[thecavemaster]

Bottom Line: If you believe the Bible is true, then homosexualality is Wrong. If you don't believe the Bible is the true word of God, then this debate is over. The Bible tells you in plain words that it is an abomination to God.

According to the "word of god," gossip is wrong, hoarding up money is wrong, tv preachers who use "faith" to get weak willed people's money is wrong. What does any of that have to do with "equal protection under the law"?

[blitz43]

Weak arguement.

The Bible wasn't written by who you think it was written by.

Sorry to break it to you.

The Bible is God's word. Read it and see what it says. So far, the world has went "exactly" like the Bible says it would. It also says that towards the end time, the world would be like it was during Noah's day....Homosexuality included. Homosexualality is wrong but so is telling lies, murder, rape, etc. Their all wrong. So, 2 men or women getting married would be wrong also. It doesn't matter what the Christians say on here. Your gonna believe what you want to, even if it is wrong. I accepted the Lord into my life in 93'. I am not saying that I don't sin. I make mistakes everyday. Thing is though, as soon as I mess up, the Spirit of God condemns me and I ask forgivness at that very min. Jesus give me that right when He died on the cross. I don't mean to sound mean. I believe God will guide you all the way. However, we have to use a little common sense too. You "know" that sleeping with another man is wrong just as stealing something that isn't yours is wrong also. Peace. I am done posting on this subject. The Bible plainly tells me how it's gonna end.

[thecavemaster]

The Bible is God's word. Read it and see what it says. So far, the world has went "exactly" like the Bible says it would. It also says that towards the end time, the world would be like it was during Noah's day....Homosexuality included. Homosexualality is wrong but so is telling lies, murder, rape, etc. Their all wrong. So, 2 men or women getting married would be wrong also. It doesn't matter what the Christians say on here. Your gonna believe what you want to, even if it is wrong. I accepted the Lord into my life in 93'. I am not saying that I don't sin. I make mistakes everyday. Thing is though, as soon as I mess up, the Spirit of God condemns me and I ask forgivness at that very min. Jesus give me that right when He died on the cross. I don't mean to sound mean. I believe God will guide you all the way. However, we have to use a little common sense too. You "know" that sleeping with another man is wrong just as stealing something that isn't yours is wrong also. Peace. I am done posting on this subject. The Bible plainly tells me how it's gonna end.

For the umpteenth time... the issue at hand is not whether or not homosexuality if "right" or "wrong." Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice in a democracy. It is not a "right" choice in the majority of Christian denominations. The majority, however, Christian or Moslem or Hindu or Jewish, cannot usurp the Equal Protection Clause of the United States Constitution. There are "christians" who believe Noah cursed his son, and thereby all the dark skinned peoples of the earth. This belief has no bearing whatsoever on the rights of dark skinned peoples in the United States of America, a constitutional democracy.

[DevilsWin]

I think this little comedy skit speaks to this issue.


[YOUTUBE="Prop 8 * The Musical *"]O5-fZKg4Uj4[/YOUTUBE]

[cheerdad]

It isn't going to happen. Unless they can somehow pass an amendment which will never happen, gays will never have the right to marry.

I said that I was done with this thread, but I have changed my mind. NOW...this post is concerning different comments, not just the one quoted.

First, I want to address the comment made earlier about "coming out of the closet". Your definition of "coming out of the closet" is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being right. To begin with, there should be no reason for a gay person to have to be in the closet!! The reason why they are is because of people like you; people who set upon there throne and look down and judge, people who hate them and actually kill them because they know or assume that they are gay, who ridicule them, call them names, people who they assume are to be gay are taken out and beaten beyond identity...but the one thing you don't see is, that they are different to you, they are not different in their eyes. The eat, walk breath, work, shop, and even love...but they can't show their love openly for the fear of the above stated. Now, put yourself in those shoes.

ALSO...Christians, in the early days, were in the closet, (by your definition) because if certain people knew they were Christians, they would have been stoned to death, thrown in the lions den...this is in the Bible. And these people would sneak and have their worship services, they would congregate in secret...they lived a secret life, by your definition, then they were in the closet.....because they were scared for their lives, just as today for so many gay people...they are scared for their lives. Even in today, there are certain parts of this world that if you are a Christian, and it is found out, you will be killed, so these people "stay in the closet". And you know what...I can just about guarantee you that there is someone on your side of the family that is gay and in the closet because of YOU!!! And it's evident that you probably have not even talked to or even know someone who is gay and really set down with them and talked to them (without degrading, insulting, bashing the Bible over the head) and really understand what it is like to be gay and have to live in a community, town, city, state and country with people like you. Until you get a phone call from a friend (who was 16 at the time) who is crying out for help, for understanding, for peace because his PARENTS just kicked him out of the house because he went to them to talk to them and tell them that he was gay, the only people in this world who is suppose to love him unconditionally, and his father AND mother beats him (whom are pastors) until he has to go to the hospital because he has 6 broken ribs, 2 broken arms, a broken nose, a concusion, and was in a coma for almost 3 weeks...DO NOT set there, behind the safety of your computer screen and talk about something that YOU don't EVEN have a clue or a reasonable understanding what it is like for a gay person in this country!!!!!!! This is NOT an isolated experience, this happens DAILY...TODAY in our society.......or get this.....when a bunch of so called Christians take a boy that is in their Sunday School class, on a Sunday aftenoon, AFTER church, where the pastor got up in the pulpit and preached against homosexuality.....tied him to the bumper of a truck by his genitals, and dragged him down a country dirt road until he was dead.......and YOU have to wonder why some gay men/women stay in the closet? I can sit here and type out story after story after story about what has happened to so many gay people, and 75% of the time, YES....75%...it has come from people in our Churches on the physical, mental and emotional ABUSE that is thrown at them. And the reason I am able to do this is because I use to work for a shelter that specificially was for gay people to come to for safety because they could NOT turn to their parents, guardians or their CHURCH for safety!!!!! Now that my friend is SAD and why so many gay people are in the closet.
:mad:

When you use the word abomination...I hope you are not eating shrimp and lobster because they don't have fins and scales, I hope that you are not wearing a cotton/polyester blend shirt because that is made of two different materials, I hope you are not eating steak because a cow chews it's cud...and this list goes on and on in the Old Testament where these things are ALSO an abomination.

As far as gay marriage...IT IS ALREADY HAPPENING!!!! In Vermont, it's called a Civil Union and in Massachusettes, it's called MARRIAGE!!!!! Gay couples have the SAME STATE RIGHTS as heterosexual couples...including TAX benefits, the ability to make decisions on their partners behalf....every state level benefit that a heterosexual couple has, so does the gay couple.


...this is the reason why I said that I was not going to post anymore to this thread because of some peoples ignorance (not calling you ignorant) about the homosexuality community. Most of you in this thread don't EVEN have a clue what it is like to live as a gay person and yet, you set here, time after time after time, and write as though you KNOW EVERYTHING about it. I would LOVE to take some of you out of your world to some places to see and hear and meet people and for your to listen to their stories and if the God you proclaim is in your heart, then you WOULD change your views on homosexuals...if you didn't then God is NOT in your life as He should be!!!!

[blitz43]

The reason most people don't accept it...cause it is just plain gross.

[cheerdad]

The reason most people don't accept it...cause it is just plain gross.

Well see....again, that's just your opinion. To them, hetero is gross. And they don't care if you accept it or not...they don't have the problem with acceptance, it's just some people like you that have the problem. So, bottom line is...being gay isn't a problem to the gay community, just people like you.

[thecavemaster]

The reason most people don't accept it...cause it is just plain gross.

Many people thought it "gross" to drink from the same fountain as a black person. I don't think "gross" or "not gross" has much to do with the Equal Protection Clause.

[DevilsWin]

The reason most people don't accept it...cause it is just plain gross.

This juvenile, hateful, elitist, anti-semetic and ignorant!

[blitz43]

You guys are in a league of your own. It will never be excepted. I don't think it is remotely ok. The Bible says judge a tree by the fruit it bears & shoot, 2 homosexuals can't even bear fruit...naturally. It is wrong and a marrige, civil union, or whatever you want to call it is no good.

[blitz43]

Many people thought it "gross" to drink from the same fountain as a black person. I don't think "gross" or "not gross" has much to do with the Equal Protection Clause.

This has "nothing" to do with black and white. I am sure it will pass cause the Bible says that the world will head in this direction. Which according to the Bible, is wrong. Again, if you believe the Bible, you will agree this is wrong. If you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, then this topic is over.

[Beetle01]

I said that I was done with this thread, but I have changed my mind. NOW...this post is concerning different comments, not just the one quoted.

First, I want to address the comment made earlier about "coming out of the closet". Your definition of "coming out of the closet" is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being right. To begin with, there should be no reason for a gay person to have to be in the closet!! The reason why they are is because of people like you; people who set upon there throne and look down and judge, people who hate them and actually kill them because they know or assume that they are gay, who ridicule them, call them names, people who they assume are to be gay are taken out and beaten beyond identity...but the one thing you don't see is, that they are different to you, they are not different in their eyes. The eat, walk breath, work, shop, and even love...but they can't show their love openly for the fear of the above stated. Now, put yourself in those shoes.

SO apparently i sit upon a throne and judge people? I kill people and beat people beyond recognition? Who is the ignorant one here?

I could care less what any gay person does, except for having the right to marriage. I have my right to that opinion. I can voice it, it is how I feel. To "me" marriage is a religous ceremony. Other than that I couldnt care less what they do.

Gay marriage rights to not fall under equal protection, because what are gays needing to be protected from when it comes to marriage? Unless they can proove that marriage historically has not been between a man and a woman they are fighting a losing battle.

Answer one question for me.
In America, where do we get our marital cermonies and ideas from? Religion.

Homosexuality is not a religion.
Homosexuality is not protected under the constitution.
Like I said before, if they can convince congress and 37 states to ratify an amendment guaranteeing the right to gay marriage, then they will be good to go and marry whoever they want. Until then, there's no need for discussion of this subject.

[DevilsWin]

You guys are in a league of your own. It will never be excepted. I don't think it is remotely ok. The Bible says judge a tree by the fruit it bears & shoot, 2 homosexuals can't even bear fruit...naturally. It is wrong and a marrige, civil union, or whatever you want to call it is no good.

It's "Accepted".

[DevilsWin]

This has "nothing" to do with black and white. I am sure it will pass cause the Bible says that the world will head in this direction. Which according to the Bible, is wrong. Again, if you believe the Bible, you will agree this is wrong. If you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, then this topic is over.

So you're against eating shrimp too then huh? As well as crab, beef etc.

[DevilsWin]

SO apparently i sit upon a throne and judge people? I kill people and beat people beyond recognition? Who is the ignorant one here?

I could care less what any gay person does, except for having the right to marriage. I have my right to that opinion. I can voice it, it is how I feel. To "me" marriage is a religous ceremony. Other than that I couldnt care less what they do.

Gay marriage rights to not fall under equal protection, because what are gays needing to be protected from when it comes to marriage? Unless they can proove that marriage historically has not been between a man and a woman they are fighting a losing battle.

Answer one question for me.
In America, where do we get our marital cermonies and ideas from? Religion.

Homosexuality is not a religion.
Homosexuality is not protected under the constitution.
Like I said before, if they can convince congress and 37 states to ratify an amendment guaranteeing the right to gay marriage, then they will be good to go and marry whoever they want. Until then, there's no need for discussion of this subject.

How about the Right to Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness?

Doesn't the Constitution and the Bill of Rights cover the area in question?

BTW how does Gay Marriage effect you in anyway?

[thecavemaster]

If the question being posed is this: "Does a civil union/marriage between two homosexuals appear to be "wrong" in the Judaeo-Christian tradition?" then the answer would be yes to an overwhelming majority of those who believe in that tradition. However, that is not the question posed. We have a group of citizens (in the minority) who seek to have their relationships recognized by the State in such a way as to have access to certain benefits given to individuals who have their relationships recognized by the State. I think the Equal Protection Clause should extend this far.

[cheerdad]

SO apparently i sit upon a throne and judge people? I kill people and beat people beyond recognition? Who is the ignorant one here?

I could care less what any gay person does, except for having the right to marriage. I have my right to that opinion. I can voice it, it is how I feel. To "me" marriage is a religous ceremony. Other than that I couldnt care less what they do.

Gay marriage rights to not fall under equal protection, because what are gays needing to be protected from when it comes to marriage? Unless they can proove that marriage historically has not been between a man and a woman they are fighting a losing battle.

Answer one question for me.
In America, where do we get our marital cermonies and ideas from? Religion.

Homosexuality is not a religion.
Homosexuality is not protected under the constitution.
Like I said before, if they can convince congress and 37 states to ratify an amendment guaranteeing the right to gay marriage, then they will be good to go and marry whoever they want. Until then, there's no need for discussion of this subject.

First off...if you will go back and read, I said ignorance (and I am not calling your ignorant), which who just called me ignorant and I am far from that!!!!! And to answer your question...no, I would hope you don't personally kill gay people, but it is people like you that do or drive gay people to suicide. And you are right, you are right to have your opinion, but just remember, if that opinion is directed at the wrong person at the wrong time, you could also be a murderer.

You say that marriage is a religious ceremony....what about the scores of people that get married in Vegas, Pigeon Forge/Gaitlinburg, and in the presence of a justice of the peace...there's nothing remotely religious about these ceremonies, so by your words, these marriages should not even happen or be legal either....correct??? And if it's a religious event, then why should non-believers have the right to get married? Why is it ok for Atheist to get married, or people that are Agnostic...see, your argument makes no sense, not only to me, but to more people than your really realize. And as the question was directed at you earlier...how does 2 people of the same sex getting married affect you? It doesn't....just as you marrying someone of the opposite sex don't affect anyone.

And furthermore...yes, I do feel that you are setting upon your throne and judging because you are implying that I am not a Christian because I do not believe as you or interpret the scripture as you, that does not make me any less of a Christian than you. Because I have a deeper understanding and a more philosophical understanding of the scripture than you doesn't mean that I think you are less than a Christian than I am.

[cheerdad]

This has "nothing" to do with black and white. I am sure it will pass cause the Bible says that the world will head in this direction. Which according to the Bible, is wrong. Again, if you believe the Bible, you will agree this is wrong. If you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, then this topic is over.

And yes, this statement is a good example...back in that time, it was the law that a white person could not marry a black person...surely you know the history behind how white people treated black people, and going back even further now white people treated native Americans. And the same scripture that Christians are using against the homosexual are practically the same ones used agains black people. You can't deny it, because it's is in all of our history books.

[cheerdad]

So you're against eating shrimp too then huh? As well as crab, beef etc.

Hey Devilswin...as you noticed as I did...he didn't say ANYTHING about that did he? Just another example how most Christians pick and choose scripture to fit their views.

[slugger35]

Sorry for the long post, but covering a lot of "comments" here.

Shamingly, I have just read the entire Constitution of the United States, for the first time, yea, I know the Preamble, but had never read the Constitution. I think that this is something that everyone in here should read, because, after reading this, I am convinced without a doubt that the whole homosexuality issue is soley based upon religious beliefs.

Have you ever wondered why there are so many different denominations in the United States? The Baptist do not believe as the Methodist, the Methodist do not believe and the Church of Christ, and this goes on and on. To those of you that have stated your agreement or disagreement against homosexuals, do you believe that your denomination/belief will be the only people in Heaven? or **** as far as that goes. I do believe that it is John where it says, paraphrasing here, but "Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved". I think that includes EVERYBODY!!!

To defend their assertion that God condemns homosexuals, people always use small passages from the Bible to prove their point. Using the Bible in this manner is destructive. Instead of "exegesis" which involves examining the history of scripture to find out what it means and how it applies to us, "eisegesis" approaches scripture with a preconceived idea of what you will find there. It is abuse of scripture.
In eisegesis you search the Book until you find a passage you think applies and use it as your "proof" that God backs you up. You isolate that phrase or passage, take it out of context and improperly use it to back up your argument. It's like a friend taking a sentence or phrase out of a letter you wrote and using it to represent what you believe as a whole. It's easy to be taken out of context. You wouldn't want your views represented that way, but that's how the ideas and beliefs of the Bible's authors are presented everyday!

Thankfully, there are states and cities and companies who have deemed it policy to allow same sex couples to have insurance covereage as a heterosexual married couple. My hat is off to those entities. So, does that mean that those of you who feel the homosexuals do not have the right to have this type of insurance going to boycott these companies, move out of your state and or city??? As strongly as you have made your point in here about how you feel about homosexuals, I would make that ULTIMATE STAND and really think about it. You know, you have that right. And isn't it amazing that YOU have that right???

And in conclusion, God tells all people who have felt alienated because of the pain of prejudice and hatred, "in Christ Jesus, you who once were far away have been brought near... You are no longer strangers, foreigners or aliens, but fellow citizens with all God's people." (Ephesians 2:11-22)
Finally, God reminds us that no matter what our orientation is, or what our beliefs are on homosexuality, we need to remember that "God is love". (I John 4). We need to follow the law of love: "LOVE GOD, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF, LOVE ONE ANOTHER!" (Lev. 19:18, Matt 19:19, Mark 12:31, 33, Luke 10:27, John 15:12, 17, Romans 12:9-10, Galatians 5:14, James 2:8)

If you don't believe that the Bible speaks against homosexual behavior in the old testament then maybe you should look in the new. Try Romans ch.1 verses 24 through 28 and it is made very clear. The only way to deny it is to try to twist it to suit you. We are supposed to conform to the word of God rather than twist it to benefit our situation. No matter how hard you try, no one can live up to God's word. We all fall short. That is why God gave his son to die in our place. He who knew no sin became sin for us. It is a dangerous thing to tell people that homosexuality is not a sin just as it would be to tell people that it is not a sin to lie, committ adultry and so on. Because for a person to get forgiveness they must first be willing to admit that they are wrong. The answer is to let them know that it is sinful and that God loves them and will forgive them and give them strength to overcome just as he does the liar, adulter, murderer and so on. Let us not forget that all of us have sinned and come short of the glory of God therefor God offered his own son for all who would accept his rightousness and not their own.

[cheerdad]

If you don't believe that the Bible speaks against homosexual behavior in the old testament then maybe you should look in the new. Try Romans ch.1 verses 24 through 28 and it is made very clear. The only way to deny it is to try to twist it to suit you. We are supposed to conform to the word of God rather than twist it to benefit our situation. No matter how hard you try, no one can live up to God's word. We all fall short. That is why God gave his son to die in our place. He who knew no sin became sin for us. It is a dangerous thing to tell people that homosexuality is not a sin just as it would be to tell people that it is not a sin to lie, committ adultry and so on. Because for a person to get forgiveness they must first be willing to admit that they are wrong. The answer is to let them know that it is sinful and that God loves them and will forgive them and give them strength to overcome just as he does the liar, adulter, murderer and so on. Let us not forget that all of us have sinned and come short of the glory of God therefor God offered his own son for all who would accept his rightousness and not their own.

Well, slugger35, if you had read ALL of the previous post instead of picking and choosing, you would have read that Romans 1 had already been covered. Below is the entire post concerning Romans 1. It is also dangerous to think that what you believe is the ONLY way to believe. I once believed as some of you, but once I started studying the Greek and Hebrew of the original text, it made me realized that I had to start studying on my own.

Romans 1:26 and 27, at first glance, appears to condemn gay and lesbian activity. Paul criticizes sexual activity which is against a person's nature or disposition. But in Greek society of the time, homosexuality and bisexuality was regarded as a natural activity for some people. Thus Paul might have been criticizing heterosexuals who were engaged in homosexual activities against their nature. He might not be referring to homosexuals or bisexuals at all.
The verses preceding 26 might indicate that he was referring to sexual acts associated with idol worship. The verse is too vague to be interpreted as a blanket prohibition of all same-sex activities.

This passage has been used by some Christians to make an issue over how "unrighteous" and sinful homosexuals are. In fact, it has been used to support the view that AIDS is the "penalty of their error which was due." What is fascinating about this kind of application is that it is totally at odds with what, I believe, Paul was really saying. IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF ROMANS CHAPTER ONE YOU MUST READ ROMANS CHAPTERS ONE THROUGH THREE. The outline is as follows:
I. The Gospel is for EVERYONE, Jews and Gentiles. (1:16)
II. Why? Because God's wrath is against ALL unrighteousness. (verse 18).
II. The Gentiles need the Gospel. (1:28-32) The examples of their "uncleanness" include idolatry and homosexual acts which are either connected to or resulting from idolatry.
III. But the Jews are just as unrighteous as the Gentiles. (2:3)
IV. "All have sinned" and are "justified (made right with God) FREELY by God's grace (unearned love) through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ." (3:23-24)
While Paul is certainly not favorable toward the homosexual acts that he is writing about it is interesting to note that Paul classifies them "unclean" which is not necessarily a "moral" precept. (According to the Holiness Code lobsters and shrimp are "unclean" also.) He may be pointing out that though the Jews are different than the Gentiles in that they are ritually "clean" (according to the Old Covenant) they are still just as much in need of the grace of the New Covenant

Let's look at some of the verses in this section:
Verse 27b "And receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." Is Paul here saying that those who committed homosexual acts were punished in some physical way...as in venereal disease? Or could "uncleanness," being cut off from the Old Hebrew Covenant, be the penalty of the Gentile's error?

28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to adebased mind, to do those things which are not fitting..." People often take this to mean one of the following things:

• Since homosexuals didn't retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind.
  
• Since the Gentiles were idolatrous God gave them over to a debased mind of homosexuality. However, I believe that Paul was saying the following:
  
• "Since the Gentiles did not retain God in their knowledge God gave them over to a debased mind. The debased mind is NOT homosexuality but a mind that is centered on unrighteousness, hence the listing of what the Gentile mind is full of in verse 29.
  
• 29-32 This list of "unrighteousness" is being applied to all Gentiles, not Gentiles that commit homosexual sex acts. It is the Gentiles "who are worthy of death." These verses are really just an exposition of verse 18.
  
• 26-27 Another interesting point to consider is that people often use verses 26-27 to prove that Paul used an argument from "nature" to prove that homosexual activity was wrong. However that kind of usage of the word "nature" is highly unlikely as Paul usually uses the word "nature" or "natural" to mean not what "Mother Nature" does but instead he means "the previously accepted common usage". Nature is not a great teacher about ethics and humans are nowhere called in scripture to emulate it. What is more, homosexual activity DOES go on in the animal world.

It must be remembered also that Paul was referring to homosexual ACTS, not homosexuals. AND NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HOMOSEXUAL ACTS PAUL WAS TALKING ABOUT... NO ONE KNOWS THE BACKGROUND... We must ask ourselves "what type of homosexual acts was Paul talking about?" Was he talking exclusively about homosexual acts connected with idolatry? (Perhaps that was the only kind of homosexual activity he was familiar with.) Was he talking about pederasty? Was he talking about homosexual acts committed with slaves? Was he talking about people of heterosexual orientation committing homosexual acts? Just exactly what type of homosexual acts was he concerned with? Do people have the right to just ASSUME that these verses were a blanket condemnation of homosexual sex in every context?
In my personal opinion Paul was referring to same sex sexual acts committed in idolatrous worship by people he regarded as heterosexual. Even the most conservative theologian can only give their opinion as to what type of same sex acts Paul was referring to. No one can state that God clearly condemns all homosexuality activity based upon these verses. It is just too vague.
As for me, based on the context of Paul's writing in Romans chapters 1-3 I choose to believe that God's New Covenant of grace embraces those who believe in Jesus; being a Jew doesn't make you better than a Gentile; being a heterosexual doesn't make you any better than a homosexual. Romans chapters one through three strike at the very heart of self-righteous pride. It is amazing that some Christians continue to lord their own sense of righteousness over gays and lesbians as if their heterosexual sex acts make them somehow better, or less in need of grace. We are all in need of grace and we ALL have that grace in Jesus Christ.

[ImagineThat!]

If you don't believe that the Bible speaks against homosexual behavior in the old testament then maybe you should look in the new. Try Romans ch.1 verses 24 through 28 and it is made very clear. The only way to deny it is to try to twist it to suit you. We are supposed to conform to the word of God rather than twist it to benefit our situation. No matter how hard you try, no one can live up to God's word. We all fall short. That is why God gave his son to die in our place. He who knew no sin became sin for us. It is a dangerous thing to tell people that homosexuality is not a sin just as it would be to tell people that it is not a sin to lie, committ adultry and so on. Because for a person to get forgiveness they must first be willing to admit that they are wrong. The answer is to let them know that it is sinful and that God loves them and will forgive them and give them strength to overcome just as he does the liar, adulter, murderer and so on. Let us not forget that all of us have sinned and come short of the glory of God therefor God offered his own son for all who would accept his rightousness and not their own.

FINALLY! Someone talking with some sense. This the best post I have read on this topic.

[ImagineThat!]

So you're against eating shrimp too then huh? As well as crab, beef etc.

If the Bible says it, then plain and simple it's the truth.

[ImagineThat!]

Hey Devilswin...as you noticed as I did...he didn't say ANYTHING about that did he? Just another example how most Christians pick and choose scripture to fit their views.

Exactly, just like everyone one here trying to change God's word to say that homosexuality is acceptable in God's eyes.

[ImagineThat!]

First off...if you will go back and read, I said ignorance (and I am not calling your ignorant), which who just called me ignorant and I am far from that!!!!! And to answer your question...no, I would hope you don't personally kill gay people, but it is people like you that do or drive gay people to suicide. And you are right, you are right to have your opinion, but just remember, if that opinion is directed at the wrong person at the wrong time, you could also be a murderer.

You say that marriage is a religious ceremony....what about the scores of people that get married in Vegas, Pigeon Forge/Gaitlinburg, and in the presence of a justice of the peace...there's nothing remotely religious about these ceremonies, so by your words, these marriages should not even happen or be legal either....correct??? And if it's a religious event, then why should non-believers have the right to get married? Why is it ok for Atheist to get married, or people that are Agnostic...see, your argument makes no sense, not only to me, but to more people than your really realize. And as the question was directed at you earlier...how does 2 people of the same sex getting married affect you? It doesn't....just as you marrying someone of the opposite sex don't affect anyone.

And furthermore...yes, I do feel that you are setting upon your throne and judging because you are implying that I am not a Christian because I do not believe as you or interpret the scripture as you, that does not make me any less of a Christian than you. Because I have a deeper understanding and a more philosophical understanding of the scripture than you doesn't mean that I think you are less than a Christian than I am.

Now, that's a matter of oppinion, isn't it!

[thecavemaster]

Exactly, just like everyone one here trying to change God's word to say that homosexuality is acceptable in God's eyes.

In my view, the "god" factor is left for theologians and practitioners of religion to decide: it is a matter of Constitutional law, a civil matter, a matter of equal protection. My view does not concern itself with "god's word." It neither affirms nor denies acceptability of the practice of gay marriage; it affirms the principle of equal protection under the law in this democracy.

[slugger35]

Well, slugger35, if you had read ALL of the previous post instead of picking and choosing, you would have read that Romans 1 had already been covered. Below is the entire post concerning Romans 1. It is also dangerous to think that what you believe is the ONLY way to believe. I once believed as some of you, but once I started studying the Greek and Hebrew of the original text, it made me realized that I had to start studying on my own.

Romans 1:26 and 27, at first glance, appears to condemn gay and lesbian activity. Paul criticizes sexual activity which is against a person's nature or disposition. But in Greek society of the time, homosexuality and bisexuality was regarded as a natural activity for some people. Thus Paul might have been criticizing heterosexuals who were engaged in homosexual activities against their nature. He might not be referring to homosexuals or bisexuals at all.
The verses preceding 26 might indicate that he was referring to sexual acts associated with idol worship. The verse is too vague to be interpreted as a blanket prohibition of all same-sex activities.

This passage has been used by some Christians to make an issue over how "unrighteous" and sinful homosexuals are. In fact, it has been used to support the view that AIDS is the "penalty of their error which was due." What is fascinating about this kind of application is that it is totally at odds with what, I believe, Paul was really saying. IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF ROMANS CHAPTER ONE YOU MUST READ ROMANS CHAPTERS ONE THROUGH THREE. The outline is as follows:
I. The Gospel is for EVERYONE, Jews and Gentiles. (1:16)
II. Why? Because God's wrath is against ALL unrighteousness. (verse 18).
II. The Gentiles need the Gospel. (1:28-32) The examples of their "uncleanness" include idolatry and homosexual acts which are either connected to or resulting from idolatry.
III. But the Jews are just as unrighteous as the Gentiles. (2:3)
IV. "All have sinned" and are "justified (made right with God) FREELY by God's grace (unearned love) through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ." (3:23-24)
While Paul is certainly not favorable toward the homosexual acts that he is writing about it is interesting to note that Paul classifies them "unclean" which is not necessarily a "moral" precept. (According to the Holiness Code lobsters and shrimp are "unclean" also.) He may be pointing out that though the Jews are different than the Gentiles in that they are ritually "clean" (according to the Old Covenant) they are still just as much in need of the grace of the New Covenant

Let's look at some of the verses in this section:
Verse 27b "And receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." Is Paul here saying that those who committed homosexual acts were punished in some physical way...as in venereal disease? Or could "uncleanness," being cut off from the Old Hebrew Covenant, be the penalty of the Gentile's error?

28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to adebased mind, to do those things which are not fitting..." People often take this to mean one of the following things:

• Since homosexuals didn't retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind.
  
• Since the Gentiles were idolatrous God gave them over to a debased mind of homosexuality. However, I believe that Paul was saying the following:
  
• "Since the Gentiles did not retain God in their knowledge God gave them over to a debased mind. The debased mind is NOT homosexuality but a mind that is centered on unrighteousness, hence the listing of what the Gentile mind is full of in verse 29.
  
• 29-32 This list of "unrighteousness" is being applied to all Gentiles, not Gentiles that commit homosexual sex acts. It is the Gentiles "who are worthy of death." These verses are really just an exposition of verse 18.
  
• 26-27 Another interesting point to consider is that people often use verses 26-27 to prove that Paul used an argument from "nature" to prove that homosexual activity was wrong. However that kind of usage of the word "nature" is highly unlikely as Paul usually uses the word "nature" or "natural" to mean not what "Mother Nature" does but instead he means "the previously accepted common usage". Nature is not a great teacher about ethics and humans are nowhere called in scripture to emulate it. What is more, homosexual activity DOES go on in the animal world.

It must be remembered also that Paul was referring to homosexual ACTS, not homosexuals. AND NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HOMOSEXUAL ACTS PAUL WAS TALKING ABOUT... NO ONE KNOWS THE BACKGROUND... We must ask ourselves "what type of homosexual acts was Paul talking about?" Was he talking exclusively about homosexual acts connected with idolatry? (Perhaps that was the only kind of homosexual activity he was familiar with.) Was he talking about pederasty? Was he talking about homosexual acts committed with slaves? Was he talking about people of heterosexual orientation committing homosexual acts? Just exactly what type of homosexual acts was he concerned with? Do people have the right to just ASSUME that these verses were a blanket condemnation of homosexual sex in every context?
In my personal opinion Paul was referring to same sex sexual acts committed in idolatrous worship by people he regarded as heterosexual. Even the most conservative theologian can only give their opinion as to what type of same sex acts Paul was referring to. No one can state that God clearly condemns all homosexuality activity based upon these verses. It is just too vague.
As for me, based on the context of Paul's writing in Romans chapters 1-3 I choose to believe that God's New Covenant of grace embraces those who believe in Jesus; being a Jew doesn't make you better than a Gentile; being a heterosexual doesn't make you any better than a homosexual. Romans chapters one through three strike at the very heart of self-righteous pride. It is amazing that some Christians continue to lord their own sense of righteousness over gays and lesbians as if their heterosexual sex acts make them somehow better, or less in need of grace. We are all in need of grace and we ALL have that grace in Jesus Christ.

I don't know how God could have been any clearer on this subject. Romans 1;27'' And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. ''This is very plain and easy to understand. We don't need anyone to try to explain it away. I know that we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves les any man should boast. I have known for 20 years or more the definition of grace and I said in my earlier post that we must accept the rightousness of christ and not our own because in ourselves we have none. In order to receive the grace of God we must admit our sinfulness and it doesn't help people when you try to explain away or justify their sin. The great thing is that the grace is able to reach everyone who will admit, confess their sinfulness and believe that the Blood of Christ can and will cleanse them from their sin and that is their only hope. Everyone can be saved if they will be. That includes the homosexual as well. Once a person is saved then God will deal with them and correct them just as he does all of his children. That is why I say it does no one any good to justify themselves or to water down The Word of God or to try to convince me that God didn't really mean what he said in his word. I believe that God said that his word was forever settled in heaven and that is good enough for me. If we are honest we would all admit that God's word shows all of us how sinful we are and why we need the grace of God which he provides through his son.

[cheerdad]

Well, I guess it's a good thing that there are so many denominations in this country, because none of them believe the same way as each other. What you may consider watered-down may not be so to others. When God speaks to someone and lays a message upon their heart, who are you to say that it is watered down or that it's not from God? But, you are right in a lot that you said in your post, although, as noted, we do disagree upon the view of gays and gay marriage. But you know, that is what makes it so wonderful to live in this country and we have the ability to disagree...isn't it wonderful that you have that ability???

But, I do have a question...since we are taking God's word literally, word for word...why doesn't the Bible say anything about women who are gay? Why didn't Jesus himself say anything about homosexuals? Jesus says alot about liars, whoremongers, theives, murderers, rapists, people who judge and on and on, but NEVER about a homosexual?

[cheerdad]

In my view, the "god" factor is left for theologians and practitioners of religion to decide: it is a matter of Constitutional law, a civil matter, a matter of equal protection. My view does not concern itself with "god's word." It neither affirms nor denies acceptability of the practice of gay marriage; it affirms the principle of equal protection under the law in this democracy.

And that is true cavemaster....but, most people believe that the constitution is based upon religion and thus bring religion as their bases upon this subject. Now, don't get me wrong, I am a very spriitual person, I believe in the Trinity, God's Grace and Salvation, but I do not believe that the constitution and religion go hand in hand.

[blitz43]

So you're against eating shrimp too then huh? As well as crab, beef etc.

No! The Jewish people are the ones that don't eat that stuff. I had a nice piece of beef, & shrimp last night. It was quite tasteful.