[VHSL-helper]

Yeah, quoting Barack Obama ....

Yeah, I see a problem there... Obama never siad that.

What was that back in the 1st post that you quoted, a press release or something, that said...
"Before becoming President, Barack Obama promised to bankrupt coal companies."

A.) he never said that
B.) he was talking about electric companies/utilities

How many coal companies produce electricity?

[vundy33]

Why would he want to bankrupt either one? I've seen the power bill hikes and the people losing their minds about it, but I'm not sure if that is warranted, or people are just bitching about a price hike that had to be done because of our current economic situation...I don't have a power bill, so I'm really not sure about it. I've helped my mom pay her's during winter months and know the bill was ridiculous for what power she actually used, but that's really the extent of my knowledge concerning that.

Is this a reason Pres Obama said that about electric companies/utilities in general? And why necessarily does he hate/dislike coal?

[Hoot Gibson]

Yeah, I see a problem there... Obama never siad that.

What was that back in the 1st post that you quoted, a press release or something, that said...
"Before becoming President, Barack Obama promised to bankrupt coal companies."

A.) he never said that
B.) he was talking about electric companies/utilities

How many coal companies produce electricity?

Several utilities have their own coal subsidiaries and some power plants are built in the middle of coal reserves to reduce haulage expenses. Off of the top of my head, TECO and Electric Fuels (Florida Progress) are two such companies that operate in eastern Kentucky. Other utilities are located in large fields of lignite (a/k/a "brown coal") in Texas and North Dakota.

Even it some utilities did not mine and process their own coal, Obama's promise to bankrupt utilities that build new coal-fired power plants is a direct attack on the coal industry. Power generation if the largest use of coal by far and denying coal company's their customers is a sure way to bankrupt them.

[Hoot Gibson]

Why would he want to bankrupt either one? I've seen the power bill hikes and the people losing their minds about it, but I'm not sure if that is warranted, or people are just bitching about a price hike that had to be done because of our current economic situation...I don't have a power bill, so I'm really not sure about it. I've helped my mom pay her's during winter months and know the bill was ridiculous for what power she actually used, but that's really the extent of my knowledge concerning that.

Is this a reason Pres Obama said that about electric companies/utilities in general? And why necessarily does he hate/dislike coal?

Obama is a panderer. He panders to the extreme environmentalists. He panders to China, the EU, and other countries that criticize this country for its energy use. In a nutshell, environmentalist wackos support Obama and coal companies and people who depend on coal generally do not. Obama promised that utility rates would "necessarily" skyrocket under his energy program and he has worked hard to make good on that promise.[INDENT]

Barack Obama: "Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket." (January 2008)

[/INDENT]

[vundy33]

Thanks for the answer brother...

TheRealVille? Where are you? I'm sure you disagree with some of that, I want to see it so I can look at both sides.

:Thumbs:

[Hoot Gibson]

Thanks for the answer brother...

TheRealVille? Where are you? I'm sure you disagree with some of that, I want to see it so I can look at both sides.

:Thumbs:

In case you want to see and hear the words that I quoted coming off of Obama's own lips, .

[honestjchsfan]

You really have a serious reading comprehension problem, RV. Do you understand what an estimate is? All of the idiotic changes that Obama's EPA has proposed have not taken effect. Obama promised to crack down on coal-fired power plants and the EPA is working to make good on that promise.

You have no better idea what this crazy, left-wing president would do in a second term than anybody else. Whether the Big Sandy plant closes or not, Obama is working hard to force the adoption of more expensive and unproven methods of power generation such as wind turbines.

When plants begin closing, it will be because they cannot afford fines imposed by Obama's EPA. There will be no closure notice, just an effort to make coal-fired power more expensive than the alternatives through over regulation.

If it looks like Obama will not be reelected, then Obama will be sure to leave a mountain of ridiculously strict environmental regulations behind so that Democrats can accuse Republicans of plotting to destroy the environment when they relax the standards to achievable limits. That has been the history of liberal Democrats and that will be their future. They screw up the economy every time they get a taste of power.

When it comes to football Hoot I agree with but your statement about the Democrats screwing up the economy is wrong. Just about every major recession has started under a Republican President dating back to the great depression and Hoover. I have worked most of my Adult life as a Machinist and I was employed with one of the Worlds largest auto part manufactures when the bottom fail out of the economy during the second Bush term. The company I worked for lost close to $50 million and had to shut down two major production lines and layoff close to 100 people. The tax breaks that the Republicans handed out to the Large Oil companies were the root of the energy problems. The whole Republican Ideal of tax breaks for the wealthy and Big buisness forgets about human nature. It assumes that the money they save in taxes will be invested but it forgets that people are sometimes just greedy. When the big SUV and full size truck became too expensive for many people to drive (because gas prices were around $5 a gallon) this was like a knife in the belly to Ford and GMC. What did the Oil companies do??? They reported record profits! How does this effect Coal? When the production of cars is slowed the demand for steel is decreased and when there is a low demand for steel there is no major demand for Coal. I am not a Obama supporter but his move to bail out the USA Auto industry will someday be looked at as one of the smartest moves ever by a US President and probably saves the Coal industry. I do know this, when ever the company I use to work for ran parts for Toyota or Honda the steel was shipped in from Japan or China. All the steel that Ford or GMC or even Mercedes Benz used was made right here in the USA. The major mistake that Obama made was extending the Bush era Tax cuts in trade for extended unemployment benifits for the unemployed. Just like lots of people are greedy many people are lazy and cashed their unemployment check for 2 years instead of finding a job or creating their own job or business. This slowed the recovery of the economy. I voted for Clinton but if someone would have told me that Obama would save the US Auto industry and take out Bin-Ladden, I would have dam sure voted for him!

[TheRealVille]

Thanks for the answer brother...

TheRealVille? Where are you? I'm sure you disagree with some of that, I want to see it so I can look at both sides.

:Thumbs:

Naaaah, Hoot has it covered. I'm trying to downsize the idiocy in my life, and I can't do that while conversing with Hoot. He has it all covered.

[vundy33]

Naaaah, Hoot has it covered. I'm trying to downsize the time idiocy in my life, and I can't do that while conversing with Hoot. He has it all covered.

lol, the reason I ask for your opinion on it is because I like to get both conservative and liberal views on these things.

Are you saying he is pretty much correct?

[vundy33]

Well, I guess not, haha. I didn't catch the second sentence in that before the above post.

Also, Pres. Obama didn't kill Bin Laden, the U.S. military and CIA did. Same thing goes for Pres. Bush and Saddam. I know what you mean though, I think. I just don't like to see politicians credited with things they didn't have much of a hand in. I do give him kudos for making the decision to send troops in to kill him directly instead of an air/missile strike, and especially for not telling the Paki's about it. One of his best decisions for sure.

[TheRealVille]

The truth is out there if you don't care to search for it. After my long talk with Bob last night I decided to just vote the way I want and let everybody just do as they want, and try to get rid of the hatred in my life. It's not worth it when your life is half over, to sweat the small stuff.

[TheRealVille]

lol, the reason I ask for your opinion on it is because I like to get both conservative and liberal views on these things.

Are you saying he is pretty much correct?

No, you are just trying to stir shit. My opinion is well versed on this thread.

[vundy33]

No, you are just trying to stir shit. My opinion is well versed on this thread.

Don't be a dick. I'm not trying to stir shit, I'm genuinely asking for your opinion, good God man. You don't have to be so high-strung and defensive.

I don't support 100% of what either of you say, but I agree with both of you on quite a few things. I do my own research, but I like hearing opinions of people I at least know somewhat and trust, instead of idiots commenting on articles on news websites. Do you get what I'm saying?

[TheRealVille]

Don't be a dick. I'm not trying to stir shit, I'm genuinely asking for your opinion, good God man. You don't have to be so high-strung and defensive.

I don't support 100% of what either of you say, but I agree with both of you on quite a few things. I do my own research, but I like hearing opinions of people I at least know somewhat and trust, instead of idiots commenting on articles on news websites. Do you get what I'm saying?

My apologies then. It looked to me like you were trying to get us going. Sorry for the mistake. Honestjchsfan might want to take over for me, I'm tired of the arguing over this stuff.

Concerning your other post above, I don't remember giving Obama credit for killing anyone. If I did, I must have been drunk, or just trying to have fun with one of the guys here, because I don't give him credit for it. Any credit I give goes to the military. I'm not really a liberal in anything but social issues, on everything else, I'm in the middle. Most likely, my next vote for President will go to a Republican, if the right one gets the nomination.

[Hoot Gibson]

When it comes to football Hoot I agree with but your statement about the Democrats screwing up the economy is wrong. Just about every major recession has started under a Republican President dating back to the great depression and Hoover. I have worked most of my Adult life as a Machinist and I was employed with one of the Worlds largest auto part manufactures when the bottom fail out of the economy during the second Bush term. The company I worked for lost close to $50 million and had to shut down two major production lines and layoff close to 100 people. The tax breaks that the Republicans handed out to the Large Oil companies were the root of the energy problems. The whole Republican Ideal of tax breaks for the wealthy and Big buisness forgets about human nature. It assumes that the money they save in taxes will be invested but it forgets that people are sometimes just greedy. When the big SUV and full size truck became too expensive for many people to drive (because gas prices were around $5 a gallon) this was like a knife in the belly to Ford and GMC. What did the Oil companies do??? They reported record profits! How does this effect Coal? When the production of cars is slowed the demand for steel is decreased and when there is a low demand for steel there is no major demand for Coal. I am not a Obama supporter but his move to bail out the USA Auto industry will someday be looked at as one of the smartest moves ever by a US President and probably saves the Coal industry. I do know this, when ever the company I use to work for ran parts for Toyota or Honda the steel was shipped in from Japan or China. All the steel that Ford or GMC or even Mercedes Benz used was made right here in the USA. The major mistake that Obama made was extending the Bush era Tax cuts in trade for extended unemployment benifits for the unemployed. Just like lots of people are greedy many people are lazy and cashed their unemployment check for 2 years instead of finding a job or creating their own job or business. This slowed the recovery of the economy. I voted for Clinton but if someone would have told me that Obama would save the US Auto industry and take out Bin-Ladden, I would have dam sure voted for him!

More Americans are out of work today under the Obama administration than at any time in this country's history, including the Great Depression. (Granted, population has a lot to do with that fact - but unemployment has soared far above what it was at the end of the Bush administration and unemployment was very low for more than six years of his two terms.)

The steel industry is no longer the major consumer of coal that it once was. Most modern steel mills no longer use coke, so the metallurgical coal market has been declining for years. Much of the steel that is imported from Japan is first shipped to them as scrap metal. Most of it is melted using high voltage vessels, blended with trace elements for different grades, and then shipped back to this country. I spent some time working at a large Indiana steel mill developing software applications and that is the process that they use. Most mills that used coke in this country have been shut down or upgraded because they cannot compete with the modern Japanese and American mills.

Obama is a socialist. The bailout, as you call it, of GM and Chrysler amounted to the federal government pumping billions of dollars of tax dollars into the companies, meddling in their business decisions, and leaving many shareholders (including pensioners) high and dry as they forced GM to give the UAW a large ownership stake in the company. Now, the UAW, a major shareholder of GM, will be negotiating a contract with GM's competitor, Ford - which refused to accept a bailout. GM was given billions of dollars that will never be repaid to the federal government. Give any company a blank government check and it will survive until the government goes broke.

As for oil companies, their record profits amount to pennies on the dollar (around 10 of them typically). Those profit margins pale compare to the ones posted by companies in many other industries, including software. Oil companies generate hundreds of thousands of jobs and American oil companies are dwarfed in size by the Chinese national oil company and as large as they are, they are too small to fix prices the way that Democrats like Obama claim. When a company has more than $100 billion in revenue, a $10 billion profit is not all that great. In other words, a 10 percent return in today's market is pretty good, but you would earn far more in dividends investing in a company like Microsoft or Apple in a typical year.

I know that I am not going to convince you that Obama is doing major long term damage to our economy. If you really want to understand economics, I encourage you to watch some videos of Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell on Youtube. After watching them, read as much as you can or watch some videos featuring Nobel Prize-winning New York Times columnist Paul Krugman and decide which economic theories are more compelling.

One last thing, look up charts showing job recovery following the Bush recession (the Obama "recovery") and compare it to every other recovery since the Great Depression. if you have not already compared the jobless recovery under Obama to previous recoveries, I think that you will be shocked. Do the research and then tell me that I am wrong but don't rely on what you hear politicians from either party tell you is happening to our economy.

[Hoot Gibson]

Naaaah, Hoot has it covered. I'm trying to downsize the idiocy in my life, and I can't do that while conversing with Hoot. He has it all covered.

It's impossible to dispute a video, so why not call the person who posted it an idiot? Typical RV.nicker:

[vundy33]

My apologies then. It looked to me like you were trying to get us going. Sorry for the mistake. Honestjchsfan might want to take over for me, I'm tired of the arguing over this stuff.

Concerning your other post above, I don't remember giving Obama credit for killing anyone. If I did, I must have been drunk, or just trying to have fun with one of the guys here, because I don't give him credit for it. Any credit I give goes to the military. I'm not really a liberal in anything but social issues, on everything else, I'm in the middle. Most likely, my next vote for President will go to a Republican, if the right one gets the nomination.

Haha, it's cool man.

And I wasn't talking to you about Pres Obama, I was talking to the guy that posted above you. I know it's off-subject but I couldn't help myself, lol. Also, for anyone else that sees it too, I'm not being trying to take credit away from Pres Obama because I'm conservative or anything like that, it's because he sat in a room while other men killed him. I say the same thing about Pres Bush, and I love him, lol. Like I said, I give Pres Obama more kudos for making the decision he did. Imagine if something had went wrong and we lost 30-60 American lives on that mission, and didn't get Bin Laden...can you imagine the shit-storm he would've went through? It was one hell of a decision, and I give him the credit for it. :Thumbs:

Also, I've noticed you're more middle of the road than a few of us give you credit for, lol.

[TheRealVille]

It's impossible to dispute a video, so why not call the person who posted it an idiot? Typical RV.nicker:

Even though after looking at that post it looks like I called you an idiot, I didn't mean it that way. What I meant and didn't put in the proper words, was that I was tired of all the idiotic bantering back and forth. I did mean the last sentence though, but what I meant was that you had it covered, in that you seem to have all the absolutes as far as politics go, so I was just going to let you cover it. As I said in a post on this thread or another, I'm just going to vote the way I want, and let everybody else do the same.

[honestjchsfan]

More Americans are out of work today under the Obama administration than at any time in this country's history, including the Great Depression. (Granted, population has a lot to do with that fact - but unemployment has soared far above what it was at the end of the Bush administration and unemployment was very low for more than six years of his two terms.)

[B]The steel industry is no longer the major consumer of coal that it once was. Most [/B]modern steel mills no longer use coke, so the metallurgical coal market has been declining for years. Much of the steel that is imported from Japan is first shipped to them as scrap metal. Most of it is melted using high voltage vessels, blended with trace elements for different grades, and then shipped back to this country. I spent some time working at a large Indiana steel mill developing software applications and that is the process that they use. Most mills that used coke in this country have been shut down or upgraded because they cannot compete with the modern Japanese and American mills.

Obama is a socialist. The bailout, as you call it, of GM and Chrysler amounted to the federal government pumping billions of dollars of tax dollars into the companies, meddling in their business decisions, and leaving many shareholders (including pensioners) high and dry as they forced GM to give the UAW a large ownership stake in the company. Now, the UAW, a major shareholder of GM, will be negotiating a contract with GM's competitor, Ford - which refused to accept a bailout. GM was given billions of dollars that will never be repaid to the federal government. Give any company a blank [B]government check and it will survive until the government goes broke[/B].

As for oil companies, their record profits amount to pennies on the dollar (around 10 of them typically). Those profit margins pale compare to the ones posted by companies in many other industries, including software. Oil companies generate hundreds of thousands of jobs and American oil companies are dwarfed in size by the Chinese national oil company and as large as they are, they are too small to fix prices the way that Democrats like Obama claim. When a company has more than $100 billion in revenue, a $10 billion profit is not all that great. In other words, a 10 percent return in today's market is pretty good, but you would earn far more in dividends investing in a company like Microsoft or Apple in a typical year.

I know that I am not going to convince you that Obama is doing major long term damage to our economy. If you really want to understand economics, I encourage you to watch some videos of Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell on Youtube. After watching them, read as much as you can or watch some videos featuring Nobel Prize-winning New York Times columnist Paul Krugman and decide which economic theories are more compelling.

One last thing, look up charts showing job recovery following the Bush recession (the Obama "recovery") and compare it to every other recovery since the Great Depression. if you have not already compared the jobless recovery under Obama to previous recoveries, I think that you will be shocked. Do the research and then tell me that I am wrong but don't rely on what you hear politicians from either party tell you is happening to our economy.

With all do respect the statements in Bold are false statements, the US goverment is and has been getting a nice return from its investment in GM and Chrysler. Plus many people benifit in having a job at GM or Chrysler or one of their suppliers. I don't think you fully understand Lean Manufacturing, if one of the major production lines at Ford or GM is shut down for one day then the production line for a parts supplier is shut down too or they're not following the principles of Lean Manufacturing. You also speak about modern Steel Mills. Were do you think these Electric Arc Furnaces get there power? The Republicain idea of what is surposed to happen in the US Economy is "The Rich get Richer and the poor get poorer" when that's not happening they are not happy. The longest period of peace-time economic expansion was during the Bill Clinton term as president. Clinton forced the rich and the big companies to annie up and pay like they should. If a big company like Walmart puts fleet after fleet of trucks on the road each day then it is common sense that they should pay a higher tax rate than a small business because they using the infrastructure more. There percentage of use is higher so their tax-rate should be higher. Just as I have said before the economic recovery has been slow because of human nature to be lazy. After I lost my job I started my own Machine shop and my business has grown very fast and I was very thankful for the tax breaks I got from Obama's Stimulus plan. I purchased a new CNC milling Machine this past July and my plan is to move from the Paintsville area and relocate my business soon.

[Hoot Gibson]

With all do respect the statements in Bold are false statements, the US goverment is and has been getting a nice return from its investment in GM and Chrysler. Plus many people benifit in having a job at GM or Chrysler or one of their suppliers. I don't think you fully understand Lean Manufacturing, if one of the major production lines at Ford or GM is shut down for one day then the production line for a parts supplier is shut down too or they're not following the principles of Lean Manufacturing. You also speak about modern Steel Mills. Were do you think these Electric Arc Furnaces get there power? The Republicain idea of what is surposed to happen in the US Economy is "The Rich get Richer and the poor get poorer" when that's not happening they are not happy. The longest period of peace-time economic expansion was during the Bill Clinton term as president. Clinton forced the rich and the big companies to annie up and pay like they should. If a big company like Walmart puts fleet after fleet of trucks on the road each day then it is common sense that they should pay a higher tax rate than a small business because they using the infrastructure more. There percentage of use is higher so their tax-rate should be higher. Just as I have said before the economic recovery has been slow because of human nature to be lazy. After I lost my job I started my own Machine shop and my business has grown very fast and I was very thankful for the tax breaks I got from Obama's Stimulus plan. I purchased a new CNC milling Machine this past July and my plan is to move from the Paintsville area and relocate my business soon.

You make an excellent point about steel companies being major consumers of electricity but point was not wrong. Years ago, steel companies paid a hefty premium for the high quality metallurgical grade coal that they required and consumed directly. While steel producers still consume large amounts of coal indirectly, the electricity that they consume often comes from nuclear, hydroelectric, or gas power plants.

As for your point about the taxpayers earning a nice return on their "investment" - that is just flat out wrong. I will address that point and your implication that Wal-Mart is undertaxed when I have more time. That is, unless you want to do some more research and set the record straight yourself. :biggrin:

[Bob Seger]

With all do respect the statements in Bold are false statements, the US goverment is and has been getting a nice return from its investment in GM and Chrysler. Plus many people benifit in having a job at GM or Chrysler or one of their suppliers. I don't think you fully understand Lean Manufacturing, if one of the major production lines at Ford or GM is shut down for one day then the production line for a parts supplier is shut down too or they're not following the principles of Lean Manufacturing. You also speak about modern Steel Mills. Were do you think these Electric Arc Furnaces get there power? The Republicain idea of what is surposed to happen in the US Economy is "The Rich get Richer and the poor get poorer" when that's not happening they are not happy. The longest period of peace-time economic expansion was during the Bill Clinton term as president. Clinton forced the rich and the big companies to annie up and pay like they should. If a big company like Walmart puts fleet after fleet of trucks on the road each day then it is common sense that they should pay a higher tax rate than a small business because they using the infrastructure more. There percentage of use is higher so their tax-rate should be higher. Just as I have said before the economic recovery has been slow because of human nature to be lazy. After I lost my job I started my own Machine shop and my business has grown very fast and I was very thankful for the tax breaks I got from Obama's Stimulus plan. I purchased a new CNC milling Machine this past July and my plan is to move from the Paintsville area and relocate my business soon.

Please note that there is a big difference in starting a business from scratch, rather than inheriting an established business and not having to purchase very expensive milling machines as a start up venture. You did not have to venture a great deal of capital into your business. Your example is probably not the best at proving your statements. I note you did say you just invested in a CNC milling machine. You as a layed off statistic trying to find a job, would you say that you would have been able to make an intial investment of a pretty expensive piece of equiptment right off the bat, if it were not for you being basicly set up from the get go? You do have a niche business that has been lacking in this area for a while now, with little competition. IMO , all it took is for someone to work what you have had the advantage of acquiring. Truely start one from scratch with just a few nickles and dimes, build it, fight the system, fight the huge conglomates for a small piece of that pie, and you will see quickly how insurmountable the mountain can be. Obama is doing nothing but damage to the backbone of this countries econmic stucture. You are one of the lucky ones that didn't have to fight the odds.

[honestjchsfan]

Please note that there is a big difference in starting a business from scratch, rather than inheriting an established business and not having to purchase very expensive milling machines as a start up venture. You did not have to venture a great deal of capital into your business. Your example is probably not the best at proving your statements. I note you did say you just invested in a CNC milling machine. You as a layed off statistic trying to find a job, would you say that you would have been able to make an intial investment of a pretty expensive piece of equiptment right off the bat, if it were not for you being basicly set up from the get go? You do have a niche business that has been lacking in this area for a while now, with little competition. IMO , all it took is for someone to work what you have had the advantage of acquiring. Truely start one from scratch with just a few nickles and dimes, build it, fight the system, fight the huge conglomates for a small piece of that pie, and you will see quickly how insurmountable the mountain can be. Obama is doing nothing but damage to the backbone of this countries econmic stucture. You are one of the lucky ones that didn't have to fight the odds.

You are correct I was very lucky, my former employer provided me with a very generous severance package. Again you are correct my business is a niche business with little competion. The down economy has probably helped many "repair" type machine shops because many companies have elected to repair the old out dated machine instead of buying new. I follow the German philosophy that quality trumps quantity, this may not win you many World Wars but it is very good for keeping customers. When this philosophy is combined with modern technology the results can be great. The lack of modern technology is it the reason for closing the old out dated coal fired power plants. In my Machine Shop I have a 1952 model Lodge & Shipley lathe, many Lathe-men have stood in front of her making parts, she has stood the test of time but there is simply no way that the old Lathe can compete with a Modern CNC lathe. This does not mean the old lathe is useless she will make just as good of parts as the CNC lathe will but at a much greater cost. Its the same for the old coal fired power plants. One of the biggest mistakes that to Coal business has made is not keeping up with technology. In the Machine tool business the competion is great they have built faster, easier to use machine tools and reached out to show people how to use there product better. The coal business has found ways to mine coal faster, cheaper and safer but they have failed in teaching their customers better ways to use Coal. Why I dont know.

[Hoot Gibson]

The column linked below is a few months old but the author does a nice job explaining why the notion that taxpayers are profiting from their "investments" in Chrysler and General Motors is nonsense. I have been looking at buying another car to use to carpool across town to work and I have pledged never to buy another car made by GM. (I have never owned, nor would I own any of the junk produced by Chrysler, with or without, a bailout.) I will not support socialism in my own country.[INDENT]

General Motors Will Never Repay Taxpayers
Obama's spin on GM's latest profit report is pure baloney

The Obama administration, and its media backers, have seized upon news that General Motors made a $3.2 billion profit in the first quarter of 2011 as proof positive that its auto bailout is a success. President Obama is so buoyed that he is reportedly planning to make the bailout a major part of his reelection campaign.

But by this standard, Charlie Sheen’s comedy tour ought to be declared a smash hit. Sheen’s backers will lose relatively less money on him than taxpayers will on the bailout.

No sooner had GM made its announcement than Washington Post columnist E.J. Dionne dashed off a stinging rebuke to naysayers (like me) who had dared doubt the wisdom of the bailout. Likewise, the auto czar Ron Bloom credited the turnaround to the president’s “tough love” approach.

No doubt, $3.2 billion is a big number. But an even bigger number is $60 billion. That’s what this administration and the last one together sank into GM (not to mention another $20 billion or so they dumped into Chrysler). When President Obama gave GM this money, he insisted that it was not a handout but an “investment” that would cost taxpayers “not a dime.”

But if there was ever any doubt that this wasn’t going to happen, this earning report dispels it.

For starters, included in the $3.2 billion figure is the net $1.5 billion that the company generated from the one-time sale of Delphi, its auto parts supplier, and Ally Financial, its financial arm. Subtract that, and its performance looks much less impressive, especially compared to its rival Ford that really didn’t receive a dime from taxpayers yet made $2.6 billion last quarter—or nearly a billion more than GM.

But cold, hard cash is not the only help that GM got. Usually when companies declare bankruptcy, their tax liabilities increase since they have no more losses to write off. But GM got Uncle Sam’s special bankruptcy package that allows it write off up to $45 billion of old losses going forward. That puts its total bailout at up to $75 billion*. Even that’s not all. The Treasury gave GM $10 billion of the $60 billion as a loan; the rest was through the purchase of equity. (It has more or less paid back the loan.)

[/INDENT]

[honestjchsfan]

The column linked below is a few months old but the author does a nice job explaining why the notion that taxpayers are profiting from their "investments" in Chrysler and General Motors is nonsense. I have been looking at buying another car to use to carpool across town to work and I have pledged never to buy another car made by GM. (I have never owned, nor would I own any of the junk produced by Chrysler, with or without, a bailout.) I will not support socialism in my own country.[INDENT][/INDENT]

To you it may be nonsense but to me it was lending a hand to someone that was blindsided by the Bush Tax breaks and subsides for the Oil Companies. We all remember the excuses the Oil Companies made for gas being over $4 per gallon, first it was Curde Oil Shortage then it was refining capacity later it was hurricane Katrina but the truth is simple GREED. The oil companies knew that the best time to make record profits is when there tax rate on those profits was going to be at its lowest point in years. Those greedy pigs stuck it to the US people deep and hard, in the process they took down GM and Chrysler and had Ford out on its feet. Working Class people could no longer afford to buy fuel for the big SUV or full size trucks so sales plummeted. When the sales plummeted production was slowed or stopped. When the lines at the Big three stop thousands of parts suppling companies stop too. At the place I use to work for they made Coil springs and stablizer bars for the big three, when the big three stopped production for one day they stopped production. The company I used to work for survived because of smart leadership and the forsight to invest in a rapidly consumable Auto products like oil, fuel and air Filters. The big three auto makers and there workers have paid taxes to the US goverment for over 100 years and the knowlege of mass Production in Detroit was one of the main reasons the United States was able to win World War 2. One never knows when that knowlege and skill may be needed again. IMO it was in the best interest of the US people for the US goverment to make sure these 2 companies survive for both economic and security reasons.

[Hoot Gibson]

You never even addressed the fact that the numbers that I posted directly contradicted your assertion that taxpayers have earned a nice return on their "investment."

As for gas prices, how do you explain the fact that they dropped under Bush as the recession worsened, rose as the recession ended under Obama, and have dropped sharply as we have entered the Obama recession?

What this country needs is a healthy economy with pro-business government that will allow US companies to compete internationally. Socialism has never worked anywhere and it will not work here either.

[honestjchsfan]

You never even addressed the fact that the numbers that I posted directly contradicted your assertion that taxpayers have earned a nice return on their "investment."

[[/As for gas prices, how do you explain the fact that they dropped under Bush as the recession worsened, rose as the recession ended under Obama, and have dropped sharply as we have entered the Obama recession[B]?

What this country needs is a healthy economy with pro-business government that will allow US companies to compete internationally. Socialism has never worked anywhere and it will not work here either.

The reason gas prices dropped as the BUSH recession worsened was because the public started using less gas many people started car pooling and the sales of small gas saving cars like the Toyota Corolla shy rocketed. The reason they have dropped under Obama is because he tapped into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve thus weakening the demand for petroleum. This was a old trick of Bill Clinton to keep the Wall Street speculators in check. Yes I agree this country needs a healthy economy this is done by passing laws that benefit the majority of US citzens and free enterprise.

[TheRealThing]

Another thing that report doesn't tell you is about all the brand new coal, gas, and nuke units being built as we speak. For every one that close, there is at least one, maybe two that are being built in their place.

I really hope you're right about this stuff. What scares me is Obama's statement that we would see electricity costs necessarily skyrocket under his plan. Skyrocket how and for what? And sorry, but I don't trust them to make sure there is a new plant waiting in the wings to replace everyone they're going to close. Greater likelyhood is thats more rhetoric. This is about the liberal green agenda not upgrading our power grid.

Since when did the EPA take over shutting down coal fired plants in favor of the gas fired plants anyway? Doesn't the updating process normally fall to the utility companies involved? The federal government has it's nose rammed into everything these days. Who threw the switch? How is it that all this is now the purview of government?

I loved what I heard last night about shutting down the epa and the department of education. A lot more of them need to go too. You know they're going to tell us not to worry. If you think these guys are above making us suffer to fulfill their agenda I would suggest you may be a little gullable. They're on a mission to save the planet, we're just acceptable collateral damage.

[TheRealVille]

I really hope you're right about this stuff. What scares me is Obama's statement that we would see electricity costs necessarily skyrocket under his plan. Skyrocket how and for what? And sorry, but I don't trust them to make sure there is a new plant waiting in the wings to replace everyone they're going to close. Greater likelyhood is thats more rhetoric. This is about the liberal green agenda not upgrading our power grid.

Since when did the EPA take over shutting down coal fired plants in favor of the gas fired plants anyway? Doesn't the updating process normally fall to the utility companies involved? The federal government has it's nose rammed into everything these days. Who threw the switch? How is it that all this is now the purview of government?

I loved what I heard last night about shutting down the epa and the department of education. A lot more of them need to go too. You know they're going to tell us not to worry. If you think these guys are above making us suffer to fulfill their agenda I would suggest you may be a little gullable. They're on a mission to save the planet, we're just acceptable collateral damage.

You don't have to trust it, it's fact. I have friends working to help build them all over the country. There are several in Indiana being built as we speak. They tried to get me to go to 2 or 3 different ones in that state in the last 2 years. I have been called to go to several different states just this year to work on them. I just chose to stay close to home lately. New coal units being built as we speak is a fact.

[Hoot Gibson]

The reason gas prices dropped as the BUSH recession worsened was because the public started using less gas many people started car pooling and the sales of small gas saving cars like the Toyota Corolla shy rocketed. The reason they have dropped under Obama is because he tapped into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve thus weakening the demand for petroleum. This was a old trick of Bill Clinton to keep the Wall Street speculators in check. Yes I agree this country needs a healthy economy this is done by passing laws that benefit the majority of US citzens and free enterprise.

More Democratic talking points nonsense. The economy has worsened dramatically under Obama, which is the reason for the drop in oil prices. Dipping into the strategic petroleum reserve was not the reason for the drop. The civil war in Libya reduced global production of oil in Libya by 1.5 million barrels of oil per day. Obama released 30 million barrels of oil from the reserve - which offset the lost production from Libya for the equivalent of 20 days. Yet gasoline prices have continued to decline since the reserves were tapped in June.

Speculators react to market expectations. They do not buy large quantities of oil at high prices and drive up prices when they expect the economy to worsen. Demand is down, so prices are down. Obama has influenced the prices but not in the way that you think. He has lowered the expectations of Americans with his incompetence. Virtually nobody believes that the economy will improve under this president. He is a lame duck.

[Hoot Gibson]

You don't have to trust it, it's fact. I have friends working to help build them all over the country. There are several in Indiana being built as we speak. They tried to get me to go to 2 or 3 different ones in that state in the last 2 years. I have been called to go to several different states just this year to work on them. I just chose to stay close to home lately. New coal units being built as we speak is a fact.

Even if enough coal fired power plants were being built to replace all of the lost production capacity of the ones that are being shut down - which is not happening, the early shutdowns are driving utility prices skyward just as Obama promised. He could not get the cap and trade bill passed in Congress, so he is attempting to achieve the same result without legislation through tightening EPA controls without the consent of Congress. It is like breading out windows and then claiming that new jobs were created in the glass industry. When the economy finally recovers, there will be widespread brown outs and blackouts.