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10-23-2009, 09:35 PM
I was recently told by a friend in Cam Mining that they are getting ready to layoff. Also, the former Miller Bros. are preparing their workers for layoffs this year.
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10-23-2009, 09:42 PM
I'm afraid this is just the tip of the iceberg, with the combination of large inventories and the permitting issues thanks to the EPA, things could get ugly in 2010.
10-23-2009, 09:50 PM
BTW, these layoffs have nothing to do with permits. It is over the price of coal for Cam and the parent company of Miller Bros. coming out of bankruptcy. I just wanted to see who the first to blame it on permits were. Cam has permits for the next five years, the price of coal is just too low to mine right now. The large inventories are due to the fact that the power companies aren't using as much this year, along with buying at super low prices.
10-23-2009, 09:52 PM
CatDawg Wrote:Inventories are huge everywhere.
I'm not sure how accurate the info is, but I was told that the Louisa plant usually keeps a 30 day coal supply and as of a few weeks ago they were up above a 90 day supply.
10-23-2009, 09:52 PM
It is low and plenty are stockpiling hoping to make a ton of money in the next year or so when the prices go back up. Take 500,000 tons stockpile it and make 10 dollars a ton profit next year. That's 5 million dollars profit just for holding onto the pile.
10-23-2009, 09:56 PM
Old School Wrote:I'm not sure how accurate the info is, but I was told that the Louisa plant usually keeps a 30 day coal supply and as of a few weeks ago they were up above a 90 day supply.Look at the coal pile across the river in WV, just north of AEP in Louisa, and you will see that it is taller than the trees. Taller than I have ever saw it, and I drive Rt.23 every day to work in Huntington.
10-23-2009, 09:58 PM
The point of the tread is , that it isn't all the fault of the EPA.
10-23-2009, 09:59 PM
Old School Wrote:I'm not sure how accurate the info is, but I was told that the Louisa plant usually keeps a 30 day coal supply and as of a few weeks ago they were up above a 90 day supply.AEP in Louisa is lined up with 20-30 trucks everyday, when I go by, to dump coal.
10-23-2009, 10:00 PM
TheRealVille Wrote:BTW, these layoffs have nothing to do with permits. It is over the price of coal for Cam and the parent company of Miller Bros. coming out of bankruptcy. I just wanted to see who the first to blame it on permits were. Cam has permits for the next five years, the price of coal is just too low to mine right now.
Cams layoffs may or may not be related to permits, I don't know, but I do know that in the past most companies tried to keep 3 to 5 years ahead on their permitting. However over the past few years, permits have become harder to obtain. I know for a fact that many coal companies only have 10 to 15 months of mining permitted.
10-23-2009, 10:03 PM
Old School Wrote:Cams layoffs may or may not be related to permits, I don't know, but I do know that in the past most companies tried to keep 3 to 5 years ahead on their permitting. However over the past few years, permits have become harder to obtain. I know for a fact that many coal companies only have 10 to 15 months of mining permitted.
I was told by a high up in Cam, that their layoffs have zero to do with permits. They have 5 years worth of them. I just wanted to show EKY that all isn't the fault of the EPA. Coal companies can't mine coal for say 60 dollars a ton and sell it for say 50(numbers are only examples).
10-23-2009, 10:06 PM
TheRealVille Wrote:AEP in Louisa is lined up with 20-30 trucks everyday, when I go by, to dump coal.
I know, we ship coal there just about everyday, but at some point in time they will stop buying more coal and start using their inventories. IMO they are fulfilling their contracts, but when these current contracts start to expire they won't be in such a hurry to renew them.
10-23-2009, 10:09 PM
CatDawg Wrote:It is low and plenty are stockpiling hoping to make a ton of money in the next year or so when the prices go back up. Take 500,000 tons stockpile it and make 10 dollars a ton profit next year. That's 5 million dollars profit just for holding onto the pile.
I agree most of the met mines have idled, in hopes of seeing $200-$300 a ton prices in the future.
10-23-2009, 10:12 PM
Old School Wrote:I agree most of the met mines have idled, in hopes of seeing $200-$300 a ton prices in the future.
So, why do you and JP blame it all on Obama and the EPA in most coal threads?
10-23-2009, 10:13 PM
Old School Wrote:I'm not sure how accurate the info is, but I was told that the Louisa plant usually keeps a 30 day coal supply and as of a few weeks ago they were up above a 90 day supply.I would say that is pretty close. They have a large pile right now and had another 45 trucks lined up there Wednesday morning going into the plant and when I came back by several hours later they still had several trucks lined up inside and another 15 to 20 outside. Had that with the trains they get and no more than they are having to burn it will last for awhile. We've been hearing all the AEP plants have large stockpiles right now.
10-23-2009, 10:15 PM
TheRealVille Wrote:I was told by a high up in Cam, that their layoffs have zero to do with permits. They have 5 years worth of them. I just wanted to show EKY that all isn't the fault of the EPA. Coal companies can't mine coal for say 60 dollars a ton and sell it for say 50(numbers are only examples).
If production cost are higher than the selling price, then you won't be in business very long.
10-23-2009, 10:17 PM
Old School Wrote:If production cost are higher than the selling price, then you won't be in business very long.We both know this. My point is, that every thing wrong with coal isn't the EPA and Obama, like most claim.
10-23-2009, 10:18 PM
Well oil is going back up so expect coal to be right behind. However, until steel is needed and that doesn't look like anytime soon then coal isn't going to be needed. That is due to them not needing it for steel production plus with the steel mills burning less electric the power plants won't be burning as much either. Plus you can add the fact that it is cheaper to burn gas for electric than coal right now.
10-23-2009, 10:19 PM
Tons of the problems with the EPA is only being addressed now under Obama however, it has been a problem for several years. The new problem with the corp of engineers is also going to affect things. Add to that the new laws dealing with safety issues in deep mines such as needing the escape capsules and the cost of them is also effecting it. Coal is being hit from several sides right now.
10-23-2009, 10:23 PM
CatDawg Wrote:Tons of the problems with the EPA is only being addressed now under Obama however, it has been a problem for several years. The new problem with the corp of engineers is also going to affect things. Add to that the new laws dealing with safety issues in deep mines such as needing the escape capsules and the cost of them is also effecting it. Coal is being hit from several sides right now.
The more safety the better in deep mines. This really has nothing to do with the topic however.
10-23-2009, 10:25 PM
I know what I'm saying is that the added safety laws are also effecting the cost which is resulting in many deep mines not being able to afford them which cause mines to close. I agree safety needs to be number 1 I'm in safety and have been underground.
10-23-2009, 10:34 PM
TheRealVille Wrote:So, why do you and JP blame it all on Obama and the EPA in most coal threads?
Up until the EPA became involved with surface mining permits the problem was more with market conditions and the environmentalist (in WV). Obama and the EPA's involvment has and is effecting the release of mining permits which is starting to trickle down the the coal companies and it employees. In order to sign mulit year contracts with energy companies, the coal company must prove they have or can permit the reserves to cover the contracts the current EPA is making this almost impossible, because they are not telling state officals or coal companies what it is they want changed in the permits.
10-23-2009, 10:45 PM
Old School Wrote:Up until the EPA became involved with surface mining permits the problem was more with market conditions and the environmentalist (in WV). Obama and the EPA's involvment has and is effecting the release of mining permits which is starting to trickle down the the coal companies and it employees. In order to sign mulit year contracts with energy companies, the coal company must prove they have or can permit the reserves to cover the contracts the current EPA is making this almost impossible, because they are not telling state officals or coal companies what it is they want changed in the permits.But right now it is the low cost, as is well established with overstocking of the power companies. It must not have anything to do with the EPA or contracts or the power companies stockpiles would be low. Low cost of coal is why they are overstocking right now, and why a lot of mines are shutting down. Low coal prices.
10-23-2009, 10:49 PM
They are overstocking because it is cheaper right now to burn gas for electric than coal. Gas has been even cheaper. Plue add the fact that you are not making steel and the demand for electric is extremly down. It is expected that electric rates will drop at the beginning of the year across the entire country.
10-23-2009, 10:50 PM
CatDawg Wrote:They are overstocking because it is cheaper right now to burn gas for electric than coal. Gas has been even cheaper. Plue add the fact that you are not making steel and the demand for electric is extremly down. It is expected that electric rates will drop at the beginning of the year across the entire country.Well, you must not know much about coal burning powerhouses. They don't burn gas.
10-23-2009, 10:52 PM
Right now the AEP in louisa is also supplied by a gas company Dynergy just down the road on the right. They were setup to supply when they had peaks in demand but are being used right now due to prices. I know more than you think. I also agree with you on most of your other post even though I'm also pro-coal.
10-23-2009, 10:53 PM
CatDawg Wrote:Right now the AEP in louisa is also supplied by a gas company Dynergy just down the road on the right. They were setup to supply when they had peaks in demand but are being used right now due to prices. I know more than you think. I also agree with you on most of your other post even though I'm also pro-coal.Right now, down the road, is just a peaking unit. They don't use them on a regular basis, especially when coal is cheap. I am also pro-coal.
10-23-2009, 10:56 PM
10-23-2009, 10:56 PM
The damage that Obama is doing to this nation's energy security is long term. Obama's economic policies, which he predicted would keep unemployment from reaching 8 percent, will continue to depress the coal market.
Pulling more than 70 surface mine permit applications from consideration will have a devastating impact on the economy of Appalachia beginning in three to five years. Anybody who thinks otherwise does not understand the US coal market or the mining process.
In most cases, mining companies do not have a choice between deep mining or surface mining. Economics and geologic conditions dictate which mining method is feasible for a given reserves. The environmental wackos who have taken control of the federal agencies that regulate mining would like the general public to believe that companies will simply deep mine reserves if mountain top removal methods are banned. That simply is not the case.
Even when it is feasible to either deep mine or strip a block of coal reserves, stripping results in a much higher recovery rate. Deep mining a surface minable reserve wastes a valuable natural resource. Typical recovery rates for mountain top removal mining is 85 to 90 percent versus 50 to 60 percent for room and pillar mining.
Pulling more than 70 surface mine permit applications from consideration will have a devastating impact on the economy of Appalachia beginning in three to five years. Anybody who thinks otherwise does not understand the US coal market or the mining process.
In most cases, mining companies do not have a choice between deep mining or surface mining. Economics and geologic conditions dictate which mining method is feasible for a given reserves. The environmental wackos who have taken control of the federal agencies that regulate mining would like the general public to believe that companies will simply deep mine reserves if mountain top removal methods are banned. That simply is not the case.
Even when it is feasible to either deep mine or strip a block of coal reserves, stripping results in a much higher recovery rate. Deep mining a surface minable reserve wastes a valuable natural resource. Typical recovery rates for mountain top removal mining is 85 to 90 percent versus 50 to 60 percent for room and pillar mining.
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