[TheRealVille]

We must face the fact, that most conservatives hate, that all of coals problems aren't caused by Obama. I am also, not on this issue, becoming less of an Obama fan. He is screwing up much worse in other areas.

[TheRealVille]

The damage that Obama is doing to this nation's energy security is long term. Obama's economic policies, which he predicted would keep unemployment from reaching 8 percent, will continue to depress the coal market.

Pulling more than 70 surface mine permit applications from consideration will have a devastating impact on the economy of Appalachia beginning in three to five years. Anybody who thinks otherwise does not understand the US coal market or the mining process.

In most cases, mining companies do not have a choice between deep mining or surface mining. Economics and geologic conditions dictate which mining method is feasible for a given reserves. The environmental wackos who have taken control of the federal agencies that regulate mining would like the general public to believe that companies will simply deep mine reserves if mountain top removal methods are banned. That simply is not the case.

Even when it is feasible to either deep mine or strip a block of coal reserves, stripping results in a much higher recovery rate. Deep mining a surface minable reserve wastes a valuable natural resource. Typical recovery rates for mountain top removal mining is 85 to 90 percent versus 50 to 60 percent for room and pillar mining.

But, right now, most of the problem for coal companies are low prices.

[TheRealVille]

http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapita...tural-gas/

So, if gas is cheaper, should powerhouses use coal if it is higher cost? And is this the fault of Obama and the EPA?

[CatDawg]

Here's yet another good story about gas vs coal.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_13622551

[TheRealVille]

Here's yet another good story about gas vs coal.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_13622551

Again, is the cost of gas compared to coal, Obama or the EPA's fault? And again, I am becoming less of an Obama fan, but not due to this issue. From your link,....

The off-a-cliff drop in natural-gas prices in the past 10 months created one bonus — it made gas cheap enough to grab some market share from coal.

Since late winter, electric utilities have been switching from coal to gas, said Robert Roth, the PIRA Energy Group's senior director for North American coal.

"Natural-gas prices fell more quickly than coal prices," he said. "That drove the fuel-switching."

The reason for the switch is that about 50 percent of natural gas is bought on spot or short-term markets, while up to 90 percent of coal is bought via annual or two-year contracts, Roth said.

[Old School]

But right now it is the low cost, as is well established with overstocking of the power companies. It must not have anything to do with the EPA or contracts or the power companies stockpiles would be low. Low cost of coal is why they are overstocking right now, and why a lot of mines are shutting down. Low coal prices.

Not all coal companies have the luxury of having 3 and 4 years of permits in their back pocket, and for the ones that do have permits, my only hope is that they have already built their ponds and started the valley fills.

Also, not all coal companies sell solely by contracts, some do, some sell exclusively on the spot market and some sells are both contract and the spot market.

If you worked for a Utility company would you sign a 18 month contract with a coal company that only had 12 months of reserves permitted.

[CatDawg]

The price of coal has been dropping since last summer when the economy first started falling apart. This area took about 6 months longer to be effected and it will take at least 6 months longer to turn around. Remember when it all started and prices were dropping on homes and no one could get a loan around the country but everyone around here was saying they couldn't see any difference. It was because coal was still going well. However, once everyone fell down to this area which was about 2 months after the auto industry was really hit we started seeing the same thing.

[CatDawg]

Not all coal companies have the luxury of having 3 and 4 years of permits in their back pocket, and for the ones that do have permits, my only hope is that they have already built their ponds and started the valley fills.

Also, not all coal companies sell solely by contracts, some do, some sell exclusively on the spot market and some sells are both contract and the spot market.

If you worked for a Utility company would you sign a 18 month contract with a coal company that only had 12 months of reserves permitted.

Great points.

[TheRealVille]

Not all coal companies have the luxury of having 3 and 4 years of permits in their back pocket, and for the ones that do have permits, my only hope is that they have already built their ponds and started the valley fills.

Also, not all coal companies sell solely by contracts, some do, some sell exclusively on the spot market and some sells are both contract and the spot market.

If you worked for a Utility company would you sign a 18 month contract with a coal company that only had 12 months of reserves permitted.

Gas sell cheaper without the contracts. Do you fault Obama and the EPA or the powerhouses that are buying the gas. The whole point is, conservatives will stop at nothing in the coal layoffs, to blame Obama and the EPA. It isn't their fault at present. It is cheap coal, (not being mined because of coal prices), and even cheaper gas, without contracts.

[Hoot Gibson]

But, right now, most of the problem for coal companies are low prices.

Coal is not like water and neither is oil. Democrats have already stopped the development of large American oil reserves and now they are working hard to destroy what was a healthy coal industry.

Coal prices always drop when there is an oversupply and there is always an oversupply during a recession. The Obama administration is having a large impact on the demand for coal by pushing cap and trade legislation and actively making it more difficult to obtain mining permits.

Obama promised to put companies determined to build new coal fired power plants out of business and he is making good on that promise. Anybody whose job depends on the coal industry, directly or indirectly, would be a fool to support this president's agenda. Eastern Kentucky is not going to be a pleasant place to live as the economy continues to shrink and jobs continue to disappear.

[CatDawg]

Some of it is due to the EPA. However, its not just Obamas administrations fault concerning the EPA. These permit hold ups are making the market even more unstable and it is hurting everyone that buys coal not just power plants. However, if these EPA issues had been addressed earlier i.e. under Bush we wouldn't be having this problem now. In other words is it Obamas fault for coming in and making the EPA do the job that they should have been doing for the past few years? I don't like it but I think what he has done so far is right. However, due to the other problems facing the industry this has made things even worse.

[TheRealVille]

If you worked for a Utility company would you sign a 18 month contract with a coal company that only had 12 months of reserves permitted.

Not when gas is cheaper. In the shape that coal is in, if they force an 18 month contract, they would be fools. The power companies can just as easily sign a contract for what the company can produce, say 12 months.

[TheRealVille]

Some of it is due to the EPA. However, its not just Obamas administrations fault concerning the EPA. These permit hold ups are making the market even more unstable and it is hurting everyone that buys coal not just power plants. However, if these EPA issues had been addressed earlier i.e. under Bush we wouldn't be having this problem now. In other words is it Obamas fault for coming in and making the EPA do the job that they should have been doing for the past few years? I don't like it but I think what he has done so far is right. However, due to the other problems facing the industry this has made things even worse.

:Thumbs:

[Old School]

Gas sell cheaper without the contracts. Do you fault Obama and the EPA or the powerhouses that are buying the gas. The whole point is, conservatives will stop at nothing in the coal layoffs, to blame Obama and the EPA. It isn't their fault at present. It is cheap coal, (not being mined because of coal prices), and even cheaper gas, without contracts.

Yes it is. :ChairHit:

No it's not. :ChairHit:

[TheRealVille]

Coal is not like water and neither is oil. Democrats have already stopped the development of large American oil reserves and now they are working hard to destroy what was a healthy coal industry.

Coal prices always drop when there is an oversupply and there is always an oversupply during a recession. The Obama administration is having a large impact on the demand for coal by pushing cap and trade legislation and actively making it more difficult to obtain mining permits.

Obama promised to put companies determined to build new coal fired power plants out of business and he is making good on that promise. Anybody whose job depends on the coal industry, directly or indirectly, would be a fool to support this president's agenda. Eastern Kentucky is not going to be a pleasant place to live as the economy continues to shrink and jobs continue to disappear.

You offer nothing but proaganda, the opposite of what CatDawg and OldSchool are offering. I, just now finished helping to build a brand new coal powerhouse unit that is in full operation, and buying coal at a super cheap price.

[CatDawg]

Contracts are a guessing game. If you sign one now and the price goes cheaper it hurts you, however, if the price goes up and your locked in your making a great deal. A large amount of coal is purchased on the Nymex trading market. I might sell you coal to meet your contract with me, you then sell to Old School to meet a contract with him, he then sells to company C to meet another contract and they in turn sell to another company just because they need some extra coal and you have it on hand and want to make a small profit. However, that company purchased to much coal and may in turn sell it back to me at a cheaper price than I ever sold it to the Real Ville in the first place. Now the funny part all this many have taken place which allowed me to make a profit on the coal that I first sold to Real Ville and I was able to meet demands in my contract. Now the kicker is all this might take place before the coal is even mined. Therefore, I made money on coal that stayed in the ground. Now that is how it works.

[TheRealVille]

Yes it is. :ChairHit:

No it's not. :ChairHit:

You had been doing so well, up until this point.

[Old School]

Not when gas is cheaper. In the shape that coal is in, if they force an 18 month contract, they would be fools. The power companies can just as easily sign a contract for what the company can produce, say 12 months.

Since they are several coal companies out there and not just one, most likely utilities would find someone who could fill their contract for 18 months.

[TheRealVille]

Since they are several coal companies out there and not just one, most likely utilities would find someone who could fill their contract for 18 months.

So, some coal companies would have the 18 month contract?

[CatDawg]

You were talking about some of the stockpiles on 23 and 52. Many of these companies are stockpiling just so they can meet those that are in need of emergency coal in the future. Like I said if you have 500,000 tons of coal and then sell it for 10 dollars more a ton or even more later you make a 5 million dollar profit and how much did it cost you to have it there for a year on a yard that was being used anyways.

[Old School]

You had been doing so well, up until this point.

I couldn't resist.:biggrin:

[Old School]

So, some coal companies would have the 18 month contract?

Thank you for proving my point. What would happen to the coal company that did not have the needed permits? They would have to a) sell their remaining coal on the spot market. b) Without permits they would not be able to barrow money needed to to operate. or c) layoff some or shutdown completely.

[jetpilot]

You offer nothing but proaganda, the opposite of what CatDawg and OldSchool are offering. I, just now finished helping to build a brand new coal powerhouse unit that is in full operation, and buying coal at a super cheap price.

It's not propaganda. Didn't you know about this before you voted for Obama?

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2008/11/02/sh...-industry/

[TheRealVille]

Thank you for proving my point. What would happen to the coal company that did not have the needed permits? They would have to a) sell their remaining coal on the spot market. b) Without permits they would not be able to barrow money needed to to operate. or c) layoff some or shutdown completely.

So you are not for the industry taking care of itself? ie, the larger companies that can compete, causing the smaller to shutdown?

[TheRealVille]

It's not propaganda. Didn't you know about this before you voted for Obama?

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2008/11/02/sh...-industry/

BS, he isn't shutting them down, low coal costs and cheap gas prices are. As I said, I just finished building a brand new coal unit that is in full operation, buying coal at super cheap prices. Didn't you read about the Cam and Miller layoffs? They have nothing to do with Obama. I didn't expect you to offer anything valuable to the conversation.

[Old School]

You offer nothing but proaganda, the opposite of what CatDawg and OldSchool are offering. I, just now finished helping to build a brand new coal powerhouse unit that is in full operation, and buying coal at a super cheap price.

Pay close attention to this video especially around the 2 minute mark.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMwBbl6RoIs"]YouTube - Shock VIDEO Unearthed Obama says he will bankrupt coal indus[/ame]

or

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wzNUZVv0A0"]YouTube - Obama to Bankrupt Coal Industry and Raise Energy Prices[/ame]

and Biden said...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ55UzAsp6M"]YouTube - Obama/Joe Biden "No Coal Plants Here in America"[/ame][ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ55UzAsp6M"]YouTube - Obama/Joe Biden "No Coal Plants Here in America"[/ame]

[TheRealVille]

They aren't doing anything so far, the new units are burning cheap coal as we speak. Obama is only saying that coal plants will have to burn clean, which most people should be for. Burn clean or go bankrupt, I'm for it.

[Old School]

So you are not for the industry taking care of itself? ie, the larger companies that can compete, causing the smaller to shutdown?

Unless the larger companies have a magic wand to make permit magically appear they are in the same boat as the smaller companies. If the smaller companies shutdown then that will require the larger one to produce more coal and depleting their reserves at a faster rate. The 5 years of permits you spoke of earlier could very easily now last 3 years.

[TheRealVille]

Unless the larger companies have a magic wand to make permit magically appear they are in the same boat as the smaller companies. If the smaller companies shutdown then that will require the larger one to produce more coal and depleting their reserves at a faster rate. The 5 years of permits you spoke of earlier could very easily now last 3 years.

The bottom line is, you are offering a lot of whatifs, that have nothing to do with the coal crisis at present. At present, it is low prices that are causing most of the layoffs. It is controlled by low coal prices and even cheaper gas prices.

[Old School]

The bottom line is, you are offering a lot of whatifs, that have nothing to do with the coal crisis at present. At present, it is low prices that are causing most of the layoffs. It is controlled by low coal prices and even cheaper gas prices.

It's obvious that you don't understand the whole picture, and I'll leave it at that.