Middle School to High School question

Jumper Dad · 10-15-2011, 10:57 PM

Why can't middle school success transfer to high school?

Several middle school programs are very strong and produce really good teams year in and year out. Yet the high schools they feed never seem to have any sustained success. A couple of the really good middle school programs around here that I've watched over the past several years are North Laurel and Clay County. They are good to very, very good year in and year out, but the high schools they feed seem to struggle more often than not, at least as compared the success those kids had in middle school.

I know most of the strong programs in our area also have strong middle school teams, but why do some strong middle schools not produce better high school teams?

What is everyones thoughts on this.

Jumper Dad · 10-15-2011, 10:58 PM

Do the most middle schools run the same schemes as their high school? or is the middle school runing the 'bone while the high school runs the spread?

~~Wideleft01~~ · 10-15-2011, 11:06 PM

Your middle school programs aren't playing any teams that are any account.

Jumper Dad · 10-15-2011, 11:10 PM

most middle schools play the same teams their high schools do.

**RunItUpTheGut** · 10-16-2011, 12:16 AM

Ive thought about this a million times and even discussed it on here a million times.
I know Whitley has had some GREAT middle school teams. Even going undefeated for 5 or 6 straight years and beating teams like Bell County and so on but when they get to high school they lose to Bell.
From the way ive got it figured, youve got 8th grade teams at Whitley over the years who have dressed close to 60-70 players. All of the kids from 6 different elementary school join up with each other and dominate. The biggest thing is, its not as serious and its FUN for the kids.
You can almost guarantee that by the time freshman year comes, that number will be cut in half atleast. A lot of kids are scared or dont think they can play at the high school level so they just dont bother. so when you cut that number in half every year they go threw high school, you end up having 7 or 8 seniors.
To make this work i fully believe you have to have a coach thats not content with the old way style of coaching and the "hard ass" approach to football like it use to be. Dont get me wrong, i love are coach, but i fully believe that in the near future, young energetic coaches will be the only way to go. If i was a new coach the very first day of school id walk in and say i need to see all boys in the school for 20 minutes in the gym. Then when i got them in there id say anybody who wants to play, come out. Nobody is going to bother you. If its not for you, fine go on home, nothing will be said. If you like it, heck we might come up with a pretty good football team and more importantly a good start to building a PROGRAM.

**PHSForever** · 10-16-2011, 12:52 AM

RunItUpTheGut Wrote:Ive thought about this a million times and even discussed it on here a million times.
I know Whitley has had some GREAT middle school teams. Even going undefeated for 5 or 6 straight years and beating teams like Bell County and so on but when they get to high school they lose to Bell.
From the way ive got it figured, youve got 8th grade teams at Whitley over the years who have dressed close to 60-70 players. All of the kids from 6 different elementary school join up with each other and dominate. The biggest thing is, its not as serious and its FUN for the kids.
You can almost guarantee that by the time freshman year comes, that number will be cut in half atleast. A lot of kids are scared or dont think they can play at the high school level so they just dont bother. so when you cut that number in half every year they go threw high school, you end up having 7 or 8 seniors.
To make this work i fully believe you have to have a coach thats not content with the old way style of coaching and the "hard ass" approach to football like it use to be. Dont get me wrong, i love are coach, but i fully believe that in the near future, young energetic coaches will be the only way to go. If i was a new coach the very first day of school id walk in and say i need to see all boys in the school for 20 minutes in the gym. Then when i got them in there id say anybody who wants to play, come out. Nobody is going to bother you. If its not for you, fine go on home, nothing will be said. If you like it, heck we might come up with a pretty good football team and more importantly a good start to building a PROGRAM.

I'm of the same opinion somewhat. My thoughts are:

1) TEACH THE BASICS OF FOOTBALL TO ALL THE PLAYERS FROM 3rd/4th GRADE ON.
2) Dont' settle on 11-15 players whom are your best and the heck with the rest of the team, develop 'em all, play 'em all
3) By junior high, they should have strong fundamentals and know base offense and defense of the high school program
4) Junior high starts seperating them a little based on talent, but not always, so keep playing as many as you can, try them on both sides of the ball and at different positions, coaches' job is to win, yes, but also put kids in best position to succeed and contribute
5) MAKE IT FUN while young and develop a camraderie. That's what happened with Pikeville's magical run in the 80's, those kids grew up playing together and having fun.
6) High school, junior high, and elementary/little league coaches should talk and pick each other's brains.

I was watching the 5th/6th grade here practice the other night. I've had my concerns about some coaching, but, for the first time, I noticed some of the junior high players out there giving little tips here and there and watching the younger players. Good to see that, and good to see the coaches didn't seem bothered by this. Continuity is the key. Heck, my own son pals around with the high school player who wears the same number, and he has been a GREAT example for my son, talking to him about being aggressive but also playing within the rules and enjoying the game. That goes a long way.

***Spud6*** · 10-16-2011, 12:56 AM

In grade school you could have about 6 great athletes and dominate, but in high school. You have to have at least 10 to 15 great athletes to win.

**PHSForever** · 10-16-2011, 12:58 AM

MisterPerfect Wrote:In grade school you could have about 6 great athletes and dominate, but in high school. You have to have at least 10 to 15 great athletes to win.

Which is exactly why you have to play 'em all and develop 'em all, not just a select few. I cringe every time I see the same 2 or 3 players in every game get 95% of the carries or catches. Just sets the program up for failure down the road. Nothing wrong with going to your playmakers in big situations, but gotta give others a chance to see how they react in pressure situations, etc.

***Spud6*** · 10-16-2011, 01:37 AM

PHSForever Wrote:Which is exactly why you have to play 'em all and develop 'em all, not just a select few. I cringe every time I see the same 2 or 3 players in every game get 95% of the carries or catches. Just sets the program up for failure down the road. Nothing wrong with going to your playmakers in big situations, but gotta give others a chance to see how they react in pressure situations, etc.

Agree my good fellow! And your high school coach should be on the same page as the grade school and give them the playbook they will see in high school. So they already know the plays when they get in high school.

CBW57 · 10-16-2011, 10:07 AM

We have the same problem here in Mont Co our middle school averages 70-90 kids every year and then when it comes to high school we dress 35 kids on varsity. The same kids who quit are at the games walking around instead of being on the field helping the team.

Jumper Dad · 10-16-2011, 05:44 PM

I think a lot of has to do with a lack of "Recruiting" when you talk about a numbers drop from 8th to 9th grade.

1. If the HS coach isn't around the MS team then there is a fear of the unknown. Kids just see HS coach as this big mean imposing figure. HS coach needs to be around MS team as much as possible and let those kids know that they are already a part of that schools "Program".

2. Too many coaches have the opinion that if they want to play they'll come to me, they never "recruit" their own hallways and middle schools. Their are boys walking up and down the halls of every school that would play and could help the team if someone just asked them to come out and try.

BriarCreekBrave · 10-16-2011, 06:23 PM

A lot of times there are "distractions" that keep kids from playing at the high school level. It is all about numbers, and when kids don't play it lowers the ability of the HS to have success.

Distractions:
1. Jobs (kids want money for cars, girls, cars, girls, girls, cars)
2. Grades (sadly, some think they don't have to perform in the class room because they are athletes)
3. Family (parents don't support them playing)
4. Family (My kid should be starting and if he is not he ain't playing)
5. Holdbacks (kids catch up with the ones who are held back)
6. Burnout (kids have been playing since first grade in some cases and are just tired of it.
7. Loss of interest (speaks for itself)
8. Misc.
9. Transfers (kid goes somewhere else to play)

Some high school coaches stop just short of giving a kidney to get a kid out and they are such prima donnas they are just out of reach of reality....seriously scary but true.

**Stardust** · 10-16-2011, 06:57 PM

Guy's it's as simple as physical development. Our student athletes make dramatic physical changes going from MS to HS. How many times to you see the reversal of skill position to line and vice versa. I've seen bigger kids dominate at the youth level, but once they get to HS, other athletes have caught them athletically. I'm sure all of you can look back to that player who was a "Can't Miss" before they ever got to HS, and once at HS, well - THEY MISSED!

The physical body changes to athletes more than the schemes that the teams run is the biggest factor. Like I said, those difference makers in MS, do not necessarily translate in HS.

**RunItUpTheGut** · 10-16-2011, 10:25 PM

Jumper Dad Wrote:I think a lot of has to do with a lack of "Recruiting" when you talk about a numbers drop from 8th to 9th grade.

1. If the HS coach isn't around the MS team then there is a fear of the unknown. Kids just see HS coach as this big mean imposing figure. HS coach needs to be around MS team as much as possible and let those kids know that they are already a part of that schools "Program".

2. Too many coaches have the opinion that if they want to play they'll come to me, they never "recruit" their own hallways and middle schools. Their are boys walking up and down the halls of every school that would play and could help the team if someone just asked them to come out and try.

Great post Jumper.
I believe the MOST important thing all relies on the relationship the middle school and high school coach have. If a kid hears "its gonna be great when you get in high school and youll love it" while hes playing middle school football while hes there hes more than likely gonna play high school.
If a kid heres his middle school coach belittling the high school than there gonna favor them because thats THERE coach.

Good point Jumper

IceQB · 10-16-2011, 11:26 PM

I think this is where good programs separate themselves form schools that have good teams (every couple of years). Too often people "get drunk" on the success of middle school kids. 1 or 2 kids who have matured early can dominate middle school football games and everyone thinks they are the next great thing. Then in a couple of years when everyone has matured things are a little different. Schools with a good football program teach basics and keep kids playing in middle school and worry about the W's and L's at the high school level. Schools that typically aren't successful in high school keep waiting on that next greeat middle school group to come along.

64black&gold · 10-16-2011, 11:30 PM

MisterPerfect Wrote:Agree my good fellow! And your high school coach should be on the same page as the grade school and give them the playbook they will see in high school. So they already know the plays when they get in high school.

I think you can teach them some similar terminology but if your high school team is running the same plays as your grade school teams then that should tell you why your high school team is struggling.

**RunItUpTheGut** · 10-16-2011, 11:43 PM

^
I do think you need a good enough relationship with the middle school coach where he can instill the same type of offensive formations and stuff into his style as the offense of the high school runs.
Take Whitley for example with a flex bone/option offense.
Its very complicated and sophisticated. I think its important that these kids be running the option in middle school to prepare for high school. And while Whitley has gone astray from the option some over the past couple of years, id like to see it brought back in full force. Our offense now is pretty much fullback up the gut.

**More Cowbell** · 10-17-2011, 01:05 AM

PHSForever Wrote:I'm of the same opinion somewhat. My thoughts are:

1) TEACH THE BASICS OF FOOTBALL TO ALL THE PLAYERS FROM 3rd/4th GRADE ON.
2) Dont' settle on 11-15 players whom are your best and the heck with the rest of the team, develop 'em all, play 'em all
3) By junior high, they should have strong fundamentals and know base offense and defense of the high school program
4) Junior high starts seperating them a little based on talent, but not always, so keep playing as many as you can, try them on both sides of the ball and at different positions, coaches' job is to win, yes, but also put kids in best position to succeed and contribute
5) MAKE IT FUN while young and develop a camraderie. That's what happened with Pikeville's magical run in the 80's, those kids grew up playing together and having fun.
6) High school, junior high, and elementary/little league coaches should talk and pick each other's brains.

PHSForever Wrote:Which is exactly why you have to play 'em all and develop 'em all, not just a select few. I cringe every time I see the same 2 or 3 players in every game get 95% of the carries or catches. Just sets the program up for failure down the road. Nothing wrong with going to your playmakers in big situations, but gotta give others a chance to see how they react in pressure situations, etc.

Two good posts, I agree with you completely. :Thumbs:

I understand that football is a game and you play to win, but in the younger grades, teaching should be the first priority. Kids need to be learning and reinforcing the fundamentals of football, so that they can contribute when they get up to the high school team. Playing the same couple guys may help you win, but it certainly doesn't develop the other guys on the team very well.

**PaintsvilleTigerfan** · 10-17-2011, 04:48 AM

Coaching is the biggest difference.

rojas · 10-17-2011, 05:53 AM

In some middle school programs most of the best players have either been held back at some point or started school a year late, making them 1 and in some cases 2 years older than most other kids. When in middle school there is a world of difference between 14 and 15 year olds. There is not that much difference between 18 and 19 years old.

When my son played middle school basketball there were 12 kids on the team. About 1/2 the kids, and most of the starters, were either hold-backs or started school late. By the time this group finished high school there was only 3 kids left that were still playing and only one of he hold backs. The other kids quit, became academically ineligible, or simply lost interest in sports when the younger kids caught up with them in size and physical maturity.

rustyankle · 10-17-2011, 09:44 AM

Parents holding the kids back makes them better in little league and middle school but around sophmore year they start to fall off and kids who hasnt been held back catch up and usually are the better players, that and most boys get involved with girls and get there license an job and dont play no more

Bluegrasscard · 10-17-2011, 01:04 PM

I will through another reason out there.

"Focus on a single sport mentality."

Almost all sports are going to a 'year around' mentality in both HS and now down at the MS level. It is not healthy. If overly applied, especially at MS level the kids get burned about and do not want to play.

Even if a kid shows talent and aptitude for football in MS, let them play other sports. Especially if they want to and are good at those as well. If you do not, they may get resentful of the primary sport.

hawg laig · 10-17-2011, 01:20 PM

Physical maturity plays a large part in the hig school fall off. Like others have said the smaller kids catch up by high school which leads to the other problem. Little Johnny Testrosone didn't have to learn anything in middle school because he was so much bigger and faster than the other kids, and had coaches and parents telling him how great he is, but once the others catch up, Little Johnny isn't so great any more so he quits.
Another reson is level of committment. Middle schools typically don't have an ardous off season conditioning program. When they hit high school they realize the time and effort involved when playing for a sucessful program and bail out

RoShamBo · 10-17-2011, 01:29 PM

Holding kids back can be good for the kid's development but it is not in the formula for high school success. Nobody down here except maybe middle school parents expect PC to be far and away the best high school team in the state here in a few years, but you wouldn't know it to look at their middle school. Big difference in a 13 year old and a 15 year old. Not so much between a 17 and a 19 year old.

**PHSForever** · 10-17-2011, 02:21 PM

More Cowbell Wrote:Two good posts, I agree with you completely. :Thumbs:

I understand that football is a game and you play to win, but in the younger grades, teaching should be the first priority. Kids need to be learning and reinforcing the fundamentals of football, so that they can contribute when they get up to the high school team. Playing the same couple guys may help you win, but it certainly doesn't develop the other guys on the team very well.

Exactly my point. Thank you guys, glad someone understands it is not completely about physical maturity, or holdbacks, etc. Plain and simple, if these kids aren't enjoying it and feeling like they're learning, what is their incentive to keep trying or keep playing? What does it teach a kid if you put them in for 1 minute in a game you are winning or losing 30-0? How can you tell how a kid will handle pressure if he is on the blocking dummy squad and never gets to run plays with the first team? I could go on and on about this, but the root reason remains the same: you gotta get the kids having fun and learning. It is so simple at this age if you remember the "Say, See, Do" principle. Kids are visual and learn by doing, not by standing around, hearing a concept, then being expected to remember it in the heat of the moment without ever having put it to use in practice or earlier games.