally went to church with my mom and sat behind the guy. When we were eating dinner downstairs, I personally watched him seek out and hug a few young girls, and be completely sick and perverted with them. You know what the parents and grandparents of the girls did? Not a **** thing besides keep their child with them and not let them hug them anymore. They were too cowardly to confront him about it. When I asked why they hadn't, most of their excuses were "Well I didn't want to cause a scene"...that's horseshit. I confronted the guy without a seen, why couldn't they? These "Christians" were such cowards that they would rather let a man continue to hug little girls like that and say those things than to say something to him, politely or non-politely, about it and possibly save a little girl when he decided to rape one of them. The most they did was deny him from being a Sunday-school teacher, which he really, really insisted on doing, by saying there weren't any more spots open instead of saying "You can't teach Sunday school because of the rude and inappropriate ways you interact with the children here", which is perfectly polite and a good Christian way of confronting someone.

When I witnessed what he was doing, and what these little girls' parents weren't doing, I lost it, and politely, without causing a scene, asked the man to step outside so I could talk to him. I even got him to walk across the road so I wouldn't be beating him down in the church parking lot and on the grounds, because that's insensitive and you're not supposed to do those things at church. I talked to him about what he was doing, and when he refused to admit it, I beat him until he did...across from the church, off of the church grounds, and without causing a scene in church. And I did it in the nicest way possible. Guess who wasn't aloud, literally "banned", from coming back to church? Me. Not the pervert that was groping and freakin' dirty talking 10 year old girls, it was me, the only person willing to stand up for them. This was after I told the preacher why I did it, and confronted them on why they hadn't said anything to the guy when I've personally watched him do those things to THEIR own children. I was the one told I wasn't welcome back at church, not him. To this day, almost a year later, I'm still not welcome, and they treat my mother differently because of it when she is a devout Christian and is in church every Wednesday and Sunday. The worst part is, the guy is still aloud to attend church, and his is STILL doing the same things he was doing before, and these people STILL won't say anything to him about it. That's what kills me. I could not care less that I'm not welcome their, they are the fake Christians, not me, and I did the right thing. Screw them.

Vundy, if I was told that, I would have investigated. If I SAW that, I would have pulled the person aside and had a talk. The reason that I may never be a pastor at a mega-church is for that very reason. I will not be entirely PR-correct and I put the safety of children ahead of "not-breaking-the-flow". Safety first.

I may not have given you a proverbial medal but I would have pulled you aside and scolded you for the fight but thanked you for loving and caring about the children of the church. I do appreciate that you took the fight off of church grounds though, at least some still have respect for Holy ground. I'm sure if I didn't scold you for fighting you would have thought less of me as a pastor.

Even though I would have been a little disappointed in the fight, you would have been welcomed back to the church I serve with open arms. The other man would be welcome too, if he so chose. However, the law would be laid down about what he did, and how it is unacceptable, immoral, and not inside the teachings of the church.

Doing something like that, I stand to lose two members or more. However, the safety of children, congregants not in fear of being beaten up, and the practices of the church have to be protected.

Again, of everything listed, the fight is the least of my worries, but the precedent would have to be set that it isn't kosher. However, in my personal opinion, not that big of a deal if the man was obviously in the wrong.

Again, I would never entirely kick someone out of the church. For the child-molester, I would strongly encourage him to attend elsewhere, pray for him, and even help him find somewhere to worship. Yet, all God's children are welcomed into his church, they are not my doors to close. I would tell the man that I would not let him serve in any capacity unless I saw evidence of a re-dedication or a spiritual rebirth.

Again, let me clarify. Vundy33, you could come back anytime with open arms. The other man, I would probably ask him not to return for his safety, and to keep a worship mindset at the church. If he insisted on staying, I would meet with the deacons/trustees/administrative-council/etc... and let them know his intentions, if they move to bar him, I would let him know their intentions, and work with him to find a church that he is comfortable in and a church that would be comfortable to have him. People like that are the ones that need to hear the Gospel the worst sometimes.

If I learned after a few Sunday's that the rest of the church is uncomfortable or leaving because of their attendance, I would ask the person to leave after the service. I never like to do that and it makes me a little uncomfortable to even type that I would ask someone to leave the church, but sometimes as a pastor we have to stay with the fold and let a sheep go, in prayer that they find their way. I would still call the person, email or whatever trying to help them find a true relationship with Jesus and to turn their life around.

I know my position will not be popular on here, but a pastor has to be known to have an iron fist, but a compassionate hand as well.

[Stardust]

^ LWC, that was a very nice post. What vundy did is very rare, and though I can completely understand why we should not use violence, I think I fall in vundy's category. I have a daughter, I would not have been one of those to stand around. Your way of handling at church is one that we should all be proud if our ministers handled in such way, but unfortunately, too many adults look the other way if they were not directly involved.

[TheRealVille]

Forcing Views?


An atheist group from somewhere out west threatened to file a lawsuit against MArtin County Board of Education if they allowed the football team to pray for a fallen friend. Now please tell me why that has anything to do with christians forcing anything on other people? Kids want to pray for a friend of theirs but are told by some jack ass they cant because he dont think its right for them to pray at a football game.

In the state of Kentucky, student lead prayer at functions is allowed. It's adult lead prayer that isn't allowed. At least, that's the way is was a couple of years ago.