[TheRealThing]

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> You posit it as if it is either deism or "truth"... This is a misleading either/ or fallacy, and characterizes much of your in-print worldview.

> "He left the glory of heaven, knowing his destiny" goes the song. "He was not ashamed to call us his brethren" suggests the epistle. I would suggest that is ultimate Power laying down rights and serving. What would you call it?

> The experience of Roger Williams is illustrative of the need for paying attention to essential liberty and freedom of conscience, to say nothing of separation of church and state.

> We both look to Christ for forgiveness of sins. We both look to Christ for the ultimate renewal of all things. We disagree on the eschatalogical significance of the United States, and on the role of civil government in certain areas and issues. When the trumpet sounds, everything we are debating here will fall away.

> Well now see, therein lies the bulk of your confusion. All of your 'suggesting' is IMHO not the way God intends. He says let your no be no and your yes be yes. No suggesting with regard to Him or His Word. So it is not much of a leap of faith for me to believe His Word is devoid of suggestion. In fact, I believe God hates suggestion, otherwise known as mealy mouthing.
Revelation 3:16 (KJV)
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Deism is a lie, so yeah, it's either deism or truth.

> I would call Him the Suffering Servant, very God and very man. But I still don't know what rights you think He gave up in order to fulfill His Father's charge as The Savior of His people. He never stopped being God, and He never stopped being God's Son. And was it not He Who said the following?
Matthew 26:52-53 (KJV)
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus gave up the comforts of heaven, not any rights, not any authority, and certainly not His birthright. I am reconciled to God the Father, by Christ His Son, Who paid my sin debt on the cross. The way I see it Christ is my Brother, Savior and Mediator. I am washed in His shed blood as it was He that died on the cross. But it is through His sacrificial death on the cross that men live. So He retained His rights in my view, but gave up something much more precious, that being His life.


> It is incredible to me that you on the one hand choose to cite Roger Williams, who history teaches fled his homeland to get away from the Church of England, while you deny America's historical station in her leading role of spreading of the Gospel. Who in your mind took the leading role in the last two and a half centuries if not the US?

> LOL, I don't agree with what you say we don't agree about. I have argued that it has been the role of government in our day which has denied the Godhead, the very Godhead BTW under which our government was born. Man, in the persons of activist judges, legislators, and in some cases even bureaucrats, have by misuse of the authority of office attempted to usurp the authority of God. (Such as in the case of the SCOTUS' foolhardy validation of homosexuality) As at one time American officials freely acknowledged that our system of laws are founded on Christian principles, now we see, thanks to the ridiculous 1947 born distortions of the time honored concept of separation of Church and State, a complete denial that very foundation. Hence among other things the anarchy, rioting, violence, arson and lawlessness we now see nearly every day in this country.

Right, the last trump will sound and then the judgment. The consequences of which however, will never fall away and are well worth the time to understand. It will be either an eternity with The Father, or an eternity separated from Him in everlasting torment. The key to all of this is in getting it right this side of the judgment, using the only thing we brought into this world, which is the power to choose. There will be no excuses, no argument, and no do overs.