[Matman]

Obama has said green industries such as Celgard are the future. I like to see new industries, especially greener ones, open up. I hate to see coal die without a replacement. What industries are suited to this area that are considered green? How can we take advantage of this government aid? I know right here in Martin county they have developed a biomass plant. It turns trash into energy. Came from a local man who was invested in coal. We can all follow his lead by thinking outside the box. So what are your ideas? What are your thoughts on Celgard?

[Old School]

Coal can't die without a replacement period. I've been saying that for years, I know that coal will not last forever, but it needs to be phased out slowly as other energy's are developed. However before we kill it we have to find a replacement for it, I don't think wind and solar alone are the answers. As a country we have to not only maintain our energy demands, but increase our energy output.

I'm not familar with Celgard or their products, but according to an excerpt from the article below Celgard has expanded to South Korea. Celgard's parent company Polypore lost $117 million last year and is in debt to a tune of $803 million.

In 2008, Pulwer told an industry trade publication he was excited about the opportunity car batteries presented. He noticed that every carmaker at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit "had a display on the auto floor with power packs and lithium-ion batteries," according to the article in Chemical & Engineering News.

A recent company filing said the lithium battery market is expected to grow 10 percent annually, driven in part by the demand for hybrid electric cars.
And in recent years, the company has been buying competitors - though its debt has grown.

In 2008, Celgard spent $18million to expand its Charlotte site. It also bought a site in South Korea for $23 million and announced last month it will spend $30 million to expand it.

This year, with help from a $49 million federal stimulus grant, Celgard announced plans to invest $91 million to expand its Charlotte facility, creating 80 jobs, and build a new plant in Concord, adding 209 workers by the end of 2014. The overall average wage will be $56,960, plus benefits.

Celgard's parent company doesn't break out the division's financial data. But Polypore lost $117 million last fiscal year and has "consolidated indebtedness" of $803 million.

[notamoocher]

This year, with help from a $49 million federal stimulus grant, Celgard announced plans to invest $91 million to expand its Charlotte facility, creating 80 jobs, and build a new plant in Concord, adding 209 workers by the end of 2014. The overall average wage will be $56,960, plus benefits.
Another successful Obama business

[Matman]

This year, with help from a $49 million federal stimulus grant, Celgard announced plans to invest $91 million to expand its Charlotte facility, creating 80 jobs, and build a new plant in Concord, adding 209 workers by the end of 2014. The overall average wage will be $56,960, plus benefits.
Another successful Obama business

What other successful businesses has Obama helped. I would say this is a good investment. While i do not know much about the company or thier past, I do like seeing more technology and manufacturing jobs here in the US. Its sad when the only jobs we have are retail. They said this investment takes us from 2 percent of the worlds batteries to 40 percent. Seems like a good start. So what other technologies would you like to see increased?

[Matman]

Coal can't die without a replacement period. I've been saying that for years, I know that coal will not last forever, but it needs to be phased out slowly as other energy's are developed. However before we kill it we have to find a replacement for it, I don't think wind and solar alone are the answers. As a country we have to not only maintain our energy demands, but increase our energy output.

I'm not familar with Celgard or their products, but according to an excerpt from the article below Celgard has expanded to South Korea. Celgard's parent company Polypore lost $117 million last year and is in debt to a tune of $803 million.

In 2008, Pulwer told an industry trade publication he was excited about the opportunity car batteries presented. He noticed that every carmaker at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit "had a display on the auto floor with power packs and lithium-ion batteries," according to the article in Chemical & Engineering News.

A recent company filing said the lithium battery market is expected to grow 10 percent annually, driven in part by the demand for hybrid electric cars.
And in recent years, the company has been buying competitors - though its debt has grown.

In 2008, Celgard spent $18million to expand its Charlotte site. It also bought a site in South Korea for $23 million and announced last month it will spend $30 million to expand it.

This year, with help from a $49 million federal stimulus grant, Celgard announced plans to invest $91 million to expand its Charlotte facility, creating 80 jobs, and build a new plant in Concord, adding 209 workers by the end of 2014. The overall average wage will be $56,960, plus benefits.

Celgard's parent company doesn't break out the division's financial data. But Polypore lost $117 million last fiscal year and has "consolidated indebtedness" of $803 million.

I agree. Coal can not die without a replacement. However what i find equally important is that the replacement be made/harvested/manufactured/processed in the coal producing areas. Thats why i mentioned the biomass. There are plans to overhaul some existing coal technologies to become biomass plants.

[Hoot Gibson]

Pouring government money into private businesses is never a good investment. It is far better to simply keep taxes and regulations to the minimum necessary levels and let private businesses compete with each other. The free market does a much, much better job of picking winners and losers than politicians like Obama are capable of doing.

"Stimulus" grants to a company that was already $803 million in debt is not a good idea, IMO. What was the real motivation behind the grant? Does Celgard have competitors who are more profitable, perhaps in a Republican Congressional district? Does the grant make it more likely that Charlotte (which is narrowly Democratic) will vote for Obama in 2012 and would Celgard have received the grant had the city voted 60 percent Republican? Will the company's CEO, an Obama supporter, be appointed to some position in Obama's administration?

These are the types of questions that must be asked whenever the federal government "invests" in a private company.

Ethanol is a great example of how government does more harm than good when it tries to pick winners and losers. Originally, ethanol was supposed to be a clean alternative to gasoline. In reality, ethanol may produce worse pollutants than gasoline and the plants that produce ethanol also produce much more pollutants, including some carcinogens, than were anticipated. So, the federal government is subsidizing a fuel that is at least as dirty as gasoline, which costs more than gasoline to produce, and can actually damage engines.

[INDENT]

Study Says Ethanol Pollution Could Rival Gas

April 18, 2007
A new study from Stanford University suggests that pollution from ethanol could be even worse than from traditional gasoline. Study author Mark Jacobson, of Stanford's department of civil and environmental engineering, explains.

[/INDENT]

One of the reasons that I believe that Obama and his fellow socialists are trying to destroy the private economy is the assault on the coal and oil industries. Electric engines may be a fine idea provided that charging stations become conveniently available for longer trips, but if the nation switches to electric cars, where will all of the additional electricity come from to meet the greatly increased demand?

There is currently no viable alternative to coal and nuclear power plants. Obama has closed this nation's only nuclear waste facility, so he does not seem to be serious about expanding our nuclear energy capacity. Coal is under attack by Obama. Spain's attempt to increase its wind-generated electrical capacity has been a disaster and it has damaged Spain's economy and made Spain a leading candidate to become Europe's next Greece. Wind energy is not ready for prime time, so from where will the additional power for electric vehicles come?

Simultaneously destroying our conventional electrical energy producing capacity while aggressively pursuing the adoption of electric cars that will increase electrical consumption cannot have a positive impact on the economy.

"Investment," when used by charlatans like Obama is nothing but a euphemism for taxing and redistributing wealth.

[notamoocher]

I agree. Coal can not die without a replacement. However what i find equally important is that the replacement be made/harvested/manufactured/processed in the coal producing areas. Thats why i mentioned the biomass. There are plans to overhaul some existing coal technologies to become biomass plants.

I am currently reading a book about Montana. Here's a quote from that book"Several decades ago Montana was among the top 10 U.S. states in per-capita income; now, it stands 49 out of 50, because of the decline of the extraction industries (logging, coal, mines, oil, and gas). I understand what you are saying about replacing coal mining jobs, I just think that there is no replacement at this time. I'm sure the people in Montana tried to come up with new kinds of jobs. They dropped to 49th in income. If coal is killed like Obama wants, remember his statements about coal, Montana might a good place to look for work compared to here.

[Matman]

I am currently reading a book about Montana. Here's a quote from that book"Several decades ago Montana was among the top 10 U.S. states in per-capita income; now, it stands 49 out of 50, because of the decline of the extraction industries (logging, coal, mines, oil, and gas). I understand what you are saying about replacing coal mining jobs, I just think that there is no replacement at this time. I'm sure the people in Montana tried to come up with new kinds of jobs. They dropped to 49th in income. If coal is killed like Obama wants, remember his statements about coal, Montana might a good place to look for work compared to here.

I agree 100%. However I'm not so sure they tried to replace those jobs. They probally tried harder to save the jobs. I know in this area there is not alot going on to save or build our economy. There are some exceptions. But not many.

[Matman]

Pouring government money into private businesses is never a good investment. It is far better to simply keep taxes and regulations to the minimum necessary levels and let private businesses compete with each other. The free market does a much, much better job of picking winners and losers than politicians like Obama are capable of doing.

"Stimulus" grants to a company that was already $803 million in debt is not a good idea, IMO. What was the real motivation behind the grant? Does Celgard have competitors who are more profitable, perhaps in a Republican Congressional district? Does the grant make it more likely that Charlotte (which is narrowly Democratic) will vote for Obama in 2012 and would Celgard have received the grant had the city voted 60 percent Republican? Will the company's CEO, an Obama supporter, be appointed to some position in Obama's administration?

These are the types of questions that must be asked whenever the federal government "invests" in a private company.

Ethanol is a great example of how government does more harm than good when it tries to pick winners and losers. Originally, ethanol was supposed to be a clean alternative to gasoline. In reality, ethanol may produce worse pollutants than gasoline and the plants that produce ethanol also produce much more pollutants, including some carcinogens, than were anticipated. So, the federal government is subsidizing a fuel that is at least as dirty as gasoline, which costs more than gasoline to produce, and can actually damage engines.

[INDENT][/INDENT]

One of the reasons that I believe that Obama and his fellow socialists are trying to destroy the private economy is the assault on the coal and oil industries. Electric engines may be a fine idea provided that charging stations become conveniently available for longer trips, but if the nation switches to electric cars, where will all of the additional electricity come from to meet the greatly increased demand?

There is currently no viable alternative to coal and nuclear power plants. Obama has closed this nation's only nuclear waste facility, so he does not seem to be serious about expanding our nuclear energy capacity. Coal is under attack by Obama. Spain's attempt to increase its wind-generated electrical capacity has been a disaster and it has damaged Spain's economy and made Spain a leading candidate to become Europe's next Greece. Wind energy is not ready for prime time, so from where will the additional power for electric vehicles come?

Simultaneously destroying our conventional electrical energy producing capacity while aggressively pursuing the adoption of electric cars that will increase electrical consumption cannot have a positive impact on the economy.

"Investment," when used by charlatans like Obama is nothing but a euphemism for taxing and redistributing wealth.

I disagree with the first part of your statement. I believe when the total social benifit and marginal social benifit per individual is greater than or equal to the cost than it is worthy of government funding. Grants should help usher us into new technologies. Grants should also allow businesses to adapt to new regulations. If Obama is going to shut down our coal production he should subsidize the industry. He should help us create a new industry. While i believe in capitalism we are not a pure capitalist market. We are a mixed market. However i agree with the main point of your post. Our elected officials are in no way experts. Most of them wouldn't be able to work at Wal-mart if it wasn't for the fact they come from wealthy privileged families. They do not have the experience, skills or knowledge to make some of these choices. This is where they need to work with the industries.

[Hoot Gibson]

I agree. Coal can not die without a replacement. However what i find equally important is that the replacement be made/harvested/manufactured/processed in the coal producing areas. Thats why i mentioned the biomass. There are plans to overhaul some existing coal technologies to become biomass plants.

As long as oil, gas, and coal are abundant and cheaper sources of energy than ethanol, regardless of whether the ethanol is produced from corn or some other organic material, it makes no sense for the government to subsidize ethanol production.

The purpose of Democrats restricting the production of domestic oil and coal is to drive the cost of these fuels upward to make fuels like ethanol and wind energy more competitive. The problem with the government creating such artificial shortages is that developing countries will continue to rely on the cheapest available energy sources.

Countries controlling large coal, gas, or oil reserves will enjoy a competitive advantage over industries in this country. Nations that have little or no energy sources of their own will see their standards of living plunge.

I agree that if this country must switch to ethanol, then it would be better for coal producing areas to locate the new plants in those areas but we have not reached that point yet. It is not too late to vote the idiots who are pursuing this self destructive strategy out of office, including Obama. It is too early to surrender on such an important issue.

Also, if and when biomass plants must be built, then they should be built as close as possible to the source of the biomass to minimize transportation costs. That means that most such plants would not be build in the Appalachians.

It is more efficient to ship a finished product over a long distance than to ship both the raw materials and finished products over long distances, which is why coal preparation plants are ideally located as close to the geographic center of the coal reserves that feed them.

[Matman]

As long as oil, gas, and coal are abundant and cheaper sources of energy than ethanol, regardless of whether the ethanol is produced from corn or some other organic material, it makes no sense for the government to subsidize ethanol production.

The purpose of Democrats restricting the production of domestic oil and coal is to drive the cost of these fuels upward to make fuels like ethanol and wind energy more competitive. The problem with the government creating such artificial shortages is that developing countries will continue to rely on the cheapest available energy sources.

Countries controlling large coal, gas, or oil reserves will enjoy a competitive advantage over industries in this country. Nations that have little or no energy sources of their own will see their standards of living plunge.

I agree that if this country must switch to ethanol, then it would be better for coal producing areas to locate the new plants in those areas but we have not reached that point yet. It is not too late to vote the idiots who are pursuing this self destructive strategy out of office, including Obama. It is too early to surrender on such an important issue.

Also, if and when biomass plants must be built, then they should be built as close as possible to the source of the biomass to minimize transportation costs. That means that most such plants would not be build in the Appalachians.

It is more efficient to ship a finished product over a long distance than to ship both the raw materials and finished products over long distances, which is why coal preparation plants are ideally located as close to the geographic center of the coal reserves that feed them.

I do not believe the answer is in ethanol. I dont know where it is. However i do believe government programs can help us find the answer. This area is perfect for biomass. We already receive a large portion of trash from other regions. The only plant in the country is here in this area. Even more importan is the fact that the patten for such a plant and disign is owned by a man here in Floyd county. The federal prison in martin county is also the only one in the country producing biodeisel. They have several peices of equipment that runs off biodeisel, even a transport bus. However they can not produce enough to make a trip to the hub in Atlanta yet. The production cost is less than 50 cents a gallon. They are now in negotiations with the biomass place in martin county.

[Hoot Gibson]

I do not believe the answer is in ethanol. I dont know where it is. However i do believe government programs can help us find the answer. This area is perfect for biomass. We already receive a large portion of trash from other regions. The only plant in the country is here in this area. Even more importan is the fact that the patten for such a plant and disign is owned by a man here in Floyd county. The federal prison in martin county is also the only one in the country producing biodeisel. They have several peices of equipment that runs off biodeisel, even a transport bus. However they can not produce enough to make a trip to the hub in Atlanta yet. The production cost is less than 50 cents a gallon. They are now in negotiations with the biomass place in martin county.

Why do you think eastern Kentucky is a perfect are for biomass production? Does it not stand to reason that this industry will be located where the growing season is the longest and soil the most fertile to produce sawgrass or whatever plant will be used to produce ethanol?

If small scale production of biodiesel is economically feasible at the prison, that is great, but based on your post, it is doubtful that there is enough raw material (fast food grease?) available to support the prison's diesel requirements let alone produce biodiesel for resale.

The wrong reason to locate any industry in a particular region is because the people there need jobs. Yet, the government attempts to lure manufacturers to particular areas to provide jobs for political reasons using tax breaks for an incentive. That kind of backward thinking is why our economy is in such a mess.

People are, or should be somewhat mobile, and they should move to fill available jobs. Alternatively, people can identify areas in which their area enjoys a natural competitive advantage over other regions and create businesses to meet a real economic need.

When people like Barack Obama and his radical accomplices, none of whom really understands capitalism or believes in free markets, interject themselves into the nation's private economy, no good can come of it. Don't believe the propaganda coming out of Washington. The Obama regime is not creating jobs, its policies are destroying them.

[Matman]

Why do you think eastern Kentucky is a perfect are for biomass production? Does it not stand to reason that this industry will be located where the growing season is the longest and soil the most fertile to produce sawgrass or whatever plant will be used to produce ethanol?

If small scale production of biodiesel is economically feasible at the prison, that is great, but based on your post, it is doubtful that there is enough raw material (fast food grease?) available to support the prison's diesel requirements let alone produce biodiesel for resale.

The wrong reason to locate any industry in a particular region is because the people there need jobs. Yet, the government attempts to lure manufacturers to particular areas to provide jobs for political reasons using tax breaks for an incentive. That kind of backward thinking is why our economy is in such a mess.

People are, or should be somewhat mobile, and they should move to fill available jobs. Alternatively, people can identify areas in which their area enjoys a natural competitive advantage over other regions and create businesses to meet a real economic need.

When people like Barack Obama and his radical accomplices, none of whom really understands capitalism or believes in free markets, interject themselves into the nation's private economy, no good can come of it. Don't believe the propaganda coming out of Washington. The Obama regime is not creating jobs, its policies are destroying them.

I don't think you know what biomass is. You don't have to grow anything for biomass. It takes dead and decaying material and turns it into energy. This area would be great because we already recieve alot of trash from area's such as New Jersey. We also have large amounts of land to put these plants where they wont be close to residents.
Biodeisel is good for the prison but not good enough. Your thinking too narrow. Like i said it hasnt decreased our need for fuel on a large scale. Things such as transports that have to go through the hub in Atlanta isnt yet possible. However replacing the mowers and the small vehicles used to get around the complex with biodeisel is a huge step. For the prison its about getting people trained to make it. The inmates in the camp outside of the USP are used. They usually have short terms and a high turnover.
But the main point of my post isnt to support these two types of energy its to open up discussion about many types of alternative green energy industries.

[Hoot Gibson]

I don't think you know what biomass is. You don't have to grow anything for biomass. It takes dead and decaying material and turns it into energy. This area would be great because we already recieve alot of trash from area's such as New Jersey. We also have large amounts of land to put these plants where they wont be close to residents.
Biodeisel is good for the prison but not good enough. Your thinking too narrow. Like i said it hasnt decreased our need for fuel on a large scale. Things such as transports that have to go through the hub in Atlanta isnt yet possible. However replacing the mowers and the small vehicles used to get around the complex with biodeisel is a huge step. For the prison its about getting people trained to make it. The inmates in the camp outside of the USP are used. They usually have short terms and a high turnover.
But the main point of my post isnt to support these two types of energy its to open up discussion about many types of alternative green energy industries.

Yes, I know what biomass is. It is any living or recently dead organism, and used in this context it is anything that can be converted to to a usable fuel - such as biodiesel or alcohol. I realize that corrupt eastern Kentucky politicians have tried to turn the area into a landfill for medical waste and other garbage from the east coast, but I oppose the importation of out-of-state garbage.

Common sense would dictate that a biofuels industry be located closer to the source of fuel, whether that fuel is corn, sawgrass, switchgrass, or restaurant garbage. Eastern Kentucky does not have the population density or long growing season to become a major producer of biofuels - certainly not on the scale to replace the coal mining jobs that Obama is destroying.

This nation has at least 200 to 300 years of coal reserves available in addition to abundant oil shale resources and there is no sane reason for our own federal government to be trying to prevent us from utilizing those resources. The "greening" of America by the left is not about meeting an energy shortfall or producing "clean energy" (remember ethanol does not burn cleaner than gasoline), it is about top-down control of the economy.

Alternative fuels, if they are viable, would naturally replace traditional energy sources as the cost of coal, oil, and gas rise as they become more scarce - without government meddling in the free market.

[Matman]

Yes, I know what biomass is. It is any living or recently dead organism, and used in this context it is anything that can be converted to to a usable fuel - such as biodiesel or alcohol. I realize that corrupt eastern Kentucky politicians have tried to turn the area into a landfill for medical waste and other garbage from the east coast, but I oppose the importation of out-of-state garbage.

Common sense would dictate that a biofuels industry be located closer to the source of fuel, whether that fuel is corn, sawgrass, switchgrass, or restaurant garbage. Eastern Kentucky does not have the population density or long growing season to become a major producer of biofuels - certainly not on the scale to replace the coal mining jobs that Obama is destroying.

This nation has at least 200 to 300 years of coal reserves available in addition to abundant oil shale resources and there is no sane reason for our own federal government to be trying to prevent us from utilizing those resources. The "greening" of America by the left is not about meeting an energy shortfall or producing "clean energy" (remember ethanol does not burn cleaner than gasoline), it is about top-down control of the economy.

Alternative fuels, if they are viable, would naturally replace traditional energy sources as the cost of coal, oil, and gas rise as they become more scarce - without government meddling in the free market.

You do not know much about biomass. Anyone can look it up on the internet and find a definition. Do you realize one of the only biomass plants in the country is right here in eastern ky. It is already here. It uses garbage. The garbage we already produce. The garbage that is already going to landfills. Its here. You can speculate all you want but its already working.

[Hoot Gibson]

You do not know much about biomass. Anyone can look it up on the internet and find a definition. Do you realize one of the only biomass plants in the country is right here in eastern ky. It is already here. It uses garbage. The garbage we already produce. The garbage that is already going to landfills. Its here. You can speculate all you want but its already working.

I attempted to respond to your PM but the feature is not working for some reason and I tried with two browsers. I will reboot and try again later.

If people are turning a profit without an infusion of federal cash, then I will be among the first to salute them - and I will be among the first to ask why subsidies are necessary if the technology is already cost competitive with conventional fuels.

[Old School]

There are people trying to shutdown the coal industry, because they claim coal mining is destroying our water supply, while others are trying to bring out of state trash into our region for landfill's or to use for biomass production. It seems to me that these landfills would create more water problems.

[Matman]

There are people trying to shutdown the coal industry, because they claim coal mining is destroying our water supply, while others are trying to bring out of state trash into our region for landfill's or to use for biomass production. It seems to me that these landfills would create more water problems.

The trash is not being brought here for biomass plants. The trash is already here. It what we produce and what some politicians have taken in. The biomass plants are something to get rid of our own trash. It does not go to landfills either.
I agree that it is better for an industry to be successful without government intervention. However i bring this up to ask the question of how we can take advantage of these types of programs to improve our economy. The biomass plant i was speaking of has not accepted any federal or state money.