[thecavemaster]

The natural secretion theory? The comparison of that which occurs as a process in nature with this? As if a windstorm that knocks down a bunch of trees is the same as clearcutting a rainforest to make paper towels and furniture? That's rich. Incredible, really. I guess it's true that we go through life mishearing and misseeing and misunderstanding so that the stories we tell ourselves will add up. Right Wing Flirties seem to push this human tendency to a higher level.

[nky]

But are the rainforest really disappearing

"By one estimate, for every acre of rain forest cut down each year, more than 50 acres of new forest are growing in the tropics on land that was once farmed, logged or ravaged by natural disaster. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/30/scienc...ml?_r=3&hp

[Stardust]

The natural secretion theory? The comparison of that which occurs as a process in nature with this? As if a windstorm that knocks down a bunch of trees is the same as clearcutting a rainforest to make paper towels and furniture? That's rich. Incredible, really. I guess it's true that we go through life mishearing and misseeing and misunderstanding so that the stories we tell ourselves will add up. Right Wing Flirties seem to push this human tendency to a higher level.

See, there is another completely uneducated comment! To say that this is a Republican made problem is absolutely senseless. Again, this is a post that complete disregards the thread and picks or hears what they want to hear. This thread was intended to say that the disaster that happened in the Gulf was made by Republicans! This was a manmade disaster, pure and simple, not a Republican made disaster. As I said, I GUARENTEE that the oil well was not owned by the Government, thus the ownership undoubtedly has as much Democratic ownership as it does Republican. Hold those accountable for the result, but this has nothing to do with one's political affiliation. And yes, there is more natural oil spillage then man made, thus, the acts of God (or for those of you who don't believe) a fairy called Mother Nature, creates more damage to earth than man could ever do!

[nky]

By the way why would you send SWAT teams to investigate a oil rig explosion?

"Mr. Obama said SWAT teams were being dispatched to the Gulf to investigate oil rigs and said his administration is now working to determine the cause of the disaster. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/2...4311.shtml

[DevilsWin]

No, you are completely off base to the argument of this thread. This thread was designed to be a politcal issue. Contrary to what the gibberish above was is the fact that this is not a Conservative/Liberal issue. This was a man made issue, but it in fact had ZERO to do with a political affiliation. I would venture to say that their is some democrat owneship in that oil rig that exploded and not 100% owned, operated and supported by Texas born presidents.....:popcorn:

Contrary to what your over inflated head may think. The Drill Baby Drill mantra and conservative $ loving agenda was the target here in this thread. Not the politics or ownership involved with this current disaster. Just as I predicted, you think it's gibberish.

I heard the BP CEO and President say over the weekend that their last best effort will begin when they get a dome to contain the leak this weekend. So if that doesnt work what next?

Drill Baby Drill was stupid for any politician to coin as a catch phrase and what is even more stupid is the fools that cheer for anyone shouting such stupidity. Short sighted political gain is not an equal trade for man made disaster.

[Beetle01]

So DW I can expect to see you walking the course during the golf league for the rest of the summer? Those carts are gas powered you know.


While it would be nice to not have to rely on "dirty" resources such as coal and oil for energy, there is not a feasible alternative and won't be for awhile. I think everyone agrees we should continue to research alternative means of energy. Of course if we did find some type of clean resource to replace oil completely then how many trillions of dollars would the libs want to give to the middle east countries who would then be going flat broke and back to the 1200's? We are giving money to Greece because of the situation their socialist leaders got them in trying to pursue their agenda and their country is about to fail.

[launchpad4]

Offshore drilling is working out well. This is only the first major oil disaster since the Valdez tanker crash in the late 80's/early 90s. You can't say that an entire industry should be stopped because of 1 tragedy. If that were the case they'd be no cars, coal, electricity, urbanization, and many other things that we depend on as a society. You calling for the stopping of drilling would be like someone saying we shouldn't have cities after the Chicago fire. Pure ignorance and it shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. There are many other dangerous jobs that have alot more casualties than drilling. Should we not have a military because people die serving their country? Should we stop many fish markets because the jobs are too dangerous? I guess we shouldn't fly either since plans crash from time to time. Its hard to argue with someone that feels they are right just because they think something. However I can sit here and say that through perseverance this country has become a great symbol of industrialization and commerce. I don't think that we should sit back and accept the loss of life with no plans to prevent another tragedy but I also don't think that we can condem an entire industry because of this. I believe it would help you out trememdously to get out from under whatever rock in Paintsville or Johnson county that you live under and realize the ramifictions of what you wish would happen. Do you honestly think that by eliminating offshore drilling it would not have a negative effect on society? If we ban driiling over 1 accident then why not mining? It has more accidents than drilling. What cut-offs should we use to determine an industry too dangerous? You truly are in my opinion a propaganda regurgitating liberal who know's nothing of what you are talking about or the results that it would cause.

[DevilsWin]

So DW I can expect to see you walking the course during the golf league for the rest of the summer? Those carts are gas powered you know.


While it would be nice to not have to rely on "dirty" resources such as coal and oil for energy, there is not a feasible alternative and won't be for awhile. I think everyone agrees we should continue to research alternative means of energy. Of course if we did find some type of clean resource to replace oil completely then how many trillions of dollars would the libs want to give to the middle east countries who would then be going flat broke and back to the 1200's? We are giving money to Greece because of the situation their socialist leaders got them in trying to pursue their agenda and their country is about to fail.

Battery powered carts are superior. I'm saving gas by not driving 50 miles to a course that has them. Plus the green fees are more expensive. :biggrin:

[thecavemaster]

See, there is another completely uneducated comment! To say that this is a Republican made problem is absolutely senseless. Again, this is a post that complete disregards the thread and picks or hears what they want to hear. This thread was intended to say that the disaster that happened in the Gulf was made by Republicans! This was a manmade disaster, pure and simple, not a Republican made disaster. As I said, I GUARENTEE that the oil well was not owned by the Government, thus the ownership undoubtedly has as much Democratic ownership as it does Republican. Hold those accountable for the result, but this has nothing to do with one's political affiliation. And yes, ther e is more natural oil spillage then man made, thus, the acts of God (or for those of you who don't believe) a fairy called Mother Nature, creates more damage to earth than man could ever do!

Laughable. Use of fossil fuels? Not Republican, not Democrat. Circa 2010, the problem of a consumption crazed economic model. You guys mentioned the "natural secretions" theory... not me. Laughable. If you are suggesting that "natural secretions" cause as much lasting damage to Prince William Sound as the Exxon Valedez disaster, well, laughable. If you love Dusty Rhodes in reality, it couldn't be more perfect.

[Old School]

I remember from science class that you need vinegar and a whole lot of baking soda.

Man.......I'd hate to see the size of the bottle of vinegar and box of baking soda it took to start the Eyjafjallajokull volcano.

[Old School]

I agree with alot of this, however, you made the statement other countries drill just miles away from our boarders, however, most of those are in fact american based companies. One bad instance of an American based company (Exon) entered a country back in the late 90s ruining much of the land as well as running of many Native Tribes. Not only that but what before was good drinking water in many of the streams and rivers were contaminated by sludge from the drilling. Exon also refused to clean the area up and is still an ongoing debate while they continue to drill.

Your right, and that is part of my point. Whenever they drill in other countries they do not have to follow the guidelines as the do when drilliing in the U.S.

[Old School]

Battery powered carts are superior. I'm saving gas by not driving 50 miles to a course that has them. Plus the green fees are more expensive. :biggrin:

....and this energy source comes from what? Can you say COAL btw dw keep driving that battery powered cart and using the net, I need the extra work. :Thumbs:

[DevilsWin]

....and this energy source comes from what? Can you say COAL btw dw keep driving that battery powered cart and using the net, I need the extra work. :Thumbs:

Just doin my part ole friendy.:biggrin:

[15thRegionSlamaBamma]

Your right, and that is part of my point. Whenever they drill in other countries they do not have to follow the guidelines as the do when drilliing in the U.S.

Nor do they in the United States sure the follow more closely but there have been several events to where they were warned, did not fix the problems and the result has been an oil spill. Now with that said not onlt the oil industry but coal industry are also at fault for recent issues because of not following regulations and guidelines. When being notified not fixing the issues. Thus, these companies are very important in the free market economy that we live in however, these companies also need to realize while they are cutting costs they are risking lifes in which I do not think they realize untill such situations happen. But agreed companies that are the centerpiece of energy and oil are the american economy at this day in age, with out off shore drilling we would be importing oil in mass and thus, our gas prices would prob be at 8 or 10 dollars a gallon. I dont want that but I DO want these companies to follow guidelines and make changes when they are suggested so all American families can be safe.

[15thRegionSlamaBamma]

I am not sure if any of you have watched a video called Crude if not go watch that highlights situations as this to the T

[Old School]

Nor do they in the United States sure the follow more closely but there have been several events to where they were warned, did not fix the problems and the result has been an oil spill. Now with that said not onlt the oil industry but coal industry are also at fault for recent issues because of not following regulations and guidelines. When being notified not fixing the issues. Thus, these companies are very important in the free market economy that we live in however, these companies also need to realize while they are cutting costs they are risking lifes in which I do not think they realize untill such situations happen. But agreed companies that are the centerpiece of energy and oil are the american economy at this day in age, with out off shore drilling we would be importing oil in mass and thus, our gas prices would prob be at 8 or 10 dollars a gallon. I dont want that but I DO want these companies to follow guidelines and make changes when they are suggested so all American families can be safe.

You are wrong if you think that violations in coal minies are not being corrected. Once a violation has been issued the coal company must correct the violation within a specified time which is set by the inspector. The amount of time given to abate the violation varies depending on the severity of the infraction, some must corrected within 24 hours while others may be given a couple of days. Many of these violations are corrected before the inspector leaves the mine.

[15thRegionSlamaBamma]

You are wrong if you think that violations in coal minies are not being corrected. Once a violation has been issued the coal company must correct the violation within a specified time which is set by the inspector. The amount of time given to abate the violation varies depending on the severity of the infraction, some must corrected within 24 hours while others may be given a couple of days. Many of these violations are corrected before the inspector leaves the mine.

However, statements have been made by the media that based on inspections one particular mining company in which we not mention names on here at one mine alone had multiple violations which were not corrected thus resulting in serious injuries. That same mine has had multiple incidents and are still under operation. Am I saying that all companies or operations do this no, nor do oil companies however, some do cut corners and if you believe other wise then you are naive. It happens in all businesses food industry, motor, etc etc. Our systems are flawed because we see no wrong in these situations untill a cotastrophy happens plain and simple. Companies are meant to make as much money at any cost, set record profits etc. etc. Based on that we produce flawed materials in part is why recall rates in the united states have almost tripled in the last two decades.

[Hoot Gibson]

However, statements have been made by the media that based on inspections one particular mining company in which we not mention names on here at one mine alone had multiple violations which were not corrected thus resulting in serious injuries. That same mine has had multiple incidents and are still under operation. Am I saying that all companies or operations do this no, nor do oil companies however, some do cut corners and if you believe other wise then you are naive. It happens in all businesses food industry, motor, etc etc. Our systems are flawed because we see no wrong in these situations untill a cotastrophy happens plain and simple. Companies are meant to make as much money at any cost, set record profits etc. etc. Based on that we produce flawed materials in part is why recall rates in the united states have almost tripled in the last two decades.

Your post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the coal mining industry. As Old School said, most violations of mining regulations are "abated" before mine inspectors leave the mine because most violations are not serious breaches of safety. Some violations pose no immediate danger but require time and labor to resolve. Any unabated violations would have fallen into this category and work would have been underway when the explosion occurred.

Coal operators cannot delay mitigating the conditions that lead to a citation. They do have a right to appeal an inspector's ruling on the level of threat that a condition leading to a citation posed to the safety of the miners. These decisions are subjective and have a direct bearing on the size of the fines paid by the mine operator. The mine operator has the same right to due process that all US citizens have if they think that they have been unfairly penalized.

If you are charged with driving drunk at 60 mph through a 25 mph school zone, when you know that you were sober and only driving 35 mph on a Sunday, would you not agree that you violated the law but argue your case for a smaller fine?

As for the number of violations by some of these mining companies, the media accounts also distort reality. The reality is that mining laws are very complex and it is really not possible for the owner of a mine to prevent all violations of law. What owner can do is diligently train their employees to follow the law with a "safety first" attitude. The federal regulators should, and usually do, focus on serious violations of laws that present a real threat to miner safety.

For example, I once worked in a mine that operated in a 20 foot thick seam of coal (very unusual even in the early 80s). Because of the great working conditions and efforts by the company, the mine received few citations. However, during almost every inspection, it received a citation for the same thing. Mine operators were required to keep a fire extinguisher on all mobile equipment such as front end loaders. They were also prohibited from locking up the fire extinguisher by chaining it to the loader. In this particular case, the end loader was located in a very remote area of WWV and thieves would steal expensive fire extinguishers that were not secured.

Almost every time that MSHA inspected the mine, the mine was cited for failure to keep a fire extinguisher on the end loader. The missing fire extinguisher was always promptly replaced with a new one and then promptly stolen. The mine kept a fire extinguisher locked up near the end loader but the law dictated that it must be unlocked and on board the end loader. Following the letter of the law is not always the safest thing to do.

[15thRegionSlamaBamma]

Once again I find it hard to believe that all mining operations follow the proper guidelines that are presented by law. I make this claim from talking with several in the mining industry who have stated their paricular mines do no. Once again I'm no speaking out against either the oil or coal industry. While your mine may have only been issues small violations repeatedly and it was because of people stealing equipment I do not oppose that. However, I have heard from higher ups in the industry who have stated before pay offs to inspectors have occured, that I do oppose because I have a respect for the industry and the challenging work enviorments miners under go. Once again it's a general statement and not speaking of all mines. I appreciate your in put and you are correct I do not know all there is to know. But the media is not my only source.

Just so you know IF I was to be caught on and DUI or speeding in an school zone I would not fight the fine. I'm the type of person to man up to my wrong doings and pay my fine as I have before for speeding.

[Hoot Gibson]

Once again I find it hard to believe that all mining operations follow the proper guidelines that are presented by law. I make this claim from talking with several in the mining industry who have stated their paricular mines do no. Once again I'm no speaking out against either the oil or coal industry. While your mine may have only been issues small violations repeatedly and it was because of people stealing equipment I do not oppose that. However, I have heard from higher ups in the industry who have stated before pay offs to inspectors have occured, that I do oppose because I have a respect for the industry and the challenging work enviorments miners under go. Once again it's a general statement and not speaking of all mines. I appreciate your in put and you are correct I do not know all there is to know. But the media is not my only source.

Just so you know IF I was to be caught on and DUI or speeding in an school zone I would not fight the fine. I'm the type of person to man up to my wrong doings and pay my fine as I have before for speeding.

You missed my point entirely. If you were falsely accused of driving drunk 50 mph in a school zone but you were, in fact, sober and driving only 35, I doubt that you would plead guilty to a DUI and to driving faster than you were. You would admit to speeding and defend against the false charges.

I spent more than 20 years in the coal industry myself and I know that the media does not know what it is talking about when it comes to the coal industry and most reporters like it that way. I also know that there are some bad actors in the mining industry that intentionally endanger the lives of miners everyday, in a misguided attempt to shave costs. I also know that Massey is not one of those companies. That does not mean that some knucklehead mine manager might not have failed to follow the company's safety policies and the law.

Nor does it mean that some nicotine addict did not smuggle a few smokes into the mine between two slices of bread and light up in some secluded place in the return airway where methane tends to accumulate. That kind of thing happens despite the best efforts of mine management.

As for corruption among mine inspectors, do not assume that mining companies always initiate bribes - they do not. An inspector is just as likely to drop a few hints about what he is hoping to get for Christmas and leave his vehicle unlocked. I have had mining company officials with decades of experience tell me that they have never known an honest MSHA official. I have a very hard time believing that, just as I do not believe most of the smears against Massey and other large companies. The real abuses generally are committed by small operators operating mines on a shoestring and struggling to stay in business.

[Old School]

However, statements have been made by the media that based on inspections one particular mining company in which we not mention names on here at one mine alone had multiple violations which were not corrected thus resulting in serious injuries. That same mine has had multiple incidents and are still under operation. Am I saying that all companies or operations do this no, nor do oil companies however, some do cut corners and if you believe other wise then you are naive. It happens in all businesses food industry, motor, etc etc. Our systems are flawed because we see no wrong in these situations untill a cotastrophy happens plain and simple. Companies are meant to make as much money at any cost, set record profits etc. etc. Based on that we produce flawed materials in part is why recall rates in the united states have almost tripled in the last two decades.

I learned many years ago that the media can will do what ever they can to sensationalize any and all stories. I remember watching the media covering the Quecreek (the Pa. mine that was flooded) those reporters were clueless, but the inexperienced person believed every word.

Your post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the coal mining industry. As Old School said, most violations of mining regulations are "abated" before mine inspectors leave the mine because most violations are not serious breaches of safety. Some violations pose no immediate danger but require time and labor to resolve. Any unabated violations would have fallen into this category and work would have been underway when the explosion occurred.

Coal operators cannot delay mitigating the conditions that lead to a citation. They do have a right to appeal an inspector's ruling on the level of threat that a condition leading to a citation posed to the safety of the miners. These decisions are subjective and have a direct bearing on the size of the fines paid by the mine operator. The mine operator has the same right to due process that all US citizens have if they think that they have been unfairly penalized.


As for the number of violations by some of these mining companies, the media accounts also distort reality. The reality is that mining laws are very complex and it is really not possible for the owner of a mine to prevent all violations of law. What owner can do is diligently train their employees to follow the law with a "safety first" attitude. The federal regulators should, and usually do, focus on serious violations of laws that present a real threat to miner safety.

For example, I once worked in a mine that operated in a 20 foot thick seam of coal (very unusual even in the early 80s). Because of the great working conditions and efforts by the company, the mine received few citations. However, during almost every inspection, it received a citation for the same thing. Mine operators were required to keep a fire extinguisher on all mobile equipment such as front end loaders. They were also prohibited from locking up the fire extinguisher by chaining it to the loader. In this particular case, the end loader was located in a very remote area of WWV and thieves would steal expensive fire extinguishers that were not secured.

Almost every time that MSHA inspected the mine, the mine was cited for failure to keep a fire extinguisher on the end loader. The missing fire extinguisher was always promptly replaced with a new one and then promptly stolen. The mine kept a fire extinguisher locked up near the end loader but the law dictated that it must be unlocked and on board the end loader. Following the letter of the law is not always the safest thing to do.

When inspectors write a citation they have to determine if it is a low, moderate or high risk and how many people it affects. Recently inspectors are reporting more violations as high risk which places them in the S&S catagory and raises the price of the fine and more importantly counts toward the pattern of violation list.

This is why so many of the violations are being contested today, companies are not saying they not guilty, but are challenging that the violation was low risk instead of high risk.

Once again I find it hard to believe that all mining operations follow the proper guidelines that are presented by law. I make this claim from talking with several in the mining industry who have stated their paricular mines do no. Once again I'm no speaking out against either the oil or coal industry. While your mine may have only been issues small violations repeatedly and it was because of people stealing equipment I do not oppose that. However, I have heard from higher ups in the industry who have stated before pay offs to inspectors have occured, that I do oppose because I have a respect for the industry and the challenging work enviorments miners under go. Once again it's a general statement and not speaking of all mines. I appreciate your in put and you are correct I do not know all there is to know. But the media is not my only source.

Just so you know IF I was to be caught on and DUI or speeding in an school zone I would not fight the fine. I'm the type of person to man up to my wrong doings and pay my fine as I have before for speeding.

I don't believe neither Hoot or myself ever said that all coal companies follow the rules and guidelines, if that were true the there would be no violations written and we would not be having this discussion.

[TheRealVille]

Lol - do you even know what you are talking about? There is 50 times more natural oil drifts from natural secretion into the ocean per year than what man has created in a lifetime. I love to see those who are so educated in a subject just throw our statements with ZERO research!

I would like to see proof of this statement. We are at 5 million gallons and counting in the gulf. By Fathers day, if this keeps up we will be at Valdez amounts. All the parties involved keep blaming each other. Meanwhile, Spill, baby Spill.

[TheRealVille]

How it's working for you I seen gas at $3.00 a gallon today?

2.85 before the spill, your point is?

[TheRealVille]

Chris Oynes, associate director for offshore energy and minerals management at MMS, departs as the agency faces growing criticism from Congress and the White House following last month's deadly explosion of the Deepwater Horizon oil rig in the Gulf of Mexico.

The accident, which led to the deaths of 11 workers and one of the worst offshore oil spills in the U.S. in decades, will be the subject of half a dozen congressional hearings this week, including two on Tuesday at which Interior Secretary Ken Salazar is scheduled to testify.

Mr. Salazar, whose department oversees the MMS, said last week he planned to reorganize the agency, splitting the MMS's revenue-collecting officials from those who are supposed to ensure compliance with safety and environmental rules. President Barack Obama last week ordered a review of the MMS, and criticized the "cozy relationship between the oil companies and the federal agency that permits them to drill."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...sNewsThird

[Hoot Gibson]

The Obama regime granted a permit to BP to drill the ill-fated well and even gave the well's owner an award for its outstanding safety record. Now, the regime needs scapegoats - so it bids farewell to an associate agency director. Of course, the Obama regime has only been in power 18 months, so the disaster is Bush's fault.

[Stardust]

The Obama regime granted a permit to BP to drill the ill-fated well and even gave the well's owner an award for its outstanding safety record. Now, the regime needs scapegoats - so it bids farewell to an associate agency director. Of course, the Obama regime has only been in power 18 months, so the disaster is Bush's fault.

:Thumbs: Great post

[BillyB]

The Obama regime granted a permit to BP to drill the ill-fated well and even gave the well's owner an award for its outstanding safety record. Now, the regime needs scapegoats - so it bids farewell to an associate agency director. Of course, the Obama regime has only been in power 18 months, so the disaster is Bush's fault.

Someone takes their cues from Rush.

[Hoot Gibson]

Someone takes their cues from Rush.

Maybe he takes his cues from me. Obama has appointed more czars than ever ruled Russia. Whoever was first to refer to the Obama administration as a regime nailed it...and as a bonus "regime" is easier to type than "thugocracy." Whatever you want to call the chaos in the White House, it is a far cry from the post-racial, uniter-not-divider administration that Obama promised.

[TheRealVille]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/19/gulf.oi.../?hpt=Sbin

But Gov. Bobby Jindal of Louisiana says the efforts haven't stopped oil from reaching his state's coastline. Thicker, heavier oil than seen in previous days has blanketed some of the state's precious interior wetlands, he said, and he called for the Army Corps of Engineers to approve an emergency permit to dredge sand from barrier islands to create sand booms as another line of defense.
"These are not tar balls, this is not sheen, this is heavy oil that we are seeing in our wetlands," Jindal said.

Spill, baby, spill. Of course though, there is "50 times more natural secretions than man has created in a lifetime" than what is leaking here.

[TheRealVille]

BTW, I am for offshore drilling in the gulf, but not without guarantees that they are leak proof. This particular leak had that guarantee too though, how do they do it?