[Navajo4life]

If that's the case, why not play a walk up 8 (4-4) with man-man coverage in the secondary... You can take both safeties and either bliz one of them and play one in coverage or leave both of them in the back field..

[phdballer]

What I've seen many teams start to do more of is run a 3-5-3 defense. This does a few things that can somewhat control the spread. First you can blitz a guy or two and keep zonw coverage behind them, and the offense in many cases have no clue where the 4th or 5th guy is coming from. It also leaves a man in the box un blocked if the offense decides to run the ball. Also you can play both corners back off the and walk your outside backers over the WR, so you want get high lowed or pick each other with crossing routes. And I also think its better to have 3 deep. And in a cover 2 you worry about the Four vertical routes

I only like the 3-3-5 or 3-5-3 as a change up to the 4-3 because you can get killed by the midline and belly if they run it right. All you have to do is use regualr personnel and line up in twins away from the TE. Most teams 3-5-3 teams don't adjust with a man over on this formation. You run the inside/outside option to the twins side and there is never anyone on the pitch. If they start to cheat too much instead of having that inside WR block down run the bubble with him and still run the option out of gun if they come up then throw the bubble if they sit back run the option.

[Navajo4life]

Don't you have to have exceptional d-lineman to be able to run 3-5-3?

[phdballer]

Don't you have to have exceptional d-lineman to be able to run 3-5-3?

I am not sure that they have to be exceptional as much as they have to not expect much glory. The better 3-5 teams I have seen ask those lineman to stick to lineman and not let them off to scraping linebackers. The linebackers line up a little deeper and they are down hill players

[5kings]

Little bit of a misconception. Double Wing Teams are always double teaming you or down blocking you. They are not lining up a whipping you BIG ON BIG.
Its a numbers advantage. If you play a 4 tech. head up on their tackle, He will get double teamed by the tackle and Tight end. If you play a 2 tech. head up on their guard, He will get doubled by the guard and tackle. You will get doubled on the play side and they pull their backside G and T to the play side as well to out-number you to the play side. Now you have to be sound on D so you can't have everybody flowing to the play side motion, if you do and they run counter back away from the play side motion your doomed and if you don't your out-numbered to the play side. You can't bring backers through the gaps, There are no gaps, They align toe toe toe.

the double wing was made for smaller players up front, thats way you get so many double teams having the hogs up front just makes it better. what most teams do is try to get more players at the point of attack which is the wrong thing to do, you leave yourself open for the counter etc.. try this and see if it will work for you. play both def. guards in an inside shade (2I) tech. have them attack outward through the off. guards taking the off.with them opening the A gaps just enough for blitzing LBers in both A gaps ( the ball starts in the middle if both A gaps and it has to cross both A gaps to get to the point of attack) it leaves your outside player to play the counter your inside backers should be able to stop the trap and wedge while attack with the blitz It work well for me in Fla. with teams we played that used the double wing as while on the scout team against your own off. that ran the double wing ( 10 - 0 reg. season)

[Navajo4life]

I guess your starting the Def. Tackles in the B-Gap and shooting them across the face of the guards into the C-Gap?

[phdballer]

I guess your starting the Def. Tackles in the B-Gap and shooting them across the face of the guards into the C-Gap?

I think he was saying he is starting them in almost the a gap and shooting them across the guards face into the b gap

[cougarpride08]

Is the triple option hard to defend? I have heard that it is.

[bulldog42]

Is the triple option hard to defend? I have heard that it is.

IMO a triple option team that can be balanced is about as tough as it gets. I coached under Chuke at LC and he ran the ball as well as anybody in state history. I coached under Coach Sphire at Lex Cath and he threw the ball as well as anybody in state history.
I had the luxury to be in the final 4 under both those guys (won it all with Coach Sphire) and also played in a final 4 at LC. When you get in those big games you better have balance + defense. Chuke had Gerad Parker who is in the top 2 in about every category receiving and Sphire ultimatly won because he committed to the run when he had too. I think we had 5 rushing TD's vs Bowling Green in that championship game even though Burke was one of the best QB's in state history (he has a great shot to start for UofL this year at QB). They loaded up vs the pass and we ran all day with our little shifty Soph.
You might rack up huge yds against weak teams with some of these offenses but when you have to go play somebody like Highlands, Trinity, Beechwood, Boyle, X, Belfry, Central, Bell Co etc you better not be one diminsional. They will eat you alive!
If I were running an offense it would be a spread option. You have the ability to pound the ball, run the option + get athletes in space if they load up on you.

[cougarpride08]

I thought it would be easy to defend until I read that.

[Pigskinman53]

In most cases 3-5 teams line up a NG heads up, and the Tackles in the B gap and there job is to plug the hole, so in most cases they take on a double team. This will allow the libebackers to run free and stop the run.

[Jackson05]

IMO a triple option team that can be balanced is about as tough as it gets. I coached under Chuke at LC and he ran the ball as well as anybody in state history. I coached under Coach Sphire at Lex Cath and he threw the ball as well as anybody in state history.
I had the luxury to be in the final 4 under both those guys (won it all with Coach Sphire) and also played in a final 4 at LC. When you get in those big games you better have balance + defense. Chuke had Gerad Parker who is in the top 2 in about every category receiving and Sphire ultimatly won because he committed to the run when he had too. I think we had 5 rushing TD's vs Bowling Green in that championship game even though Burke was one of the best QB's in state history (he has a great shot to start for UofL this year at QB). They loaded up vs the pass and we ran all day with our little shifty Soph.
You might rack up huge yds against weak teams with some of these offenses but when you have to go play somebody like Highlands, Trinity, Beechwood, Boyle, X, Belfry, Central, Bell Co etc you better not be one diminsional. They will eat you alive!
If I were running an offense it would be a spread option. You have the ability to pound the ball, run the option + get athletes in space if they load up on you.

Agreed...

[barrel]

I think what King Leonidas is suggesting instead of playing a ton of coverages and such do a few things well. I think that is sound. Who cares if you can play 5+ coverages if you are not truly good at any of them. Good teams often are good at a hand full of things. It might not be the best matchup but they have went through it so much that it holds up.

Navajo4life: the issue with playing a SS on the weakside is along the lines of asking why not just play a 44. SS by name is placed on the strong side. Instead it sounds like you play your free like a SS and your SS like a free. You place the SS to get the extra body on the offense’s strong side and to help in the flat leaving the Will on the backside where he has less of a pass/blocking threat.

Stacks cause more of an issue for read teams then passing team unless their protection system is flawed. Of course there is a number of ways to mess with protections but you can formation teams to cut that down and limit coverages. If you can not do that then you better have an answer.

Not having a QB that can beat you comes down to training and design. I am a big Coverdale and Darin Slack guy and those two can help a ton. Teams ask QB to do things they are not as good at and do nto always design their offense to take advantage of what the QB does well. Slack’s stuff can teach the rest if you use it and take the time to learn it. Between his C4, F4, and R4 material if you can not train a QB then you just are not trying.

The trick with 3 man fronts is you do not know where the pressure comes from as a QB. You think a guy is coming and he is dropping. You bring 4 weak or some other type of thing. Very few 3 man front teams bring only 3. The trick is you do not know where 4 is coming from. They are going to bring 4 or get the ball slammed down their throat.

7 tech and a 1 tech weak and why pull toward the 7? Also the center has an easier time blocking back on a 1 then a 3.

OC that get messed by all the bounce by backers are either in the gun or need to look at things. If a team wants to bounce backer then get undercenter and run on quick counts at them. It cuts down on the bouncing because you catch them between it. It is all window dressing much like DC will tell you motion and shifts are smoke and mirrors.

Four verts works against just about any coverage depending on how it is taught. If taught correclt you can run it against all coverages. There is a reason most teams run it and it is not because they want to throw deep. Cov 3 you read the FS. Cov 2 you read play side safety. Cov 4 you hit the dig conversion off of it. Man you look for match ups.

A number of the defensive things brought up in this thread are against 5-6 man protection such as spread teams. If you are going to throw the ball you need more answers than 5-6 man protection either through scheme, protection of both.

Why line your DTs into the B gaps? That is almost like playing a bear front which is asking for a down a kick scheme. Now you teach them right like in a 46 you make it tough but still the offense has 3 on 3 with good odds. Now if those B gap players are stud then it is a different story.

[P.C.Defense]

Your qb is not reading the free safety in cov.3.. He can determine your coverage by how your secondary is aligned..But he's not sittin' back there reading the Free Saftey.

[phdballer]

I am not an offensive guy but should I ever become one the simpliest read for my QB if we are not sprinting out would be if we get a 1 safety look to read the weakside backer or slot defender. If we got a 2 safety look it would be the free safety. I would run the triple option but my base play would be the weakside iso, and weakside G.

[King Leonidas]

Well said Barrel! If you run cover 3 and you have 4 vertical you do read the free and look him off.

[P.C.Defense]

Well said Barrel! If you run cover 3 and you have 4 vertical you do read the free and look him off.

That is well said, We've established you look off the F on 4 verticles in cov.3(LOL) What are the qb reads on Smash, Slap, Cross, Smoke, Mesh? Alot more than just 4 verticles in the spread offense and that's EXACTLY what I've been saying. You can't just sit there in cov.3( as in staying the same) vs. spread.
SURE, I would run 4 verticles vs. a cov.3, that's the obvious thing to do.
It's obvious you can't defend 4 deep in a 3 deep zone.
That's why you can't sit there in a cov.3 vs. the spread and stay the same.

[phdballer]

I am not a big fan of cover 3 but I would think that a simple solution to 4 verticals is to have your flat defenders especially to the field pattern read. They have to jam #2 and rather than buzzing to the flat at the snap will let #2 or #3 take them to the flat. The Curl defender to that side has to run deep with #2 vertical to ensure that the throw has to be thrown over his head rather than on a line. The OLB to the field can actually play a buzz technique because that is a shorter throw and the inside backer to the boundary has to ensure that he walls #2 on any shallow crossing routes. Not always the answer as I am sure that regardless of what is called or how it is played there is a counter to beat it.

[barrel]

That is well said, We've established you look off the F on 4 verticles in cov.3(LOL) What are the qb reads on Smash, Slap, Cross, Smoke, Mesh? Alot more than just 4 verticles in the spread offense and that's EXACTLY what I've been saying. You can't just sit there in cov.3( as in staying the same) vs. spread.
SURE, I would run 4 verticles vs. a cov.3, that's the obvious thing to do.
It's obvious you can't defend 4 deep in a 3 deep zone.
That's why you can't sit there in a cov.3 vs. the spread and stay the same.

No one said that 4 verts was the only part of a spread or any passing offense. Who you read on a play (unless you teach throwing to grass like some Air Raid teams) is based off of concept and coverage.

In simplest form you read Smash by reading the corner but you have other parts to the concept. Now as far as Slap, and Smoke those are your terms. Mesh is fairly common though depending on who you talk to you have to say if you are talking Air Raid Mesh or Coverdale Mesh. Cross could be a shallow concept, NCAA cocnept or even Levels.

There are certain concepts that hold up against just about any coverage and there are some that are much better against others. This does not even take into account formations and the rest of the offense. Trinity is a great example of this.

[Navajo4life]

Why are people using the terms, "Slap, Smoke and Mesh" these are just things that confuse high school kids. I know that when I was playing high school football in the mid to late 80's, we did not have those big terms and I thought that we did ok playing the game...

[thought for today]

the double wing was made for smaller players up front, thats way you get so many double teams having the hogs up front just makes it better. what most teams do is try to get more players at the point of attack which is the wrong thing to do, you leave yourself open for the counter etc.. try this and see if it will work for you. play both def. guards in an inside shade (2I) tech. have them attack outward through the off. guards taking the off.with them opening the A gaps just enough for blitzing LBers in both A gaps ( the ball starts in the middle if both A gaps and it has to cross both A gaps to get to the point of attack) it leaves your outside player to play the counter your inside backers should be able to stop the trap and wedge while attack with the blitz It work well for me in Fla. with teams we played that used the double wing as while on the scout team against your own off. that ran the double wing ( 10 - 0 reg. season)

hmmmmmmm, then what do you do when they pitch it outside:eyeroll:

[thought for today]

hmmmmmmm, then what do you do when they pitch it outside:eyeroll:

gap down backer scheme, aim near armpit.

[redstorm]

In our area, Bell Co. runs Cover 3 about 95% of the time, we try to run cover 2,3 and Cover 4. Corbin runs alot of different coverages.

[barrel]

Why are people using the terms, "Slap, Smoke and Mesh" these are just things that confuse high school kids. I know that when I was playing high school football in the mid to late 80's, we did not have those big terms and I thought that we did ok playing the game...

Then how do you call pass plays?
Use a route tree?
Give each concept a number?
Call it by the name of the route ie slant, curl flat?
Give the the concept a name they can remember?

It is a way to communicate. The passing game has come along way in HS football since the 80s.

[bulldog42]

Why are people using the terms, "Slap, Smoke and Mesh" these are just things that confuse high school kids. I know that when I was playing high school football in the mid to late 80's, we did not have those big terms and I thought that we did ok playing the game...

The game has change A LOT since then and the coaching is WAY better. I played in the early 90's and it's a totally different ballgame than then too. It still comes down to blocking and tackling but coaches have gotten great at scheming matchups, outnumbering etc.

[P.C.Defense]

Those "Chuke" Lawrence co. teams ran the Belly to perfection. It would be hard-pressed to say who runs the Belly better, Those Chuke Williams Lawrence co. teams or Matney and Johnson Central now. Both are and were very good at it.

[bulldog42]

Those "Chuke" Lawrence co. teams ran the Belly to perfection. It would be hard-pressed to say who runs the Belly better, Those Chuke Williams Lawrence co. teams or Matney and Johnson Central now. Both are and were very good at it.

I had the opportunity to learn from Chuke at LC. The common thing with he and Coach Sphire was that they committed to what they did and practiced it to perfection! The common thing with Chuke + Matney was Bugs was the Oline coach. He is the one that just took the Powell Co job. He's a great guy! Those guys are all great at their craft!

[bigcoachallen]

Solution for stopping the double wing:

6-2 cover 2 (unless they can throw, then cover 1 or 3... depending on your DB/WR match-up). line up your 4 fasted down DTs and cut the OL before they get the chance to pull. No glory for the D line, but your LBs will have a field day! When I was @ Johnson Central, we beat Estill 44 - 10. We just took away the run, and they couldn't throw (back then)... game over!

[THE BIG DOG]

shotgun 4 wide

[P.C.Defense]

Solution for stopping the double wing:

6-2 cover 2 (unless they can throw, then cover 1 or 3... depending on your DB/WR match-up). line up your 4 fasted down DTs and cut the OL before they get the chance to pull. No glory for the D line, but your LBs will have a field day! When I was @ Johnson Central, we beat Estill 44 - 10. We just took away the run, and they couldn't throw (back then)... game over!

Hey Bigcoach,
How did you run a 6-2-cov.2? We agree 6 D-linemen(counting DE's),
We agree Sam&Mike which equals 8. We agree 2 corners and 1 safety in a 6-2 Base. Now the 8 in the box don't change but what do you do with your unaccounted for secondary player? If you go to a cov.2 what do you do with your odd man out in the secondary? Do you mean a 6-3 cov.2?