[Hoot Gibson]

But you are making an arguement of what if's. Belfry would certainly have their titles. They were in AA when they won their titles. Highlands was in AAA and JC still would not have beatin Boyle during their run. To say that JC would "almost certainly" have a title or two just because they had to play Highlands is well kinda funny. What if Louisville Central didn't play in AAA the last few years, then Belfry would "almost certainly" have a few more titles. :eyeroll: Makes you roll your eyes a little doesn't it. I'm not even arguing the point of who has the best program and what not because JC most certainly belongs near the top of the list for an Eastern Ky team. But the points you make are invalid.

This thread is about the best team in eastern Kentucky, which in my opinion will be decided when JC travels to Belfry. My point is this - Johnson Central has won 3 of its last 4 meetings with Belfry and last year's very young Golden Eagles team lost by a slim 17-12 margin. Belfry has a great program, but since Matney arrived at JC, the series has been very competitive and there have been few blowouts by either team.

Belfry fans can make the claim that they have the best football program in eastern Kentucky if they want, but the facts do not support the notion that their program is on an entirely different level than Johnson Central's program - and that is exactly the claim that oneijoe made. Whichever team wins in a few weeks, the game between JC and Belfry should be a great one.

As good as Johnson Central's and Belfry's programs are, nobody should take them for granted. Any good program is one bad hire away from mediocrity. When the days come that Matney and Haywood retire, let's hope that both schools choose their successors wisely.

[Hoot Gibson]

If by PTA you mean points, than i think you are crazy friend.
First off, Belfry already played HC and didnt beat them by 21, and I promise you Pulaski County is just as good, if not better than Belfry and even or better than JC.

I can promise you this, Belfry and Johnson Central are both very young teams with two of the top coaches in the state. No two teams will improve more between the opening and final games of any season. Many people believe that this is Johnson Central's best team ever, and "ever" includes a team that missed an opportunity to beat eventual state champ Highlands when a pass was dropped in the end zone with time running out.

Johnson Central will return a very strong team next season and I am sure that Coach Matney would love to challenge them early with a good team like Pulaski County.

[The_Rock]

Pulaski County is finesse football team. Belfry would run it down their throats and make them like it.

[kyfun]

I am sure Jim Matney needs a few games for the next few years! Be careful for which you ask for my friend!

AY YOU BETCHA PC will play. Got to be hard for JC to find the teams on their schedule. Have Matney gives us a call.

[Cat Daddy]

Currently the best football program in the mountains is Belfry. The best team in the mountians "this year" is Johnson Central. I have watched them play, and they are 2 tds better than any one else in the mountains, including Belfry. This may be the year they get over the "Highlands Hump", and bring home a state title. Good luck to both teams.

[E's Army]

Like to see both bring home big trophies from Bowling Green.

[HDE]

^
All trolling aside, im in complete agreement!
I called that in the preseason!

Only one i was dead wrong about was Harlan County.

So, you're officially off the Harlan County bandwagon and now have Pulaski County as the clear-cut favorite in Region 4?

[blueman44]

hazard

[oneijoe]

This thread is about the best team in eastern Kentucky, which in my opinion will be decided when JC travels to Belfry. My point is this - Johnson Central has won 3 of its last 4 meetings with Belfry and last year's very young Golden Eagles team lost by a slim 17-12 margin. Belfry has a great program, but since Matney arrived at JC, the series has been very competitive and there have been few blowouts by either team.

Belfry fans can make the claim that they have the best football program in eastern Kentucky if they want, but the facts do not support the notion that their program is on an entirely different level than Johnson Central's program - and that is exactly the claim that oneijoe made. Whichever team wins in a few weeks, the game between JC and Belfry should be a great one.

As good as Johnson Central's and Belfry's programs are, nobody should take them for granted. Any good program is one bad hire away from mediocrity. When the days come that Matney and Haywood retire, let's hope that both schools choose their successors wisely.

Hoot... if you go back and read my original post, you'll see I didn't aim my answer toward the original question of this thread but qualified my own particular viewpoint.

While I agree Johnson Central is certainly heading toward that "Friday Night Lights" kind of program (with everything that entails), I personally don't think JC has enough seasons behind them at that level to be considered as Belfry's equal. 10-12 years simply isn't enough time.

And no, having a State Title in the trophy case isn't what it's about. It's about all the other things I mentioned consistantly over an extended period of years.

[Ballbuster]

Jc.

[Hoot Gibson]

Hoot... if you go back and read my original post, you'll see I didn't aim my answer toward the original question of this thread but qualified my own particular viewpoint.

While I agree Johnson Central is certainly heading toward that "Friday Night Lights" kind of program (with everything that entails), I personally don't think JC has enough seasons behind them at that level to be considered as Belfry's equal. 10-12 years simply isn't enough time.

And no, having a State Title in the trophy case isn't what it's about. It's about all the other things I mentioned consistantly over an extended period of years.

Four years is an eternity in high school football. It is plenty of time for a great coach to turn a 1-9 team into a 10-0 state title contender. One year is time enough for a bad coach to take a 10-0 team and turn the program into one characterized by poorly motivated players, infighting, finger pointing and field a team posting an 0-10 record.

Its great that Belfry has managed to avoid tough times for a longer period that most schools have, but it does not take a dozen years to take a high school football program from doormat status to one of the best in the state. Dudley Hilton did it at Bourbon County. Belfry has a great program because of Coach Haywood. Whether Belfry has a great program one year after Coach Haywood retires will depend on how good of a job the Belfry administration does in choosing his successor.

You can talk about decades long (or 12 years) tradition all you want, but what matters is hiring a great head coach and allowing him to do his thing. That is all that separates great football programs from bad football programs.

Does anybody doubt that if any school in eastern Kentucky turned its football program over to Matney, Haywood, Hilton, or Dale Mueller, that they would have a top tier football program within no more than 2 or 3 years? Or that if any program, no matter how great, turns its program over to a mediocre head coach, that the program will cease to be an elite one?

Great football programs are not built by constantly looking in the rear view mirror.

Constant focus on what needs to be done today to continuously improve the team and to ensure future success is what makes a football program great. Belfry has that focus and so does Johnson Central. Lose that focus on continuous improvement, and any great program will immediately begin to decline. Too many Kentucky teams enter each season expecting to be unsuccessful because of past failure. Belfry and JC fans should be thankful that their teams are among the lucky few who expect success every season.

[ataclance]

I'd have to say JC or PC if you consider them EKY. Belfry would get vote as well as Hazard. Don't sleep on Harlan Co, TL will have them playoff ready.

[EKUAlum05]

Hoot...4 years can take a team from doormat to state title contender...but at the same time look at programs like Elizabethtown, Mercer County, LCA, Middlesboro, and Allen County-Scottsville.

Each of these programs had a single crop of players who came up from Freshman to Senior that led them from either doormat status or at best mediocre status to a State Final appearance. Where did they go the years immediately following that class that graduated?

A Coach is a massive part of maintaining success... unequivocally I agree...but there is another aspect that is huge in a program turning around or sustaining success...something that Johnson Central has benefited from almost as much as having Matney... and that is the strength of your feeder system. That's why some programs can bounce back quickly, if not instantly, after coaching change (ex: Highlands, Boyle County, LexCath) and why some strong programs have to start from scratch (ex: Breathitt County, Lawrence County).

Who would be better equipped to sustain success the next 3-4 years following an abrupt coaching change immediately?

Belfry with potentially back to back Middle School State Championship teams the past two years

or

Cadlwell County with a very talented crop of Juniors, but a very limited crop of Freshman or Middle Schoolers

[Eagle84]

funny

[E's Army]

Bell is not having a great year but when best programs are discussed they have to be part of the discussion. Corbin is another traditional program with decades of success. Next years team will be the Redhounds best in many years and they are not slouches this year. They have managed to win games under several coaches. They are not a team who has a run under a good coach and then falls back into the shadows.

[Pulp Fiction]

"The best" title in anything, not just sports, is usually followed by championships won.

With that said, there are some great programs in Eastern Ky., but very few have won a state football title.

Belfry, Pikeville, Bell Co., Breathitt Co., Middlesboro and Hazard (there are probably some I am missing) are teams that come to mind that I know have won a state title.

Prestonsburg, Rockcastle Co. & Paintsville (there are probably some I am missing) all have state runners-up trophies.

Teams like Johnson Central have never won an actual state title, but they have played either Cov. Cath. or Highlands about 5-6 times recently in playoff games that were considered "the true state championship game".

[E's Army]

Add Corbin to your list of schools with a state championship.

[Spirit100]

So 77 posts later and the consensus seems to be JC & Belfry, accurate or not?

[Crossbones]

I have no problem saying JC is the "best team" in eastern Ky.. this year. They very well may be. I just have a problem with some that are using the excuse of not having titles because of who they have to play. Saying that they have a better program as a whole than Belfry at this givin time. I probably worded that wrong and really don't know how to word it correctly. JC's program has grown leaps and bounds in Matney's era and I'm surre will continue to grow. And I hope it does. I see alot of eastern Ky programs moving in the right direction. I'm glad to see for one. For us to be able to compete with teams like Highlands, Mayfields and teams of like. We have to copy them in a since. Build good feeder programs and incourage the kids to love the game again more than they love the computers.

[ballboy]

1. Belfry
2. Johnson Central
3. Wayne County
4. Pulaski County
5. Harlan county

[ballboy]

Williamsburg is not in the top 10

[Hoot Gibson]

Hoot...4 years can take a team from doormat to state title contender...but at the same time look at programs like Elizabethtown, Mercer County, LCA, Middlesboro, and Allen County-Scottsville.

Each of these programs had a single crop of players who came up from Freshman to Senior that led them from either doormat status or at best mediocre status to a State Final appearance. Where did they go the years immediately following that class that graduated?

A Coach is a massive part of maintaining success... unequivocally I agree...but there is another aspect that is huge in a program turning around or sustaining success...something that Johnson Central has benefited from almost as much as having Matney... and that is the strength of your feeder system. That's why some programs can bounce back quickly, if not instantly, after coaching change (ex: Highlands, Boyle County, LexCath) and why some strong programs have to start from scratch (ex: Breathitt County, Lawrence County).

Who would be better equipped to sustain success the next 3-4 years following an abrupt coaching change immediately?

Belfry with potentially back to back Middle School State Championship teams the past two years

or

Cadlwell County with a very talented crop of Juniors, but a very limited crop of Freshman or Middle Schoolers

Johnson Central's feeder system has been very strong ever since JCMS was built. It was strong before, during, and after the 3-year skid that saw JC win 5 games in between Bill Musick's departure and Matney's arrival. The only difference between JC's teams during that period and the team before and after those years was its head coach.

I witnessed a similar one-year turnaround at Greenwood Community High School in Indiana when they hired one of the top coaches in the state, Rick Wimmer. Coach Wimmer graciously allowed my two sons to work out with the team over the summer following Musick's retirement. Based on the talent that they saw there and what they knew JC was returning, both boys decided that Greenwood would struggle and JC would have another great year. Greenwood went undefeated and made a deep playoff run and JC won 2 games. Wimmer has since won a 5A state title at Fishers, competing in the same class that includes Warren Central, Ben Davis, Penn, Carmel, Center Grove, etc.

I am convinced that there is absolutely nothing that contributes more to the success of a football program than having the right man at the helm. Fans who think that there is something magic about their team's long term success aside from the talent of their head coach are just fooling themselves. The raw talent differential among schools with similar enrollment is not statistically significant. I agree that in the case of small 1A schools, the difference in talent between classes can result in "up" and "down" years, but consistency in results increases in proportion to enrollment and participation.

Matney produced some outstanding teams at Sheldon Clark without the benefit of a very good feeder system, IMO. He overcame that hurdle in part by encouraging heavy participation in the school's wrestling program, a practice that followed him to JC. A strong feeder system is important, but more often than not it is the product of a strong head coach.

Bill Musick was very active in building JC's system at the middle school, along with the fine coaches on the JCMS staff. However, a great coach can turn a program around in a hurry, even with a weak feeder system. Their first few teams may not go deep in the playoffs but they will consistently beat poorly coached teams with much better talent.

[EKUAlum05]

Matney produced some outstanding teams at Sheldon Clark without the benefit of a very good feeder system, IMO. He overcame that hurdle in part by encouraging heavy participation in the school's wrestling program, a practice that followed him to JC. A strong feeder system is important, but more often than not it is the product of a strong head coach.

Bill Musick was very active in building JC's system at the middle school, along with the fine coaches on the JCMS staff. However, a great coach can turn a program around in a hurry, even with a weak feeder system. Their first few teams may not go deep in the playoffs but they will consistently beat poorly coached teams with much better talent.

And this is back to the point I was making... certainly the coach is a major factor... but what is the difference in why Matney has been able to make JC title contender so quickly, as opposed to Sheldon Clark?

The coach (and subsequently the coaching stability) is the paramount factor... but that alone is rarely enough to spearhead a program's rapid success, or in the case of a coaching change, the ability to sustain success. The X factor, and the factor that most influences time, is the talent pool and feeder system at his disposal. Dudley Hilton immediately won at Bourbon because he had the talent to win... The Coach at NewCath immediately won a State Title because he had the talent to win... Coach Moore is getting railroaded at Breathitt County because he does not have the talent to win.

At JC it took less time for Matney to have the talent and pieces he needed to mold a team.. at SC he never could quite get the crop he needed... after multiple years he started to see some of the fruits of his labor but it took all those years before his talent pool rose to the level he needed.

That's why I specifically said "A Coach is a massive part of maintaining success... unequivocally I agree...but there is another aspect that is huge in a program turning around or sustaining success...something that Johnson Central has benefited from almost as much as having Matney" ...and why I balked at the notion that even if Haywood left that Belfry would certainly see a decline.

[Hoot Gibson]

I have no problem saying JC is the "best team" in eastern Ky.. this year. They very well may be. I just have a problem with some that are using the excuse of not having titles because of who they have to play. Saying that they have a better program as a whole than Belfry at this givin time. I probably worded that wrong and really don't know how to word it correctly. JC's program has grown leaps and bounds in Matney's era and I'm surre will continue to grow. And I hope it does. I see alot of eastern Ky programs moving in the right direction. I'm glad to see for one. For us to be able to compete with teams like Highlands, Mayfields and teams of like. We have to copy them in a since. Build good feeder programs and incourage the kids to love the game again more than they love the computers.

My only objection to your post was the implication that Belfry is in a class by itself. If I were ranking "programs," I would place Belfry at the top spot among eastern Kentucky programs myself. State titles are hard to argue with, but a school can have a great program without having a state title on the shelf.

As for this year's teams, I don't think anybody can say for sure who is better until JC and Belfry meet each other on the field. Both teams are very young and both teams have a history of improving by leaps and bounds from the first to the last regular season game. I remember several seasons in the pre-Matney era where JC "won" scrimmages. By the end of some of those seasons, I was glad that Belfry was not on the schedule.

When a very long bus ride is involved, the value of having a common opponent like Harlan Co. is questionable. I remember the season in which JC totally dominated Central and then lost to Belfry. Central won a state title a few weeks later.

[Crossbones]

I actually was not trying to word it as Belfry being leaps and bounds better. That was not my intent.

[Hoot Gibson]

I actually was not trying to word it as Belfry being leaps and bounds better. That was not my intent.

:Thumbs: Nor did I mean to make a big deal out of your wording. I have admired Belfry's program for many years. To me, the best measure of a coach and his staff is how much his team improves from their first game to their last and Belfry has always ranked near the top in that category.

[EKUAlum05]

Good dialogue guys!

[PocoLegend]

JC all day

[99PIRATEFAN]

belfry!!!!!!!

[pugsley79]

Belfry. Started all this talk last year and the Pirates went to Johnson Central and whopped up on Them. BELFRY BELFRY BELFRY!!!!