[Wildcatk23]

Although the United States Government chooses to be 'godless'.. The states you live in don't. All 50 states reference God in their constitutions. Some even require that you believe in god to be a witness in a trial, or even to hold office. The federal government wasn't in the business of religion, but to promise the freedom of. Your state, and all others had the 'god given' right though... to act otherwise. And they did.

Let me make it clear, i'm a seperations kinda guy. I despise 'god' in the context of politics. If God wanted to be injected into a healthcare debate between two people in congress who probably are already cheating on their wives, and aborting the children they would have out of wedlock... then he would do it himself.

I personally don't feel that I need God to choose my political beliefs. In fact, I'm somewhat scared that he'd end up walking away shaking his head on some of the things I stand for.

I dont disagree with anything you said. Just saying that are country was not founded on Christian morals.

[hawg laig]

As Americans they have the right to put up the billboard and as an American I have the right to ignore it.
As a Christian I have the responsibility to pray for those who errected it and for those who see it.

[Stardust]

As Americans they have the right to put up the billboard and as an American I have the right to ignore it.
As a Christian I have the responsibility to pray for those who errected it and for those who see it.

Now that my friends is an AWESOME POST! :worthy:

[cougarpride08]

God fearing ,means deeply religious,devout !!! I dont think I said that God or religion would save us from a corrupt government, and your right this country isn't ran on religion, but I do think that if our leaders put god into the equation, and done the right things, this would be a better country, as it is we have a bunch of infidels, running our government, therefore the corruption!!! Well we are all unworthy of the sacrifice, that was made on our behalf, but we all have to have god to get through this world, even the people that are putting up these billboards, they will eventually ,at some point,need God !!!!!! JMO

AMEN!Great Quote! Raising my hand in the air.

I dont see how putting god into the equation would help. Im sorry.

I will pray for you wildcat that one day you will. It is the greatest feeling in the world to have God first in everything. When you do that, everything else is gravy.

Now that my friends is an AWESOME POST! :worthy:

Couldn't agree more!

[padd4pirate]

I dont disagree with anything you said. Just saying that are country was not founded on Christian morals.

James Madison the chief architect of the constitution wrote:We have staked the whole future of American civilization,not upon the power of government,far from it,We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government;upon the capacity of each and all of us to self-govern ourselves,accordind to the ten comandments of GOD

[Wildcatk23]

The US Constitution does not mention the word "God" even once. It doesn't mention Christianity or Jesus. Actually, the only reference in the Constitution to religion of ANY sort is in a small article which states that no religious test shall be administered to one seeking public office.

[padd4pirate]

The US Constitution does not mention the word "God" even once. It doesn't mention Christianity or Jesus. Actually, the only reference in the Constitution to religion of ANY sort is in a small article which states that no religious test shall be administered to one seeking public office.

where do you think law came from ????????????????

[Wildcatk23]

Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority.

[congressman]

Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority.

He also writes that its the rights given by God.. in the very document you are talking about. Wildcatk23, I agree with you that this isn't a 'christian' nation. But your arguements need A LOT of work before they can be effective. As of now, you aren't changing any minds... nor will you. And if thats your goal... I suggest you study the facts, the quotes, and the people in order to build a better understanding of what you're talking about.

Knowing what you believe is one thing... Knowing why, and why not, is a completely different thing.

Madison makes it clear that this government is a government only adaequet for a Christian people.. Why is that? Jefferson mentions "god" a few times in his declaration of independence. Why is that? These are the questions you need to answer before you can try to convince others why you may be right.

[TidesHoss32]

As Americans they have the right to put up the billboard and as an American I have the right to ignore it.
As a Christian I have the responsibility to pray for those who errected it and for those who see it.

If Ive ever seen a 5 star post on Bluegrassrivals, this is it. Great post HL:Thumbs:

[Wildcatk23]

He also writes that its the rights given by God.. in the very document you are talking about. Wildcatk23, I agree with you that this isn't a 'christian' nation. But your arguements need A LOT of work before they can be effective. As of now, you aren't changing any minds... nor will you. And if thats your goal... I suggest you study the facts, the quotes, and the people in order to build a better understanding of what you're talking about.

Knowing what you believe is one thing... Knowing why, and why not, is a completely different thing.

Madison makes it clear that this government is a government only adaequet for a Christian people.. Why is that? Jefferson mentions "god" a few times in his declaration of independence. Why is that? These are the questions you need to answer before you can try to convince others why you may be right.

I'm not trying to change anyones mind. This isn't a religious discussion, I'm just making it clear that this country wasn't found on Christian morals.


Madison's most famous statement on behalf of religious liberty was his Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, which he wrote to oppose a bill that would have authorized tax support for Christian ministers in the state of Virginia.
Other sources for Madison's beliefs are his letter to Jasper Adams, where he argues on behalf of letting religion survive on its own merits, and a 1792 article in which he suggests that there is no specific religious sanction for American government.

No matter how hard conservative apologists for the Christian Right try, they cannot locate endorsements of religion, God, theism, or Christianity in the Constitution. At no point does the Constitution exhibit anything less than a fully secular, godless character. The American Constitution was a novel experiment in the creation of a secular government on the basis of popular sovereignty and democratic principles.

[Wildcatk23]

For these men to just come out and say that they was atheist would have ruined their reputation. Jefferson considered himself a deist; he also considered himself a follower of Jesus. This is not a contradiction, in Jefferson's view, because he believed Jesus to be merely human, not divine, and believed the precepts Jesus taught to be deistical. Much of traditional Christianity, Jefferson claimed, was error and corruption added by later followers of Jesus.


I'm majoring in history and plan on becoming a history teacher. I'm loving this conversation.

And if your wondering if im trying to change anyones religion then NO! I would never try and do such a thing. I know that i have a lot to learn in this world and should really be looking for some guidance, i tryed this once, didnt seem to help. In the state of a non believer i have a great life, Love,Family,Work, and just happiness. In the state of a christian i'm lost, a quote from a pastor that comes in every sunday and we talk "Josh you may have everything you ever wanted now and im happy for you, but you cant take it with you when your time is up."

[congressman]

I'm not trying to change anyones mind. This isn't a religious discussion, I'm just making it clear that this country wasn't found on Christian morals.


Madison's most famous statement on behalf of religious liberty was his Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, which he wrote to oppose a bill that would have authorized tax support for Christian ministers in the state of Virginia.
Other sources for Madison's beliefs are his letter to Jasper Adams, where he argues on behalf of letting religion survive on its own merits, and a 1792 article in which he suggests that there is no specific religious sanction for American government.

No matter how hard conservative apologists for the Christian Right try, they cannot locate endorsements of religion, God, theism, or Christianity in the Constitution. At no point does the Constitution exhibit anything less than a fully secular, godless character. The American Constitution was a novel experiment in the creation of a secular government on the basis of popular sovereignty and democratic principles.

I think you missed my point completely. You referenced the declaration as being unique, although it points toward anything other than a Godless nation. The belief that kings get their power from god has been universally held up until this point, and through the forming a new nation, this would be changed to a popular government. But what we see, is that Washington was offered a monarchy himself. Thus, not being radically different than the pre-USA governments. He declined, thankfully.

Now, if you do your studying, you'll come to realize what this federal government is... its a union between sovereign states. Of which, all 50 now point to God in their constitutions. The reason the federal government isn't involved in religion, is because all the states were and most likely always will be. The premise of my post, is that you're arguement at best, is weak. At worst, horrible.

To say that this nation wasn't founded as a christian nation, is somewhat misleading. You can realistically say that the federal government however isn't in the business of religion, or the union between the states aren't 'christian bonds'. But the founders of the states, intended it to be a christian 'nation'. They just kept it out of the federal aspect, because all the states had already done it. There is no need for the fed gov to restate a position already held in the hearts, minds, and votes of the people.

[padd4pirate]

I think you missed my point completely. You referenced the declaration as being unique, although it points toward anything other than a Godless nation. The belief that kings get their power from god has been universally held up until this point, and through the forming a new nation, this would be changed to a popular government. But what we see, is that Washington was offered a monarchy himself. Thus, not being radically different than the pre-USA governments. He declined, thankfully.

Now, if you do your studying, you'll come to realize what this federal government is... its a union between sovereign states. Of which, all 50 now point to God in their constitutions. The reason the federal government isn't involved in religion, is because all the states were and most likely always will be. The premise of my post, is that you're arguement at best, is weak. At worst, horrible.

To say that this nation wasn't founded as a christian nation, is somewhat misleading. You can realistically say that the federal government however isn't in the business of religion, or the union between the states aren't 'christian bonds'. But the founders of the states, intended it to be a christian 'nation'. They just kept it out of the federal aspect, because all the states had already done it. There is no need for the fed gov to restate a position already held in the hearts, minds, and votes of the people.

I agree with you idealism 100%:Clap:

[Beetle01]

I find it hilarious when people usch as wildcatk just ignore obvious facts to back their agenda or beliefs.

Our country was founded as a Christian nation, it is meant to be ran as a Christian nation. Even Jefferson himself stated that our nation was designed for Christians and is meant to be ran by Christians, otherwise it would fail. As we are seeing now.

The reason religion is left out of govt dealings was to prevent there ever being a recognized religion in this country taking hold like it had in Europe. Even though it was a country for Christians, they wanted to ensure everyone was free to do as they wished here. That there could be no forced religion upon anyone, which most people today agree with.

I dont care if some atheists put up a billboard, if that billboard changes someones views on Jesus and God, then they were not strong enough in their views to begin with.

All these people who put the billboard up want is attention. They dont care about anything else other than garnering some national attention.


PS I also enjoy how people who oppose God being involved in out govt, only quote a handful if that many founding fathers. When most who were involved in the founding of our country were deeply religious Christians. But since a couple werent, all of the sudden no one was.

[Stardust]

I find it hilarious when people usch as wildcatk just ignore obvious facts to back their agenda or beliefs.

Our country was founded as a Christian nation, it is meant to be ran as a Christian nation. Even Jefferson himself stated that our nation was designed for Christians and is meant to be ran by Christians, otherwise it would fail. As we are seeing now.

The reason religion is left out of govt dealings was to prevent there ever being a recognized religion in this country taking hold like it had in Europe. Even though it was a country for Christians, they wanted to ensure everyone was free to do as they wished here. That there could be no forced religion upon anyone, which most people today agree with.

I dont care if some atheists put up a billboard, if that billboard changes someones views on Jesus and God, then they were not strong enough in their views to begin with.

All these people who put the billboard up want is attention. They dont care about anything else other than garnering some national attention.


PS I also enjoy how people who oppose God being involved in out govt, only quote a handful if that many founding fathers. When most who were involved in the founding of our country were deeply religious Christians. But since a couple werent, all of the sudden no one was.

I have no problem with wildcatk's position or belief. He is entitled to his opinion, and he will live a life based on his own beliefs. Jesus did not beat anyone over the head to make them believe in his message. I'm not here to make anyone believe what I beleive, or live the life that I feel that I am supposed to live. If you beleive in God, you then beleive in the responsibilities of your life. If you do not beleive in God, then your expectations allow you to live a life that provides your own level of hope at the end of life. In either case, my responsibility is to me, thus I don't care what someone else expects of me.

[Stardust]

Money if a Federally regulated and produced product. "In God We Trust" must have been on the minds of someone at the Federal level.

[Matman]

I disagree, the lack of God fearing, Bible believing, praying people in this country, has lead us down the path to moral decay, when you look around and people are trying to remove God from everything, we have no choice but to fall apart !!!!!!

If fear is your reason for believing in God then I believe you are missing the point. Theres no greater turn off than a minister preaching ****, fire and brimstone to the believer. I have no need for the knowledge of the after life that awaits the ****ed. I rather learn about God's love. I also believe in free will and morality. Morality should be the lesson you take from the Bible not fear. If you spread God's love out of moral obligation then you spread it for the better of mankind. If you spread it out of fear you selfishly spread it for oneself.

[Matman]

I say leave the body(to include the brain) for science, the mind(soul, the very thought of existance) for religion, and politics for those who don't have either.

[lil dog]

If fear is your reason for believing in God then I believe you are missing the point. Theres no greater turn off than a minister preaching ****, fire and brimstone to the believer. I have no need for the knowledge of the after life that awaits the ****ed. I rather learn about God's love. I also believe in free will and morality. Morality should be the lesson you take from the Bible not fear. If you spread God's love out of moral obligation then you spread it for the better of mankind. If you spread it out of fear you selfishly spread it for oneself.

Well, My friend you evidently did not read my previous post, where I put the definition of "God fearing" , so if you would read that, you might understand that what I was talking about, was a deeply religious person, and thanks on the lesson on what I should take from the bible, as for gods love yes thats always a great thing to hear, If the pastor or minister gets up and preaches , **** fire and brimstone, then that shouldnt be a turn off, because he gets his message from god, so evidently god seen the need for that message to be preached, so if that turns you off then you may be the one in need of that message !!!!!!!

[Matman]

Well, My friend you evidently did not read my previous post, where I put the definition of "God fearing" , so if you would read that, you might understand that what I was talking about, was a deeply religious person, and thanks on the lesson on what I should take from the bible, as for gods love yes thats always a great thing to hear, If the pastor or minister gets up and preaches , **** fire and brimstone, then that shouldnt be a turn off, because he gets his message from god, so evidently god seen the need for that message to be preached, so if that turns you off then you may be the one in need of that message !!!!!!!

I seen where you attempted to redefine the terms so that they suit your message. However fear does not make one devout. All Christian Churches does not preach the devastation God can bring. Does that make them wrong? I prefer the teachings of Jesus and love to that of fear.

[lil dog]

I seen where you attempted to redefine the terms so that they suit your message. However fear does not make one devout. All Christian Churches does not preach the devastation God can bring. Does that make them wrong? I prefer the teachings of Jesus and love to that of fear.

No my friend , if you look up the definition, of "God fearing" you will see I did not redefine any terms!!!! I'm not saying these churches are wrong, all I will say is if you take the love part of the bible , then you HAVE to take the other parts as well, you can not just take the parts that you like and dis card the rest !!! Well this has gotten off topic, so I guess we should save this argument for another thread!!!!!!!

[Aslan]

I disagree, the lack of God fearing, Bible believing, praying people in this country, has lead us down the path to moral decay, when you look around and people are trying to remove God from everything, we have no choice but to fall apart !!!!!!

:thumpsup:

[thecavemaster]

No my friend , if you look up the definition, of "God fearing" you will see I did not redefine any terms!!!! I'm not saying these churches are wrong, all I will say is if you take the love part of the bible , then you HAVE to take the other parts as well, you can not just take the parts that you like and dis card the rest !!! Well this has gotten off topic, so I guess we should save this argument for another thread!!!!!!!

If "god is spirit" and "god is love" (both overt and clear teachings of the NT), then "god is a spirit of love." If that's who "god" is, what other message is there? "Well, that may be true, but there's parts in the bible that contradict it." Ain't it the truth?

[TheRealVille]

Edit: Didn't realize this was in the politics section.

[Wildcatk23]

I find it hilarious when people usch as wildcatk just ignore obvious facts to back their agenda or beliefs.

Our country was founded as a Christian nation, it is meant to be ran as a Christian nation. Even Jefferson himself stated that our nation was designed for Christians and is meant to be ran by Christians, otherwise it would fail. As we are seeing now.

The reason religion is left out of govt dealings was to prevent there ever being a recognized religion in this country taking hold like it had in Europe. Even though it was a country for Christians, they wanted to ensure everyone was free to do as they wished here. That there could be no forced religion upon anyone, which most people today agree with.

I dont care if some atheists put up a billboard, if that billboard changes someones views on Jesus and God, then they were not strong enough in their views to begin with.

All these people who put the billboard up want is attention. They dont care about anything else other than garnering some national attention.


PS I also enjoy how people who oppose God being involved in out govt, only quote a handful if that many founding fathers. When most who were involved in the founding of our country were deeply religious Christians. But since a couple werent, all of the sudden no one was.

Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public, but at times he would speak to and reflect upon the public dimension of religion. He was raised as an Anglican, but was influenced by English deists such as Bolingbroke and Shaftesbury. Thus in the spirit of the Enlightenment, he made the following recommendation to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787: "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." In Query XVII of Notes on the State of Virginia, he clearly outlines the views which led him to play a leading role in the campaign to separate church and state and which culminated in the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom: "The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg . . . . Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error." Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.

And how am i ignoring the obvious facts? We are all posting facts from over 200+ years. How do we actually know what happened.