[thecavemaster]

Perhaps other western democracies aren't broke. You ever think about that?

You seem to think that your entrepeneurship (which I would assume means you search around for applicable providers that serve your area for your employees) gives you standing to Lord Fauntelroy strut around saying, "Numbers Please, Numbers Please." (1) Overall philosophical shift with incentives toward a prevention-based health, focusing on the major preventables: heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, diabetes (Type 2); (2) Five percent tax on all "Cadillac" type plans. Now, I may not know numbers, I may not know about spread sheets... but I do know enough to understand that prolonged wars in Iraq (for what) and Afghanistan (toward what ultimate end) surely cannot be allowed to financially disable this country to provide the two above principles for our own people.

[jetpilot]

I think it boils down to this.

Which do you care more about. Your wallet or your neighbor.

If the answer is the former rather than the later, good luck passing through the eye of the needle.

Blessed are the meek. Blessed are the peace makers.

What would Jesus do?

So much wrong with this post, so little time.:biggrin:

Nothing is ever enough. Leave your wallet out on your porch and see how much your "neighbors" leave for you. Being charitable does not mean giving all your money to an incompetent and wasteful government. The government takes about half of your income with payroll and income taxes, most people give 10% or more to charity, then you have to pay property taxes, gasoline taxes, cigarette taxes, gasoline taxes, beer taxes, and about a thousand other taxes. So if you don't go ahead and fork over what you have left, you are going to be hanging out with the devil for all eternity? No way. Do very rich people like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates give their billions in charity to the government? Of course not, the government would waste it all. Jesus managed to do a few good deeds without the government telling him how he should do it.

Sorry DW, but I'm not going to he## for not wanting to give government more of my money when I am already taxed to death a thousand different ways.

[Mr.Kimball]

Now, I may not know numbers, I may not know about spread sheets... but I do know enough to understand that prolonged wars in Iraq (for what) and Afghanistan (toward what ultimate end) surely cannot be allowed to financially disable this country to provide the two above principles for our own people.

The thing is, it is all about numbers and you do have to understand spread sheets. It's real and there is no way around it. I would love to be able to fund every local charity going to the hilt too, but it's just not feasibly possible. There is this thing called a budget. There are only so many pieces to a pie.

So, are you saying that we should pull out of both Iraq and Afghanistan at this time?


Perhaps if the US didn't send cash handouts to everybody in the world that asks, then we might have a little to help our own selves out, ya reckon?

[thecavemaster]

The thing is, it is all about numbers and you do have to understand spread sheets. It's real and there is no way around it. I would love to be able to fund every local charity going to the hilt too, but it's just not feasibly possible. There is this thing called a budget. There are only so many pieces to a pie.

So, are you saying that we should pull out of both Iraq and Afghanistan at this time?


Perhaps if the US didn't send cash handouts to everybody in the world that asks, then we might have a little to help our own selves out, ya reckon?

If you are suggesting that my own personal ability to "spreadsheet" a healthcare plan that accomplishes the two principles in this thread, I don't agree. However, I do believe that avenues of possibility exist if we, as a nation, have a will to do so. The working poor will always be a part of the culture: Walmarts and Krogers of the world will always find ways to get around benefits in order to maximize profits. The only entity strong enough to srtong arm the Cut Throat Capitalist, the Bottom Line Boomer, is the government. If it takes a public option to ultimately protect the working poor from a golden calf bowing ethic, so be it. I'm for it. Period.

[DevilsWin]

So much wrong with this post, so little time.:biggrin:

Nothing is ever enough. Leave your wallet out on your porch and see how much your "neighbors" leave for you. Being charitable does not mean giving all your money to an incompetent and wasteful government. The government takes about half of your income with payroll and income taxes, most people give 10% or more to charity, then you have to pay property taxes, sales taxes, cigarette taxes, gasoline taxes, beer taxes, and about a thousand other taxes. So if you don't go ahead and fork over what you have left, you are going to be hanging out with the devil for all eternity? No way. Do very rich people like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates give their billions in charity to the government? Of course not, the government would waste it all. Jesus managed to do a few good deeds without the government telling him how he should do it.

Sorry DW, but I'm not going to he## for not wanting to give government more of my money when I am already taxed to death a thousand different ways.

Would you be happier if your tax dollars, without increase, went to fund more efficient programs?

[congressman]

I think it boils down to this.

Which do you care more about. Your wallet or your neighbor.

If the answer is the former rather than the later, good luck passing through the eye of the needle.

Blessed are the meek. Blessed are the peace makers.

What would Jesus do?

I dunno DW, tell us what he'd do. I bet he would recommend a 12,000 page piece of legislation packed full of rules, regulations, loopholes, earmarks, and legal jargon, as well as some symbolic threats of armageddon, a few amendments to the 10 commandments, as well as a mandate on baptisms requiring the water to be evaluated by the EPA for possible chlorine posioning in children.. And then buy a few million dollars worth of t.v. ads attacking all those who don't support him, as Satanic. Then hopefully with enough support of the Angels in heaven, he could have a bill on his throne by Christmas to sign. :eyeroll: What would Jesus do? HA! He'd ask people to show compassion and do things because its right.. not force them to because its 'A right'.

What would I do. Nothing. Making something a right, means that someone must be forced to provide it in the event that no one else does. Thats what America is all about huh? Maybe we can start a Doctor Draft. sounds a bit a like the Korean War.

Healthcare being provided to you by SOMEONE ELSE in the private practice is NOT a right. Its a privledge.

I sometimes have to wonder... Are the ones advocating healthcare reform just down on their luck and have none? Or are they just.. well.. typical trash who rely on the government for everything else in their life. Their foodstamps, their WIC, their EIC, their welfare, their college, their childs education, ect. I'm guessing its the latter. Oh well.

[DevilsWin]

I dunno DW, tell us what he'd do. I bet he would recommend a 12,000 page piece of legislation packed full of rules, regulations, loopholes, earmarks, and legal jargon, as well as some symbolic threats of armageddon, a few amendments to the 10 commandments, as well as a mandate on baptisms requiring the water to be evaluated by the EPA for possible chlorine posioning in children.. And then buy a few million dollars worth of t.v. ads attacking all those who don't support him, as Satanic. Then hopefully with enough support of the Angels in heaven, he could have a bill on his throne by Christmas to sign. :eyeroll: What would Jesus do? HA! He'd ask people to show compassion and do things because its right.. not force them to because its 'A right'.

What would I do. Nothing. Making something a right, means that someone must be forced to provide it in the event that no one else does. Thats what America is all about huh? Maybe we can start a Doctor Draft. sounds a bit a like the Korean War.

Healthcare being provided to you by SOMEONE ELSE in the private practice is NOT a right. Its a privledge.

I sometimes have to wonder... Are the ones advocating healthcare reform just down on their luck and have none? Or are they just.. well.. typical trash who rely on the government for everything else in their life. Their foodstamps, their WIC, their EIC, their welfare, their college, their childs education, ect. I'm guessing its the latter. Oh well.

Get mad about it, why don't ya.

I bet you're doing pretty well for yourself in this economy. What do you have to be mad about?

I have instated a new policy for myself and from now on, I will no longer respond to disrespectful posters.

[congressman]

Get mad about it, why don't ya.

I bet you're doing pretty well for yourself in this economy. What do you have to be mad about?

I have instated a new policy for myself and from now on, I will no longer respond to disrespectful posters.

I am doing well for myself, thank you. I save most of my money, and invest in stocks, ETF's, my TSP, and a small portion in non-major exchange penny stocks. Why? Because I live within my means, and follow the rules that every family and businessman should. What I am worried about though, since you asked, is the rising debt that this and the previous adminstrations and congresses are running up. Thus far, Obama and the Democratic Senate and House, in just 1 year in office has added more to our debt than every president from George Washington to Jimmy Carter. 1 year. Possibly 7 more to go, in which he predicts he'll add trilions more. His FY2010 budget shows a 13 digit deficit through his presidency. (This may or may not be entirely accurate, and i encourage someone with more time to validate it. I remember the story, but no time to research it for complete accuracy.) He has also provided the worst employment numbers since Hoover. Loosing millions upon millions of jobs thus far. Including nearly 3/4 of a million in one month alone. And 4 months of over half a million.. and an unemployment rate of nearly 10%, with totals approaching 17% total unemployment for those who have been laid off and either given up on finding work, or have had to settle for a part-time job.

Awesome. :rockon:

I'm not mad at all about my situation, or anyone elses. But asking what Jesus would do about healthcare is borderline ridiculous. :please:

[Mr.Kimball]

Get mad about it, why don't ya.

I bet you're doing pretty well for yourself in this economy. What do you have to be mad about?

I have instated a new policy for myself and from now on, I will no longer respond to disrespectful posters.

Disrespectful??? Where did you find any of that in congressman's post??


No DW, tell what you really mean by your new policy. You refuse to respond to these posters because they make sense. Why, refuse to respond? Because you know you cant win and compete with that. That's why!!! Tell it, like it is.

Disrespectful.....LOL...... Yeah, right.

[Mr.Kimball]

I am doing well for myself, thank you. I save most of my money, and invest in stocks, ETF's, my TSP, and a small portion in non-major exchange penny stocks. Why? Because I live within my means, and follow the rules that every family and businessman should. What I am worried about though, since you asked, is the rising debt that this and the previous adminstrations and congresses are running up. Thus far, Obama and the Democratic Senate and House, in just 1 year in office has added more to our debt than every president from George Washington to Jimmy Carter. 1 year. Possibly 7 more to go, in which he predicts he'll add trilions more. His FY2010 budget shows a 13 digit deficit through his presidency. (This may or may not be entirely accurate, and i encourage someone with more time to validate it. I remember the story, but no time to research it for complete accuracy.) He has also provided the worst employment numbers since Hoover. Loosing millions upon millions of jobs thus far. Including nearly 3/4 of a million in one month alone. And 4 months of over half a million.. and an unemployment rate of nearly 10%, with totals approaching 17% total unemployment for those who have been laid off and either given up on finding work, or have had to settle for a part-time job.

Awesome. :rockon:

I'm not mad at all about my situation, or anyone elses. But asking what Jesus would do about healthcare is borderline ridiculous. :please:

Very good post congressman. One that makes a great deal of sense.

[Mr.Kimball]

I dunno DW, tell us what he'd do. I bet he would recommend a 12,000 page piece of legislation packed full of rules, regulations, loopholes, earmarks, and legal jargon, as well as some symbolic threats of armageddon, a few amendments to the 10 commandments, as well as a mandate on baptisms requiring the water to be evaluated by the EPA for possible chlorine posioning in children.. And then buy a few million dollars worth of t.v. ads attacking all those who don't support him, as Satanic. Then hopefully with enough support of the Angels in heaven, he could have a bill on his throne by Christmas to sign. :eyeroll: What would Jesus do? HA! He'd ask people to show compassion and do things because its right.. not force them to because its 'A right'.

What would I do. Nothing. Making something a right, means that someone must be forced to provide it in the event that no one else does. Thats what America is all about huh? Maybe we can start a Doctor Draft. sounds a bit a like the Korean War.

Healthcare being provided to you by SOMEONE ELSE in the private practice is NOT a right. Its a privledge.

I sometimes have to wonder... Are the ones advocating healthcare reform just down on their luck and have none? Or are they just.. well.. typical trash who rely on the government for everything else in their life. Their foodstamps, their WIC, their EIC, their welfare, their college, their childs education, ect. I'm guessing its the latter. Oh well.

You've plain and simple got this one nailed down. Excellent.

[DevilsWin]

I am doing well for myself, thank you. I save most of my money, and invest in stocks, ETF's, my TSP, and a small portion in non-major exchange penny stocks. Why? Because I live within my means, and follow the rules that every family and businessman should. What I am worried about though, since you asked, is the rising debt that this and the previous adminstrations and congresses are running up. Thus far, Obama and the Democratic Senate and House, in just 1 year in office has added more to our debt than every president from George Washington to Jimmy Carter. 1 year. Possibly 7 more to go, in which he predicts he'll add trilions more. His FY2010 budget shows a 13 digit deficit through his presidency. (This may or may not be entirely accurate, and i encourage someone with more time to validate it. I remember the story, but no time to research it for complete accuracy.) He has also provided the worst employment numbers since Hoover. Loosing millions upon millions of jobs thus far. Including nearly 3/4 of a million in one month alone. And 4 months of over half a million.. and an unemployment rate of nearly 10%, with totals approaching 17% total unemployment for those who have been laid off and either given up on finding work, or have had to settle for a part-time job.

Awesome. :rockon:

I'm not mad at all about my situation, or anyone elses. But asking what Jesus would do about healthcare is borderline ridiculous. :please:

How has any of those terrible things changed your life?

Why are you being so dismissive of Jesus Christ and his teachings?

[DevilsWin]

Disrespectful??? Where did you find any of that in congressman's post??


No DW, tell what you really mean by your new policy. You refuse to respond to these posters because they make sense. Why, refuse to respond? Because you know you cant win and compete with that. That's why!!! Tell it, like it is.

Disrespectful.....LOL...... Yeah, right.

Is it possible to have a responsible discussion without your teenage locker room behavior?

[congressman]

How has any of those terrible things changed your life?

Why are you being so dismissive of Jesus Christ and his teachings?

Well being a devout Christian, and follower of the New Law.. We've been taught that things we do for others should be personable. Not mandated. If the government provides healthcare for someone, does it get to heaven? No. But if man, from the bottom of his own heart, helps out a charity that provides healthcare, or has a business that pays for all healthcare for its employees, then thats more of what Jesus looked for. What would Jesus do? We can't be sure, but I doubt he'd petition the government to provide healthcare, but instead want mans heart and soul to change to provide it.

I don't know what you do for a career... but its funny that you mentioned me being dismissive of Jesus Christ's teaching, and then ask other people about Military experience in other threads.. Because I've been a Christian, and devout, for almost 8 years now. I'm IN the military, serving in OIF in Baghdad currently, and I provide healthcare for 'free' to my soldiers. Thats my job. Thats what I do. And part of the reason I picked this career was because of Gods calling, and my willingness to please my Lord and Saviour.

Jesus was a physician himself. He healed people often.. mentally ,physically, and for 2000 years, spiritually. So how did he do it? He didn't need ObamaCare to get it done...

I just personally think its a cheap shot to mention what Jesus would do when you are trying to justify your beliefs on political matters...

I'm SURE you have viewpoints that differ from that of Jesus Christ, on political matters. Truth is, he'd probably be a libertarian. And Ron Paul is probably his distant cousin. :worthy:

[Mr.Kimball]

Is it possible to have a responsible discussion without your teenage locker room behavior?

Oh, it's very possible, because this is one of those cases, and I am dead serious. You see me use any smilie faces anywhere?

What I said is the dead honest gospel truth, and you know it is.

This guy makes sense with his responses and then you come up with this lame brained excuse for not responding to him because he is being disrespectful. What a joke that comment was. Besides, if anybody ever set the presidence on this website for doing just that, is was you. You patented that procedure a long, long time ago. Now you cant stand the heat. How about just telling the truth on the whole deal ?

Again, notice there's no smilie faces.

[Mr.Kimball]

How has any of those terrible things changed your life?

Why are you being so dismissive of Jesus Christ and his teachings?

The absolute most hypocritical statement that has ever been posted on this website. Bar none.

[Mr.Kimball]

Well being a devout Christian, and follower of the New Law.. We've been taught that things we do for others should be personable. Not mandated. If the government provides healthcare for someone, does it get to heaven? No. But if man, from the bottom of his own heart, helps out a charity that provides healthcare, or has a business that pays for all healthcare for its employees, then thats more of what Jesus looked for. What would Jesus do? We can't be sure, but I doubt he'd petition the government to provide healthcare, but instead want mans heart and soul to change to provide it.

I don't know what you do for a career... but its funny that you mentioned me being dismissive of Jesus Christ's teaching, and then ask other people about Military experience in other threads.. Because I've been a Christian, and devout, for almost 8 years now. I'm IN the military, serving in OIF in Baghdad currently, and I provide healthcare for 'free' to my soldiers. Thats my job. Thats what I do. And part of the reason I picked this career was because of Gods calling, and my willingness to please my Lord and Saviour.

Jesus was a physician himself. He healed people often.. mentally ,physically, and for 2000 years, spiritually. So how did he do it? He didn't need ObamaCare to get it done...

I just personally think its a cheap shot to mention what Jesus would do when you are trying to justify your beliefs on political matters...
I'm SURE you have viewpoints that differ from that of Jesus Christ, on political matters. Truth is, he'd probably be a libertarian. And Ron Paul is probably his distant cousin. :worthy:

You have not been on this board long enough to witness all the crap, the demented, sometimes perverted comments that have come from the fingertips of DW. If you had, you would understand that this comment came from way,way,way out of nowhere and does not remotely exemplify some of his previous statements. Ah, but in time you'll come to appreciate the thoughts and ideas that come from our dear friend.


Again DW, I stress no smilie faces.

[thecavemaster]

Why is it ok for certain issues to always come back to the bible, but not others? Abortion... "read your bible." Poverty? "It's ridiculous to ask what Jesus would do." Homosexual rights? "read your bible." Healthcare for all? "It's ridiculous to ask what Jesus would do." It seems to me that certain folks seem to think they've got a monopoly on what "god" cares about.

[congressman]

Why is it ok for certain issues to always come back to the bible, but not others? Abortion... "read your bible." Poverty? "It's ridiculous to ask what Jesus would do." Homosexual rights? "read your bible." Healthcare for all? "It's ridiculous to ask what Jesus would do." It seems to me that certain folks seem to think they've got a monopoly on what "god" cares about.

I'm sure this post isn't directed towards me, because then it wouldn't make any sense at all.

I'm sure that some on here think they know what jesus would do. Me though, I don't claim to know him personally...

Jesus could have been ruler of the world, instead though.. he sent Ronald Reagan. :biggrin: No seriously, those who use the 'wwjd' talking point never cease to make me. I couldn't agree more. :Thumbs:

[thecavemaster]

I'm sure this post isn't directed towards me, because then it wouldn't make any sense at all.

I'm sure that some on here think they know what jesus would do. Me though, I don't claim to know him personally...

Jesus could have been ruler of the world, instead though.. he sent Ronald Reagan. :biggrin: No seriously, those who use the 'wwjd' talking point never cease to make me. I couldn't agree more. :Thumbs:

In the marketplace of ideas, religious conceptions have, of course, the right to compete. However, zealots don't want to compete; they want to compel. Thus, let us be thankful for our Constitution, as Taliban like "you must" is unconstitutional.

[DevilsWin]

In the marketplace of ideas, religious conceptions have, of course, the right to compete. However, zealots don't want to compete; they want to compel. Thus, let us be thankful for our Constitution, as Taliban like "you must" is unconstitutional.

irateSho

[Beetle01]

Looks like Insurance companies are about to lose their protection from anti-trust laws, which is going to be great for Americans.

I just want one of you dems or liberals to justify why you think it is okay for your party leaders to meet behind closed doors, and the fact that they will not allow the bill to be gone over before voting on it and passing it?

I think there is so much useless crap they are trying to pass, I dont think a public option is necessary at this point. I think some changes need to be made.

for instance, regulation of the Insurance companies.
Require them to cover pre-existing conditions. Dont allow them to deny coverage to the insured. Require all businesses to provide insurance for their employees, regardless of hours worked. Also restrict companies from deducting pay for this. Give these companies larger tax breaks. We have some fo the highest corporate taxes in the country.

No need to go to a public option yet.

I do know this, things are not going to go well if they dems rush this bill through, dont allow people to view it, and then pass it with a 51 vote in the Senate. If you thought town hall meetings were bad now, I can envision them being 100x worse if this happens. Especially if it comes out that illegals get govt insurance.

[Mr.Kimball]

Looks like Insurance companies are about to lose their protection from anti-trust laws, which is going to be great for Americans.

I just want one of you dems or liberals to justify why you think it is okay for your party leaders to meet behind closed doors, and the fact that they will not allow the bill to be gone over before voting on it and passing it?

I think there is so much useless crap they are trying to pass, I dont think a public option is necessary at this point. I think some changes need to be made.

for instance, regulation of the Insurance companies.
Require them to cover pre-existing conditions. Dont allow them to deny coverage to the insured. Require all businesses to provide insurance for their employees, regardless of hours worked. Also restrict companies from deducting pay for this. Give these companies larger tax breaks. We have some fo the highest corporate taxes in the country.

No need to go to a public option yet.

I do know this, things are not going to go well if they dems rush this bill through, dont allow people to view it, and then pass it with a 51 vote in the Senate. If you thought town hall meetings were bad now, I can envision them being 100x worse if this happens. Especially if it comes out that illegals get govt insurance.

Was it not one of Obama's campaign promises that this would all be open meeting dicussions? Yep, I believe it was. How come it's all closed door discussion now? What say you on that, batman?




P.S. Dont forget to razzle dazzle us with all them important sounding words now.

[congressman]

[quote=Beetle01]
Require them to cover pre-existing conditions. Dont allow them to deny coverage to the insured. Require all businesses to provide insurance for their employees, regardless of hours worked. Also restrict companies from deducting pay for this. Give these companies larger tax breaks. We have some fo the highest corporate taxes in the country.QUOTE]

The above section in bold looks good.. it does. But, lets examine the facts.

Insurance wasn't made to cover everything. It was originally intended (and still is to an extent), to help pay for catastrophic medical events. Not the common cold and the accompanying doctor visit. Insurance was thought up as a legal way to gamble. It was a risk for both parties. The company itself was risking you getting sick, and you were risking paying money for coverage that you may never use. Someone will almost always lose. Very seldom will an insurance company break even. So what are the facts?

1) If YOU owned an insurance company, you'd probably be unwilling to cover someone who you'd be losing money on from the very beginning. Think of this scenario. If I came to you, without insurance, and had terminal cancer. What incentive is there to insuring me, and paying thousands upon thousands of dollars in medical bills, and recieving only a small portion from the patient to cover it? I know your heart tells you that you'd be a nice business man and cover them anyways, but how long can you stay in business doing so? You have only a few options to choose from. a) you just take the loss and chalk it up to a good deed. b) you pass off the loss on others by jacking up their prices. or c) you deny them coverage. And to be completely honest about the concept of having insurance, its primary purpose and reason for being is "insurance against getting sick and not having the money to cover it", not medical coverage after you get sick. Think of this example.. Suppose you had insurance on your car as most Americans do, and you get into a wreck.. The insurance company covers you and thats the end of the story. Now suppose you've went 15 years and never had a wreck, is that reason to cancel your insurance? Or downgrade? No. Now lets take it to the side by side comparison level... suppose you had a car, and risked not having insurance and suddenly totaled your car. Do you find it acceptable to go to an insurance agent and demand he not only cover you at very moment, but also pay for the 'pre-existing condition', that is your wrecked car? Hopefully you answered no to this question as well. If it was any other answer, then this post will do nothing to convince you that health care insurance is meant to be a policy against future major medical expenses.

2) The practice of canceling one's insurance without a GREAT reason, is simply wrong. However, I must say that as a business owner, at any moment I should be able to deny you access to my service and no longer accept your business. When preserving life, limb, or eyesight is part of my business practice, things are different. This means that doctors should not be able to deny care to a patient in emergency situations when life, limb, or eyesight are in immediate danger of being lost. Currently, this is legally binding (I'm nearly positive anyways, please research and correct me if I'm wrong.). An insurance company provides no such service, and should not be legally bound to cover someone if they decide against doing so. We need to remember, they are a business that deals in paying for treatment, not providing it specifically. And let me make it clear, so there's no misrepresentation of what I believe. I personally would never cancel an insurance plan for any reason other than fraud, lack of payment, or misuse of services. However, as you have already seen, and will learn even more about in the future.. I'm a very principled guy, and I believe strongly in certain ideas. I typically do not make exceptions, or bend my views to accomodate delicate situations. And my belief on this matter is clearly stated.

3)Requiring a business to cover every employee in full, regardless of hours worked, and not requiring the employee to pitch in at all is in my opinion a very dangerous and reckless policy. First off, for those who don't understand how a business works... When a company sets it financial goals and monthly/quarterly/and yearly budgets, it sets aside a portion for employee compensation. Lets assume its sets a profit margin of 10% as its goal (a small margin, making 10 cents on the dollar, ie "Big Oil"). , and sets aside 25% for employee compensation. Well, the employee compensation includes its part of the social security tax, unemployment, disability, insurance, and pay (other benefits are included at varying degrees). So lets assume that suddenly instead of paying 50% of the insurance premiums for its employee, it is suddenly required to pay 100%. One of a few things will have to happen to realize its profit margin of 10%. 1) it will cut the employees hours. 2) downsize the number of people on the payroll (ie. lay off employees). 3) Raise prices of its services and/or products. 4) Reduce the quality of insurance for its employees. 5)Find other benefits to trim, such as vacation days, holiday pay, bonuses, ect. So what have we accomplished with this idea? The same amount of money is going to be spent on the employees, just reorganized by a new set of priorities. As long as the employee isn't layed off, his or end compensation will be the same. And no one is better off.

4)Corporate taxes. This is a no brainer to me. We currently pay what I believe to be the 2nd highest tax in the world (i believe its 35-40%), second only to Japan (once again, I may. And let me stress, WE pay the tax. That is to say that corporations do NOT pay taxes at all, its just a sneaky way that Congress decided to get more money from individuals. It also broadens the tax base to insure that those who make under the 'zero tax threshold' still pay tax dollars to the greedy government. And while I'm on the subject of taxes.. each time the government reaches into your pocket and grabs a dollar, it is looking you dead in the eyes and saying to you "We need this dollar more than you, and we can spend it BETTER than you can." And for those who think that others should pay MORE tax than they already do... ask yourself, "how much do I have to spare myself?".. and if you have a few extra dollars here and there, you don't have to wait for a tax increase to help this "fiscally responsible (PUKE!)" adminstration pay down its trillions in debt its already acrued or 'promised' us... The treasury dept has always accepted donations and will gladly take it today.. I personally sent my last two stimulus tax rebates BACK to the government, as I felt it was both unconstutitional and reckless. Not alot of money, but I suppose it paid the interest for a few seconds or so.

In conclusion, I may or may not have been as clear as you'd like.. but I tried my very best to explain my views, and hopefully educate those who were a bit lost on this issue. I recommend once more, that everyone here research the issues they are passionate about. Find the reasons that you agree with something, understand the reasons others disagree with you, and DO NOT be afraid to change your mind on something... it is better to have BEEN wrong or incorrect in your beliefs, than to BE wrong and incorrect. Thanks for reading.

[thecavemaster]

Was it not one of Obama's campaign promises that this would all be open meeting dicussions? Yep, I believe it was. How come it's all closed door discussion now? What say you on that, batman?




P.S. Dont forget to razzle dazzle us with all them important sounding words now.

Nice use of color. To me, words don't sound important. They express ideas. I prefer transparency. However, given the, how shall I say this, "creative" interpretations put forth by opponents (Granny gonna die 'cause the death panel hates her: mommy ain't gonna get no mammogram: the Commies are comin' the Commies are comin') a little Julius Caesar may be in order: "Sometimes valor; sometimes discretion; and a wise man knows which is called for."

[Mr.Kimball]

Nice use of color. To me, words don't sound important. They express ideas. I prefer transparency. However, given the, how shall I say this, "creative" interpretations put forth by opponents (Granny gonna die 'cause the death panel hates her: mommy ain't gonna get no mammogram: the Commies are comin' the Commies are comin') a little Julius Caesar may be in order: "Sometimes valor; sometimes discretion; and a wise man knows which is called for."

First off thanks for the compliment on the artisanship. Always did have a fascination with crayolas.

However, after reviewing your conglomeration of jibberish, one thing stands out above all else. In your massive attempt to bedazzle, it is glaringly apparent that you didn't say a darn thing that means, well..... the first darn thing. The thing you did, is the thing you didn't do. You answered not, the first single question. It's my assumption that that was by your design though. Herbs and spices can do a lot to enhance a meal, but bottom line, you need a slab of meat to marinate it in first. Comprende?

Please, review my former post and if you could, (and if you would), please try your very best to humble yourself to simply answer a simple question, with preferably just a simple answer. That would more than suffice.

[thecavemaster]

First off thanks for the compliment on the artisanship. Always did have a fascination with crayolas.

However, after reviewing your conglomeration of jibberish, one thing stands out above all else. In your massive attempt to bedazzle, it is glaringly apparent that you didn't say a darn thing that means, well..... the first darn thing. The thing you did, is the thing you didn't do. You answered not, the first single question. It's my assumption that that was by your design though. Herbs and spices can do a lot to enhance a meal, but bottom line, you need a slab of meat to marinate it in first. Comprende?

Please, review my former post and if you could, (and if you would), please try your very best to humble yourself to simply answer a simple question, with preferably just a simple answer. That would more than suffice.

Nice use of Spanish. Are you an illegal alien? Let us say that you promise your daughter a new car when she turns sixteen. Unfortunately, her behavior from ages 14 and 15 leave a bit to be desired. As a result of events between the promise and the delivery of the promise changing, your ideas morph a little. Did you break the promise? Or would that be simplistic thinking?... which, by the way, seems a skill you have mastered.

[DevilsWin]

Before Mr. Kimball starts on yet another, "ANSWER MY QUESTION!" tirade I would ask that he head on over to the Don't Ask Don't Tell thread and answer my question. I've been waiting for a few days to find out what his perspective is on that matter.

[Mr.Kimball]

Nice use of Spanish. Are you an illegal alien? Let us say that you promise your daughter a new car when she turns sixteen. Unfortunately, her behavior from ages 14 and 15 leave a bit to be desired. As a result of events between the promise and the delivery of the promise changing, your ideas morph a little. Did you break the promise? Or would that be simplistic thinking?... which, by the way, seems a skill you have mastered.

Nope, not an illegal alien. That would mean that I would have preferential status in this country.That meaning, I would not be required to pay taxes, but yet recieve all the benefits that this country offers to it's tax paying citizens. That's the way it works, and in your view, should work in your world of thinking, correct? No, unfortunately I'm just one of the millions of tax paying citizens that hasn't figured out your system of avoidance yet.

So is what your trying to say is that American voters have all been bad little boys and girls and because of that everything now has to be discussed behind closed doors? That seems to be what you are trying to say with that concocted idiotic story your trying to use as a basis for some type of stupid anaolgy. Would you care to go into a little detail of what transpired that would make our president renege on a campaign promise that he diligently stressed of what would be the discussional procedure on this subject in his pre-election endeavors? Hmmm? What triggered the closed door sessions, batboy? Even for someone who trys to mumbo jumbo their half witted rationale by camoflauging it with words you hope no one else can understand, I must say that I find it most amusing that that is the very best that you could come up with. Man, your getting weaker and weaker all the time.

Hey batman!!!! Guess what? It's not called "morphing". It's called lying. He lied batman, he plain and simply lied. There's no calling it something else. Even though you know what I'm saying is right, you just cant bring yourself to say it though, can you?

And lastly, to address your statement of my mastery of certain skills, I do have to thank you for the utmost compliment. I know it's generally not your habit to acknowlege to those who counter your incessant meaningless ramblings as having vast amounts of common sense. Again, much thanks.

[thecavemaster]

Nope, not an illegal alien. That would mean that I would have preferential status in this country.That meaning, I would not be required to pay taxes, but yet recieve all the benefits that this country offers to it's tax paying citizens. That's the way it works, and in your view, should work in your world of thinking, correct? No, unfortunately I'm just one of the millions of tax paying citizens that hasn't figured out your system of avoidance yet.

So is what your trying to say is that American voters have all been bad little boys and girls and because of that everything now has to be discussed behind closed doors? That seems to be what you are trying to say with that concocted idiotic story your trying to use as a basis for some type of stupid anaolgy. Would you care to go into a little detail of what transpired that would make our president renege on a campaign promise that he diligently stressed of what would be the discussional procedure on this subject in his pre-election endeavors? Hmmm? What triggered the closed door sessions, batboy? Even for someone who trys to mumbo jumbo their half witted rationale by camoflauging it with words you hope no one else can understand, I must say that I find it most amusing that that is the very best that you could come up with. Man, your getting weaker and weaker all the time.

Hey batman!!!! Guess what? It's not called "morphing". It's called lying. He lied batman, he plain and simply lied. There's no calling it something else. Even though you know what I'm saying is right, you just cant bring yourself to say it though, can you?

And lastly, to address your statement of my mastery of certain skills, I do have to thank you for the utmost compliment. I know it's generally not your habit to acknowlege to those who counter your incessant meaningless ramblings as having vast amounts of common sense. Again, much thanks.

I would think it discretion, given the creative "spin" put on healthcare reform ideas. I am not sure why using words that apply troubles you so. It must, however, because you keep coming back to it. If the analogy I used isn't lying, then neither is Obama's. The detail is this: healthcare reform opponents seek to use fear ("the Commies are coming to kill Granny because they have prime spots on the death panels"), thus, discretion might require protecting the message from distortion until the facts are presented. I go back to this: people shouldn't go broke because they get sick; people shouldn't die or live in agony because they can't afford medical care. As a society, my belief is that we need to make a way to keep that from happening. I believe we can. By the way, my assumption is that the reader will understand what I'm saying. I must attribute more to BGR members literacy than you, which is funny, because you claim the opposite.