[Crossbones]

I have worked in the coal mining industry my entire life. I have held several positions upto and including the title of General Mine Foreman. Which includes running the entire underground operation. I'm certified as a Mine Foreman, Mine Inspector, EMT, MET instructor, Dust Sampling. This was a very sad and heartwrenching experience for all involved. I have seen and experienced many dangers in the mines, from the section being flooded out completely while my crew was there, I've seen methane ignight, major roof falls and I've even seen death. And too many other things to list. As Pirate Pal has stated, the blame game isn't appropriate at this time. I could spectulate what happened and more than likely get it right ( not trying to pull my own chain). I even told my wife if any at all lived it would have been the younger man. My heart breaks for these families and I can understand there outrage. But, these type of situations are not always easy to control. For example radios don't pick up underground so, you use hand signals and a wired phone line that probably wasn't to clear to start with because it was just hurried up. The miscommunication to me was understandable. The mine phones are not always clear (expecally after an explotion) and it comes out on a loud speaker outside until someone answers it. Anyone could have overheard this coversation and misunderstood out of excitement. The mine was idle throughout the holiday break and IMO (from the map they showed on tv) the sealed area was not very large and the new section had not been there long. One senerio I think is, the methane leaked through the seals and when the fireboss ( the first found dead) put the breakers in for the headdrive it caused the methane to ignight, killing him and blowing out the brattices, causing a short circuit in the ventilation. Making the miners on the section confused and not know where to go because the smoke was in like a whirlwind patern and not making it all the way outside. That is just one i'll state right now but there is a couple more reasons for the explotion. I'll try to answer any ? and try to help you all understand what happened if I can.

[KentuckyHillBilly5321]

I have worked in the coal mining industry my entire life. I have held several positions upto and including the title of General Mine Foreman. Which includes running the entire underground operation. I'm certified as a Mine Foreman, Mine Inspector, EMT, MET instructor, Dust Sampling. This was a very sad and heartwrenching experience for all involved. I have seen and experienced many dangers in the mines, from the section being flooded out completely while my crew was there, I've seen methane ignight, major roof falls and I've even seen death. And too many other things to list. As Pirate Pal has stated, the blame game isn't appropriate at this time. I could spectulate what happened and more than likely get it right ( not trying to pull my own chain). I even told my wife if any at all lived it would have been the younger man. My heart breaks for these families and I can understand there outrage. But, these type of situations are not always easy to control. For example radios don't pick up underground so, you use hand signals and a wired phone line that probably wasn't to clear to start with because it was just hurried up. The miscommunication to me was understandable. The mine phones are not always clear (expecally after an explotion) and it comes out on a loud speaker outside until someone answers it. Anyone could have overheard this coversation and misunderstood out of excitement. The mine was idle throughout the holiday break and IMO (from the map they showed on tv) the sealed area was not very large and the new section had not been there long. One senerio I think is, the methane leaked through the seals and when the fireboss ( the first found dead) put the breakers in for the headdrive it caused the methane to ignight, killing him and blowing out the brattices, causing a short circuit in the ventilation. Making the miners on the section confused and not know where to go because the smoke was in like a whirlwind patern and not making it all the way outside. That is just one i'll state right now but there is a couple more reasons for the explotion. I'll try to answer any ? and try to help you all understand what happened if I can.

Nice post, Crossbones.

Naturally, my interest continues to increase in regard to this situation.

I am curious as heck to understand things a little better.

I have a bunch of questions:
*What is your opinion of how the mining company handled the situation?
*Could the barrier that the miners used really hold back the flow of any potential gases?
*Do you think (just your opinion) that the miners intentionally shared air with the survivor--or did his age make a huge difference in whether he lived or died.

Again--I hate to even ask in a way. But I was really pulling for these guys.

[Crossbones]

Nice post, Crossbones.

Naturally, my interest continues to increase in regard to this situation.

I am curious as heck to understand things a little better.

I have a bunch of questions:
*What is your opinion of how the mining company handled the situation?
*Could the barrier that the miners used really hold back the flow of any potential gases?
*Do you think (just your opinion) that the miners intentionally shared air with the survivor--or did his age make a huge difference in whether he lived or died.

Again--I hate to even ask in a way. But I was really pulling for these guys.

1. IMO the mining company handled the situation exceptionally with the exception of not going straight to the families when news came about they were alive. I pesonally would have stopped it at that point. But I can also understand on them waiting for 100% proof.
2. Yes, the brattice cloth that we would put up would hold back any gasses with the exception of small leaks, but it would also hold back anymore clean air coming in also. I would like to know myself how big of an area they blocked off. The more area you can block off the more air you have. I personally would have blocked my entire section off, 8 breaks wide and 4 breaks deep.
3. I accually told my wife I thought they might have done that when I heard he was the one alive. As a 34yr. old myself and as a foreman I would have felt it was my responsibility to give my SCSR (self contained self rescurer) to the younger men, if it came to that. Every mine I worked at we kept extra SCSR"s on the section and in different areas of the mines.
Questions I have myself to MSHA is, I would like to have know if it was a blowing or exhausting fan.(which could answer alot in this situation)I would assume it was a blowing fan. Meaning it blew the air in the mine. If this was the case I would have reversed the fan immediately after I found the intake brattices down. By doing this it would have pulled the gases out of the mine and fresh air down the bore holes they drilled which were on the section.

[CatDawg]

I had wondered the same about the fans. Just like firefighting you can use positive pressure ventilation to input air into a structure and force smoke out another opening or you can pull the air out by reversing if you don't have another vent hole cut.

Love the info CB.

[Crossbones]

I'll try to answer the best I can with the info I have. Again this is all spectulation. I would love to have a map of the mines. It would really help answer alot of ?. I do personally believe that it took MSHA entirely too long to start underground. I do understand the travel times and the alerting everyone, but IMO it took too long. As a forman I also would think I would have realized the intake side of the mine was down, knowing there was a short circuit in the air. I may be wrong but I would have blocked off every entry except the return and went down the return side and tried to get out that way.

[Crossbones]

Another thing about this whole situation is the media made it entirely worse by their actions IMO. They have no idea what their talking about. And they also added fuel to the fire. IMO they should be kept atleast 1 mile from the family and accident scene.

[CatDawg]

Couldn't agree more with that CB. Media sucks no matter how big the incident happens to be. I love the news and want to learn as much about situations as the next but they just don't respect anyone.

[KentuckyHillBilly5321]

1. IMO the mining company handled the situation exceptionally with the exception of not going straight to the families when news came about they were alive. I pesonally would have stopped it at that point. But I can also understand on them waiting for 100% proof.
2. Yes, the brattice cloth that we would put up would hold back any gasses with the exception of small leaks, but it would also hold back anymore clean air coming in also. I would like to know myself how big of an area they blocked off. The more area you can block off the more air you have. I personally would have blocked my entire section off, 8 breaks wide and 4 breaks deep.
3. I accually told my wife I thought they might have done that when I heard he was the one alive. As a 34yr. old myself and as a foreman I would have felt it was my responsibility to give my SCSR (self contained self rescurer) to the younger men, if it came to that. Every mine I worked at we kept extra SCSR"s on the section and in different areas of the mines.
Questions I have myself to MSHA is, I would like to have know if it was a blowing or exhausting fan.(which could answer alot in this situation)I would assume it was a blowing fan. Meaning it blew the air in the mine. If this was the case I would have reversed the fan immediately after I found the intake brattices down. By doing this it would have pulled the gases out of the mine and fresh air down the bore holes they drilled which were on the section.

Like I said before--THANKS. It means a lot (to me) that you don't mind me pestering you with questions.

A couple more . .

*How big is a break?
*I understand what you mean about when the brattice would block off the gases and the clean air--
*But--if there were gases in the air, and the space would have been bigger--would it have given them a bigger percentage of breathing quality oxygen? (I know it is nearly impossible to answer this). I could understand that more area means more possible air, but wouldn't it be relational? (I can already see where it wouldn't be--depending on ventalation, etc).
*As far as the brattice goes--does it seal around the mine walls, floor, ceiling? Or is it like the morons on TV say (like a curtain).

On a different note--how do you mine coal in a mine like this? Is it done by hand (sorry if that sounds stupid) or machinery?

Thanks again for answering my questions. I hate to sound cliched--but these as soon as this deal happened--I took it to heart (which is not really like me). It ****es me off that they passed--but I think all of us (especially guys who have to work with the moron "business" types) would love to work next to people that care more about you than their self.

[thetribe]

Watched this story develop on the news.
All I can say is that it broke my heart.
My dad has worked in the coalmines for probably 30 years now and I live day to day with situations like that weighing on my mind.
My heart goes out to the families that found out that they weren't the lucky ones.
I'm sure the whole community deserves to be in our thoughts and prayers.
Glad that one man's life was changed by this ordeal and he made it out alive. Wish a speedy and full recovery for him.

[Crossbones]

Like I said before--THANKS. It means a lot (to me) that you don't mind me pestering you with questions.

A couple more . .

*How big is a break?
*I understand what you mean about when the brattice would block off the gases and the clean air--
*But--if there were gases in the air, and the space would have been bigger--would it have given them a bigger percentage of breathing quality oxygen? (I know it is nearly impossible to answer this). I could understand that more area means more possible air, but wouldn't it be relational? (I can already see where it wouldn't be--depending on ventalation, etc).
*As far as the brattice goes--does it seal around the mine walls, floor, ceiling? Or is it like the morons on TV say (like a curtain).

On a different note--how do you mine coal in a mine like this? Is it done by hand (sorry if that sounds stupid) or machinery?

Thanks again for answering my questions. I hate to sound cliched--but these as soon as this deal happened--I took it to heart (which is not really like me). It ****es me off that they passed--but I think all of us (especially guys who have to work with the moron "business" types) would love to work next to people that care more about you than their self.

Sorry I didn't answer faster, been out with the family. I don't care in the least to answer ?, so ask away. I'll try to answer the best I can.
1. A break is refered to the block of coal that is left to hold up the top it is usually 60' x 80' and the usual area that is mined is about 20' wide and as long as you can mine it with an opening going into the next entry every 80'with the block of coal left in the middle. I'll try to post a picture later if I can find one of my old maps.
2.well the more area you have blocked off the better chances of more breathable oxegen. Giving each man a larger area of air too themselves. It would put me away from the others and I wouldn't be breathing their air. I hope I'm making sense.
3. Yes, a brattice does seal the top, floor and walls. It is made out of 8" cinder blocks and then plastered with a cement type material on both sides. It will hold and stop an amazing amount of air. Now the curtain type material does stop the air also, but is not permanent. The curtain is more than likely what they used to baracade themselves in, which probably doesn't make sense, but to build a brattice it takes alot of cinder blocks and about 20 min. to build and that takes alot of energy, meaning breathing harder. Now a curtain can be hung in about 2 min. and using no energy at all, and still achieve about the same purpose only temporary.
4. It is mined by equipment, (high tech equipement at that). Years ago it was mined by hand, but now mines use contunious miners, about $1.5 million apiece and they load the coal into a shuttle car, about $.5million apiece. Now adays coalminig is high tech, using fiberoptics, computers, remote control devices, ect. Look up Joy manufacturing on the net and it will give you an idea of the type of machinery we use.

[Crossbones]

here some pictures, if they come in.

[CatDawg]

Do you have any pic's of roof bolts always wondered how big they were?

[Crossbones]

yea, I'll get some and post them, it will take me a little time. Roof bolts range anywhere from 36"long to 12' long. Depending on how bad the top is. The norm is 48" glue bolts. Meaning you drill a hole about 49" deep put a stick of glue 45" long ( usually made by Dupont) in the hole then put the bolt in and push it up and spin it for about 15 - 20 seconds and then put pressure on hit for about 8 seconds, then move over and repeat process. Usually four bolts go in a row on 4'x 4' centers. There are several different types. Rope bolts being one of them, they are like a 1" round braided wire rangeing anywhere from 6'long to 12' long. They will make you sweat expecially when drawrock is ralling all around you. I'll try to post pictures.

[Crossbones]

These pictures show roofbolter operators drilling holes and putting up bolts.

[thetribe]

Roofbolts are pretty dang big IMO.

We used one as a pole to chain a dog to one time when we had company...

My daddy is a roof bolt operator.

[Crossbones]

Roofbolts are pretty dang big IMO.

We used one as a pole to chain a dog to one time when we had company...

My daddy is a roof bolt operator.

He has a tough job. Done it for about 3 years myself. I prefer running the miner. Believe it or not but the Mine Foreman job was the most physically and mentally demanding job I ever had.

[thetribe]

Yea he gets pretty stressed out over work and the men that he works with.
He's in good shape for his age but he does have a physically demanding job.

[Crossbones]

You can say that again. But to tell you the truth it would be an understatement.

[thetribe]

I don't really ask questions about it, I really don't know all the workings of a mines. Dad does alot of stuff underground. He has ran the bugey (sp?), roof bolt operator, worked a miner?, belt?, etc.

[thetribe]

The miners had left a note that was found. It read:

"Tell all I see them on other side, I love you, it wasn't bad, we just went to sleep."

Broke my heart. Cried. This whole story really hit me hard and the note absolutely tore me up.

[BallaBaby]

I think the note tore everyone up.

[KentuckyHillBilly5321]

Crossbones--thanks again.

I appreciate the feedback.

I spent a lot of time on the Joy website last night. The equipment is utterly amazing--and it kills me even more that people (even me before last night) think that mining is just a manual labor type of job.

Again--thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.

[thetribe]

McCloy is still in critical condition but seems to be recovering.

[sf_football]

thats horribal they told them that they were all alive but they were all dead but one

[BallaBaby]

McCloy is still in critical condition but seems to be recovering.

They were suppose to be flying him back to West Virginia tonight. They say that his lungs are better, and he done good with the oxygen chamber.

[CatDawg]

These pictures show roofbolter operators drilling holes and putting up bolts.

Thanks for the pics.

I'm lucky enough to work on the coal purchase and transloading side of the business.

[Crossbones]

Crossbones--thanks again.

I appreciate the feedback.

I spent a lot of time on the Joy website last night. The equipment is utterly amazing--and it kills me even more that people (even me before last night) think that mining is just a manual labor type of job.

Again--thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.

Too be honest, I used to think the same thing, but I took Mining Engineering in college and got a better idea of it. The equipement you seen on the site is just the tip of the iceberg. It is really a very technical job and it takes alot of training and experience. If you have anymore ?, just ask away.

[Crossbones]

Thanks for the pics.

I'm lucky enough to work on the coal purchase and transloading side of the business.

I'll try to post some more when I get time. I accually have some of me and my crew underground running the equipement and doing our jobs. Great digital quality prints. But I better not post them.

[CatDawg]

Now do you work for Joy or do you happen to be at another mine?

[Crossbones]

Now do you work for Joy or do you happen to be at another mine?

Accually, I'm disabled. I hurt my back (lower back, herniated two disc at the same time) two years ago. I was told I couldn't lift over 10#, and couldn't go back to work. I really miss it (believe it or not). I enjoyed working in the mines and made alot of money to boot.:link: