[thecavemaster]

And what I fault is your knee jerk reaction to attack capitalism at every opportunity, all the while denying that you are a socialist at heart. You are obviously clueless about what makes this a great country. Obama is the perfect president for people like you. He will give you an expensive lesson on what real socialism does to the spirit and well being of a nation. Most Americans are smart enough to have already learned that lesson but you are about to learn the hard way.

Capitalism? Is that what YOU call putting silver and gold before flesh and blood? And, please, are you going to start the "what makes this country great" routine? Let's be clear: human nature, left unchecked, WILL choose profits over people... that's not socialist, Hoot. It's historical. "Most" Americans want silver and gold chosen over flesh and blood? You hold that view, Hoot, and I'm dangerous? Of course, I am no opponent of "fair scales" capitalism, and you know that. My hope is, that beyond the hidebound adherence to mantra, you are no fan of "silver and gold before flesh and blood" greed.

[Cardinalfootballguy]

The bodies of the 4 miners was just found. Please everyone keep the family and friends in your prayers tonight.

[TidesHoss32]

I was just getting ready to post it Cardinal..this is absolutely heartbreaking..this is the type of thing that torments me. The one thing that we can take comfort in, is that they didnt suffer. May God be with their families, and I would hope that everybody would say a prayer for those affected in all of this. 29 dead. Thats hard to wrap my head around.

[Cardinalfootballguy]

I was just getting ready to post it Cardinal..this is absolutely heartbreaking..this is the type of thing that torments me. The one thing that we can take comfort in, is that they didnt suffer. May God be with their families, and I would hope that everybody would say a prayer for those affected in all of this. 29 dead. Thats hard to wrap my head around.

This just hits so close to home for me... Mining is in my family its just what they do, from my grandpa, to my dad step dad uncles and cousins its just something that is a strong condition in it. Seeing this makes you think of the real dangers of the job and that they put there life on the line everyday going to work to put food on the table and a roof over your head, And in my eyes all the miners of the world are brave men and hero's.

[Hoot Gibson]

Capitalism? Is that what YOU call putting silver and gold before flesh and blood? And, please, are you going to start the "what makes this country great" routine? Let's be clear: human nature, left unchecked, WILL choose profits over people... that's not socialist, Hoot. It's historical. "Most" Americans want silver and gold chosen over flesh and blood? You hold that view, Hoot, and I'm dangerous? Of course, I am no opponent of "fair scales" capitalism, and you know that. My hope is, that beyond the hidebound adherence to mantra, you are no fan of "silver and gold before flesh and blood" greed.

The belief that man is evil and cannot be trusted to make decisions for himself or herself is one of the cornerstones of socialism. Profits are what put bread on the table in this country, whether that table is owned by the wealthiest among us or by the poorest welfare cheat. The greater the government, the lesser the individual.

The brave men who recovered the bodies of the victims of this disaster are real heroes because many mine rescuers have lost their lives while engaged in recovery operations. If you are looking for villains in this tragedy, you need to look no further than to the scores of ambulance chasing lawyers who will be looking to line their own pockets by exploiting the pain and suffering of the survivors of this tragedy.

[thecavemaster]

The belief that man is evil and cannot be trusted to make decisions for himself or herself is one of the cornerstones of socialism. Profits are what put bread on the table in this country, whether that table is owned by the wealthiest among us or by the poorest welfare cheat. The greater the government, the lesser the individual.

The brave men who recovered the bodies of the victims of this disaster are real heroes because many mine rescuers have lost their lives while engaged in recovery operations. If you are looking for villains in this tragedy, you need to look no further than to the scores of ambulance chasing lawyers who will be looking to line their own pockets by exploiting the pain and suffering of the survivors of this tragedy.

Hoot, Hoot... please.... human beings are not "pure" evil, they are not "pure" good... they are incredible combinations of good and evil. With that said, if your contention is that corporate entitites, given the title of persons by strange power in our courts and society, can be left unregulated, unchecked as guarantors of honest scales, of clean water, clean air, then you haven't the radicalism of a reformer... you have the rabid eye of the zealot, who ends up destroying tolerance and freedom with blind zeal. By the way, have you lately read the statistics for miners killed in union mines as opposed to non-union mines, when compared over the last fifty years? It's interesting, Hoot. Of course, it does sort of collide with your worldview, which, it seems to me, means you'll ignore it or discount it without a fair hearing. Typical.

[Hoot Gibson]

This just hits so close to home for me... Mining is in my family its just what they do, from my grandpa, to my dad step dad uncles and cousins its just something that is a strong condition in it. Seeing this makes you think of the real dangers of the job and that they put there life on the line everyday going to work to put food on the table and a roof over your head, And in my eyes all the miners of the world are brave men and hero's.

:Thumbs: Miners around the world are real heroes. It is hard to appreciate the job that they do until you work a few shifts underground in dangerous conditions. There is no lonelier feeling than to turn off your cap light a couple of miles deep into a mine and hear real silence.

I will never forget the feeling of riding a mantrip on the hoot owl shift on a Sunday night in a Martin County coal mine, only to be stopped by a massive roof fall on the track.

I only worked a few months in underground mines as a young man, but that was long enough for me to develop a deep respect for the men and women who mine for a living. I still cannot understand how men can work everyday hauling coal while lying on their back in a seam of coal as thin as 28 inches (25 or 26 inches in the case of the Blue Gem seam). I am thankful that somebody is willing to work in that environment because I could not do it.

[Hoot Gibson]

Hoot, Hoot... please.... human beings are not "pure" evil, they are not "pure" good... they are incredible combinations of good and evil. With that said, if your contention is that corporate entitites, given the title of persons by strange power in our courts and society, can be left unregulated, unchecked as guarantors of honest scales, of clean water, clean air, then you haven't the radicalism of a reformer... you have the rabid eye of the zealot, who ends up destroying tolerance and freedom with blind zeal. By the way, have you lately read the statistics for miners killed in union mines as opposed to non-union mines, when compared over the last fifty years? It's interesting, Hoot. Of course, it does sort of collide with your worldview, which, it seems to me, means you'll ignore it or discount it without a fair hearing. Typical.

Your socialist rants fall on deaf ears here, CM. Why not make them on the MoveOn.org or Democratic Underground site? The lunatic left would appreciate your stream of semi-consciousness style of rambling.

[thecavemaster]

Your socialist rants fall on deaf ears here, CM. Why not make them on the MoveOn.org or Democratic Underground site? The lunatic left would appreciate your stream of semi-consciousness style of rambling.

That's what I was saying, Hoot. The "ears" of your mind are deaf to anything that doesn't square with your worldview. Hoot, I've never been on either of those sites. And, it's not "lunatic" to believe that unchecked human nature will not simply and magically arrive at "honest scales," when it comes to the mega corporations that span the globe. And, of course, to suggest so doesn't make one a socialist, no matter how deeply you need to believe that it does in your little corner of the world.

[Old School]

There is no way to make coal mining "safe" the way the Average Joe on the street counts safe. However, there is no way that Hoot can even believe that what "the Invisible Hand" often means is this: bottom lines get measured against safety improvements get measured against public perception... and, many times, silver and gold get counted more dear than flesh and blood. By the way, Adam Smith himself believed the "corporation" to be a great minefield for potential corruption and greed. Read The Wealth of Nations for yourself.

We don't know what happened to cause this horrible accident, and regardless of the investigation results, Massey has always been among the leaders in mining safety. They were one of the first to require employees to ware safety glasses, florenscent strips, hearing protections etc. In March of this year Massey introduced a new hard hat that will stay on the miner better whenever the miner falls or is struck in the head.

Massey has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the infrastructure for this operation. The management at Massey has been in the business long enough to know that cutting corners could cause an accident that would be so severe that it could permanently close the operation. It would not make sense from a business standpoint, even if their only concern was about silver and gold as you say.

This seems to be yet another subject that you know nothing about but, as usual you do not let that stop you from expressing a strong anti-capitalist opinion. Mining accidents are expensive to coal companies and impact the bottom line in many ways.

Accidents with fatalities are extremely expensive and can easily put a coal company out of business. There will always some fly by night operators in any industry but Massey did not become the nation's largest coal producer by ignoring safety regulations.

Massey is extremely selective in its hiring practices, pays its employees well, and demands excellent performance in return. I never had any desire to work for Massey because of the extremely long hours it often requires its supervisors to work - and I had no problem working 50 to 60 hour weeks at the time. However, Massey has always been one of the best managed companies in the business. It is a shame that a socialist will ultimately decide the company's fate and the fate of the entire coal industry as well..

You're right Hoot, accidents like this alway hurts companies. I understand that this was a 5 section mine that produced 1.2 m tons per year.
It would not surprise me if this mined was closed after the investigation is completed.

Hoot, Hoot... please.... human beings are not "pure" evil, they are not "pure" good... they are incredible combinations of good and evil. With that said, if your contention is that corporate entitites, given the title of persons by strange power in our courts and society, can be left unregulated, unchecked as guarantors of honest scales, of clean water, clean air, then you haven't the radicalism of a reformer... you have the rabid eye of the zealot, who ends up destroying tolerance and freedom with blind zeal. By the way, have you lately read the statistics for miners killed in union mines as opposed to non-union mines, when compared over the last fifty years? It's interesting, Hoot. Of course, it does sort of collide with your worldview, which, it seems to me, means you'll ignore it or discount it without a fair hearing. Typical.

Do you have those stats. handy? I would be very interested in seeing them. Personally I think it would be unfair to go back fifty years. I think thirty years would give a better indicator.

After you compare union vs non union fatalities, it would be interesting to compare fatalities per man hours work in unions vs non union mines.

[Hoot Gibson]

I would be shocked if Massey's managers and production workers do not receive sizable safety bonuses based safety benchmarks such as the mine's lost time accident rate.

Companies recognize that a good safety record has a very positive impact on their bottom lines. I do not know whether union UMWA contracts provide for safety bonuses or not. They were not part of the BCOA contracts back in the 80s but newer contracts might include them.

[Old School]

From WSAZ
UPDATE @ 3:54p.m. Sunday
MONTCOAL, W.Va. (WSAZ) -- For the fourth time rescue efforts have had to stop at the Upper Big Branch Mine in Raleigh County.
According to spokeswoman Jama Jarrett, the effort was halted because of high levels of gas in the Head Gate 22 Section.
Jarret goes on to say, "All but nine bodies have been removed; the remaining are in the previously mentioned section."

Ventilation efforts are being made so rescuers can safely return underground to recover the remaining miners.


Hopefully the rescue crews will be able to recover the remaining 9 miners.

[Joe Friday]

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoZK0IvE-Z8"]YouTube- Charleston, WV, Defeats Westboro Baptist Church with Love[/nomedia]

I am not from a mining family but I have the utmost respect for miners and their families. It goes without saying that the loss of the 29 miners is a tragedy. However, adding to the tragedy was the Westboro Baptist 'Cult' showing up to protest in Charleston, WV. I found this video of West Virginians and some others taking care of their own. Particularly heart warming was the 'Take Me Home Country Roads' song and line dance that took the focus away from the Westboro 'church' members at the end of the video.

[thecavemaster]

From WSAZ
UPDATE @ 3:54p.m. Sunday
MONTCOAL, W.Va. (WSAZ) -- For the fourth time rescue efforts have had to stop at the Upper Big Branch Mine in Raleigh County.
According to spokeswoman Jama Jarrett, the effort was halted because of high levels of gas in the Head Gate 22 Section.
Jarret goes on to say, "All but nine bodies have been removed; the remaining are in the previously mentioned section."

Ventilation efforts are being made so rescuers can safely return underground to recover the remaining miners.


Hopefully the rescue crews will be able to recover the remaining 9 miners.

From Unionstats.com (compiled by two university professors...one at Trinity, the other at Georgia State I believe)...

2006-2009 Union mines accounted for 10, 6, 10, and 5%, respectively, of all coal mine deaths for those years...unionized miners appear to have been one-fourth to one-half as likely to be killed in mine accidents as their non-union peers.

[Old School]

From Unionstats.com (compiled by two university professors...one at Trinity, the other at Georgia State I believe)...

2006-2009 Union mines accounted for 10, 6, 10, and 5%, respectively, of all coal mine deaths for those years...unionized miners appear to have been one-fourth to one-half as likely to be killed in mine accidents as their non-union peers.

I was unable to find the information you cited, however I was able to find these numbers. According to the U.S. Information Administration latest report only 27% of underground miners are members of the UMWA. While only 16% of surface miners are members of the UMWA.

Another article reported that 21% of coal mine fatalities happened in union mines as compared to 79% in non union mines. Now you compare 23% percent of the miners who are union members, and 21% of fatalities happen in union mines. IMO if you compare the number of fatalities against hours worked in union mines against non union mines it would be about the same.