[outdoorsman43]

I have looked at the "advantages", if you can call it that. Coal provides jobs, cheap energy (but very dirty), and is very important to our economy. But the nation is changing, people see that our old ways are destroying our planet. We cant continue to do things the way we are now. At some point, we will have to get away from coal, so why not start that change now, lets begin to make this transition, and stop holding ourselves back. People in the coal industry claim that coal is our only hope for the economy, and if there is any truth to that, its no ones fault but our own. We have to look past coal, because one day it will be gone.

Agreed that it will be gone, studies have shown we have a few centuries left of coal though. The transition to alternative fuels should be a very slow one. Coal is our only hope for the economy, there is no accurate argument to be made against that. If that's our fault, then so be it. The point is that we can't just make the change like turning on/off a light switch. If it happens then you will see what a destroyed country really looks like. We'll see if the environment, all that is associated with pollution, and tree hugging is your top priority then.

[Coach_Owens87]

Agreed that it will be gone, studies have shown we have a few centuries left of coal though. The transition to alternative fuels should be a very slow one. Coal is our only hope for the economy, there is no accurate argument to be made against that. If that's our fault, then so be it. The point is that we can't just make the change like turning on/off a light switch. If it happens then you will see what a destroyed country really looks like. We'll see if the environment, all that is associated with pollution, and tree hugging is your top priority then.

All you have is your fear mongering tactics, which don't work anymore. No one is saying to just turn off the switch on coal, well no one besides people in the coal industry trying to scare citizens. The transition has to be done right, not necessarily at a snails pace, but it must be done, and done in time. We have a pretty delicate time line to correct our destructive ways. Jobs have come and gone before, and it will continue to happen, but what will a job matter, if the planet cant host life?

[outdoorsman43]

All you have is your fear mongering tactics, which don't work anymore. No one is saying to just turn off the switch on coal, well no one besides people in the coal industry trying to scare citizens. The transition has to be done right, not necessarily at a snails pace, but it must be done, and done in time. We have a pretty delicate time line to correct our destructive ways. Jobs have come and gone before, and it will continue to happen, but what will a job matter, if the planet cant host life?

Scare tactics? :thatsfunn:please:

Think what you want. Regardless of what you or I say, neither of our views of this nation are going to change. I guess that is the beauty of political debate.

[phs1986]

http://www.kentuckyliving.com/article.as...ssueid=288

http://www.stonecrestky.com/

http://www.trailsheaven./about/hatfield_...ls_is.aspx

http://www.knottcountyadventure.com/sportsplex.html






The above 4 links are just areas within a 25/30 mile radius of where I am right now that have been reclaimed and used for economic purposes of the communities they are in. You can NOT tell me that by creating these facilities that there was so much damage to the land that it is unusable. UH... It's being used and used for a profit. IMHO, if your that determined to knock strip mining, put yourself on a reclaim crew and then you tell the EPA how YOU want it done and work and heck, make yourself some money making our fine land beautiful again! Yes, there are instances when the land is more "flat" that orginally but Knott County is a fine example as to what can be done with "flat" land!! AND, I do belive they have some vegatation growing rather nicely around the facility!! Sorry, I have a very strong opinion on this and to keep myself in check I felt I should have some sites with information to back up what I say.... So.. there ya have it!

(OH, I do belive they mention elk in the Knott County piece)... That is wildlife isn't it???

[Coach_Owens87]

http://www.kentuckyliving.com/article.as...ssueid=288

http://www.stonecrestky.com/

http://www.trailsheaven./about/hatfield_...ls_is.aspx

http://www.knottcountyadventure.com/sportsplex.html






The above 4 links are just areas within a 25/30 mile radius of where I am right now that have been reclaimed and used for economic purposes of the communities they are in. You can NOT tell me that by creating these facilities that there was so much damage to the land that it is unusable. UH... It's being used and used for a profit. IMHO, if your that determined to knock strip mining, put yourself on a reclaim crew and then you tell the EPA how YOU want it done and work and heck, make yourself some money making our fine land beautiful again! Yes, there are instances when the land is more "flat" that orginally but Knott County is a fine example as to what can be done with "flat" land!! AND, I do belive they have some vegatation growing rather nicely around the facility!! Sorry, I have a very strong opinion on this and to keep myself in check I felt I should have some sites with information to back up what I say.... So.. there ya have it!

(OH, I do belive they mention elk in the Knott County piece)... That is wildlife isn't it???

And your point is?

Thanks for completely ignoring everything I wrote, lol.

1.) I never said they werent being used, I only said that less than 5% of it is being used, so those places you showed fall within that 5%. Doesn't change anything I said.

2.) Elk are wildlife, but that species was not here prior to strip mining, they aren't a natural species. That's all I was saying, strip mining didnt improve habitats here, they just brought in a species that were suitable for the new environment. Blasting off a mountain, destroying all the wildlife, and then bringing in something that can use the new land is not improving anything.

3.) The vegetation on the Sportsplex is a joke. There is a few American chestnuts planted by some coal friendly groups to make themselves look good. Other than that its just like every other mine site, tall grass, and not much else.

[Wildcatk23]

This discussion is a lost cause, people who think that the only two forms of energy are coal and nuclear needs to do a little research, noone wants the coal miners to lose there jobs but to say that is it better for natures habitat then leaving it how it is is astonishing,

[Old School]

And your point is?

Thanks for completely ignoring everything I wrote, lol.

1.) I never said they werent being used, I only said that less than 5% of it is being used, so those places you showed fall within that 5%. Doesn't change anything I said.

2.) Elk are wildlife, but that species was not here prior to strip mining, they aren't a natural species. That's all I was saying, strip mining didnt improve habitats here, they just brought in a species that were suitable for the new environment. Blasting off a mountain, destroying all the wildlife, and then bringing in something that can use the new land is not improving anything.

3.) The vegetation on the Sportsplex is a joke. There is a few American chestnuts planted by some coal friendly groups to make themselves look good. Other than that its just like every other mine site, tall grass, and not much else.

You and I have argured about the 5% several times, I believe it is a bogus estimate by the anti-coal groups which have lead you to believe. According to the Kentucky Coal Facts, over 40 building sites, 20 sports related facilities, 80 Industrial/Commerical Sites, 16 farms, 11 fish and wildlife projects, 20 Government facilities, 5 airports and numerous small businesses and individual residents have been built on these reclaimed sites.

One thing you need to keep in mind is that not all of these coal companies own the land that they mine, in several cases the land is owned individuals which woud make it impossible to develop.

[TheRealVille]

I do wonder one thing though. I wonder if Jim Booth of Martin Co., and some of the operators from Pike Co. with those multi-million dollar mansions would consider selling them and moving into something smaller to help out their fellow layed off coal miners expenses in these tough coal times? Has it ever occurred to any here that maybe the operators are laying off and idling operations to help get the coal above $30-40 a ton? Power companies are stockpiling huge amounts of coal, but you can only stock pile so much. I drive by AEP in Louisa everyday, they have the biggest stockpile I have saw in 20 years there right now.

[TheRealVille]

If all the layoffs are because the companies can't get permits, why are all the coal docks down on RT. 23 in Boyd county full to the brim(again, more than I can remember in 20 years of traveling 23) with stockpiled coal? How did it get there?

[outdoorsman43]

If all the layoffs are because the companies can't get permits, why are all the coal docks down on RT. 23 in Boyd county full to the brim(again, more than I can remember in 20 years of traveling 23) with stockpiled coal? How did it get there?

That is the coal that is mined from the sites that have already been issued permits years ago. The stockpiles you speak of are there because the demand for coal isn't as high this time of the year. Last year was a much better year for coal if anyone looked at the stocks.

[phs1986]

And your point is?

Thanks for completely ignoring everything I wrote, lol.

1.) I never said they werent being used, I only said that less than 5% of it is being used, so those places you showed fall within that 5%. Doesn't change anything I said.

2.) Elk are wildlife, but that species was not here prior to strip mining, they aren't a natural species. That's all I was saying, strip mining didnt improve habitats here, they just brought in a species that were suitable for the new environment. Blasting off a mountain, destroying all the wildlife, and then bringing in something that can use the new land is not improving anything.

3.) The vegetation on the Sportsplex is a joke. There is a few American chestnuts planted by some coal friendly groups to make themselves look good. Other than that its just like every other mine site, tall grass, and not much else.

First off I didn't completely ignore everything you said.... Just tired of hearing the same song and dance.... LOL...

Secondly, if the above mentioned 4 locations make up 5% of "good usage"of striped mine land then what about the rest of the areas? Like I mentioned (as you evidently didn't READ they are local) there are more than I listed in just this vacinity!

Next, if elk aren't a "natural" species why all the humdrum a few years ago that they were endangered? I have seen squirrel, rabbits, deer, a bear, turkey, snakes, groundhogs, and skunks on a strip mine. Do they qualify to your specification of wildlife?

Finally, WHY may I ask would you gripe about a few "coal friendly" groups doing anything to help beautify an area used by children for activities? Sounds to me your priorities are out of line if you think that is all that was done to that area. Good lord, look outside of the box and see the real picture of what good is going on around you. I would rather the children have a nice facility such as Knott County OR Grants Branch to spend their time at than to have them out doing drugs, drinking, or ending up in jail or dead due to nothing being available for them to do. I'm not saying everything thats done with reclaimed mine sites is something that children can enjoy but enough of it is being done so that communities are investing their time and making money back to ensure a more stable economy for their area. WHAT may I ask type of work do you do? I'm just curious!!

[jetpilot]

All you have is your fear mongering tactics, which don't work anymore. No one is saying to just turn off the switch on coal, well no one besides people in the coal industry trying to scare citizens. The transition has to be done right, not necessarily at a snails pace, but it must be done, and done in time. We have a pretty delicate time line to correct our destructive ways. Jobs have come and gone before, and it will continue to happen, but what will a job matter, if the planet cant host life?

If you think the planet won't be able to host life because of coal mining, it is you who is the victim of fear mongering. That's just insane. You better be having nightmares about cars and trucks too, they cause about a million times more pollution than coal. Don't use your vehicle and keep your computer turned off and we will believe you are serious about saving the planet.:zzz:

[outdoorsman43]

If you think the planet won't be able to host life because or coal mining, it is you who is the victim of fear mongering. That's just insane. You better be having nightmares about cars and trucks too, they cause about a million times more pollution than coal. Don't use your vehicle and keep your computer turned off and we will believe you are serious about saving the planet.:zzz:

It's like talking to a brick wall, huh?

[jetpilot]

It's like talking to a brick wall, huh?

I can make sense out of a wall.:igiveup:

[Coach_Owens87]

If you think the planet won't be able to host life because of coal mining, it is you who is the victim of fear mongering. That's just insane. You better be having nightmares about cars and trucks too, they cause about a million times more pollution than coal. Don't use your vehicle and keep your computer turned off and we will believe you are serious about saving the planet.:zzz:

Just another ignorant post, but I shouldn't have expected anything different. Did I say that coal mining was the only cause of environmental damage? I think not. My statement was that if we don't stop our destructive ways, things will get bad. That encompasses a lot of things, not just coal mining. And dont worry about my electricity use, I can guarantee my usage is a lot less than most people on this stie.

[Coach_Owens87]

First off I didn't completely ignore everything you said.... Just tired of hearing the same song and dance.... LOL...

Secondly, if the above mentioned 4 locations make up 5% of "good usage"of striped mine land then what about the rest of the areas? Like I mentioned (as you evidently didn't READ they are local) there are more than I listed in just this vacinity!

Next, if elk aren't a "natural" species why all the humdrum a few years ago that they were endangered? I have seen squirrel, rabbits, deer, a bear, turkey, snakes, groundhogs, and skunks on a strip mine. Do they qualify to your specification of wildlife?

Finally, WHY may I ask would you gripe about a few "coal friendly" groups doing anything to help beautify an area used by children for activities? Sounds to me your priorities are out of line if you think that is all that was done to that area. Good lord, look outside of the box and see the real picture of what good is going on around you. I would rather the children have a nice facility such as Knott County OR Grants Branch to spend their time at than to have them out doing drugs, drinking, or ending up in jail or dead due to nothing being available for them to do. I'm not saying everything thats done with reclaimed mine sites is something that children can enjoy but enough of it is being done so that communities are investing their time and making money back to ensure a more stable economy for their area. WHAT may I ask type of work do you do? I'm just curious!!

Again, you are either ignoring my post, or cant comprehend them.

Those 4 sites dont make up the entire 5%, they fall within it. For every mine site you can show that has some usage, I can show you 5 that are sitting vacant.

The gripe about elk numbers being low was because some groups had a lot of money invested in this project, anytime big money is involved, it becomes important.

And im not griping about creating areas for kids, I use the sportsplex, I actually coached a youth basketball team there for the past 3 years, so dont give me that crap. My point is that far more land remains unused, than is being put to good use. Why do we have to destroy land, pollute our streams and air? I want my kids to have things to do, I want kids in this area to have things, but I also want them to have safe drinking water, safe streams to fish and swim in. Not too much to ask.

[Mr.Kimball]

Just another ignorant post, but I shouldn't have expected anything different. Did I say that coal mining was the only cause of environmental damage? I think not. My statement was that if we don't stop our destructive ways, things will get bad. That encompasses a lot of things, not just coal mining. And dont worry about my electricity use, I can guarantee my usage is a lot less than most people on this stie.

How would you have the first clue as to what anyone else does?...... You live in a tent and use candles for heat and light? While you rambling on and on about nothing ,please go into detail on how you go about using less than everybody else, that you dont even know.

[Mr.Kimball]

I do wonder one thing though. I wonder if Jim Booth of Martin Co., and some of the operators from Pike Co. with those multi-million dollar mansions would consider selling them and moving into something smaller to help out their fellow layed off coal miners expenses in these tough coal times? Has it ever occurred to any here that maybe the operators are laying off and idling operations to help get the coal above $30-40 a ton? Power companies are stockpiling huge amounts of coal, but you can only stock pile so much. I drive by AEP in Louisa everyday, they have the biggest stockpile I have saw in 20 years there right now.

Actually Jim Booth has long term contrats with the coal he produces and has been fortunate enough to not only not lay some of his miners off, but has actually hired lately.
Coal prices are predicated by the price of oil. When oil is high , coal is high. When oil is low , so is coal. AEP has stocked up while the price is low.

[Mr.Kimball]

And your point is?

Thanks for completely ignoring everything I wrote, lol.

1.) I never said they werent being used, I only said that less than 5% of it is being used, so those places you showed fall within that 5%. Doesn't change anything I said.

2.) Elk are wildlife, but that species was not here prior to strip mining, they aren't a natural species. That's all I was saying, strip mining didnt improve habitats here, they just brought in a species that were suitable for the new environment. Blasting off a mountain, destroying all the wildlife, and then bringing in something that can use the new land is not improving anything.

3.) The vegetation on the Sportsplex is a joke. There is a few American chestnuts planted by some coal friendly groups to make themselves look good. Other than that its just like every other mine site, tall grass, and not much else.

Are not a natural species? They once roamed all over Kentucky, just as buffalo did. I can remember the first time I ever saw a deer here in eastern Kentucky, and can remember when the DOW first brought deer into Johnson Co. I can also remember when they brought turkey into this area. All were at one time all native and natural species that lived everywhere in our area , but vanished many years ago. You dont have the first clue as to what you are rambling on about.


How many trees have you gone out and planted yourself? The National Arbor Foundation gives them away. You can also get trees from the state or the U.S. Forestry Department. How much time and effort do you put into making your own habitat and community better? Are you one of those guys that are too good to get your own hands dirty? Are you just one of those people that likes to gripe and complain about what every body else does but does nothing themselves to help themselves? If your wanting to see trees everywhere grab a few and go to work, my hypocritical friend.Spend less time on the computer and make a difference.

[Mr.Kimball]

I have looked at the "advantages", if you can call it that. Coal provides jobs, cheap energy (but very dirty), and is very important to our economy. But the nation is changing, people see that our old ways are destroying our planet. We cant continue to do things the way we are now. At some point, we will have to get away from coal, so why not start that change now, lets begin to make this transition, and stop holding ourselves back. People in the coal industry claim that coal is our only hope for the economy, and if there is any truth to that, its no ones fault but our own. We have to look past coal, because one day it will be gone.

And what would you propose that people in Knott Co. do ? The only things in eastern Kentucky that people have to generate income, comes from either coal, oil, gas, or timber. There is nothing else. We have no manufacturing plants, and we never will. Without any of these resources my friend , you would be one of the first to stand in line and file for that government assistance check.

[Youngerthandirt]

I drive US 23 everyday......and the coal truck traffic is half of what it was a year ago. As to AEP.....their coal is bought on contracts......very liitle is spot market coal so their stock pile is normal at this time of year due to an increase in energy during July and August. Look at the docks, there is less coal stockpiled there than normal.
I will be out of a job in 60 to 90 days thanks to the current anti-coal administration. There are no Permits being issued due to the Corp not issuing 404 permits. As to the $30.00 to $40.00 dollar prices, it's s little difficult to spend $50.00 to produce something that you're selling for $45.00. Kinda little buying a bucket of chicken for $15.00, when is cost $18.00 to fry it......you're going to need a bigger truck.
Our government just poured another 2 billion dollars into the Auto Industry. We OWN 51% of GM.......I've yet to get my stock certificate. We own banks, but yet businesses can't get loans. We're getting ready to spend more money we don't have on Health Care that will be a bigger burden on the middle class (employed middle class).
Our government was not formed to be a bail-out government, it was formed so we could enjoy your religous freedoms which we're losing everyday. It was formed to allow people to be free to earn a living by working hard. Now, we expect our government to feed us, provide health care, provide income, and give us money to buy a new car. What happened to the values of earning a living? What happened to the values of family, and community?
This administration will spend us into bankruptcy........they have already spend more that the last administration did in 8 years.
We have a huge resource of coal, gas and oil. Let's stop spending money we don't have on foreign resources and put AMERICAN's back to work by using the resources we already have.

[Wildcatk23]

This Conversation Still going On, It Will Never End Until Global Warming Gives Kentucky a Coastline, Then We Will Have Tourist Attractions, This Must Be The Coal Companys Plan And Obama Wants To Stop Them So His Home(Hawaii) Doesnt Become Atlantis.
I finally figured It Out

[Mr.Kimball]

This Conversation Still going On, It Will Never End Until Global Warming Gives Kentucky a Coastline, Then We Will Have Tourist Attractions, This Must Be The Coal Companys Plan And Obama Wants To Stop Them So His Home(Hawaii) Doesnt Become Atlantis.
I finally figured It Out

Got your surf board waxed down?

[Mr.Kimball]

I drive US 23 everyday......and the coal truck traffic is half of what it was a year ago. As to AEP.....their coal is bought on contracts......very liitle is spot market coal so their stock pile is normal at this time of year due to an increase in energy during July and August. Look at the docks, there is less coal stockpiled there than normal.
I will be out of a job in 60 to 90 days thanks to the current anti-coal administration. There are no Permits being issued due to the Corp not issuing 404 permits. As to the $30.00 to $40.00 dollar prices, it's s little difficult to spend $50.00 to produce something that you're selling for $45.00. Kinda little buying a bucket of chicken for $15.00, when is cost $18.00 to fry it......you're going to need a bigger truck.
Our government just poured another 2 billion dollars into the Auto Industry. We OWN 51% of GM.......I've yet to get my stock certificate. We own banks, but yet businesses can't get loans. We're getting ready to spend more money we don't have on Health Care that will be a bigger burden on the middle class (employed middle class).
Our government was not formed to be a bail-out government, it was formed so we could enjoy your religous freedoms which we're losing everyday. It was formed to allow people to be free to earn a living by working hard. Now, we expect our government to feed us, provide health care, provide income, and give us money to buy a new car. What happened to the values of earning a living? What happened to the values of family, and community?
This administration will spend us into bankruptcy........they have already spend more that the last administration did in 8 years.
We have a huge resource of coal, gas and oil. Let's stop spending money we don't have on foreign resources and put AMERICAN's back to work by using the resources we already have.

Yeah your right,.......... brain lock.

Hate to hear about the layoff, but you should have more time now to help Mr. Owens plant those trees .


Good post, dirt.

[phs1986]

Again, you are either ignoring my post, or cant comprehend them.

Those 4 sites dont make up the entire 5%, they fall within it. For every mine site you can show that has some usage, I can show you 5 that are sitting vacant.

The gripe about elk numbers being low was because some groups had a lot of money invested in this project, anytime big money is involved, it becomes important.

And im not griping about creating areas for kids, I use the sportsplex, I actually coached a youth basketball team there for the past 3 years, so dont give me that crap. My point is that far more land remains unused, than is being put to good use. Why do we have to destroy land, pollute our streams and air? I want my kids to have things to do, I want kids in this area to have things, but I also want them to have safe drinking water, safe streams to fish and swim in. Not too much to ask.

I have an IQ that would astonish you so yes, I do comprehend rather well and no, I'm not ignoring your posts either. I'm no longer going to take part in this discussion as each and every time one is started on the topic of "mining" in general you always put negative posts in place and get upset when others disagree with you. You know my thoughts and opinions on this topic. I feel I need to say nothing more.

[Wildcatk23]

Got your surf board waxed down?

You Know It, I Always Wanted To go Shark Fishing Too

Anything You Plan On Doing with Are New Coastline?

[Mr.Kimball]

You Know It, I Always Wanted To go Shark Fishing Too

Anything You Plan On Doing with Are New Coastline?

Yeah, I think I'll take the wife and kids and cruise down the new Atlantic Coast Highway (aka Rt#292) in the woody and catch a wave or two myself.

Hang 10 Dude!!!!:biggrin:

Hey, BTW, dont you wish they could all be Nawgeetuck girls??irateSho

[Old School]

All you have is your fear mongering tactics, which don't work anymore. No one is saying to just turn off the switch on coal, well no one besides people in the coal industry trying to scare citizens. The transition has to be done right, not necessarily at a snails pace, but it must be done, and done in time. We have a pretty delicate time line to correct our destructive ways. Jobs have come and gone before, and it will continue to happen, but what will a job matter, if the planet cant host life?

Let me guess......you've been watching Al Gore again haven't you! :biggrin:

It's amazing how you can say we use fear mongering tactics, when in the same paragraph you say we have a "pretty delicate time line" and "the planet can't host life". :eyeroll:

[TheRealVille]

I will be out of a job in 60 to 90 days thanks to the current anti-coal administration.

Like I have said before, quit whining about the government and go to the jobs are. Your wife can watch after the kids and sleep by herself during the week. I have traveled quite a bit in the last 20 years when work slowed up around here. I go where I have to to feed my family. I don't depend on the government to provide for my family, I go get it.

[Old School]

The problem with this is that its only your opinion, and the scientific facts disagree with what you are saying.

Not all surface mines increase flooding, but the majority due, as pointed out in this study.

"We can say that MTR/VF mining can increase downstream flood risks, and that there is a very high probability that this has occurred and will occur downstream of some fills. On balance, results suggest that an increase in peak flows is more likely than a decrease or no change. However, our results also show that there is likely to be a great deal of variation, and that at a significant number of sites no increase in peak flows or flood risk will occur."

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:4Loz...clnk&gl=us

This study is probably a little biased, and lean towards the coal industry as it comes from the university of kentucky, and they have some partnerships with friends of coal. But this was the only study I found that wasn't an abstract.

Only my opinion......hardly, studies that are sponsored by anti coal groups will always say surface mining causes flooding, studies sponsored by the mining industry will conclude that it doesn't increase flooding. Independent studies will find that there are a lot of varations in their modeling, more or less trying to please both sides.

Here's why I don't have a much faith in these reports. They use computer modeling to determine their results, there are simply to many assumptions and formulas used in these models to be accurate. Models similar to the one used in this report have been peer reviewed and have found to be inconsistent in their results.

Where does it say majority in your report? The report also states "reduced as well as increased flood risk are possible, and the degree may vary markedly". and "it would be unwise to apply generalizations to specific sites". Maybe you should read the report again.