[awsumbill_68]

I went thru the DQ list for 10-11 and after about half I gave up counting. I had 74 football, 251 soccer, 56 baseball, 44 basketball. Soccer does include girls but it appears to be the major problem.

I dont normally post of the football page because Im primarily a soccer fan but i found this subject very interesting. I feel your pain about kids being dq'd for 2 games and it being such a big deal because of the length of season compared to soccer and basketball. KHSAA has thrown all commonsense out on this subject. It used to be dq's were based on the severity of the dq. If you understand the rules of soccer and many of you do I'm sure, you can understand why soccer has so many players on the DQ list. I saw a player red carded this year for a simple foul, soley for being the last defender and in the refs opinion he took a goal scoring oppurtunity away from the opposing team. This is the equivalent of a defensive pass interference call in football. Can anyone imagine any football player being DQ'd for two games for a pass interference call? Happens in soccer. Two yellow cards get you D'd for two games, this is the equivalency of fouling out in basketball, can you imagine a basketball player having to sit out two games for fouling out? happens in soccer. I'm not going to tell you there is never any chippiness on the field...it too is a contact sport it happens. The rules need to be upped for fighting and clear conduct condusive to starting fights...but they need to put commonsense back into who and how long they must sit out. :Cheerlead

[Stardust]

The suspension list on KHSAA represents number from both the 2010 and 2011 seasons, so this is two years of data.

628 total ejections

152 Coach ejections (since this is not about coaches, this leaves 676 Player ejections)

244 - Fighting ejections
76 - Automatic Rules ejections (example: not sliding into a base)
1 - Spitting

That's 321 ejections with no objectivity of the umpire, referee or officials judgement, these are legit ejections with no bias

I have no clue what a Red Card is in soccer or how you get one, but that is virtually all of the rest of the ejections.

So, I still ask the question of whether this is a problem in the sports where everyone thinks that a player will lose 20% of their season? In football, Players were ejected 206 times for fighting! Is it not justified to lose your season for not controlling your temper! A lot of schools have zero tolerance in their athletes handbook for fighting, thus, my guess is that the suspension did not affect those kids at all, because they were expelled from the sport all-together

[fancyfeet]

anyone know what o/r, s/r and c/r mean on the far right side of the DQ report. Then there are x in the boxs under them

[laker20]

anyone know what o/r, s/r and c/r mean on the far right side of the DQ report. Then there are x in the boxs under them

Probably: Outstanding, Served, and Current. (Just a guess)

[willseeuntheHOUSE]

The suspension list on KHSAA represents number from both the 2010 and 2011 seasons, so this is two years of data.

628 total ejections

152 Coach ejections (since this is not about coaches, this leaves 676 Player ejections)

244 - Fighting ejections
76 - Automatic Rules ejections (example: not sliding into a base)
1 - Spitting

That's 321 ejections with no objectivity of the umpire, referee or officials judgement, these are legit ejections with no bias

I have no clue what a Red Card is in soccer or how you get one, but that is virtually all of the rest of the ejections.

So, I still ask the question of whether this is a problem in the sports where everyone thinks that a player will lose 20% of their season? In football, Players were ejected 206 times for fighting! Is it not justified to lose your season for not controlling your temper! A lot of schools have zero tolerance in their athletes handbook for fighting, thus, my guess is that the suspension did not affect those kids at all, because they were expelled from the sport all-together

What constitutes a fight ejection?? How many were for throwing punches or just pushing or shoving ? And how many times was the wrong player ejected? Had to be some judgement and maybe some bias. Guess I'm old fashioned but" NO!" there are many times I would not make a kid lose his season for what someone chooses to term a fight! A lot of judgement is involved in terming a incident a "fight".

[Tica]

In football, the ultimate irony is you can throw a little chicken punch and get a two game suspension, yet you can knowingly clip or chop an ACL - causing a far more serious injury - and the penalty is 15 yards.

[Football1]

The suspension list on KHSAA represents number from both the 2010 and 2011 seasons, so this is two years of data.

628 total ejections

152 Coach ejections (since this is not about coaches, this leaves 676 Player ejections)

244 - Fighting ejections
76 - Automatic Rules ejections (example: not sliding into a base)
1 - Spitting

That's 321 ejections with no objectivity of the umpire, referee or officials judgement, these are legit ejections with no bias

I have no clue what a Red Card is in soccer or how you get one, but that is virtually all of the rest of the ejections.

So, I still ask the question of whether this is a problem in the sports where everyone thinks that a player will lose 20% of their season? In football, Players were ejected 206 times for fighting! Is it not justified to lose your season for not controlling your temper! A lot of schools have zero tolerance in their athletes handbook for fighting, thus, my guess is that the suspension did not affect those kids at all, because they were expelled from the sport all-together

Your point is perfect - when a fight occurs the penalty should be stiff - 2 games is very stiff and likely fitting for those actions. THAT IS NOT the problem here. What we have today is an environment where kids compete in an aggressive sport with NO CONSISTENCY around what could cost them 2 games. And the hard reality is it is unlikely that consistency will ever be achieved. As such, it makes sense to NOT have a rule in place that automatically punishes every person ejected with the assumption that they committed the worst offense. There are already several (and 1 is too many) situations where players have lost 2 games for what was clearly less than a "fight" by even the most liberal definitions.

The issue of deterring a player is worth considering as well. I would challenge anyone to find a single player who would honestly say the reason he chose, in the heat of battle, not to punch the jerk who got a way with gouging his eyes or hitting him between the legs etc is "I just remembered the 2 game suspension thing"; instead its because his coach has built a culture of discipline the teaches to get your revenge legally between the whistles. So if deterrence is not achieved why have a rule that clearly is taking games away from kids who do not deserve it? The answer to that is to change this foolish rule immediately.

[Stardust]

I respectfully disagree still. In football, you have a meeting of the referees before ejections are made. I can see one bad egg, but I just don't buy that the poor integrity lf one will be supported by all, thus, before the ejection is made others have weighed in on it. Again, I support this if it prevents just a single fight next season!

[Football1]

I respectfully disagree still. In football, you have a meeting of the referees before ejections are made. I can see one bad egg, but I just don't buy that the poor integrity lf one will be supported by all, thus, before the ejection is made others have weighed in on it. Again, I support this if it prevents just a single fight next season!

I respect your opinion and see why you hold it. I stand firmly on my own view that this rule does far more to hurt the game than help it. This rule cost the Central player 2 games and it was not a fight - refs did not huddle by the way as the White hat made the call on his own - this player is an All State college recruit who up until that game in 4 years of starting for Central had never so much as had a 15 yard penalty. This suspension may well have cost him a scholarship as now he has had to explain that to college coaches and to make matters worse it was happened off camera on 3 different films we reviewed. It cost him the memories of playing 2 games in his senior season with guys that he has been playing with since grade school. It cost him too much. I'm all for rules but when the rule blindly applies to situations where it should NEVER have been applicable you get the debacle that unfolded here. And BTW - this is only one case of others that are very similiar. I will post a link.

I detest players that show low character on the field and strongly advocate those players face stern punishment. But it is asinine to leave such a huge punishment in the hands of an official who gets to see 2 seconds of a kids behavior and who has not been provided ANY guidelines for what a fight really is. This game is played by the kids on the field and rules should advocate for them not put their very future in jeopardy as this one does. I assure you and anyone who will listen that this rule has one very vociferous opponent who will continue to contact those who can affect this until it is modified.

[Football1]

Here is the article that was posted about this and the comment below in response to it. As you can plainly see there are plenty of cases where this rule is costing kids games where it CLEARLY should not. We can sit back and cross our arms and say "well that is what the dumb ass gets" or we can take the action needed to modify this foolish rule. Not hard to figure where I stand on that one...

http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/129339503.html

Posted by: Damien Location: Louisville on Sep 15, 2011 at 11:35 AM

KHSSA is using this as a way to avoid accountability. The latest example is the suspension of a player at JTown. There was NO FIGHT. The referee stated this player threw a punch when he did not. We went back and reviewed the film. No punch was ever thrown and it was a simple move getting the player out of his way. There was no altercation with the other player but the referee deemed the move a "punch" and ejected this boy from the game. The footage was taken to KHSSA, but they REFUSED to look at the tape saying, "It's up the ref's and we will not dispute their interpretation." Well there you go. This boy was denied due process and the board woefully hung their heads and gave complete authority to a ref who clearly had it out for this boy. BTW this player is one of the top ranked athletes in the state. Perhaps the ref had a grudge for that reason? Corruption reigns.

[Stardust]

Here is the article that was posted about this and the comment below in response to it. As you can plainly see there are plenty of cases where this rule is costing kids games where it CLEARLY should not. We can sit back and cross our arms and say "well that is what the dumb ass gets" or we can take the action needed to modify this foolish rule. Not hard to figure where I stand on that one...

http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/129339503.html

Posted by: Damien Location: Louisville on Sep 15, 2011 at 11:35 AM

KHSSA is using this as a way to avoid accountability. The latest example is the suspension of a player at JTown. There was NO FIGHT. The referee stated this player threw a punch when he did not. We went back and reviewed the film. No punch was ever thrown and it was a simple move getting the player out of his way. There was no altercation with the other player but the referee deemed the move a "punch" and ejected this boy from the game. The footage was taken to KHSSA, but they REFUSED to look at the tape saying, "It's up the ref's and we will not dispute their interpretation." Well there you go. This boy was denied due process and the board woefully hung their heads and gave complete authority to a ref who clearly had it out for this boy. BTW this player is one of the top ranked athletes in the state. Perhaps the ref had a grudge for that reason? Corruption reigns.

Two things - 1. KHSAA did not make this rule! 2. The fight that started in front of me (within 10 yards) 2 years ago with Campbell County & Clark County resulted in Bluegrasspreps thread getting bombarded by Camel fans stating that our player did not start the fight:dontthink

[willseeuntheHOUSE]

yes, Khsaa did make the rule because Khsaa is the association of schools. The governing body dictated there was a problem (as noted on thread due to soccer this may have been overblown) and may have falsely influenced the Khsaa association of athletic directors with these inflated numbers (due to soccer ) into believing a drastic problem was developing. I would like to personally see how the so called elevated numbers were presented to the athletic directors . I would also like to see a study done with only the ejections from the three major sports compared for the last 20 years while adjusting for the number of games and total athletes. Would be interesting to see if the governing board was completely straight forward with the athletic directors without slanting the numbers in a favorable way to get the results they wanted( as is done so frequently these days in political situations).

[willseeuntheHOUSE]

yes, Khsaa did make the rule because Khsaa is the association of schools. The governing body dictated there was a problem (as noted on thread due to soccer this may have been overblown) and may have falsely influenced the Khsaa association of athletic directors with these inflated numbers (due to soccer ) into believing a drastic problem was developing. I would like to personally see how the so called elevated numbers were presented to the athletic directors . I would also like to see a study done with only the ejections from the three major sports compared for the last 20 years while adjusting for the number of games and total athletes. Would be interesting to see if the governing board was completely straight forward with the athletic directors without slanting the numbers in a favorable way to get the results they wanted( as is done so frequently these days in political situations).

Would also like to see a list of the referees that made ejections and how many for each referee to see if there is a pattern. This seems the very least that Khsaa should furnish to the public. Could do this without releasing the names of the refs to the public.

[Stardust]

yes, Khsaa did make the rule because Khsaa is the association of schools. The governing body dictated there was a problem (as noted on thread due to soccer this may have been overblown) and may have falsely influenced the Khsaa association of athletic directors with these inflated numbers (due to soccer ) into believing a drastic problem was developing. I would like to personally see how the so called elevated numbers were presented to the athletic directors . I would also like to see a study done with only the ejections from the three major sports compared for the last 20 years while adjusting for the number of games and total athletes. Would be interesting to see if the governing board was completely straight forward with the athletic directors without slanting the numbers in a favorable way to get the results they wanted( as is done so frequently these days in political situations).

LOL, did you see the total number of schools represented in the ejections? Do not think that those schools did their investigations of the ejections themselves? I sure know my school does. It's not a conspiracy.

[Jeepman]

First, I appreciate your compliment.

I've thought about this a great deal, and the problem is you can't rely on all Coaches, Principals, or ADs to deal with this evenly from team to team. The fact that the players knows what the rule is, should be good enough to deter them from the action given the severity of the potential punishment. In fact, the punishment is so severe that it's easy to see that the intention is not to punish the player for the action, but to deter the player from the action.

I think the real looser in all of this is the officials who have to make these decisions in the heat of the moment as well. My biggest concern with the rule is that the severity of penalty is so great, that officials may begin to allow more to slide in fear of costing a player 20+% of their season.

To me, in the game of football, winning and loosing is secondary to sportsmanship, teamwork and discipline. A great deal of what's wrong in the US can be attributed to leniency in the punishments handed out for wrong doings. I'm glad that the KHSAA is setting a better example.

I expect our players to represent the school, their parents, and their teammates in a respectable manner. Every time Nick Britt scores a TD, he walks the ball of to the ref and jogs off the field. No dancing, no diving across the goal line backwards, no excessive celebration. I often find myself more impressed by the humbleness and sportsmanship he displays than the score itself.

Very well said. I am actually shocked at the number of posters that appear to be so liberal. We all know the rules in football for stupidity. Why some feel so strongly to lesson the penalty for bad behavior is beyond me.

[willseeuntheHOUSE]

LOL, did you see the total number of schools represented in the ejections? Do not think that those schools did their investigations of the ejections themselves? I sure know my school does. It's not a conspiracy.

Guess i'm behind times but where would one get the information from other schools of their ejections. I would have thought the info would flow to the Khsaa and then the athletic directors got their info from them. Our school does not have the time or resources to check on other schools ejections. Of course our school would do their own investigations of their ejections, but where else other than Khsaa could one get the totals. Would still like to see how the information was presented. Governing body wanted this ......guess i may have assumed to much to think they would have slanted the info in their favor....NOT LOL people never slant info in their favor LOL obviously politicians never would do that .....just listen to Beshears and Williams debate.

[Stardust]

Guess i'm behind times but where would one get the information from other schools of their ejections. I would have thought the info would flow to the Khsaa and then the athletic directors got their info from them. Our school does not have the time or resources to check on other schools ejections. Of course our school would do their own investigations of their ejections, but where else other than Khsaa could one get the totals. Would still like to see how the information was presented. Governing body wanted this ......guess i may have assumed to much to think they would have slanted the info in their favor....NOT LOL people never slant info in their favor LOL obviously politicians never would do that .....just listen to Beshears and Williams debate.

So do you not think that the schools that had kids ejected did not look into their own incidents? If there was this widespread issue of unfair ejections, then I'm possitive that those AD's would not have voted in favor just based on the ejections of their own kids, not caring at all about the kids from the other schools. They would have made the decision on a yea/nay vote on their own issues, especially if they thought their kids had been unjustly disqualified.

[Football1]

Very well said. I am actually shocked at the number of posters that appear to be so liberal. We all know the rules in football for stupidity. Why some feel so strongly to lesson the penalty for bad behavior is beyond me.

Let me try to be crystal clear on this. I am in no way in favor of less punishment for bad behavior. I am, on the other hand, in every way a fan of not imposing the punishment for bad behavior on behavior that is a less than bad. Real simple. Define bad behavior and ensure it is punished firmly. BUT DO NOT GIVE OFFICIALS the right to take 20% of a kids season for anything less than behavior that is TRULY bad.

That is the height of conservatism. To falsely and overly empower authority to take your money or your freedom is the definition of liberalism. This rule is the epitome of the liberal think pattern. "Those people could never be trusted to do what is right with their money so let's take it and figure that out for them..." To whit, "Those principals, coaches, and ADs could never figure out and could not be trusted to discipline their players and correct behavior, so let's do it for them." I disagree with most things on the liberal agenda and this is a shining example of that philosophy in play and doing damage as usual.

[Tica]

Also - is everybody treated the same? Last year, if memory serves me correctly, in November there was a huge bench-emptying fight between Louisville Central and Moore during the playoffs. Moore ended up forfeiting the game. There were multiple ejections. One report said all but 5 Moore players were ejected. Not sure if any Central players were but I find it hard to see how the Moore players could have fought amongst themselves. However - looking at the DQ list, I see no mention of any Moore or Central football players being suspended from that fight. I find that extremely curious.

Article on fight.

http://www.highschoolsports.net/local/Lo...0311150096

[Football1]

Also - is everybody treated the same? Last year, if memory serves me correctly, in November there was a huge bench-emptying fight between Louisville Central and Moore during the playoffs. Moore ended up forfeiting the game. There were multiple ejections. One report said all but 5 Moore players were ejected. Not sure if any Central players were but I find it hard to see how the Moore players could have fought amongst themselves. However - looking at the DQ list, I see no mention of any Moore or Central football players being suspended from that fight. I find that extremely curious.

Article on fight.

http://www.highschoolsports.net/local/Lo...0311150096

Wow. What a great case in point. Bench clearing brawl = no suspensions. Player shoves overachiever blocking after whistle off him = 2 games of senior season - gone.

This is why the rule is foolish. It cannot be enforced equally and as such should not exist. Unless and until a clear definition of what should be defined as worthy of 2 games is provided and enforced to officials - it is a debacle.

[offside]

deleted.

[Tica]

Why have rules if they are not applied uniformly. How are 20+ players ejected from a brawl - yet no one is suspended. They have to have been fighting with somebody. It takes two to fight.


The clarity of the rules is not in question. It is the uneven application.

[willseeuntheHOUSE]

I believe,maybe incorrectly, we can divide student athletes into several categories. First there is the aggressive over the edge player that is your typical nut. He's the hot head that overreacts to everything but is a really aggressive player that could be an elite player if he can learn some self discipline. Maybe we all agree that this rule is the only way this kid might be helped to learn some discipline and become the player we would like to see him become. (usually though these players are beyond help). Second, there is the aggressive player that is at the edge and will go overboard in the right circumstances. He is usually the type we all like but needs a little extra discipline in order to control himself. Also a player this rule might help. (most of these players with help become your elite type players). Third, there is the aggressive player that plays under control all the time but can be provoked into protecting himself , to retaliate with a push or shove or even a slap to get the "nut" off of him. This is the player that those of us against this rule want to protect. There is a lot of actors in soccer and several in basketball that have learned to overreact to a situation to make one think an altercation has occurred when in reality nothing did. How many times did they get it wrong in professional sports until they started using the monitor. And these are professional refs. It is impossible to see these events correctly most of the time without the aid of a camera. So what is the answer? I don't know, maybe you are right Stardust:igiveup: but as for me, I will fight it with all my power because I think the wrong call is made or the wrong person is punished in the majority of the events. But I do see your point and argument . Good debate.....would like to see a poll on this thread to see how people would vote

[Football1]

Bottom line for me is this. Rules and refs are a vital part of any sport. Chaos would ensue without them. But just as chaos is undesirable on the far extreme with no refs - to overly empower them to inflict 2 game suspensions where they are not warranted is to endanger the integrity of the game. Team records, stats for the year, college scholarships, and most importantly - the experience of playing next to your friends to pursue a win - all these should only be taken from a player when he CLEARLY does something worth taking. And that is not what we have today.